Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other for
Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back to
the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or Ethernet?

FWIW, it is not out of the question to retire the Ethernet and dedicate
the conduit to the coax - because I put that conduit in before
discovering radio links like Ubiquiti's NanoStation Loco M5
(http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-LOCOM...dp/B004EHSV4W),
which I now have some experience with in another application.

I'd just do that - except it involves laying out $150 for a set of those
devices.
--
Pete Cresswell

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other
for Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back
to the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the
house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or
Ethernet?

FWIW, it is not out of the question to retire the Ethernet and
dedicate the conduit to the coax - because I put that conduit in
before discovering radio links like Ubiquiti's NanoStation Loco M5
(http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-LOCOM...dp/B004EHSV4W),
which I now have some experience with in another application.

I'd just do that - except it involves laying out $150 for a set of
those devices.

I doubt that code allows low voltage and AC in the same coax. Coax and ethernet
should not be a problem.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 9:35:14 AM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other
for Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back
to the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the
house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or
Ethernet?

FWIW, it is not out of the question to retire the Ethernet and
dedicate the conduit to the coax - because I put that conduit in
before discovering radio links like Ubiquiti's NanoStation Loco M5
(http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-LOCOM...dp/B004EHSV4W),
which I now have some experience with in another application.

I'd just do that - except it involves laying out $150 for a set of
those devices.


Are the conduits metal and burried in the ground?

Consider the effects of nearby lightning strikes.

Mark

On 9/30/2015 6:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other for
Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back to
the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or Ethernet?

IIRC, AC and COAX are supposed to be separated by 2 inches.

Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning strikes.
Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or, protect the
ethernet drop accordingly.

FWIW, it is not out of the question to retire the Ethernet and dedicate
the conduit to the coax - because I put that conduit in before
discovering radio links like Ubiquiti's NanoStation Loco M5
(http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-LOCOM...dp/B004EHSV4W),
which I now have some experience with in another application.

I'd just do that - except it involves laying out $150 for a set of those
devices.

Don Y wrote:
On 9/30/2015 6:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other
for Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back
to the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the
house). Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or
Ethernet?

IIRC, AC and COAX are supposed to be separated by 2 inches.

Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning
strikes. Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or,
protect the ethernet drop accordingly.

Should anything except direct lightning strikes be a problem if the shed ground
is through the AC line from the house panel? A grounding rod at the shed would
probably not be a good idea.

Per :
Are the conduits metal and burried in the ground?

Consider the effects of nearby lightning strikes.

PVC, buried.

I am figuring on a ground rod for the antenna at the shed.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Bob F:
A grounding rod at the shed would
probably not be a good idea.

Oops.... So much for my plan to put a grounding rod in at the shed.

But it seems like there has to be a ground somewhere for something metal
sticking up into the air, right?
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Don Y:
Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning strikes.
Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or, protect the
ethernet drop accordingly.

OK, now MakOlber's comment is starting to soak in.

Since I know nothing about fiber - but have experience with those $150
radio links described previously - it sounds like I am going to retire
the Ethernet and dedicate that conduit to coax.

The remaining question seems to be grounding.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 09/30/2015 08:35 AM, Bob F wrote:
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other
for Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back
to the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the
house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or
Ethernet?

FWIW, it is not out of the question to retire the Ethernet and
dedicate the conduit to the coax - because I put that conduit in
before discovering radio links like Ubiquiti's NanoStation Loco M5
(http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-LOCOM...dp/B004EHSV4W),
which I now have some experience with in another application.

I'd just do that - except it involves laying out $150 for a set of
those devices.

I doubt that code allows low voltage and AC in the same coax. Coax and ethernet
should not be a problem.




Agree 100% plus the AC could very possibly interfere with the signal.


BTW: As far as grounding goes...to prevent a possible induction loop
it's best to ground only at the feed end. (At least that is how I was
taught when we installed industrial grade UPS's .)

I doubt the code would allow the AC line to share a conduit wih anything.
If that was not the probelm, I would not have any problem with the coax and
AC in the same coax as far as the signals go.

Run it with the ethernet. Ground the antenna coax where it comes down to
the ground. Unless the TV antenna is over 30 feet or so you probably will
not have any lightning problems , especially if it is shadowed by trees or
electrical lines.


"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other for
Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back to
the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or Ethernet?

I would keep the low voltage stuff together (ethernet and coax).

Steve

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:23:34 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other for
Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back to
the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the house).

Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or Ethernet?

FWIW, it is not out of the question to retire the Ethernet and dedicate
the conduit to the coax - because I put that conduit in before
discovering radio links like Ubiquiti's NanoStation Loco M5
(http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-LOCOM...dp/B004EHSV4W),
which I now have some experience with in another application.

I'd just do that - except it involves laying out $150 for a set of those
devices.

Run the coax with the ethernet. It may be possible to put it in a
"duct" with AC "cables" but not with "conductors" in a "conduit".
I doubt interference would ever be a problem but you would have code
issues.
As for your lightning protection, you do want an electrode at the
shed/antenna and that should be bonded to the electrode at the house.
Driving 2 isolated rods is just asking for trouble.
Use a ground block on the coax at the entrance to the house and surge
protection at the TVs. It is best if this entrance is at the same
place where the power comes into the house so you can use short
conductors to the ground electrode.
In Florida it is not unusual to see "drain" wires connecting the
frames of ethernet equipment on both ends of the ethernet cable along
with ferrite beads on the ethernet cables when you are going to
another building.

You quickly find out "ground voltage" is not the same everywhere.
Ground shift in a lightning event can be very large,
You want to mitigate that with bonding.

On 9/30/2015 7:20 AM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 9/30/2015 6:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Got two conduits going out to the garden shed: one for AC, the other
for Ethernet.

Now I want to run coax for a TV antenna out there so that I can mount
the antenna on the wall of the garden shed and route the signal back
to the house (making it basically trivial to make adjustments to the
antenna - as opposed to having to climb up on to the roof of the
house). Which conduit would you choose to share the coax with: AC or
Ethernet?

IIRC, AC and COAX are supposed to be separated by 2 inches.

Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning
strikes. Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or,
protect the ethernet drop accordingly.

Should anything except direct lightning strikes be a problem if the shed ground
is through the AC line from the house panel? A grounding rod at the shed would
probably not be a good idea.

Ground is never ground. A nearby lightning strike can have "ground"
bounce, considerably. Note that there is a huge magnetic event
("EMP") associated with a lightning strike. This "induces" voltages in
conductors -- even buried ones!

Note that these "disturbances" can follow conductors into equipment
attached at both ends.

I've arranged for each of the network drops, here, that is accessible
"on the outside of the house" (though still part of this same building)
to have protection from lightning -- as well as tampering/vandalism
(e.g., you wouldn't want someone to "do something" to an accessible
ethernet drop and take down some/all of your network infrastructure
because they were of a hostile intent!

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
Ground is never ground. A nearby lightning strike can have "ground"
bounce, considerably. Note that there is a huge magnetic event
("EMP") associated with a lightning strike. This "induces" voltages in
conductors -- even buried ones!

Note that these "disturbances" can follow conductors into equipment
attached at both ends.

I've arranged for each of the network drops, here, that is accessible
"on the outside of the house" (though still part of this same building)
to have protection from lightning -- as well as tampering/vandalism
(e.g., you wouldn't want someone to "do something" to an accessible
ethernet drop and take down some/all of your network infrastructure
because they were of a hostile intent!


Right, there are two ways to do it, half-assed and hope for the best. That
will stop some of the slight misses. Then you can do it the right way and
probably spend more than the equipment it is worth.

One of the better way is to make sure all the ground rods are tied together
with wires as short and direct as possiable.


Just check the insurance and see how much is covered by the lightning.

On 9/30/2015 2:27 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
Ground is never ground. A nearby lightning strike can have "ground"
bounce, considerably. Note that there is a huge magnetic event
("EMP") associated with a lightning strike. This "induces" voltages in
conductors -- even buried ones!

Note that these "disturbances" can follow conductors into equipment
attached at both ends.

I've arranged for each of the network drops, here, that is accessible
"on the outside of the house" (though still part of this same building)
to have protection from lightning -- as well as tampering/vandalism
(e.g., you wouldn't want someone to "do something" to an accessible
ethernet drop and take down some/all of your network infrastructure
because they were of a hostile intent!


Right, there are two ways to do it, half-assed and hope for the best. That
will stop some of the slight misses. Then you can do it the right way and
probably spend more than the equipment it is worth.

One of the better way is to make sure all the ground rods are tied together
with wires as short and direct as possiable.

Just check the insurance and see how much is covered by the lightning.

In my case, I also have to consider "malicious acts" -- what if a
thief/vandal decided to use the *accessible* network drop as a means
of injecting something "unexpected" (malicious packets, high voltage
disturbances, etc.) *into* my control fabric in the hope of
confusing/crashing the devices that govern the control of the
house (e.g., alarm system, among others).

The same reasoning extends to my avoidance of wireless protocols
(someone can eavesdrop or inject traffic without having to be
*on* the property -- can also "jam" my communications resulting
in a denial of service style attack.

When I design gaming (gambling) devices, this is a very real
possibility: "patrons" hoping that by doing something
"unexpected" they can "trick" a machine to "pay out" when
it otherwise would not.

Obviously, if such an exploit was "productive" (for the thief!),
it wouldn't take long for word of it to "make the circuit" and
render the gaming device "undesireable" (i.e., lost sales!)

On 9/30/2015 7:26 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:
Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning strikes.
Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or, protect the
ethernet drop accordingly.

OK, now MakOlber's comment is starting to soak in.

Since I know nothing about fiber - but have experience with those $150
radio links described previously - it sounds like I am going to retire
the Ethernet and dedicate that conduit to coax.

What sort of "content" are you relying on the coax to deliver?
Can you, instead, use a digital link and push "data" and whatever
media (for which you were hoping to use the coax) down the same
"data link"? I've wired the house so I can deliver all "services"
(phone, video, audio, data) down one set of "network" cables
instead of relying on a specific cable for a specific use.

The remaining question seems to be grounding.

Per philo:
BTW: As far as grounding goes...to prevent a possible induction loop
it's best to ground only at the feed end.

The "Feed" end being the end where the signal is consumed, right?

i.e. the opposite end from the antenna...?
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Don Y:
What sort of "content" are you relying on the coax to deliver?
Can you, instead, use a digital link and push "data" and whatever

OTA digital television.

Now that you have said it, I *could* move my SiliconDust HD Homerun
tuners out to the shed and let Ethernet do the rest - since I almost
never watch television in realtime; almost always watch the recording
even it it's only a couple minutes behind.

We already have an antenna on the house roof - it's just that it does
not do channel 6 very well.

The plan was to replace that antenna with one that is up to the task.
TV Fool said to use a "Small" antenna. I disregarded that and got
"Medium".... worked OK for a couple weeks, but then channel 12 started
dropping out and I ordered a "Large" antenna.

Little did I know.... "Large" turned out to be more like "Humongous" -
as in 32# and 11 x 7 feet.

My thinking is that such a large antenna is better left on the shed
because it's size/weight/wind resistance seem to ask for aiming issues
after a good storm and I can handle that myself with it on the side of
the garden shed - just walk out and twiddle it until my tablet shows the
right numbers - whereas I'd have to hire somebody to climb up on the
roof of the house (money and turnaround time...Not to mention the
communication issues while they're up on the roof and I'm down on the
ground looking at the numbers....).

Leave the big boy on the shed, let the rooftop feed the TVs directly and
live with channel 6 not being that wonderful.... Definitely possibility
there.

Only thing left to obsess about is how the HD Homerun tuners will
tolerate single digit temps in the dead of winter.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 9/30/2015 4:56 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:
What sort of "content" are you relying on the coax to deliver?
Can you, instead, use a digital link and push "data" and whatever

OTA digital television.

Now that you have said it, I *could* move my SiliconDust HD Homerun
tuners out to the shed and let Ethernet do the rest - since I almost
never watch television in realtime; almost always watch the recording
even it it's only a couple minutes behind.

We already have an antenna on the house roof - it's just that it does
not do channel 6 very well.

The plan was to replace that antenna with one that is up to the task.
TV Fool said to use a "Small" antenna. I disregarded that and got
"Medium".... worked OK for a couple weeks, but then channel 12 started
dropping out and I ordered a "Large" antenna.

Little did I know.... "Large" turned out to be more like "Humongous" -
as in 32# and 11 x 7 feet.

My thinking is that such a large antenna is better left on the shed
because it's size/weight/wind resistance seem to ask for aiming issues
after a good storm and I can handle that myself with it on the side of
the garden shed - just walk out and twiddle it until my tablet shows the
right numbers - whereas I'd have to hire somebody to climb up on the
roof of the house (money and turnaround time...Not to mention the
communication issues while they're up on the roof and I'm down on the
ground looking at the numbers....).

Leave the big boy on the shed, let the rooftop feed the TVs directly and
live with channel 6 not being that wonderful.... Definitely possibility
there.

Only thing left to obsess about is how the HD Homerun tuners will
tolerate single digit temps in the dead of winter.

In my case, I ran two "feeds" for everything:
- two POTS lines
- two CATV
- two "rooftop" antenna (TV and radio)
- two broadband
into the "equipment closet". There, located "converters" to get
everything to a digital form that could be "served" wherever needed.
For TV, a pair of (dual tuner) HD HomeRun's.

Network switch is also located in that "closet" so each "converter"
can have a dedicated line into the switch -- no foreseeable bandwidth
issues AND keeps all that kit hidden so it's not cluttering up
the place.

Per Don Y:
There, located "converters" to get
everything to a digital form that could be "served" wherever needed.
For TV, a pair of (dual tuner) HD HomeRun's.


I am warming up to this idea.

The one loose end is the HD HomeRun's tolerance for single-digit
temperatures.

Just posted to Silicon Dust's forum, so I should have an answer within a
day or two max.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 9/30/2015 6:28 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:
There, located "converters" to get
everything to a digital form that could be "served" wherever needed.
For TV, a pair of (dual tuner) HD HomeRun's.

I am warming up to this idea.

I got tired of seeing all sorts of "bits of kit" around the house:
DVD players, cordless phones, STB's, mini-stereos, bookshelf
speakers, etc. Move all of the things that are "user interfaces"
(e.g., a DVD player needs to present the user with a TRAY into
which to place the DVD plus a *remote* with which to control
the player) out of the way and just concentrate on "content".

The one loose end is the HD HomeRun's tolerance for single-digit
temperatures.

Dunno. In my case, it's in "living space". And, single digits are
pretty rare, here -- more like *triple* digits! :-/

Just posted to Silicon Dust's forum, so I should have an answer within a
day or two max.

Please post back their response!

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:26:43 -0400,
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per Don Y:
Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning strikes.
Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or, protect the
ethernet drop accordingly.

OK, now MakOlber's comment is starting to soak in.

Since I know nothing about fiber - but have experience with those $150
radio links described previously - it sounds like I am going to retire
the Ethernet and dedicate that conduit to coax.

Your decision seems premature. Why not run the new line in your
conduit with the ethernet and see how they both work at the same time.

I predict they will both work fine and spending 150 will be a waste of
150. In addition wired connections are more reliable and often faster
than wireless, even when the wireless specs allow for a maximum that is
just as fast as wired. Maximum is not always (rarely?) achieved.

The remaining question seems to be grounding.

On 09/30/2015 06:35 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per philo:
BTW: As far as grounding goes...to prevent a possible induction loop
it's best to ground only at the feed end.

The "Feed" end being the end where the signal is consumed, right?

i.e. the opposite end from the antenna...?




My experience is only with UPS's so I will tell you what I know about them.


When a UPS is installed it must be well grounded.

Any equipment connected to it must rely on the (grounded) UPS for it's
ground and not grounded separately.



So...if this same grounding technique were applied to other than UPS
applications it would mean that the ground should be at the antenna
end...however that is a different situation in that the equipment is
probably not on a UPS and if any of it has a standard three prong
(grounded) plug, I would of course not remove the ground pin.




That said the only grounding problems I've heard of were in very dry
climates (such as the deserts of Texas).

Some of the vendors there mentioned that ground rods driven into dry
sand were often equivalent to a totally non-grounded system. They'd have
to pour water onto the ground rods.


That was a number of years ago and maybe they have a better method now.


Even here in Wisconsin where the ground is always wet, the grounding
regulation has changed from (I think) six feet of ground rod...to a
total of 16 feet. When my wiring was upgraded recently the guy put in
two, 8' ground rods.

On 09/30/2015 09:28 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:
There, located "converters" to get
everything to a digital form that could be "served" wherever needed.
For TV, a pair of (dual tuner) HD HomeRun's.


I am warming up to this idea.

The one loose end is the HD HomeRun's tolerance for single-digit
temperatures.

Just posted to Silicon Dust's forum, so I should have an answer within a
day or two max.


Worst case, put the HDHomeRun in an insulated picnic cooler...maybe throw in a small night light for added heat.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:43:37 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:26:43 -0400,
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per Don Y:
Ethernet is also a potential problem due to exposure to lightning strikes.
Consider running optical fiber to bridge buildings. Or, protect the
ethernet drop accordingly.

OK, now MakOlber's comment is starting to soak in.

Since I know nothing about fiber - but have experience with those $150
radio links described previously - it sounds like I am going to retire
the Ethernet and dedicate that conduit to coax.

Your decision seems premature. Why not run the new line in your
conduit with the ethernet and see how they both work at the same time.

I predict they will both work fine and spending 150 will be a waste of
150. In addition wired connections are more reliable and often faster
than wireless, even when the wireless specs allow for a maximum that is
just as fast as wired. Maximum is not always (rarely?) achieved.

The remaining question seems to be grounding.

From what I see, it depends on what you mean by working fine. The
focus is on the negative possibilities from using Ethernet due to
a 5 sigma event, not everyday operation. In that case, you wouldn't
see that it's not fine until it's too late. But if it were me, I
agree I'd just use a wired connection and properly protect it from lightning.
That is assuming it can be easily pulled. If you had to run new conduit,
then it would be a different story. There are already cables running
into the typical house, eg AC, phone, cable, and we live with that.