The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:19:04 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

You're right. 3 wires, two are hot, one is neutral. The hots are fine.
The neutral is connected to the same buss bar that the grounding system
is connected.

Let me explain. This is a farm, where there is a main meter pole. The
meter has a main disconnect panel under it. There are two pull out fuse
blocks in there, each is 200A (400A service). I dont need half that
amperage, but this was a once a large farm with all sorts of grain
dryers and power consuming stuff. Now, I just run a small farm and dont
need all that much power. But that old fuse panel is still there. I have
two overhead triplex cables connected to one of these pull out fuses.
They feed the barn and garage and other sheds. The house is connected
via underground SE cable and is connected to the other pull out fuse.
THe house and the garage and barn each have separate breaker panels each
have their own MAIN breaker and each has their own grounding system.

Anyhow, getting back to that meter pole panel. The neutral and ground
are bonded in that box. Thats normal. But the house has newer wiring and
this there is that 4th wire (green wire) which does not exist in the
overhead triplex cables to the other buildings.

When I moved here, the electric compamy inspected that panel before they
would turn on the power. They said it was OK, even with that green wire
NOT connected. So, I'm not really concerned about the code so much. But
I still think that green wire should be connected to the ground on that
end. (Mostly for lightning spikes).

In the house, there is a newer breaker panel, which has separate neutral
buss bar and ground buss bar. So in the house they are separated and the
green wire goes to the ground buss along with the house grounding
system. However that green wire does nothing since it's not connected on
the other end.

Back at the meter pole panel. Because there are 3 separate feeds and
some very thick cables due to the 400A service. Therefore, there are no
spare screws (lugs) for this green wire and none will accept another
cable because they are not big enough to double up cables.

So, I'm back to either clamping it to the ground wire, or leaving it
disconnected.

Like I said, the code is not all that important since the power company
said things were OK. Even if it's a technical violation, I know it's
not a hazard. I just think in the event of a lightning surge, the more
grounding the better.

I'm mostly just concerned about connecting the aluminum cable to the
copper one, regarding corrosion issues....

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 04:58:12 -0600, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:19:04 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

You're right. 3 wires, two are hot, one is neutral. The hots are fine.
The neutral is connected to the same buss bar that the grounding system
is connected.

Let me explain. This is a farm, where there is a main meter pole. The
meter has a main disconnect panel under it. There are two pull out fuse
blocks in there, each is 200A (400A service). I dont need half that
amperage, but this was a once a large farm with all sorts of grain
dryers and power consuming stuff. Now, I just run a small farm and dont
need all that much power. But that old fuse panel is still there. I have
two overhead triplex cables connected to one of these pull out fuses.
They feed the barn and garage and other sheds. The house is connected
via underground SE cable and is connected to the other pull out fuse.
THe house and the garage and barn each have separate breaker panels each
have their own MAIN breaker and each has their own grounding system.

Anyhow, getting back to that meter pole panel. The neutral and ground
are bonded in that box. Thats normal. But the house has newer wiring and
this there is that 4th wire (green wire) which does not exist in the
overhead triplex cables to the other buildings.

When I moved here, the electric compamy inspected that panel before they
would turn on the power. They said it was OK, even with that green wire
NOT connected. So, I'm not really concerned about the code so much. But
I still think that green wire should be connected to the ground on that
end. (Mostly for lightning spikes).

In the house, there is a newer breaker panel, which has separate neutral
buss bar and ground buss bar. So in the house they are separated and the
green wire goes to the ground buss along with the house grounding
system. However that green wire does nothing since it's not connected on
the other end.

Back at the meter pole panel. Because there are 3 separate feeds and
some very thick cables due to the 400A service. Therefore, there are no
spare screws (lugs) for this green wire and none will accept another
cable because they are not big enough to double up cables.

So, I'm back to either clamping it to the ground wire, or leaving it
disconnected.

Like I said, the code is not all that important since the power company
said things were OK. Even if it's a technical violation, I know it's
not a hazard. I just think in the event of a lightning surge, the more
grounding the better.

I'm mostly just concerned about connecting the aluminum cable to the
copper one, regarding corrosion issues....

Use a cu/al rated lug to fasten the green wire to the 400 amp can. Use a
bolt and nut thru the lug to a solid (no knockouts in the path and paint
removed from contact area) part of the panel enclosure.
--
Mr.E

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

I thought the meter box and main disconnect are grounded to ground rod/s then neutral and ground bonded together at the main breaker panel. No bond at any sub panels. I think the metal water pipes are also supposed to be grounded to the building electrical system ground. Correct me if I'm wrong but at one time wasn't it allowed by code to use the water supply pipe as the electrical system ground? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ground Monster

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 10:57:58 AM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

I thought the meter box and main disconnect are grounded to ground rod/s then neutral and ground bonded together at the main breaker panel. No bond at any sub panels. I think the metal water pipes are also supposed to be grounded to the building electrical system ground. Correct me if I'm wrong but at one time wasn't it allowed by code to use the water supply pipe as the electrical system ground? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ground Monster

Using an underground metal water pipe as one of the grounding electrodes
is still allowed by code. And metal water piping in the building must
be bonded to the ground system.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 04:58:12 -0600, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:19:04 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

You're right. 3 wires, two are hot, one is neutral. The hots are fine.
The neutral is connected to the same buss bar that the grounding system
is connected.

Let me explain. This is a farm, where there is a main meter pole. The
meter has a main disconnect panel under it. There are two pull out fuse
blocks in there, each is 200A (400A service). I dont need half that
amperage, but this was a once a large farm with all sorts of grain
dryers and power consuming stuff. Now, I just run a small farm and dont
need all that much power. But that old fuse panel is still there. I have
two overhead triplex cables connected to one of these pull out fuses.
They feed the barn and garage and other sheds. The house is connected
via underground SE cable and is connected to the other pull out fuse.
THe house and the garage and barn each have separate breaker panels each
have their own MAIN breaker and each has their own grounding system.

Anyhow, getting back to that meter pole panel. The neutral and ground
are bonded in that box. Thats normal. But the house has newer wiring and
this there is that 4th wire (green wire) which does not exist in the
overhead triplex cables to the other buildings.

When I moved here, the electric compamy inspected that panel before they
would turn on the power. They said it was OK, even with that green wire
NOT connected. So, I'm not really concerned about the code so much. But
I still think that green wire should be connected to the ground on that
end. (Mostly for lightning spikes).

In the house, there is a newer breaker panel, which has separate neutral
buss bar and ground buss bar. So in the house they are separated and the
green wire goes to the ground buss along with the house grounding
system. However that green wire does nothing since it's not connected on
the other end.

Back at the meter pole panel. Because there are 3 separate feeds and
some very thick cables due to the 400A service. Therefore, there are no
spare screws (lugs) for this green wire and none will accept another
cable because they are not big enough to double up cables.

So, I'm back to either clamping it to the ground wire, or leaving it
disconnected.

Like I said, the code is not all that important since the power company
said things were OK. Even if it's a technical violation, I know it's
not a hazard. I just think in the event of a lightning surge, the more
grounding the better.

I'm mostly just concerned about connecting the aluminum cable to the
copper one, regarding corrosion issues....




It should be bonded to the neutral in the enclosure where the main
disconnect resides. Is there a way to bolt another lug to the ground
bar in the main disconnect?

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:57:51 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

I thought the meter box and main disconnect are grounded to ground rod/s then neutral and ground bonded together at the main breaker panel. No bond at any sub panels. I think the metal water pipes are also supposed to be grounded to the building electrical system ground. Correct me if I'm wrong but at one time wasn't it allowed by code to use the water supply pipe as the electrical system ground? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ground Monster

You are right. He clarified his post to say the neutral and ground
were split in the house panel and in that case the ground wire should
go straight from the ground bus in the panel to the neutral/ground bus
in the main disconnect enclosure where the main bonding jumper
resides.
Up until 99 or 02 it was legal to feed panels in separate buildings
with 3 wire and create a new neutral ground bonding jumper there.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:16:23 -0800, "tony944" wrote:

I'm mostly just concerned about connecting the aluminum cable to the
copper one, regarding corrosion issues....



They make split bolts with an interposer that separates the cu and al
but using a lug is a better idea if you can find a way to bolt it to
the bus.

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 12:21:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:57:51 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

I thought the meter box and main disconnect are grounded to ground rod/s then neutral and ground bonded together at the main breaker panel. No bond at any sub panels. I think the metal water pipes are also supposed to be grounded to the building electrical system ground. Correct me if I'm wrong but at one time wasn't it allowed by code to use the water supply pipe as the electrical system ground? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ground Monster

You are right. He clarified his post to say the neutral and ground
were split in the house panel and in that case the ground wire should
go straight from the ground bus in the panel to the neutral/ground bus
in the main disconnect enclosure where the main bonding jumper
resides.
Up until 99 or 02 it was legal to feed panels in separate buildings
with 3 wire and create a new neutral ground bonding jumper there.

I was thinking it may have something to do with ground loops. A star ground eliminates the problems caused by that. I have a feeling that ground loops could cause nuisance tripping of ground fault breakers thus causing a safety issue when a homeowner rips out the GFI's and replaces them with standard breakers. I also wonder if ground loops will trip arc fault breakers? Oh well, I suppose I have some research to do. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 04:58:12 -0600, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:19:04 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:50:35 -0600, wrote:

The underground cable from my house to the meter pole (main disconnect)
was installed before I bought this property. They used 4 wire
underground service entrance cable. Two black (hot), one White stripe
(neutral), and one green (ground).

The green wire is connected to the ground buss bar in the house's panel,
but they never connected it to anything in the meter pole main box. The
house has it's own ground rods (2 of them), but I still think that green
wire should be grounded in that meter pole box, not just left
unconnected.

I can see why they did not connect it. There are no spare ground lugs
(screws). I've been meaning to do something with this, and finally went
to do this job after several years. But there is no place to connect it
as far as the lugs. However, there is the thick (#6) bare copper wire
that goes to the ground rod below that panel, and it's right where this
green wire ends inside that box.

My thought is to just put a split bolt around that bare copper wire and
put the stripped end of the green wire into that split bolt too.

But two questions arise. I know this is a GOOD ground, but is this type
of connection allowed by code. Also, the underground cable is aluminum,
and the ground wire is copper. I dont like the idea of dissimilar
metals, since they corrode. However I can get the split bolt that has a
brass divider, that would separate these two metals.

Actually this is the only option I really have, other than just leaving
it unconnected. (which is how it's been for years).


There should only be 3 wires coming from the transformer to the point
where the ground rod connects in your panel (main bonding jumper)

You could connect them together if you want but do it at both ends. It
is a technical violation but not a particular hazard.

You're right. 3 wires, two are hot, one is neutral. The hots are fine.
The neutral is connected to the same buss bar that the grounding system
is connected.

Let me explain. This is a farm, where there is a main meter pole. The
meter has a main disconnect panel under it. There are two pull out fuse
blocks in there, each is 200A (400A service). I dont need half that
amperage, but this was a once a large farm with all sorts of grain
dryers and power consuming stuff. Now, I just run a small farm and dont
need all that much power. But that old fuse panel is still there. I have
two overhead triplex cables connected to one of these pull out fuses.
They feed the barn and garage and other sheds. The house is connected
via underground SE cable and is connected to the other pull out fuse.
THe house and the garage and barn each have separate breaker panels each
have their own MAIN breaker and each has their own grounding system.

Anyhow, getting back to that meter pole panel. The neutral and ground
are bonded in that box. Thats normal. But the house has newer wiring and
this there is that 4th wire (green wire) which does not exist in the
overhead triplex cables to the other buildings.

When I moved here, the electric compamy inspected that panel before they
would turn on the power. They said it was OK, even with that green wire
NOT connected. So, I'm not really concerned about the code so much. But
I still think that green wire should be connected to the ground on that
end. (Mostly for lightning spikes).

In the house, there is a newer breaker panel, which has separate neutral
buss bar and ground buss bar. So in the house they are separated and the
green wire goes to the ground buss along with the house grounding
system. However that green wire does nothing since it's not connected on
the other end.

Back at the meter pole panel. Because there are 3 separate feeds and
some very thick cables due to the 400A service. Therefore, there are no
spare screws (lugs) for this green wire and none will accept another
cable because they are not big enough to double up cables.

So, I'm back to either clamping it to the ground wire, or leaving it
disconnected.

Like I said, the code is not all that important since the power company
said things were OK. Even if it's a technical violation, I know it's
not a hazard. I just think in the event of a lightning surge, the more
grounding the better.

I'm mostly just concerned about connecting the aluminum cable to the
copper one, regarding corrosion issues....



The neutral must be bonded to the ground at the "main panel" and must
not be bonded at the "sub panels" IIRTCC. According to that rule, the
ground at the pole should be connected to the house ground cable, and
to ground cables for all other buildings if the pole disconnect is
considered the "main panel"

However, if the pole disconnect is not the main panel, then the
ground and neutral would not be bonded at the post, and would be
bonded at each "main panel" in each outbuilding.

Not sure how this is considered in code - anyone out there know "for
sure"?

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 15:30:38 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 12:21:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:

I was thinking it may have something to do with ground loops. A star ground eliminates the problems caused by that. I have a feeling that ground loops could cause nuisance tripping of ground fault breakers thus causing a safety issue when a homeowner rips out the GFI's and replaces them with standard breakers. I also wonder if ground loops will trip arc fault breakers? Oh well, I suppose I have some research to do. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster

Ground loops are not the issue and nothing on the line side of a GFCI
should trip it.
The issue with "regrounding the neutral" is you are going to impose
some current on the grounding conductor and the voltage will rise in
reference to ground level. This will be mitigated when you actually
create another ground reference in the sub panel in a second building
but then you are really not using a separate ground at all.
They still see it as "Objectionable current on the grounding
conductor" so you do not connect at both ends and in the case of the
line side (power company service conductors), you don't have a
grounding conductor at all (just 3 wires)

For most of the life of the NEC they treated a second building as a
separate service in regard to the grounding but they chipped away at
that idea until it disappeared. Now it is just like a sub panel inside
the same building, 4 wire feeder and an isolated neutral. They just
kept the ground rod requirement to create a fresh ground reference for
the equipment grounding bus bar.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:19:00 -0500, wrote:


The neutral must be bonded to the ground at the "main panel" and must
not be bonded at the "sub panels" IIRTCC. According to that rule, the
ground at the pole should be connected to the house ground cable, and
to ground cables for all other buildings if the pole disconnect is
considered the "main panel"

However, if the pole disconnect is not the main panel, then the
ground and neutral would not be bonded at the post, and would be
bonded at each "main panel" in each outbuilding.

Not sure how this is considered in code - anyone out there know "for
sure"?

The pole is where the service disconnect resides and you are right. he
needs the green wire grounded there.
The fault path for anything in the house is now using earth for a
conductor. It might work in a lot of places but it is not legal or
safe.

On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 04:58:40 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


I'm not adding each wire. I'm adding the two separate fused
disconnects on the one service. He has two 200A disconnects.
I can show you new construction here, large homes that have
two 150A panels, right next to each other. Each has a 150A
breaker, the service is 300A. By his description, it sounds
like that is what he has. It's apparently a house plus a
farm.
You can have up to 6 grouped disconnects on a service.

On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 11:03:38 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 04:58:40 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


I'm not adding each wire. I'm adding the two separate fused
disconnects on the one service. He has two 200A disconnects.
I can show you new construction here, large homes that have
two 150A panels, right next to each other. Each has a 150A
breaker, the service is 300A. By his description, it sounds
like that is what he has. It's apparently a house plus a
farm.
You can have up to 6 grouped disconnects on a service.

Do you agree that from the description of the OP, ie two 200A
disconnects on one service that the service is 400A?

On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:19:24 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 11:03:38 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 04:58:40 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


I'm not adding each wire. I'm adding the two separate fused
disconnects on the one service. He has two 200A disconnects.
I can show you new construction here, large homes that have
two 150A panels, right next to each other. Each has a 150A
breaker, the service is 300A. By his description, it sounds
like that is what he has. It's apparently a house plus a
farm.
You can have up to 6 grouped disconnects on a service.

Do you agree that from the description of the OP, ie two 200A
disconnects on one service that the service is 400A?

Sounds right to me. Those old farm "maypoles" were popular ways to get
power around the spread and generally once the service was set, nobody
ever looked at it again since farmers usually can avoid most of the
permitting process. I suppose pulling a permit for a house may have
brought the kind of scrutiny that got him the 4 wire feeder but that
was really only a requirement fairly recently. (99 or 02 maybe)
It is a shame they did not connect the EGC to anything. It defeats the
purpose and exposes him to a hazard. There is no fault path to trip a
breaker other than the earth. Screwing a lug into the can at the
disconnect is better than nothing (scrape off a little paint and use a
star washer) but the right way is to connect directly to the bus bar,
even if that means he has to add another bar, swing over one of the
existing and add a jumper.
Using a split bolt, connecting to the ground electrode conductor is
legal too. Just be sure it is the duplex type with the interposer if
you are mixing cu and al.

On 11/16/2015 11:36 AM, wrote:
....

It does sound like he has 2 parallel service disconnects grouped on
that maypole. That would allow 400a.
On the line side of the service disconnect, it is all up to the power
company what they want to run.
I have seen the PoCo bring the same triplex they use for a 200, to a
320 or 400 service. It is up to the customer to complain that they
have low voltage before the PoCo will act. They are eating the I2R
losses for that smoking power drop. They usually do size an
underground lateral using 310.15(B)(6) but that is still smaller than
you get with the regular 310.16 ampacity table.

They are not really serious about wire size until you get to
commercial because most homeowners greatly overestimate their power
usage ... unless it is Al Gore. ;-)

If you averaged 100a your bill would be almost $2600 a month at .15 a
KWH. The PoCo engineering department can see your bill.
If it got that big, the DEA would be breaking down your door looking
for a grow operation.

In sidebar discussion at the end of the earlier thread where I was
digging for the location of my bad neutral he said he has a "small" farm
w/ only a couple of old tractors baling a little hay for what seems to
be a few head of (presumably?) cattle.

That would seem _way_ excessive service capacity; I wonder if it isn't
actually the same as the service here on a far larger operation that has
a single service off the pole but that goes back up to the top and from
there goes to multiple locations. That certainly would fit more nearly
what he described there.

It'd be possible in a larger dairy operation or hog farrowing facility
or even poultry with heavy milking machine/refrigeration in the former
or HVAC/ventilation loads in the latter, but it certainly doesn't seem
that would be the kind of operation he's got.

I think it is just mis-described meself; a pitchure could shew a lot...

--

On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:07:05 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/16/2015 11:36 AM, wrote:
...

It does sound like he has 2 parallel service disconnects grouped on
that maypole. That would allow 400a.
On the line side of the service disconnect, it is all up to the power
company what they want to run.
I have seen the PoCo bring the same triplex they use for a 200, to a
320 or 400 service. It is up to the customer to complain that they
have low voltage before the PoCo will act. They are eating the I2R
losses for that smoking power drop. They usually do size an
underground lateral using 310.15(B)(6) but that is still smaller than
you get with the regular 310.16 ampacity table.

They are not really serious about wire size until you get to
commercial because most homeowners greatly overestimate their power
usage ... unless it is Al Gore. ;-)

If you averaged 100a your bill would be almost $2600 a month at .15 a
KWH. The PoCo engineering department can see your bill.
If it got that big, the DEA would be breaking down your door looking
for a grow operation.

In sidebar discussion at the end of the earlier thread where I was
digging for the location of my bad neutral he said he has a "small" farm
w/ only a couple of old tractors baling a little hay for what seems to
be a few head of (presumably?) cattle.

That would seem _way_ excessive service capacity; I wonder if it isn't
actually the same as the service here on a far larger operation that has
a single service off the pole but that goes back up to the top and from
there goes to multiple locations. That certainly would fit more nearly
what he described there.

It'd be possible in a larger dairy operation or hog farrowing facility
or even poultry with heavy milking machine/refrigeration in the former
or HVAC/ventilation loads in the latter, but it certainly doesn't seem
that would be the kind of operation he's got.

I think it is just mis-described meself; a pitchure could shew a lot...


If I remeber correctly he said it used to be a much larger operation
with several large grain driers atc in the past - which would very
likely require a full 200 amp service just for the farming operation.
I know quite a few farms (100 acres) with 600 amp services on the
pole. A single large silo unloader can run 20HP.
(thats 20000 watts- at 240 volts thats 83 amps right there.- not
counting the full load starting surge - which can be up to double -
Then there is the milking machine (vacuum pump) which can be upwards
of 20HP as well (usually closer to 10, but depends on the sise of the
operation) PLUS the cooler, ventilation fans, milkhouse heater, feed
mixer, stable cleaner, lights, etc. No, they are not all run at once,
but the silo unloader, ventilation fans, milkhouse heater, milk
cooler, and milking machines could all be running - along with the
lights - in a large dairy operation.

On 11/16/2015 4:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:07:05 -0600, wrote:

On 11/16/2015 11:36 AM, wrote:
...

It does sound like he has 2 parallel service disconnects grouped on
that maypole. That would allow 400a.
On the line side of the service disconnect, it is all up to the power
company what they want to run.
I have seen the PoCo bring the same triplex they use for a 200, to a
320 or 400 service. It is up to the customer to complain that they
have low voltage before the PoCo will act. They are eating the I2R
losses for that smoking power drop. They usually do size an
underground lateral using 310.15(B)(6) but that is still smaller than
you get with the regular 310.16 ampacity table.

They are not really serious about wire size until you get to
commercial because most homeowners greatly overestimate their power
usage ... unless it is Al Gore. ;-)

If you averaged 100a your bill would be almost $2600 a month at .15 a
KWH. The PoCo engineering department can see your bill.
If it got that big, the DEA would be breaking down your door looking
for a grow operation.

In sidebar discussion at the end of the earlier thread where I was
digging for the location of my bad neutral he said he has a "small" farm
w/ only a couple of old tractors baling a little hay for what seems to
be a few head of (presumably?) cattle.

That would seem _way_ excessive service capacity; I wonder if it isn't
actually the same as the service here on a far larger operation that has
a single service off the pole but that goes back up to the top and from
there goes to multiple locations. That certainly would fit more nearly
what he described there.

It'd be possible in a larger dairy operation or hog farrowing facility
or even poultry with heavy milking machine/refrigeration in the former
or HVAC/ventilation loads in the latter, but it certainly doesn't seem
that would be the kind of operation he's got.

I think it is just mis-described meself; a pitchure could shew a lot...


If I remeber correctly he said it used to be a much larger operation
with several large grain driers atc in the past - which would very
likely require a full 200 amp service just for the farming operation.
I know quite a few farms (100 acres) with 600 amp services on the
pole. A single large silo unloader can run 20HP.
(thats 20000 watts- at 240 volts thats 83 amps right there.- not
counting the full load starting surge - which can be up to double -
Then there is the milking machine (vacuum pump) which can be upwards
of 20HP as well (usually closer to 10, but depends on the sise of the
operation) PLUS the cooler, ventilation fans, milkhouse heater, feed
mixer, stable cleaner, lights, etc. No, they are not all run at once,
but the silo unloader, ventilation fans, milkhouse heater, milk
cooler, and milking machines could all be running - along with the
lights - in a large dairy operation.

I don't recall this poster even hinting of any of that kind of an
operation...but it is possible, yes that I suppose some time in the past
it was a larger operation. But the _newest_ equipment he listed is
almost 60 yr old...

--


--

On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:07:05 -0600, dpb wrote:

In sidebar discussion at the end of the earlier thread where I was
digging for the location of my bad neutral he said he has a "small" farm
w/ only a couple of old tractors baling a little hay for what seems to
be a few head of (presumably?) cattle.


That describes my farm NOW, but this was once a large farm operation
with hundreds of acres. I only own a small part of the land it once was.
I bought the portion with the original buildings, including the newer
home and the barns, as well as a really old house that was falling down,
which I demolished.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:22:39 -0500, wrote:

Clare, do you think this will stop this thread? It seems to have a
dysfunctional life of its own.

Won't stop the thread (likely) but at least it gets all the facts in
one place and in a more-or-less organized fashion.

There will still be know-it-all know-nothings that will argue the
point - - - -

And the thread drifted away from the original question that I posted and
was answered a week ago.....
But this is usenet and things rarely run smoothly....

On 11/18/2015 3:29 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:22:39 -0500, wrote:

Clare, do you think this will stop this thread? It seems to have a
dysfunctional life of its own.

Won't stop the thread (likely) but at least it gets all the facts in
one place and in a more-or-less organized fashion.

There will still be know-it-all know-nothings that will argue the
point - - - -

And the thread drifted away from the original question that I posted and
was answered a week ago.....
But this is usenet and things rarely run smoothly....

You are sooo right..



--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster