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#1
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The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI.
(Note to self: are there any other outlets on that same circuit that I need to chase down?) Presently using them to light XMAS lights on one of the citrus trees. IIRC, each string is about 250W. With ~700W on the circuit, turning the breaker ON (i.e., using it as a switch -- instead of plugging/unplugging the load) causes it to immediately trip. Repeating the action in short order appears to get it to latch and remain latched (ON), indefinitely. OK, so the surge when all the lamps are cold can increase the inrush current -- on the short term -- to levels that probably exceed the 20A limit of the breaker. "In theory" OTOH, in years past, I've run the circuit at close to its capacity (~10 strings) without this problem. I've changed breakers (swapped with one feeding another circuit) and the problem persists. [There are no leakage paths in the wiring OUTSIDE] This suggests something in the wiring/fixtures. I'll start isolating outlets, tomorrow (dark here, now). Perhaps some insect (leaf cutter?) has opted to nest in one of the receptacles. Anything else I should explore? |
#2
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On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote:
The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. |
#3
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On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" |
#4
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GFCI's
On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:19:01 -0700, Don Y
wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. (Note to self: are there any other outlets on that same circuit that I need to chase down?) Presently using them to light XMAS lights on one of the citrus trees. IIRC, each string is about 250W. With ~700W on the circuit, turning the breaker ON (i.e., using it as a switch -- instead of plugging/unplugging the load) causes it to immediately trip. Repeating the action in short order appears to get it to latch and remain latched (ON), indefinitely. OK, so the surge when all the lamps are cold can increase the inrush current -- on the short term -- to levels that probably exceed the 20A limit of the breaker. "In theory" OTOH, in years past, I've run the circuit at close to its capacity (~10 strings) without this problem. I've changed breakers (swapped with one feeding another circuit) and the problem persists. [There are no leakage paths in the wiring OUTSIDE] This suggests something in the wiring/fixtures. I'll start isolating outlets, tomorrow (dark here, now). Perhaps some insect (leaf cutter?) has opted to nest in one of the receptacles. Anything else I should explore? Since you are swapping stuff around, try it on a non-GFI circuit. That will tell you if it is a ground fault. Usually this tracks back to water/bugs in a box. I have one nightmare GFI circuit here that is longer than the design spec for GFIs but it works when everything is dry. When it fails, I end up splitting the circuit up to isolate the failure. Bear in mind, it can be a ground fault on the neutral. On outside boxes, make sure all of the wirenuts are pointed up, near the top of the box and that they are not too close to the box. It mitigates the water they all collect eventually. |
#6
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#7
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GFCI's
On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:19:01 -0700, Don Y
wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. (Note to self: are there any other outlets on that same circuit that I need to chase down?) My 1979 house near Baltimore was built with one GFCI circuit that powers the front outdoor receptacle, the recepts in each bathroom, and iirc the one near the sink in the kitchen. I bought the house when it was 4 years old, and within a couple years, the breaker kept tripping, but the replacement has only tripped twice in 30 years. For the last 12 years I've had a heavy orange extension cord plugged into the front outdoor outlet, or into an extension cord plugged into it. The female end of both has lain in the grass for the last 12 years, 365 days a year/24, through rain and snow and sleet and gloom of night. And the breaker has only tripped twice. Many different locations, wherever I feel like throwing it at the end of the day. I do make a point to pick it up a foot from the end when it's wet. Presently using them to light XMAS lights on one of the citrus trees. IIRC, each string is about 250W. With ~700W on the circuit, turning the breaker ON (i.e., using I use a B&D elelctric lawnmower with no problem, but i don't know its rating or other things about your question. it as a switch -- instead of plugging/unplugging the load) causes it to immediately trip. Repeating the action in short order appears to get it to latch and remain latched (ON), indefinitely. OK, so the surge when all the lamps are cold can increase the inrush current -- on the short term -- to levels that probably exceed the 20A limit of the breaker. "In theory" OTOH, in years past, I've run the circuit at close to its capacity (~10 strings) without this problem. I've changed breakers (swapped with one feeding another circuit) and the problem persists. [There are no leakage paths in the wiring OUTSIDE] This suggests something in the wiring/fixtures. I'll start isolating outlets, tomorrow (dark here, now). Perhaps some insect (leaf cutter?) has opted to nest in one of the receptacles. Anything else I should explore? |
#8
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GFCI's
On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 20:25:06 -0700, Don Y
wrote: I'll just have to unwind it from its "storage spool") Try just unwinding it from the spool and trying it again. You may just be coupling current into the grounding conductor. Because of that, they do have specs for different wiring methods and the total length of the circuit. |
#11
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#12
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On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:19:01 -0700, Don Y
wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. (Note to self: are there any other outlets on that same circuit that I need to chase down?) Presently using them to light XMAS lights on one of the citrus trees. IIRC, each string is about 250W. With ~700W on the circuit, turning the breaker ON (i.e., using it as a switch -- instead of plugging/unplugging the load) causes it to immediately trip. Repeating the action in short order appears to get it to latch and remain latched (ON), indefinitely. What are yiou using for lights? It sounds like they are incandescent C9 bulbs in strings of 25 bulbs. (which is actually 225Watts). [25 times 9watts]. OK, so the surge when all the lamps are cold can increase the inrush current -- on the short term -- to levels that probably exceed the 20A limit of the breaker. 700W is not even close to 20A. A 20A breaker can handle roughly 2400 watts. (Of course you dont want to run it at it's maximum load). Either way, 700W is only around 30% of the capacity of the breaker. Yea, starting current is always higher, but even if it was double (1400) watts, you're still way below the allowable load limit for a 20A circuit. "In theory" OTOH, in years past, I've run the circuit at close to its capacity (~10 strings) without this problem. I've changed breakers (swapped with one feeding another circuit) and the problem persists. [There are no leakage paths in the wiring OUTSIDE] This suggests something in the wiring/fixtures. I'll start isolating outlets, tomorrow (dark here, now). Perhaps some insect (leaf cutter?) has opted to nest in one of the receptacles. Anything else I should explore? Check, check twice, check 3 times and check again for any minor breaks in the light strings. One very tiny spot of bare wire, a bulb base slightly exposed and touching a tree branch, or the soil, and so on.... Christmas light strings are notorious for electrical leakage and if they're old, even more so. Also, years ago, when I used to decorate outside of my parents house, using those C9 (and C7) strings, more than once one of the bulbs seemed to develop an internal short. Apparently the filament broke, but welded itself back together but it was shorter and drew excess current. That bulb would eventually burn out, but sometimes it would blow a fuse when it died. So, you might check every bulb for any sign of defect, which is easier said than done. Or replace all the bulbs in one string at a time. Better yet, just buy some C9 sized LED strings, and if you have them on every night until the end of December, they will probably pay for themselves in electrical savings. Just a guess, but a string of 25 LEDs probably use about 20 to 30 watts. Three strings of incandescent will use 675W (Roughly 700W) every hour. So whatever you pay per KWH, is spent approximately every 1-1/2 hours. As an example, if you pay 15 cents per KWH, Six hours per day will cost you 60 cents per night. That's a cost of $18 for one month. Three LED strings will use around 80W per hour. 480W in 6 hours, which amounts to about 7 cents per day or $2.10 for an entire month. You save $15.90 in that month. |
#13
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On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! Unless the first application of power heated and "dried" whatever was causing the leak. Not a very likely scenario, for sure - but possibly just within the realm of possibility?? |
#14
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On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:25:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:57 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:19:01 -0700, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. (Note to self: are there any other outlets on that same circuit that I need to chase down?) Presently using them to light XMAS lights on one of the citrus trees. IIRC, each string is about 250W. With ~700W on the circuit, turning the breaker ON (i.e., using it as a switch -- instead of plugging/unplugging the load) causes it to immediately trip. Repeating the action in short order appears to get it to latch and remain latched (ON), indefinitely. OK, so the surge when all the lamps are cold can increase the inrush current -- on the short term -- to levels that probably exceed the 20A limit of the breaker. "In theory" OTOH, in years past, I've run the circuit at close to its capacity (~10 strings) without this problem. I've changed breakers (swapped with one feeding another circuit) and the problem persists. [There are no leakage paths in the wiring OUTSIDE] This suggests something in the wiring/fixtures. I'll start isolating outlets, tomorrow (dark here, now). Perhaps some insect (leaf cutter?) has opted to nest in one of the receptacles. Anything else I should explore? Since you are swapping stuff around, try it on a non-GFI circuit. That will tell you if it is a ground fault. Moving the strins of lights to another circuit would take the existing wiring *and* GFCI out of the calculus. OTOH, I could see if there's a breaker nearby that I can "borrow" onto which to move the existing wiring. I.e., I've tried changing JUST the GFCI breaker with another GFCI breaker (keeping everything else constant); this would allow me to try nonGFCI vs. GFCI (again, keeping everything else constant). Trick will be to see how far I can reach in the electric panel to pick up a different breaker. Usually this tracks back to water/bugs in a box. Boxes are recessed into block/cement walls. Faces sealed with foam gaskets. Outdoor "in use" covers keep out direct rain/water. Bugs, OTOH, can always crawl in through the hole in the cover intended for the cords to exit. But, bug would lead to suspected GFCI issue. And, would persist (not "clear" itself after the first breaker trip/reset) I have one nightmare GFI circuit here that is longer than the design spec for GFIs but it works when everything is dry. When it fails, I end up splitting the circuit up to isolate the failure. Bear in mind, it can be a ground fault on the neutral. Again, see above. IMO, it has something to do with the initial transient. I need to find a load that is more PURELY resistive to see what it's like when the load is X from the moment the breaker is FIRST closed. On outside boxes, make sure all of the wirenuts are pointed up, near the top of the box and that they are not too close to the box. It mitigates the water they all collect eventually. Make up a "soft start box" getr an electric heater. take a short extension cord (or make one uo) and cut the live wire, inserting a second plug in series with the existing one. Plug the heater into the second plug, the lights into the first. This will reduce the current on startup. Wire a switch across the second plug so you can short the heater out of the circuit after the lights come on. This will tell you for sure if it is a cold surge problem. If you get a 750/1500 heater you can select how hard or soft the start is. |
#16
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#17
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#18
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So there are 3 strings of lights?
Try switching the breaker on with 2 out of 3 strings plugged in, i.e one string unplugged.. THen change to another 2 out of 3 etc i.e another one unplugged. If it still trips with 2/3 , it's leakage. If it doesn't, it's surge current. |
#19
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GFCI's
install a regular switch or a timer after the breaker.
not only more convenient, but long term using a breaker as a switch can lead to breaker failure. |
#21
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On 12/2/2015 7:55 AM, bob haller wrote:
install a regular switch or a timer after the breaker. not only more convenient, but long term using a breaker as a switch can lead to breaker failure. The first "test" I did was to replace the breaker -- with one that has seen *no* use. So, while flipping the breaker on and off a few dozen times a year *may* fatigue the mechanism, it's not the cause of our current problem (unless the replacement breaker happens to be defective from the factory). |
#22
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On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. I am not a fan of the "inrush" theory of GFCI tripping. (or most other myths about what trips them) This is a simple comparison of the current between the hot and the neutral through a buck wound transformer. If you really think it is an overcurrent situation, plug it into a non GFCI circuit to test it |
#23
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On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 07:29:45 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! Unless the first application of power heated and "dried" whatever was causing the leak. Not a very likely scenario, for sure - but possibly just within the realm of possibility?? I have lots of GFCIs around here and it is not unusual to have one that tripped to hold after resetting a time or two. In the end, I always find a fault somewhere, usually something that is getting wet. |
#24
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On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 08:07:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/2/2015 7:55 AM, bob haller wrote: install a regular switch or a timer after the breaker. not only more convenient, but long term using a breaker as a switch can lead to breaker failure. The first "test" I did was to replace the breaker -- with one that has seen *no* use. So, while flipping the breaker on and off a few dozen times a year *may* fatigue the mechanism, it's not the cause of our current problem (unless the replacement breaker happens to be defective from the factory). What happens if the breaker is already on and you just plug in the lights? |
#26
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On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 10:31:42 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. I am not a fan of the "inrush" theory of GFCI tripping. (or most other myths about what trips them) This is a simple comparison of the current between the hot and the neutral through a buck wound transformer. If you really think it is an overcurrent situation, plug it into a non GFCI circuit to test it +1 I also don't think the inrush current on 700W on lights could trip a 20A breaker. If it could, seems we'd have that problem all the time. 700W is only 6A worth of lights. I would think it's more likely something related to a fault, but why it would not happen on the second attempt, IDK. |
#27
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On 12/2/2015 11:02 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/2/2015 8:39 AM, wrote: What happens if the breaker is already on and you just plug in the lights? The breaker trips. This is one of my least favorite ways of testing as it means a trip all the way around the house to reset the breaker... By contrast, turning the breaker on with load attached gives me the same feedback -- and, I'm right there, ready to turn it back on, again. I'm remembering the customer who called. The furnace tripped the breaker. So, she reset the breaker a couple dozen times, till the breaker stayed on. Still won't work. I find the first problem was a $65 shorted blower motor. Second problem was the $250 circuit board that fried cause she kept sending power surges through it. -- .. Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .. www.lds.org .. .. |
#28
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On 12/2/2015 8:31 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. Then, what is "rehydrating" the material for the *next* time it trips? No rain, here. Low humidity. No plumbing anywhere nearby. I am not a fan of the "inrush" theory of GFCI tripping. (or most other myths about what trips them) This is a simple comparison of the current between the hot and the neutral through a buck wound transformer. If you really think it is an overcurrent situation, plug it into a non GFCI circuit to test it That assumes the overload characteristics of the non-GFCI breaker are identical to that of the GFCI breaker. I have yet to find any documentation that calls out specifics -- for the GFCI breaker *or* the non-GFCI breakers located in the same panel! |
#29
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On 12/2/2015 10:56 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/2/2015 8:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. Then, what is "rehydrating" the material for the *next* time it trips? No rain, here. Low humidity. No plumbing anywhere nearby. This can't be the problem. Lights have been on all night. "Unplugged" them (i.e., don't muck with the breaker). Wait *1* second and plug in, again. Lights come back on (i.e., breaker does not trip). After a few seconds, unplug again. Wait 10 seconds and plug back in. Again, lights come on. After a few seconds, unplug a third time. Wait 2 *minutes* and plug back in. Breaker immediately trips. |
#30
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GFCI's
On 12/2/2015 11:08 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/2/2015 10:56 AM, Don Y wrote: On 12/2/2015 8:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. Then, what is "rehydrating" the material for the *next* time it trips? No rain, here. Low humidity. No plumbing anywhere nearby. This can't be the problem. Lights have been on all night. "Unplugged" them (i.e., don't muck with the breaker). Wait *1* second and plug in, again. Lights come back on (i.e., breaker does not trip). After a few seconds, unplug again. Wait 10 seconds and plug back in. Again, lights come on. After a few seconds, unplug a third time. Wait 2 *minutes* and plug back in. Breaker immediately trips. And, plugging the extension cord into a non-GFCI (inside the home) outlet -- keeping exactly the same amount of cord "wound" on it's spool as before -- does NOT trip *that* breaker. I.e., the only thing that has been isolated as a result of these tests is the wire inside the walls and the actual receptacles; when that stuff is "in circuit", the breaker trips (either when turned on *or* when a "cold" load is plugged into it) I'll try to remove all of the OTHER receptacles (places where things can infiltrate the wiring) and repeat the original test. Then, replace the receptacle in question. Then, move the load to a different receptacle. Beyond that, I'll have to start opening wire nuts -- not something I like doing with #12AWG : |
#31
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GFCI's
On 12/02/2015 12:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
.... This can't be the problem. Lights have been on all night. "Unplugged" them (i.e., don't muck with the breaker). Wait *1* second and plug in, again. Lights come back on (i.e., breaker does not trip). After a few seconds, unplug again. Wait 10 seconds and plug back in. Again, lights come on. After a few seconds, unplug a third time. Wait 2 *minutes* and plug back in. Breaker immediately trips. That's got to be a thermal problem in (probably) a particular lamp...eventually it'll burn out and let you isolate it or the base itself will fail. -- |
#32
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GFCI's
On 12/2/2015 11:54 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/02/2015 12:08 PM, Don Y wrote: .... This can't be the problem. Lights have been on all night. "Unplugged" them (i.e., don't muck with the breaker). Wait *1* second and plug in, again. Lights come back on (i.e., breaker does not trip). After a few seconds, unplug again. Wait 10 seconds and plug back in. Again, lights come on. After a few seconds, unplug a third time. Wait 2 *minutes* and plug back in. Breaker immediately trips. That's got to be a thermal problem in (probably) a particular lamp...eventually it'll burn out and let you isolate it or the base itself will fail. Unplug the three strings from the extension cord. Leave cord exactly as is. Take three *other* "identical" strings out and wire them in exactly the same fashion as the first set-of-three. Turn on breaker. Trips immediately. Let it reset and turn it on a second time. Holds. Walk around house to return to the point where the extension cord is plugged in. Unplug. Wait a few seconds. Plug back in. Breaker trips. (No, I'm not going to keep repeating this test to see how long it takes for the load to "deteriorate" between power applications. The fact that it tripped suggests the problem is not in the original three strings of lights -- or, coincidentally ALSO happens to be in the OTHER three strings, as well. And, no, I'm not going to drag out a third set of three... or a fourth set of three... : ) |
#33
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GFCI's
On 12/02/2015 1:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/2/2015 11:54 AM, dpb wrote: .... That's got to be a thermal problem in (probably) a particular lamp...eventually it'll burn out and let you isolate it or the base itself will fail. Unplug the three strings from the extension cord. Leave cord exactly as is. Take three *other* "identical" strings out and wire them in exactly the same fashion as the first set-of-three. Turn on breaker. Trips immediately. Let it reset and turn it on a second time. Holds. Walk around house to return to the point where the extension cord is plugged in. Unplug. Wait a few seconds. Plug back in. Breaker trips. .... Hadn't seen the duplicated test result... I'd stick with the thermal issue and I'd suspect the cord if it's one of those w/ the indicator lamp built into the plug. Did you ever isolate whether there were any other loads on this circuit besides these two (I think were mentioned early on?) exterior receptacles? -- |
#34
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GFCI's
On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 2:07:56 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 12/2/2015 11:54 AM, dpb wrote: On 12/02/2015 12:08 PM, Don Y wrote: .... This can't be the problem. Lights have been on all night. "Unplugged" them (i.e., don't muck with the breaker). Wait *1* second and plug in, again. Lights come back on (i.e., breaker does not trip). After a few seconds, unplug again. Wait 10 seconds and plug back in. Again, lights come on. After a few seconds, unplug a third time. Wait 2 *minutes* and plug back in. Breaker immediately trips. That's got to be a thermal problem in (probably) a particular lamp...eventually it'll burn out and let you isolate it or the base itself will fail. Unplug the three strings from the extension cord. Leave cord exactly as is. Take three *other* "identical" strings out and wire them in exactly the same fashion as the first set-of-three. Turn on breaker. Trips immediately. Let it reset and turn it on a second time. Holds. Walk around house to return to the point where the extension cord is plugged in. Unplug. Wait a few seconds. Plug back in. Breaker trips. (No, I'm not going to keep repeating this test to see how long it takes for the load to "deteriorate" between power applications. The fact that it tripped suggests the problem is not in the original three strings of lights -- or, coincidentally ALSO happens to be in the OTHER three strings, as well. And, no, I'm not going to drag out a third set of three... or a fourth set of three... : ) Seems that the surge current of all those bulbs is just a bit too high for the breaker. So here's a question... I assume the lights in question are small incandescent bulbs. Are they the type that you can unscrew one and all the other bulbs stay lit (indicating they are wired in parallel) or are they the tiny bulbs that if you unplug one bulb many others in the string go out as well (indicating that they are wired in series)? Mark |
#35
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GFCI's
On 12/2/2015 12:31 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/02/2015 1:08 PM, Don Y wrote: On 12/2/2015 11:54 AM, dpb wrote: .... That's got to be a thermal problem in (probably) a particular lamp...eventually it'll burn out and let you isolate it or the base itself will fail. Unplug the three strings from the extension cord. Leave cord exactly as is. Take three *other* "identical" strings out and wire them in exactly the same fashion as the first set-of-three. Turn on breaker. Trips immediately. Let it reset and turn it on a second time. Holds. Walk around house to return to the point where the extension cord is plugged in. Unplug. Wait a few seconds. Plug back in. Breaker trips. .... Hadn't seen the duplicated test result... I'd stick with the thermal issue and I'd suspect the cord if it's one of those w/ the indicator lamp built into the plug. Did you ever isolate whether there were any other loads on this circuit besides these two (I think were mentioned early on?) exterior receptacles? The only (intentional!) load on the circuit is these (or "those" -- depending on whether you refer to the original 3 or the replacement 3) 3 strings of lamps. I.e., in a theoretical scheme, it's just a long wire with a bunch (5) of duplex receptacles hanging off it, fed through a circuit breaker (which has been replaced with an "unused" GFCI). The fact that the different strings don't appear to make any difference to the result *suggests* it's not in the "load". The fact that a different GFCI doesn't appear to make a difference tends to rule that out. This leaves outlets, wiring and extension cord. The fact that lights plugged into extension cord doesn't cause a problem on another branch circuit suggests the cord MIGHT not be a problem (it could still be "leaky" and the non-GFCI doesn't notice that). I can remove receptacles from the wiring (a bit of a hassle to remove the "outdoor" covers, remove the receptacle, then remove the two conductors -- I can leave the safety ground as long as I ensure the receptacle is "dangling freely") Isolating portions of the wiring gets to be a bit more involved; instead of "daisy chaining" through the second set of contacts on the receptacles, I tie the upstream and downstream wiring together with wire nuts and run a pigtail off to the receptacle. This ensures the receptacle is not "in series" with the downstream devices. But, today is shopping day. frown So, instead of using the daylight hours to troubleshoot the problem, I'll waste them running around buying "stuff". (sigh) |
#36
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GFCI's
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#37
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GFCI's
On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 10:56:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/2/2015 8:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. Then, what is "rehydrating" the material for the *next* time it trips? No rain, here. Low humidity. No plumbing anywhere nearby. I am not a fan of the "inrush" theory of GFCI tripping. (or most other myths about what trips them) This is a simple comparison of the current between the hot and the neutral through a buck wound transformer. If you really think it is an overcurrent situation, plug it into a non GFCI circuit to test it That assumes the overload characteristics of the non-GFCI breaker are identical to that of the GFCI breaker. I have yet to find any documentation that calls out specifics -- for the GFCI breaker *or* the non-GFCI breakers located in the same panel! They seem to just be a regular breaker with a GFCI manual trip mechanism built in. http://gfretwell.com/electrical/gfci.jpg |
#38
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GFCI's
On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 11:08:06 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 12/2/2015 10:56 AM, Don Y wrote: On 12/2/2015 8:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 02 Dec 2015 00:13:36 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 8:00 PM, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:46:03 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:26:18 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 12/1/2015 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote: The outlets in the back of the house are on a 20A GFCI. For those who didn't connect the dots, this is a GFCI *breaker*, not a GFCI *outlet* daisy-chained to feed the others. Does it trip with nothing connected? If not, it's not a dauber or anything on the main circuit. It has to be on the "load". Outdoor lights on a GFCI can be a problem - lots of possibilities for "leakage" If there is absolutely nothing connected, a neutral fault will not trip the GFCI. The slightest load will trip it tho. (it splits the neutral current) The other thing to remember is the faults are additive. If you are leaking a couple ma in a couple places, it will work until the total gets up around 5ma or so. You're ignoring the fact that the breaker latches and HOLDS on the "second attempt". This suggests the problem is related to the change in load characteristics from the previous "brief lighting event" (fraction of a second when power surged into the lamps just before the breaker trips on the first attempt). I'm at a loss to explain how anything else could appear and then disappear so readily! If it is a clump of moist material, you may be cooking the moisture out a little with the first attempt. Then, what is "rehydrating" the material for the *next* time it trips? No rain, here. Low humidity. No plumbing anywhere nearby. This can't be the problem. Lights have been on all night. "Unplugged" them (i.e., don't muck with the breaker). Wait *1* second and plug in, again. Lights come back on (i.e., breaker does not trip). After a few seconds, unplug again. Wait 10 seconds and plug back in. Again, lights come on. After a few seconds, unplug a third time. Wait 2 *minutes* and plug back in. Breaker immediately trips. You may just have a bad breaker. |
#39
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GFCI's
In the past, there were 3 times as many bulbs in place without a problem! wow so maybe your breakers aged... (I'm serious, they do age) or you changed extension cords to a heavier guage? or there is other load in another outlet on the same breaker I would as a test change to a non GFI breaker to eliminate that possibility. I didn't see the naswer to the 2 out of 3 question, what if you use 2 strings instead of 3? Mark |
#40
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