On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why
emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving
drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty
party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly
addressed at the point of manufacture.

On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why
emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving
drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty
party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly
addressed at the point of manufacture.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 04:29:39 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

AFAIK, there is only one set of code under discussion here, that's
the code that is in the actual VW cars that were cheating.

Um, someone was comparing the punishment meted out to other auto
manufacturers who were punished under a different legal code than
the legal code which will be used to punish VW.

That's all I was saying to keep in mind.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.

I don't know how VW works, but, in one newspaper, they "speculated" that
this kind of cheat had to be approved at the top level.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:23:43 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.

But don't you think the code, which clearly had legal implications
known to all involved, would have to be signed off at the highest
level?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 07:03:25 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:

They shouldn't be parking in the special parking spaces for
low emission vehicles.

That's an interesting observation!

Winston_Smith wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built. The only real change would be
that the mpg numbers will fall to the original EPA numbers. The only
other thing will be an increase in the amount of times the systems burn
the residuals in the trap.

--
Steve W.

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 3:15:57 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:
Winston_Smith wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built. The only real change would be
that the mpg numbers will fall to the original EPA numbers. The only
other thing will be an increase in the amount of times the systems burn
the residuals in the trap.

--
Steve W.

IDK what you're basing that on, as we don't know very much
at this point. It's not clear that MPG is the only thing
that will be affected. For example, IDK how the overall
system is designed and it would seem possible that maybe
other parts of the system can't endure the constant operation?
That would be worse case. Even if it's MPG only, they are
still going to be in big trouble if the cars don't meet
the advertised MPG. That would likely require some refund
payments to the owners in addition to fines, possible criminal
proceedings, etc.

Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built.

For how long? There's a big difference between
fifteen minutes at the inspection shop and
two hours of roadway driving.

that will be affected. For example, IDK how the overall
system is designed and it would seem possible that maybe
other parts of the system can't endure the constant operation?
That would be worse case. Even if it's MPG only, they are
still going to be in big trouble if the cars don't meet
the advertised MPG. That would likely require some refund
payments to the owners in addition to fines, possible criminal
proceedings, etc.

And.. if the MPG hit is bad, VW could be
running into CAFE issues...

http://www.nhtsa.gov/fuel-economy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpor...e_Fuel_Economy


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars,
judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I
doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars
for cash" BS.

--
Steve W.

EPA should require vw to buy back every vehicle for its original purchase price and monitor them being crushed....

now its true vw might go bankrupt, but given its harsh penalty no car company will ever try to pull it again..

On 9/23/2015 10:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Bob F wrote:


VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

Doubt they will walk away from a huge market where they have been well
established.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:59:17 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

EPA should require vw to buy back every vehicle for its original purchase price and monitor them being crushed....

Support government.

now its true vw might go bankrupt, but given its harsh penalty no car company will ever try to pull it again..

LOL. penalties make a company conform, swear to never let is happen
again. DO YOU HAVE AN EXAMPLE?

On 9/23/2015 9:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:

Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.

But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some
serious prison time.

I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious
prosecutions than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen.
This is not just a US crime.

Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.

The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.

VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

It has been reported that less than one in twenty-two
problem cars were actually sold in the U.S.

"Winston_Smith" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that in
Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of
pickpockets."

People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they became
excellent targets for pickpockets.

It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion because
people are often way out of their minds when they kill lovers, spouses,
children, etc.

--
Bobby G.

Virtually all marketing material is a lie.

Did you really think that shopvac you bought at McLowesDepotBigBoxSuperMart has a 6HP motor on it?

Did you really think that $49 TV antenna can pull in stations from 200 miles away?

Did you really think your new car would actually get the mpg advertised on the sticker?

You really think your extended warranty will cover everything?

Did you really think Dick Network would deliver all those channels for $19.95 / mo?

So what if VW stretches the truth a bit, they ***all*** do.

Do you know how to tell if a car salesperson is lying? Their lips are moving.

On 9/23/2015 12:51 PM, danny burstein wrote:
Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built.

For how long? There's a big difference between
fifteen minutes at the inspection shop and
two hours of roadway driving.

that will be affected. For example, IDK how the overall
system is designed and it would seem possible that maybe
other parts of the system can't endure the constant operation?
That would be worse case. Even if it's MPG only, they are
still going to be in big trouble if the cars don't meet
the advertised MPG. That would likely require some refund
payments to the owners in addition to fines, possible criminal
proceedings, etc.

And.. if the MPG hit is bad, VW could be
running into CAFE issues...

Unlikely given that they sell so few larger vehicles that have to be offset.

"Dean Hoffman" wrote in
news

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.



it was to cool the shafts and blades so the oil wouldn`t coke up. not spin
down. KB

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 3:59:23 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars,
judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I
doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars
for cash" BS.

--
Steve W.

EPA should require vw to buy back every vehicle for its original purchase price and monitor them being crushed....

now its true vw might go bankrupt, but given its harsh penalty no car company will ever try to pull it again..

And all the ordinary people, the hundreds of thousands of workers
that lose their jobs, health benefits, retirement, etc, being a lib,
you're OK with that? Seems the punishment is worse than the crime,
especially since only a negligible percentage of all the people
involved with VW worldwide had anything to do with this and they
get hit just like the small number that did the deed.

Robert Green wrote:
"Winston_Smith" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that
in Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of
pickpockets."

People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they
became excellent targets for pickpockets.

It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion
because people are often way out of their minds when they kill
lovers, spouses, children, etc.

Corporate crime is not in that category. Serious prison terms for corporate
officers and anyone else involved would probably be a strong deterant. Corporate
shortcuts that result in multiple deaths should alway result in strong
prosecutions. Just like presecution of corporation officers for hiring illegal
immigrants is the only real solution to the problem the Repubs whine so much
about. Way cheaper than building the wall they want.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:25:51 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.
BMW and MB use DEF - I believe it wsas only Volkswagen's "clean diesel
technology" that did not - and now we know how THAT worked.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 05:59:50 -0500, "Dean Hoffman"
wrote:


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.
Toyota's solution was a water cooled turbo.

On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!!

Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/23/2015 8:21 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!!

Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

This reads more like a comedy routine than a serious protest.

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Screw the lead, asbestos and dioxin, full speed ahead.

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

That much is true, Felipe Massa always hopes to beat every driver.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:47:55 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.

I think this makes sense.

The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.

In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".

Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
(i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
NOx emissions.

Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
be damned.

There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.

The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).

The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
guest stole money out of your wallet.

Yes. The real mystery here is who implemented this and who all knew
about it. I think they have to run the cars on test tracks for 50 or
60K miles to verify they system holds up but even if not, surely
during development of any engine system they must run them fully
instrumented for quite a while to see what the "real world" results
look like as well as how well the "lab strategy" works in the field.
Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 04:29:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 9:05:57 PM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:


We are talking about two different codes. The code I'm talking about
is the "real code" that doesn't have any special switches in it. The
code you are talking about is code someone slipped into the "real
code" to turn off the emissions controls.



AFAIK, there is only one set of code under discussion here, that's
the code that is in the actual VW cars that were cheating.



was to first determine if
the car was currently being emissions tested, and if so, then to run
the car with the full emissions control protocol to meet the test.
Otherwise it ran the car with emissions that according to the news
last night was 10 - 40x above the limits.



As the EPA found, and I doubt it was
hard, the on the road emissions didn't match what was produced during
dynamometer testing. How would anyone realistically look at the code
and be able to figure out that it "worked" as far as controlling
emissions?

They didn't look at the code, EPA went after VW to explain the huge
differences between dyno testing emissions and emission on the road.
VW couldn't explain it and finally admitted what they had done.


That is my point exactly. They looked at what came out the tailpipe.
Looking at "the code" isn't going to tell them anything, it's not like
it's just a 1980 15 line BASIC language do loop to count how many
times the wheels go around in a minute where you could look and see
they were inserting an extra 10% every 120 seconds with two extra
lines of code.

If competent investigators choose to actually do the
investigation, to find out what was happening, to look at
the code, they could show that the code was written to detect
when the car was being tested and to then do a different
emissions control algorithm. It's right there, in the code.
It would be much easier to decipher if it was documented and
labeled "cheat code", but it can still be done.



It's undoubtedly got thousands and thousands of lines
of code, much of it interrelated, much of it doing periodic "turn this
off and see if sensor X reacts" to verify sensor X is still working.
If sensor X is not working turn the CEL on and depending on the fault
code it might make it flash. No one is going to be able to look thru
that and find some hidden loop aimed at fooling the system unless the
author of the illicit code wanted to be caught and put in "ILLEGAL
CODE - NEXT 12 lines!!!"

Of course it can be found and determined. It's not trivial, but it
certainly can be done without the code being documented.



And even if this presumed code looker found
something suspicious, so what? If the car passes both the emissions
test and ALL on road verifications what do you think EPA should do?
Fine them for writing code that's looks funny to EPA but still meets
emissions standards?

If the car actually met the EPA standards, then I agree that
having the cheat code there might not violate the law. But the
fact is that the cars don't meet the limits by 10 to 40x. If you're
point is that it's not worth it for the EPA to be routinely demanding
source code, analyzing it all, deciphering it, etc, for all cars,
I agree with that.

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:51:34 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built.

For how long? There's a big difference between
fifteen minutes at the inspection shop and
two hours of roadway driving.

that will be affected. For example, IDK how the overall
system is designed and it would seem possible that maybe
other parts of the system can't endure the constant operation?
That would be worse case. Even if it's MPG only, they are
still going to be in big trouble if the cars don't meet
the advertised MPG. That would likely require some refund
payments to the owners in addition to fines, possible criminal
proceedings, etc.

And.. if the MPG hit is bad, VW could be
running into CAFE issues...

http://www.nhtsa.gov/fuel-economy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpor...e_Fuel_Economy

Yes, if fixing teh code causes the mpg to go down it's possible that
VW would then be on the hook for false MPG claims. Kia or one of
those smaller companies got hit with fines for that not that long ago.

Ewald Böhm wrote in :

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe requirements!
https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

trader_4 wrote in
:

And all the ordinary people, the hundreds of thousands of workers
that lose their jobs, health benefits, retirement, etc, being a lib,
you're OK with that? Seems the punishment is worse than the crime,
especially since only a negligible percentage of all the people
involved with VW worldwide had anything to do with this and they
get hit just like the small number that did the deed.

I feel for the innocent people, but, in reality, is *anyone* at VW
actually innocent when they *all* benefited from the sales of cars
which, we now know, were sold with audaciously fraudulent claims?

Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:07:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.

I have to agree with you.

Notice what Winterkorn said, which was that he wasn't aware, "to his
knowledge", that he cheated. Hmmmm...

And Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman either.

Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

Yes, if fixing teh code causes the mpg to go down it's possible that
VW would then be on the hook for false MPG claims. Kia or one of
those smaller companies got hit with fines for that not that long ago.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 2:59:23 PM UTC-5, bob haller wrote:
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars,
judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I
doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars
for cash" BS.

--
Steve W.

EPA should require vw to buy back every vehicle for its original purchase price and monitor them being crushed....

now its true vw might go bankrupt, but given its harsh penalty no car company will ever try to pull it again..

Wow, you'd destroy the lives of millions of people who had nothing to do with any fraud by VW execs. I suppose if you were king of America, you'd order the outright confiscation and destruction of all VW vehicles? Why not punish the actual perpetrators instead of everyone? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Perp Monster

Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on
diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The
company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice
system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to
"WHO" did it).
The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

Maybe this will be the time for a change??

trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 3:59:23 PM UTC-4, bob haller
wrote:
On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have
to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by
VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in,
they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall
complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the
ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed
the systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so
it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall
the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have
them crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it
before under the "cars for cash" BS.

--
Steve W.

EPA should require vw to buy back every vehicle for its original
purchase price and monitor them being crushed....

now its true vw might go bankrupt, but given its harsh penalty no
car company will ever try to pull it again..

And all the ordinary people, the hundreds of thousands of workers
that lose their jobs, health benefits, retirement, etc, being a lib,
you're OK with that? Seems the punishment is worse than the crime,
especially since only a negligible percentage of all the people
involved with VW worldwide had anything to do with this and they
get hit just like the small number that did the deed.

Criminal prosection, and long prison time would be a stronger message. It is
time for corporate criminals to get the same attention long given to 2 bit drug
dealers.
The maximum fine of $37,500/car would certainly help also.

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 10:55:53 PM UTC-4, Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen wrote:
Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?

You have it backwards and contradict yourself in your own statement.
If it's true that more fuel to the engine lowers emissions, then
that would be what they would have to do all the time, not just
when it's being tested and that would give lower MPG.

Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen wrote:
Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?


Backwards.

Less fuel = hotter burn in the combustion chamber = higher NOx numbers
It shows up as vehicles that get better EPA mileage numbers than the
sticker says because they are burning less fuel.

To correct the issue they need to increase the fuel to the engine to
cool the combustion temperatures.

The end result will be that the EPA MPG numbers will be closer to
reality because the engine is now using the fuel to keep the NOx numbers
down. The only "bad" side effect will be that the particulate trap and
the NOx catalyst will need to burn more often to regenerate.

OR VW could come up with a DEF retrofit to drop the NOx numbers.

--
Steve W.