In ,
Algeria Horan typed:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 13:32:59 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The DEP and the like have lots more money to spend on lawyers
than you do.

I called the SCC county planning office.
(408) 299-5770x0

The operator said to call "land development", Jess, but he wasn't in
when I called earlier today. So I left a message.

When he gets back to me, I'll let you know what they say.

If it were me, and all I was going to do was gradually add clean fill dirt
along the pedestrian side of the roadway to make it wider and safer for
pedestrians, I don't think that I would call anyone and ask for permission
first. I do know that I should, and presumably that would be the safest
approach.

But, I would be concerned that I would be asking a question that I do not
want to know the answer to. I would be concerned that simply by asking I
would then end up being subjected to a whole big permit and approval
process, and constant oversight of the process by regulators over the years
as I gradually had people dumping the clean fill dirt there. I would be
more comfortable in this type of situation just doing what I want to do and
waiting to see if anyone complained or had any issue with what I was doing.

I know that is not what most people here would recommend, but that's what I
would do -- even in California (I live on the opposite coast).

However, if I did call and ask first (as you already did, and for good
reason), I would be sure to phrase it as just adding some clean fill dirt
along the side of the pedestrian side of the roadway to make it wider and
safer for pedestrians. I definitely would not use any terms like "fill in
or partially fill the hollow" etc. I would just keep it as widening the
pedestrian roadway.

And, speaking of roadways...., do you own the roadway? Is it your own
private road on only your land? Or, is it some type of common roadway on
county or shared land etc? And, if you don't own the roadway outright and
entirely on your own land, how wide is the roadway or roadway easement or
right of way? If you put clean fill dirt along the side of the existing
roadway, would part of it be going onto the existing right of way etc? I am
just curious and trying to picture what you have right now.

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:05:48 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,
Algeria Horan typed:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 13:32:59 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The DEP and the like have lots more money to spend on lawyers
than you do.

I called the SCC county planning office.
(408) 299-5770x0

The operator said to call "land development", Jess, but he wasn't in
when I called earlier today. So I left a message.

When he gets back to me, I'll let you know what they say.

If it were me, and all I was going to do was gradually add clean fill dirt
along the pedestrian side of the roadway to make it wider and safer for
pedestrians, I don't think that I would call anyone and ask for permission
first. I do know that I should, and presumably that would be the safest
approach.

But, I would be concerned that I would be asking a question that I do not
want to know the answer to. I would be concerned that simply by asking I
would then end up being subjected to a whole big permit and approval
process, and constant oversight of the process by regulators over the years
as I gradually had people dumping the clean fill dirt there. I would be
more comfortable in this type of situation just doing what I want to do and
waiting to see if anyone complained or had any issue with what I was doing.

I know that is not what most people here would recommend, but that's what I
would do -- even in California (I live on the opposite coast).

However, if I did call and ask first (as you already did, and for good
reason), I would be sure to phrase it as just adding some clean fill dirt
along the side of the pedestrian side of the roadway to make it wider and
safer for pedestrians. I definitely would not use any terms like "fill in
or partially fill the hollow" etc. I would just keep it as widening the
pedestrian roadway.

And, speaking of roadways...., do you own the roadway? Is it your own
private road on only your land? Or, is it some type of common roadway on
county or shared land etc? And, if you don't own the roadway outright and
entirely on your own land, how wide is the roadway or roadway easement or
right of way? If you put clean fill dirt along the side of the existing
roadway, would part of it be going onto the existing right of way etc? I am
just curious and trying to picture what you have right now.


OP can do whatever he wants but runs the risk of it coming back to bite him


They could REQUIRE HIM to remove all the fill and restore the area to its original condition.

so how ill he pay for that?


if the OP EVER wants to sell the land its important its filled properly.'

I havea friend with a excavating business

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:05:42 -0400, TomR wrote:

But, I would be concerned that I would be asking a question that I do not
want to know the answer to. I would be concerned that simply by asking I
would then end up being subjected to a whole big permit and approval
process, and constant oversight of the process by regulators over the years
as I gradually had people dumping the clean fill dirt there.

I called the county again today, speaking to Jess at 299-5734, who told me
that the limit for a "grading permit" is 150 cubic yards, but ...

He says that if it's just one or two truck loads, then they don't expect us
to call them - but if it's a lot of truck loads (unspecified as to what
amount that is) then we should fill out paperwork with them to let them
know.

As you noted, they will come out and do an site inspection, but no "site
plan" is needed. Jess says that protects me if a neighbor calls them up so
they can tell the neighbor that they know all about it.

I'm not sure how much 150 cubic yards is, nor over what period, but I
assumed, from the conversation, that it was 150 cubic yards at any one time.

How much does a typical truck carry?

Algeria Horan writes:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:05:42 -0400, TomR wrote:

But, I would be concerned that I would be asking a question that I do not
want to know the answer to. I would be concerned that simply by asking I
would then end up being subjected to a whole big permit and approval
process, and constant oversight of the process by regulators over the years
as I gradually had people dumping the clean fill dirt there.

I called the county again today, speaking to Jess at 299-5734, who told me
that the limit for a "grading permit" is 150 cubic yards, but ...

He says that if it's just one or two truck loads, then they don't expect us
to call them - but if it's a lot of truck loads (unspecified as to what
amount that is) then we should fill out paperwork with them to let them
know.

As you noted, they will come out and do an site inspection, but no "site
plan" is needed. Jess says that protects me if a neighbor calls them up so
they can tell the neighbor that they know all about it.

I'm not sure how much 150 cubic yards is, nor over what period, but I
assumed, from the conversation, that it was 150 cubic yards at any one time.

How much does a typical truck carry?

google "dump truck capacity".

Algeria Horan used his keyboard to write :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:05:42 -0400, TomR wrote:

But, I would be concerned that I would be asking a question that I do not
want to know the answer to. I would be concerned that simply by asking I
would then end up being subjected to a whole big permit and approval
process, and constant oversight of the process by regulators over the years
as I gradually had people dumping the clean fill dirt there.

I called the county again today, speaking to Jess at 299-5734, who told me
that the limit for a "grading permit" is 150 cubic yards, but ...

He says that if it's just one or two truck loads, then they don't expect us
to call them - but if it's a lot of truck loads (unspecified as to what
amount that is) then we should fill out paperwork with them to let them
know.

As you noted, they will come out and do an site inspection, but no "site
plan" is needed. Jess says that protects me if a neighbor calls them up so
they can tell the neighbor that they know all about it.

I'm not sure how much 150 cubic yards is, nor over what period, but I
assumed, from the conversation, that it was 150 cubic yards at any one time.

How much does a typical truck carry?

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Have you considered how you are going to grade and compact the
material? What about dust abatement and storm water run off control.

California is a bitch about such issues.

In ,
Algeria Horan typed:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:05:42 -0400, TomR wrote:

But, I would be concerned that I would be asking a question that I
do not want to know the answer to. I would be concerned that simply
by asking I would then end up being subjected to a whole big permit
and approval process, and constant oversight of the process by
regulators over the years as I gradually had people dumping the
clean fill dirt there.

I called the county again today, speaking to Jess at 299-5734, who
told me that the limit for a "grading permit" is 150 cubic yards, but

He says that if it's just one or two truck loads, then they don't
expect us to call them - but if it's a lot of truck loads
(unspecified as to what amount that is) then we should fill out
paperwork with them to let them know.

As you noted, they will come out and do an site inspection, but no
"site plan" is needed. Jess says that protects me if a neighbor calls
them up so they can tell the neighbor that they know all about it.

I'm not sure how much 150 cubic yards is, nor over what period, but I
assumed, from the conversation, that it was 150 cubic yards at any
one time.

How much does a typical truck carry?

Interesting. That sounds like they are very reasonable and easy to work
with. I guess you mean they are saying that for under 150 cubic yards you
don't need a grading permit, for over 150 cubic yards you do need a grading
permit. I like how the person said that by you letting them know in
advance, if a neighbor calls they can let the neighbor know that they
already know about it.

I don't know how much a typical dump truck carries, but when I did a Google
search this is one website that came up in case it helps:


https://www.klsupplies.com/Delivery



Our Delivery Truck Sizes:

The smallest truck delivers up to 7 cubic yards of lightweight material and
weighs up to 14 tons.
The medium truck delivers up to 15 cubic yards of lightweight material and
weighs up to 24 tons.
The larger truck delivers up to 18 cubic yards of lightweight material and
weighs up to 27 tons.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:27 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

Algeria Horan used his keyboard to write :


How much does a typical truck carry?

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Make that 10 yards

Have you considered how you are going to grade and compact the
material? What about dust abatement and storm water run off control.

California is a bitch about such issues.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 16:38:26 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan
wrote:

I called the county again today, speaking to Jess at 299-5734, who told me
that the limit for a "grading permit" is 150 cubic yards, but ...

He says that if it's just one or two truck loads, then they don't expect us
to call them - but if it's a lot of truck loads (unspecified as to what
amount that is) then we should fill out paperwork with them to let them
know.

As you noted, they will come out and do an site inspection, but no "site
plan" is needed. Jess says that protects me if a neighbor calls them up so
they can tell the neighbor that they know all about it.

I'm not sure how much 150 cubic yards is, nor over what period, but I
assumed, from the conversation, that it was 150 cubic yards at any one time.

Just for your future protection, document dates, times and the
statements made. The who, what, when, where and why.

Perhaps, also ask how the federal EPA regulations apply locally. You
mentioned earlier about a dry stream bed days after rains. That could
fall under the clean water act. The EPA regulations might likely
supercede local rules and regulations.

formulated on Thursday :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:27 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

Algeria Horan used his keyboard to write :


How much does a typical truck carry?

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Make that 10 yards

Are you suggesting a "tandem" dump truck, like this

http://www.donmann.com/equipment.php...=tandemTrailer

only has a capacity of 10 cubic yards?

Here in CA tandem dumpers are extremely common on commercial projects.




Have you considered how you are going to grade and compact the
material? What about dust abatement and storm water run off control.

California is a bitch about such issues.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:01:17 -0700, Oren wrote:

Just for your future protection, document dates, times and the
statements made. The who, what, when, where and why.

I just did!

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:21:07 -0400, TomR wrote:

Interesting. That sounds like they are very reasonable and easy to work
with. I guess you mean they are saying that for under 150 cubic yards you
don't need a grading permit, for over 150 cubic yards you do need a grading
permit.

Yes. But Jess was very strong about letting them know if it's more than a
few loads. He kept mentioning the neighbors calling (maybe he gets more
calls than he can properly field?).

I like how the person said that by you letting them know in
advance, if a neighbor calls they can let the neighbor know that they
already know about it.

He said that quite a few times, because I kept trying to nail him down on
how many trucks necessitate the contact. He wouldn't give me an absolute
number, so when I asked about 'one or two' trucks, he immediately said that
was too little to bother.

So, I'm guessing something like 10 but it's only a guess.
Depends, of course, on how much the trucks carry.

I don't know how much a typical dump truck carries, but when I did a Google
search this is one website that came up in case it helps:

https://www.klsupplies.com/Delivery

Our Delivery Truck Sizes:

The smallest truck delivers up to 7 cubic yards of lightweight material and
weighs up to 14 tons.
The medium truck delivers up to 15 cubic yards of lightweight material and
weighs up to 24 tons.
The larger truck delivers up to 18 cubic yards of lightweight material and
weighs up to 27 tons.

Thanks for that information. The trucks will be on the small'ish side, so,
I'm guessing 10 yrds3 is a good number to average out to.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:32:05 -0700, Sterling Archer wrote:

Are you suggesting a "tandem" dump truck, like this

http://www.donmann.com/equipment.php...=tandemTrailer

It's a windy road, so I don't think they'll want to bring those tandem guys.
A single container (whatever you call the part that holds the dirt) is all
that I'd expect them to bring on this road.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:26:32 -0400, wrote:

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Make that 10 yards

So, that's roughly 15 trucks.
I need to call back and find out the time period though.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:27 -0700, Sterling Archer wrote:

Have you considered how you are going to grade and compact the
material? What about dust abatement and storm water run off control.

Dust isn't a problem out here, AFAIK.
We have dirt roads all over the place.
And I've seen piles of dirt that builders leave.
Never saw dust. Dunno why. It's dry enough in the summer.
It's just not a problem AFAICT.

Storm water only happens in winter, and, yeah, it can run.
But where I am, it doesn't seem like it would be a problem either.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 19:50:47 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:01:17 -0700, Oren wrote:

Just for your future protection, document dates, times and the
statements made. The who, what, when, where and why.

I just did!



A saying in my former work life: "If it ain't documented it didn't
happen." :-\

In ,
Algeria Horan typed:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:21:07 -0400, TomR wrote:

Interesting. That sounds like they are very reasonable and easy to
work with. I guess you mean they are saying that for under 150
cubic yards you don't need a grading permit, for over 150 cubic
yards you do need a grading permit.

Yes. But Jess was very strong about letting them know if it's more
than a few loads. He kept mentioning the neighbors calling (maybe he
gets more calls than he can properly field?).

I like how the person said that by you letting them know in
advance, if a neighbor calls they can let the neighbor know that they
already know about it.

He said that quite a few times, because I kept trying to nail him
down on how many trucks necessitate the contact. He wouldn't give me
an absolute number, so when I asked about 'one or two' trucks, he
immediately said that was too little to bother.

So, I'm guessing something like 10 but it's only a guess.
Depends, of course, on how much the trucks carry.

The person that you are talking with seems to be very reasonable. And, he
just seems to be saying to let him know if you are going to have more than
just 1 or 2 truckloads of clean fill dirt delivered.

So, if it were me, once I found a source for clean fill dirt to be
delivered, I would just call him and let him know beforehand. Even if the
first source was only 1 or 2 truckloads, I would call him and let him know.
And, I would say that I will be getting more delivered after the first 1 or
2 truckloads but certainly not more than 150 cubic yards. Then just keep
having the clean fill dirt delivered as you find sources for it. But, I
wouldn't go over the 150 cubic yards amount.

And, other than the above, I wouldn't keep calling him now with more
questions and driving the poor guy crazy. I would just call him once I
found a source for the first 1 or 2 truckloads to be delivered -- because so
far you haven't found a source for clean fill dirt to be given to you and
delivered for free, which is what you want.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:32:05 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

formulated on Thursday :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:27 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

Algeria Horan used his keyboard to write :


How much does a typical truck carry?

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Make that 10 yards

Are you suggesting a "tandem" dump truck, like this

http://www.donmann.com/equipment.php...=tandemTrailer

That is basically two trucks

has brought this to us :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:32:05 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

formulated on Thursday :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:27 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

Algeria Horan used his keyboard to write :

How much does a typical truck carry?

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Make that 10 yards

Are you suggesting a "tandem" dump truck, like this

http://www.donmann.com/equipment.php...=tandemTrailer

That is basically two trucks

Hence the word "tandem" ;-)

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 13:27:08 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

has brought this to us :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:32:05 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

formulated on Thursday :
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:27 -0700, "Sterling Archer"
wrote:

Algeria Horan used his keyboard to write :

How much does a typical truck carry?

As with most things, it all depends. A typical tandem dump truck can
carry 18 yd3.

Make that 10 yards

Are you suggesting a "tandem" dump truck, like this

http://www.donmann.com/equipment.php...=tandemTrailer

That is basically two trucks

Hence the word "tandem" ;-)

Sorry my bad. I was thinking you meant "tandem axle". They don't allow
those trailers here I guess. I have never seen one.
OTOH tri axle trucks are everywhere. We have been trucking Hendry
county west for decades, one truck load at a time. It is not unusual
to be sitting at a light, surrounded by a half dozen dump trucks.
Your typical 2000 sq/ft starter home will be sitting on 400-500
cu/yds of dirt. Once that is dumped, graded and compacted, it doesn't
really look like that much. That is what makes me think the OP's
project is a lot more than he thinks it will be.
They are building one around the corner. I will get some pictures of
what 400 yards of dirt looks like. That is where he is now and he
still has not filled the box (inside the stem wall)

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 16:21:47 -0400, TomR wrote:

So, if it were me, once I found a source for clean fill dirt to be
delivered, I would just call him and let him know beforehand.

The only correction would be that Jess specifically said it had to be in
writing. Being the government, I presume there is a form...

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 18:54:35 -0400, wrote:

Sorry my bad. I was thinking you meant "tandem axle". They don't allow
those trailers here I guess. I have never seen one.
OTOH tri axle trucks are everywher

I happened to see these two trucks today, and figured I'd post the picture
since these are the two types that I would expect to see when I get the soil
delivered.
https://s13.postimg.org/rgot08qwn/truck2.jpg

How many cubic yards do you think these hold?
https://s13.postimg.org/4qpo797p3/truck1.jpg

I'm guessing 10 cubic yards each?

On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 16:57:48 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:

wood chips rot fast.

whats the end use for the property? if you want to
eventually sell for say building homes there are
rules about filling.

check with your local building inspectors......

There's no "end use" in mind, other than it's a dirt road that has a drop
off on both sides. I'm thinking, long term, we can put a "walking" area on
the downhill side so that people don't have to walk in the middle of the
rutted road.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:30:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

If by filling the area in, you cause an increase in rain-water runoff,
or runoff at a faster rate, you might be liable for damages to downstream
properties if you do not get permits, approvals, etc, from the correct
governing authorities.

To answer your question, the county requires a "grading permit" if the
amount of soil is greater than 150 cubic yards.

They "recommend" we fill out forms even if we're gonna be below that, but
not if it's only a few truck loads.

Once those forms are filled out, they'll inspect periodically.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 16:57:48 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:

wood chips rot fast.

whats the end use for the property? if you want to
eventually sell for say building homes there are
rules about filling.

check with your local building inspectors......

There's no "end use" in mind, other than it's a dirt road that has a drop
off on both sides. I'm thinking, long term, we can put a "walking" area on
the downhill side so that people don't have to walk in the middle of the
rutted road.

Since you are obviously capable of taking pictures of trucks, perhaps you
could show a picture of the road you are concerned with.

--
RonNNN

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 18:48:04 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 18:54:35 -0400, wrote:

Sorry my bad. I was thinking you meant "tandem axle". They don't allow
those trailers here I guess. I have never seen one.
OTOH tri axle trucks are everywher

I happened to see these two trucks today, and figured I'd post the picture
since these are the two types that I would expect to see when I get the soil
delivered.
https://s13.postimg.org/rgot08qwn/truck2.jpg

How many cubic yards do you think these hold?
https://s13.postimg.org/4qpo797p3/truck1.jpg

I'm guessing 10 cubic yards each?

The double bottom truck in the front may be one of those "18 yard"
setups (truck and trailer) The 6 wheeler in back is more like 6 yards
depending on what they are hauling.
The 10 wheeler is 8 yards or so and if it has the "tri axle" a 3d set
of wheels in the back it is 10 yards, based on what the haul here in
Florida (sand and coral rock).
Weight is the main limiting factor and dirt is heavy. 2 tons per yard
or so.

Just for a reality check, this is 400 yards of dirt to get up to "FEMA
from where the original grass was.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Gils%20hous...0elevation.jpg

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 16:34:41 -0400, wrote:

The double bottom truck in the front may be one of those "18 yard"
setups (truck and trailer)

Thank you for that. The *biggest* it would be is that big, but more likely
each truck would be smaller.

The 6 wheeler in back is more like 6 yards
depending on what they are hauling.

I didn't notice that it was smaller than the third truck until you mentioned
it only had two axles.

The 10 wheeler is 8 yards or so and if it has the "tri axle" a 3d set
of wheels in the back it is 10 yards, based on what the haul here in
Florida (sand and coral rock).

I only noticed the number of axles after you mentioned it. This is most
likely the kind of truck I'm envisioning, so, I can safely assume 10 yards
per truck of that size.

Weight is the main limiting factor and dirt is heavy. 2 tons per yard
or so.

Wow. Twenty tons in that truck.

Just for a reality check, this is 400 yards of dirt to get up to "FEMA
from where the original grass was.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Gils%20hous...0elevation.jpg

Wow. 400 yards? That's more than twice our grading-permit limit.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:49:09 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 16:34:41 -0400, wrote:

The double bottom truck in the front may be one of those "18 yard"
setups (truck and trailer)

Thank you for that. The *biggest* it would be is that big, but more likely
each truck would be smaller.

The 6 wheeler in back is more like 6 yards
depending on what they are hauling.

I didn't notice that it was smaller than the third truck until you mentioned
it only had two axles.

The 10 wheeler is 8 yards or so and if it has the "tri axle" a 3d set
of wheels in the back it is 10 yards, based on what the haul here in
Florida (sand and coral rock).

I only noticed the number of axles after you mentioned it. This is most
likely the kind of truck I'm envisioning, so, I can safely assume 10 yards
per truck of that size.

Weight is the main limiting factor and dirt is heavy. 2 tons per yard
or so.

Wow. Twenty tons in that truck.

Typically 80,000 pounds is the max (gross weight) on state roads
without a permit and then they will be restricted to roads and bridges
that can handle them. (These are 18 wheelers) This is regional tho so
YMMV. Out west they like longer configurations to spread that load out
farther and decrease the spot load on bridges. In the east the use of
double bottom trucks is limited if allowed at all. Length becomes a
problem navigating winding roads and suburban streets.
We had a car hauler in my neighborhood the other day that was on the
grass on both sides of every turn.


Just for a reality check, this is 400 yards of dirt to get up to "FEMA
from where the original grass was.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Gils%20hous...0elevation.jpg

Wow. 400 yards? That's more than twice our grading-permit limit.

That is why I said you might be surprised how much dirt you are
talking about there.
150 yards is about 33000 gallons, a small public pool like you see in
a motel. An "olympic" pool is considered to be ~650,000 gallons.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 13:18:44 -0400, wrote:

150 yards is about 33000 gallons, a small public pool like you see in
a motel. An "olympic" pool is considered to be ~650,000 gallons.

I like the analogy you give, because I can envision pool sizes.