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#41
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Steve W. wrote:
. wrote: On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars for cash" BS. Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance will be terrible. |
#42
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
mike posted for all of us...
OR we could just Fine them billions and fritter it away wherever such fines are frittered? Just like all the fines imposed on Co's and people. Found money for the gov't. Like the tobacco Co's the states get all this money and what exactly do they do with it. If education is it having an impact? Should be for the medical costs. Instead that is spread amongst the ratepayers or taxpayers through third party payers. How to fix IDK... -- Tekkie |
#43
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In article ,
Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM.../VW-Caught-Che ating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...oftware-to-che at-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? I'd like to know how the EPA found out about this hack |
#45
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
trader_4 posted for all of us...
Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts. Another loon. When has an emission issue ever had anything to do with an auto insurer paying a claim? Emissions compliance doesn't cause accidents. +1 Huh? -- Tekkie |
#46
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#47
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 4:15 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
PA had twice yearly inspections but now has yearly . I remember all the uproar over what the garages had to buy, the 3 gas analyzers, dynamometers, leased or privately owned... It was a circus. I think it was a politicians dream. (It was in NJ). I remember customers that had notorious vehicles with bad emissions; blowing blue smoke, heavy fuel smell, missing engines. A lot of "beaters". The original twice yearly was a safety inspection. That was a joke. You could get inspected so easily or you could get scammed by shops selling un-needed repairs. The shop I went to was owned by an old guy that could not lift a wheel if he had to. checking the brakes was pushing on the pedal while scraping off the old sticker. Before that, I took three cars to a shop in one day and every one needed headlight adjustment for $2. Never mind that the ball joints they never checked were loose. Quick easy money. Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and manufacturing has left? My gripe is that counties around major city's have testing while the rest of the state doesn't. What, the wind doesn't blow through the whole state? There are also exemptions if the cost of repairs exceed a threshold. Claire would remember PCV valves and tune ups... |
#48
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#49
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#50
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 3:15 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. Wow, you are remarkably uninformed, if not downright stupid. Educate yourself, if possible, by reading about Clair Patterson, a scientist who was attempting to establish the true age of the Earth and serendipitously, by the failure of his early attempts to create a clean room, discovered the grave neurotoxin danger poisoning us all. |
#51
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 2:33:22 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article , Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM.../VW-Caught-Che ating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...oftware-to-che at-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? I'd like to know how the EPA found out about this hack Some boss at VW ****ed off an employee. Things like that happen all the time. If you own a company and you're doing something that may be illegal, don't mistreat your employees. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle BTDT Monster |
#52
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...
The original twice yearly was a safety inspection. That was a joke. You could get inspected so easily or you could get scammed by shops selling un-needed repairs. The shop I went to was owned by an old guy that could not lift a wheel if he had to. checking the brakes was pushing on the pedal while scraping off the old sticker. Before that, I took three cars to a shop in one day and every one needed headlight adjustment for $2. Never mind that the ball joints they never checked were loose. Quick easy money. True, but then again we had a reputable shop. -- Tekkie |
#53
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 5:15:13 PM UTC-4, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 1:23 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:34:45 -0500, "." wrote: When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself. Spot checking of modified vehicles at large "car shows" has been promised, and reported. I must have missed that line. Where and when was that again? And if there is any truth to it, it's a total waste of taxpayer money. The number of cars involved is insignificant in the total universe of cars. Just because your car is registered as a 1927 model "T" ford does not mean it is exempt from emissions testing if it has a 2009 Chevy LT between the frame rails. No kidding. Officially it needs to meet the requirements for the 2009 vehicle the LT was originally supplied for (determined by the engine number). You don't say. Sounds incredibly dumb, even for what govt has become. Sending inspectors out to see what engine is really in your model T? |
#54
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#55
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 14:48:50 -0400, Jan Alter
wrote: On 9/19/2015 2:21 PM, sms wrote: On 9/19/2015 10:36 AM, Jan Alter wrote: snip I had one of the first VW Rabbits in 1978. After about 48,000 miles and about 4 years later, I was noticing significant oil usage, about a quart every 500 miles. VW told me it was acceptable. Finally, I couldn't deal with that response and paid the $125 VW wanted to have new valve stem seals installed when they gave me their diagnosis to what was happening. Was it a California Rabbit? I had a 49 state Rabbit (1979) and never burned oil. I moved to California and it seemed that everyone with a California Rabbit had the oil burning problem. People driving around with cases of oil in their cars. As I recall, the issue was that VW did not change the valve stem seal material when they went from leaded fuel to unleaded fuel. My Rabbit used leaded gasoline. The lead apparently lubricated the valve stem seals and prevented them from deteriorating. VW finally was forced to fix the problem but the feds got them because the excessive oil burning was putting the vehicles out of compliance with emissions standards, not because of the oil burning per se. I didn't get new valve stem seals since my car never burned oil. Mine was a Pennsylvania Rabbit. I don't recall that the government was suing because of out of compliance emission standards, but your description sounds plausible. From what I have seen of the practices of many car companies I would say maybe it would be a good practice to buy our cars used, wait a few years to see if any problems develop or what secrets that the company new about become revealed. Part of the reason the last NEW vehicle I've ever owned was built in 1976. |
#56
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:36:33 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote: posted for all of us... Then how do you explain the FACT that todays engines - 1)produce higher spedific output than engines in the past 2) Consume fewer gallons of gas per unit distance travelled AND 3) produce lower exhaut emissions -than the engines of only a few years back - muchless the "uncontrolled" engines of the 50s and 60s, and the early emission engines of the 70s and 80s? VW will just have to step up to the plate and spend in retrofits what they should have spent in initial design and production - plus. Wise business decision... Why do they do this? It would be a great subject of an independent analysis. Weren't they owned by Chrysler at the start of this? VW has NEVER been owned by Chrysler, nor has Chrysler been owned by VW |
#57
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:28:20 -0500, "." wrote:
On 9/19/2015 1:35 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:57:04 -0500, "." wrote: In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap off the road. If only there were any documentation to support that claim. Well, as a mechanic back then, I can assure you I failed a LOT of dangerous cars, repaired many of them, and scrapped almost as many. As is and would continue to be done innumerable times everyday by mechanics despite any lack of vehicle safety testing as has historically been required by the states. Personally, I cut back turning wrenches considerably in '76 and by '80 had discontinued the practice entirely (I still tinker) having landed an engineering position with a distributor of major heavy equipment and industrial engines. Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key. My comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. Which here in Ontario only require safety checks for transfer, or if older than a certain age, depending on the insurance company, to get or maintain insurance coverage. As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc) It still is. Tell me how the average hack can adjust the timing on his 2002 Ford Taurus 3.0 32 valve V6??? Or even adjust the mixture? Fuel additives and larger injectors can defeat the effectiveness of emission controls, not that they'll necessarily increase power. Bigger injectors will just be dialed back by the computer as the O2 sensors report a richer than optimum mixture. Too big and the engine will go into "limp mode" because the engine remains too rich even with the calibration at lean limit. Power will suffer. Pull off any number (EGR, PCV, Sensor ...) of wires, hoses, or lines; one could also easily have multiple devices either fail or disabled (that don't prevent the engines from running) and significantly decrease the efficiency, and increase the pollution output, of the engine. Yes, but it will turn on the CEL and in many cases prevent the engine from starting, even if it will run after starting. ANd it will run like crap when it runs. NO incentive to do it. so that what left the manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same. And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were an insignificant percentage of the motoring public. You would be surprised how many Olds 350 rockets back in the mid seventies had the timing significantly altered to eliminate overheating when pulling a trailer, or how many "super six" mopars had the carburetion and timing adjusted off-spec to get rid of "driveability problems" - and how many "lean burn" mopars were "converted" to non-lean-burn without changing the camshaft (which was required if you were going to be anywhere CLOSE to passing emissions) and how many AIR systems were removed from GM engines - and how many EGR systems were disconnected ---- just for starters. (under the mistaken idea that they could get better mileage by simply removing them) I'm only surprised at the length of your run-on sentence. I worked tune-up and electrical in '74-'76 at a Mopar dealer. Remember the red, sometimes off white, idle mixture limiting, plastic stops that covered the screw heads on Carter's (which also had an issue with warping, requiring a retro-fit brace)? Periodic rough idle complaints on new cars were sometimes addressed by first subjecting such engines to a full Sun Scope (on a rail) diagnostic. Were no issues found, I would remove them, as emissions testing was neither available nor required. Never once had a comeback or complaint. Used to remove the limit caps, adjust to spec (or modified spec) and then replace the caps, as required by law. We did the adjustment using the exhaust gas analyzer that was part of the Sun, Allen, Marquette, or Rotunda diagnostic scope I was using at the time. Quite a few were off spec from the factory. AMC,Chrysler, Mazda and Toyota dealershipsduring that time period, as well as independent repair shops The numbers WERE significant.\ No they were not. "Cleaner air" evolved from unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, fuel injection, and overall drive train computer management of hundreds of millions, not the hobbyists' thousands, of vehicles on US roads. It wasn't hobbyists - it was "hack mechanics" who didn't know anything about emmission controls and defeated them in an attempt to "solve" problems. - some real and some immagined. |
#58
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= wrote:
Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and manufacturing has left? There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was taken out of gas. That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the scariest thing you can imagine. When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look back. You can say some bad things about the EPA and some of them are true, but the reduction in lead exposure has been one of the biggest benefits to health in this country. It probably hasn't resulted in the air smelling or looking any better (and feedback control of fuel mixture has) but it's been a big deal. My gripe is that counties around major city's have testing while the rest of the state doesn't. What, the wind doesn't blow through the whole state? Depends on the state. LA is an interesting example... LA sort of has its own weather system in the basin and smog in the basin doesn't blow away, it just sits there and people stew in it. New York isn't like that... smog in New York turns into smog in New Jersey. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#59
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#60
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#61
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? I'm pretty sure VW will be required to put some kind of "code" in their "fixed" system's computer. If you don't get it fixed they will know at the inspection station that it's not fixed and will fail you. |
#62
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#63
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 14:35:12 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:57:04 -0500, "." wrote: On 9/19/2015 12:46 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." wrote: Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications. In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap off the road. If only there were any documentation to support that claim. Well, as a mechanic back then, I can assure you I failed a LOT of dangerous cars, repaired many of them, and scrapped almost as many. Yet somehow all those dangerous cars had been driving around just fine for the weeks and months before you and the state forced them off the road. Here's a typical article. Note that there is not a shred of EVIDENCE presented that all these safety inspections do anything to improve safety. Just the usual lip flapping by the people who rake in the money. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...r-inspections/ But if you like these safety inspections for cars, how about we institute mandatory gvt safety inspections of everyone's home. After all, many people get hurt or killed in their homes every year. Shouldn't we be mandating that you be forced to allow a gvt approved inspector to come into your home once a year, paw thru all your stuff and demand you throw out anything they think is dangerous, fix anything they think is "substandard and potentially dangerous" and otherwise conform to the gvt's standard of how a home should be? Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key. My comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. Which here in Ontario only require safety checks for transfer, or if older than a certain age, depending on the insurance company, to get or maintain insurance coverage. As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc) It still is. Tell me how the average hack can adjust the timing on his 2002 Ford Taurus 3.0 32 valve V6??? Or even adjust the mixture? so that what left the manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same. And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were an insignificant percentage of the motoring public. You would be surprised how many Olds 350 rockets back in the mid seventies had the timing significantly altered to eliminate overheating when pulling a trailer, or how many "super six" mopars had the carburetion and timing adjusted off-spec to get rid of "driveability problems" - and how many "lean burn" mopars were "converted" to non-lean-burn without changing the camshaft (which was required if you were going to be anywhere CLOSE to passing emissions) and how many AIR systems were removed from GM engines - and how many EGR systems were disconnected ---- just for starters. (under the mistaken idea that they could get better mileage by simply removing them) The numbers WERE significant. With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but a money-grab - Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a "questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the road. Again, my comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. And "selective enforcement" can be, and is, applied to private passenger vehicles as well - at least here in Ontario. |
#64
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message ... On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 14:35:12 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:57:04 -0500, "." wrote: On 9/19/2015 12:46 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." wrote: Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications. In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap off the road. If only there were any documentation to support that claim. Well, as a mechanic back then, I can assure you I failed a LOT of dangerous cars, repaired many of them, and scrapped almost as many. Yet somehow all those dangerous cars had been driving around just fine for the weeks and months before you and the state forced them off the road. Here's a typical article. Note that there is not a shred of EVIDENCE presented that all these safety inspections do anything to improve safety. Just the usual lip flapping by the people who rake in the money. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...r-inspections/ But if you like these safety inspections for cars, how about we institute mandatory gvt safety inspections of everyone's home. After all, many people get hurt or killed in their homes every year. Shouldn't we be mandating that you be forced to allow a gvt approved inspector to come into your home once a year, paw thru all your stuff and demand you throw out anything they think is dangerous, fix anything they think is "substandard and potentially dangerous" and otherwise conform to the gvt's standard of how a home should be? And make you pay for the service. |
#65
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:08:29 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= wrote: Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and manufacturing has left? There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was taken out of gas. That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the scariest thing you can imagine. When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look back. You can say some bad things about the EPA and some of them are true, but the reduction in lead exposure has been one of the biggest benefits to health in this country. It probably hasn't resulted in the air smelling or looking any better (and feedback control of fuel mixture has) but it's been a big deal. My gripe is that counties around major city's have testing while the rest of the state doesn't. What, the wind doesn't blow through the whole state? Depends on the state. LA is an interesting example... LA sort of has its own weather system in the basin and smog in the basin doesn't blow away, it just sits there and people stew in it. New York isn't like that... smog in New York turns into smog in New Jersey. --scott -- Was that battery plant in Leads, Alabamastan? That place was closed years ago and I think is one of those Superfund sites. I searched a little for it but didn't find the information online. I do remember that horribly polluted neighborhood, "Love Canal" in Niagara Falls, New York. It was all over the news yyears ago. o_O [8~{} Uncle Lead Monster |
#66
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:26:34 -0500, "." wrote:
On 9/19/2015 7:38 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:28:20 -0500, "." wrote: Fuel additives and larger injectors can defeat the effectiveness of emission controls, not that they'll necessarily increase power. Bigger injectors will just be dialed back by the computer as the O2 sensors report a richer than optimum mixture. Too big and the engine will go into "limp mode" because the engine remains too rich even with the calibration at lean limit. Power will suffer. You questioned how one could simply defeat emission controls. You were provided with effective examples. Pull off any number (EGR, PCV, Sensor ...) of wires, hoses, or lines; one could also easily have multiple devices either fail or disabled (that don't prevent the engines from running) and significantly decrease the efficiency, and increase the pollution output, of the engine. Yes, but it will turn on the CEL and in many cases prevent the engine from starting, even if it will run after starting. ANd it will run like crap when it runs. NO incentive to do it. Again, you questioned how one could simply defeat emission controls. You were provided with effective examples. so that what left the manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same. And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were an insignificant percentage of the motoring public. You would be surprised how many Olds 350 rockets back in the mid seventies had the timing significantly altered to eliminate overheating when pulling a trailer, or how many "super six" mopars had the carburetion and timing adjusted off-spec to get rid of "driveability problems" - and how many "lean burn" mopars were "converted" to non-lean-burn without changing the camshaft (which was required if you were going to be anywhere CLOSE to passing emissions) and how many AIR systems were removed from GM engines - and how many EGR systems were disconnected ---- just for starters. (under the mistaken idea that they could get better mileage by simply removing them) I'm only surprised at the length of your run-on sentence. I worked tune-up and electrical in '74-'76 at a Mopar dealer. Remember the red, sometimes off white, idle mixture limiting, plastic stops that covered the screw heads on Carter's (which also had an issue with warping, requiring a retro-fit brace)? Periodic rough idle complaints on new cars were sometimes addressed by first subjecting such engines to a full Sun Scope (on a rail) diagnostic. Were no issues found, I would remove them, as emissions testing was neither available nor required. Never once had a comeback or complaint. Used to remove the limit caps, adjust to spec (or modified spec) and then replace the caps, as required by law. We did the adjustment using the exhaust gas analyzer that was part of the Sun, Allen, Marquette, or Rotunda diagnostic scope I was using at the time. Quite a few were off spec from the factory. "Periodic rough idle complaints on new cars ..." I knew I heard that somewhere. After verifying everything else was within spec, and given that emission testing was not mandatory, the scope, a vacuum gauge, and a tach was all that was really necessary for an experienced mechanic to adjust the idle mixture. AMC,Chrysler, Mazda and Toyota dealershipsduring that time period, as well as independent repair shops The numbers WERE significant.\ No they were not. "Cleaner air" evolved from unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, fuel injection, and overall drive train computer management of hundreds of millions, not the hobbyists' thousands, of vehicles on US roads. It wasn't hobbyists - it was "hack mechanics" who didn't know anything about emmission controls and defeated them in an attempt to "solve" problems. - some real and some immagined. Laughable ignorance. No, what led to cleaner air was unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, multiport fuel injection and overall drive train computer management (MAF, MAP, IAT ... sensors, among others) of HUNDREDS of millions of cars replacing the archaic Kettering ignition, centrifugal spark advance, coil choke-manifold vacuum-non linear venturi based carbureted engines. Sad that you don't seem to know and understand something that fundamental. Exactly what are you trying to say??? My reply was to say there were many instances of people - hobbyists and mechanics alike, screwing with emmission controls in an attempt to defeat them and get better mileage and power, and getting (usually) neither. Nowhere did I even suggest any of that had any positive effect on emmission reductions. What "laighable ignorance" are you talking about??? Of course it was " unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, multiport fuel injection and overall drive train computer management (MAF, MAP, IAT .... sensors, among others) of HUNDREDS of millions of cars replacing the archaic Kettering ignition, centrifugal spark advance, coil choke-manifold vacuum-non linear venturi based carbureted engines" that made the difference. Where did I ever suggest otherwize?? Or are you saying the emission control inspections were not instrumental in reducing emmissions? They WERE for a short period of time, partly by catching the vehicles that were "screwed with" by hobbyists and "hack mechanics" - but they have become virtually redundant today because the sophisticated engine management systems can pretty well tell you if the vehicle is running within design specs with a cheap OBD2 code reader - or even your cell phone with the proper software and OBD2 code reader adapter. No idea who or what you are since you hide your identity. I was a carreer proffessional mechanic for years, as well as an automotive technology instructor at both secondary and post-secondary (trade) level. |
#67
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:58:26 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:08:29 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= wrote: Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and manufacturing has left? There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was taken out of gas. That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the scariest thing you can imagine. When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look back. You can say some bad things about the EPA and some of them are true, but the reduction in lead exposure has been one of the biggest benefits to health in this country. It probably hasn't resulted in the air smelling or looking any better (and feedback control of fuel mixture has) but it's been a big deal. My gripe is that counties around major city's have testing while the rest of the state doesn't. What, the wind doesn't blow through the whole state? Depends on the state. LA is an interesting example... LA sort of has its own weather system in the basin and smog in the basin doesn't blow away, it just sits there and people stew in it. New York isn't like that... smog in New York turns into smog in New Jersey. --scott -- Was that battery plant in Leads, Alabamastan? That place was closed years ago and I think is one of those Superfund sites. I searched a little for it but didn't find the information online. I do remember that horribly polluted neighborhood, "Love Canal" in Niagara Falls, New York. It was all over the news yyears ago. o_O [8~{} Uncle Lead Monster Look up Kabwe Zambia and the Broken Hill Mining Company. I almost ended up posted there in the early seventies - lead and zinc mining has decimated the population. |
#68
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#69
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 10:18:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:58:26 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:08:29 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= wrote: Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and manufacturing has left? There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was taken out of gas. That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the scariest thing you can imagine. When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look back. You can say some bad things about the EPA and some of them are true, but the reduction in lead exposure has been one of the biggest benefits to health in this country. It probably hasn't resulted in the air smelling or looking any better (and feedback control of fuel mixture has) but it's been a big deal. My gripe is that counties around major city's have testing while the rest of the state doesn't. What, the wind doesn't blow through the whole state? Depends on the state. LA is an interesting example... LA sort of has its own weather system in the basin and smog in the basin doesn't blow away, it just sits there and people stew in it. New York isn't like that... smog in New York turns into smog in New Jersey. --scott -- Was that battery plant in Leads, Alabamastan? That place was closed years ago and I think is one of those Superfund sites. I searched a little for it but didn't find the information online. I do remember that horribly polluted neighborhood, "Love Canal" in Niagara Falls, New York. It was all over the news yyears ago. o_O [8~{} Uncle Lead Monster Look up Kabwe Zambia and the Broken Hill Mining Company. I almost ended up posted there in the early seventies - lead and zinc mining has decimated the population. Now the Chinese have moved into Africa to rape the land and strip the country of it's resources. o_O [8~{} Uncle Mine Monster |
#70
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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#71
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:57:04 -0500, "." wrote: On 9/19/2015 12:46 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." wrote: Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications. In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap off the road. If only there were any documentation to support that claim. Well, as a mechanic back then, I can assure you I failed a LOT of dangerous cars, repaired many of them, and scrapped almost as many. I still fail cars for being rolling junk. Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key. My comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. Which here in Ontario only require safety checks for transfer, or if older than a certain age, depending on the insurance company, to get or maintain insurance coverage. As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc) It still is. Tell me how the average hack can adjust the timing on his 2002 Ford Taurus 3.0 32 valve V6??? Or even adjust the mixture? Power tuners and pass through devices that alter the signals from sensors. See them all the time, and frequently fail the vehicle they are on. so that what left the manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same. And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were an insignificant percentage of the motoring public. You would be surprised how many Olds 350 rockets back in the mid seventies had the timing significantly altered to eliminate overheating when pulling a trailer, or how many "super six" mopars had the carburetion and timing adjusted off-spec to get rid of "driveability problems" - and how many "lean burn" mopars were "converted" to non-lean-burn without changing the camshaft (which was required if you were going to be anywhere CLOSE to passing emissions) and how many AIR systems were removed from GM engines - and how many EGR systems were disconnected ---- just for starters. (under the mistaken idea that they could get better mileage by simply removing them) The numbers WERE significant. Yep, Still happens today. EGR bypass kits, tuner bricks, fake O2 sensor signal generators, and more. With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but a money-grab - Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a "questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the road. Again, my comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. And "selective enforcement" can be, and is, applied to private passenger vehicles as well - at least here in Ontario. It is in NY as well. -- Steve W. |
#72
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Bob F wrote:
Steve W. wrote: . wrote: On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars for cash" BS. Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance will be terrible. I doubt they will be able to sue. The "normal" EPA test numbers for these vehicles have alwas been "low" compared to the ones outside the lab. I hear folks all the time bragging how their VW gets 45 mpg but the sticker says it should be getting 38 mpg. VW can re-flash the ECM and simply say the the TEST (remember the tests would have been with the emissions systems working)mpg is the correct number and their 45 mpg was a fluke. -- Steve W. |
#73
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most of the states do not use a dyno any longer. I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno. No OBD hookup whatsoever. |
#74
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:44:13 -0700, sms wrote:
Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port. I know this intimately not to be true, in the truest sense of what you say. While many stations will certainly do a courtesy OBD scan, since you can't pass CA emissions with a given number of pending or set codes or unset monitors (the numbers of each are depending on the year of the vehicle), it is absolutely NOT a requirement to run the OBD scan. Look it up. I did. |
#75
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski
wrote: On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? I found that interesting for two things. I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. Many corporations have no morals these days, and like most criminals, they think they won't get caught. Do you remember Bank of America, how when it got several checks whose total exceeded the money in someone's checking account, regardelss of the order they came in, they would process the biggest ones first, so as to empty the checking account so that all the little checks bounced, giving them as much insufficient funds fees as possible. That was outright stealing by the Bank of America. They only changed because the government caught them and made them. I had occasion to be in a Wells Fargo branch, and I was telling the bank officer why I despised Bank of America and he was telling me I should change to Wells Fargo, and 6 months later, 2 or 3 years afer the incident with Bank of Am. and I reed in the paper that Wells Fargo is doing the same thing, and they didn't even stop after Bank of Am got caught. They are also thieves and if they don't steal more often, it's because they think they'll get caught, not because those in charge have any morals. |
#76
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Only with half of what you say. They will do t he same on the emissions test, and continue to pass unless something is broken. But yes, that means they'll get lower mileage, not just during the test. Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? VW should pay them for the extra gas they will have to buy, and pay them for the time it takes to go to the gas station and get it. |
#77
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf Most use tailpipe testing. Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure on a dynomometer. Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's being tested for emissions. Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car knows it is being tested. Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I don't think included my 1995 car. (For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or my car. |
#78
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:45:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil change? Dirty air filter? Sorry, I should have mentioned that the position I set out is that under English law and other jurisdictions will no doubt differ. |
#79
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
.. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 3:15 PM, Tekkie® wrote: Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that train has left the station. Wow, you are remarkably uninformed, if not downright stupid. Educate yourself, if possible, by reading about Clair Patterson, a scientist who was attempting to establish the true age of the Earth and serendipitously, by the failure of his early attempts to create a clean room, discovered the grave neurotoxin danger poisoning us all. Thank you for that little bit of education. |
#80
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 10:54 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:44:13 -0700, sms wrote: Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port. I know this intimately not to be true, in the truest sense of what you say. While many stations will certainly do a courtesy OBD scan, since you can't pass CA emissions with a given number of pending or set codes or unset monitors (the numbers of each are depending on the year of the vehicle), it is absolutely NOT a requirement to run the OBD scan. Look it up. I did. You said it yourself. You can't pass emissions with pending codes. They have to run a scan to check this. That's why before they even stick the exhaust gas analyzer into the tail pipe they read the codes. No point proceeding with the test if there are unset codes, though if you're paying for the test they will complete it to check for other failure modes as well. At least that's the procedure for the four vehicles I have had smogged every two years for the past 20 or so years. Also the procedure at the repair shop my relative operated until he sold it last month, and he probably did 3000 or so smog checks per year. I guess you could claim that it is not a requirement to run a scan, it's just a requirement that you can't pass with pending codes and the only way to check for pending codes is to do a scan. If there is another way to check for pending codes other than doing a scan you would be correct, but I don't think that there is. |
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