Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank . So
what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ? Current
draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's
also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element comes on
at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?
--
Snag

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:59:34 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank . So
what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ? Current
draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's
also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element comes on
at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?
--
Snag

All the dryers and similar that I've dealt with, the installation
instructions spec the ampacity requirement for the circuit, which
would include the breaker and wiring. Given that the plate says 24,
I would think 30 would be the correct size, assuming the wiring supports
it.

On 09/08/2015 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:59:34 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank . So
what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ? Current
draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's
also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element comes on
at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?
--
Snag

All the dryers and similar that I've dealt with, the installation
instructions spec the ampacity requirement for the circuit, which
would include the breaker and wiring. Given that the plate says 24,
I would think 30 would be the correct size, assuming the wiring supports
it.




Yep.

30 amps is pretty much the standard

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank .
So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ?
Current draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but
there's also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element
comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?
--

The breaker for mine is 30 amps. I would assume that most all dryers for
normal house use would be the same.

Just make sure you use the size of wire for the breaker current.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:00:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank . So
what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ? Current
draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's
also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element comes on
at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?
--
Snag


You want a 10 gauge 4 wire circuit on a 30 gauge circuit. Typicall;y
this is 10/3 wg Romex. Use a 14-30r receptacle.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 11:19:51 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank .
So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ?
Current draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but
there's also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element
comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?
--

The breaker for mine is 30 amps. I would assume that most all dryers for
normal house use would be the same.

Just make sure you use the size of wire for the breaker current.

Driers are generally 30 Amp, Ranges are generally 40 Amp

philo wrote:
On 09/08/2015 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:59:34 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs
wrote:
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in
the past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a
big tank . So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power
this thing ? Current draw according to the model plate says it
dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's also the start current surge - I'm
not sure if the heating element comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40
? --
Snag

All the dryers and similar that I've dealt with, the installation
instructions spec the ampacity requirement for the circuit, which
would include the breaker and wiring. Given that the plate says 24,
I would think 30 would be the correct size, assuming the wiring
supports it.




Yep.

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it . The
other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6
feet .

--
Snag

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
philo wrote:
Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it .
The other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of
maybe 5-6 feet .

The code in most places for a new dryer or stove requires 4 wires. Two hot
wires, the neutral and a ground.
Number 10 wire is correct for most instalations of a 30 amp breaker.

When you get the dryer , you will need a 4 wire plug to match the socket you
are going to install.

Look at the dryer where the wires attach and see if there is a strap that
goes from the neutral to the frame of the dryer. If it is there , be sure
to remove it for the 4 wire cord instalation.

Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

On 9/8/2015 12:12 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it . The
other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6
feet .


New installation requires 10/3 with ground. You may still be able to buy
the old cordsets, but I'm not sure.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 11:12:28 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

philo wrote:
On 09/08/2015 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:59:34 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs
wrote:
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in
the past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a
big tank . So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power
this thing ? Current draw according to the model plate says it
dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's also the start current surge - I'm
not sure if the heating element comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40
? --
Snag

All the dryers and similar that I've dealt with, the installation
instructions spec the ampacity requirement for the circuit, which
would include the breaker and wiring. Given that the plate says 24,
I would think 30 would be the correct size, assuming the wiring
supports it.




Yep.

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it . The
other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6
feet .
For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 12:23:21 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
philo wrote:
Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it .
The other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of
maybe 5-6 feet .

The code in most places for a new dryer or stove requires 4 wires. Two hot
wires, the neutral and a ground.
Number 10 wire is correct for most instalations of a 30 amp breaker.

When you get the dryer , you will need a 4 wire plug to match the socket you
are going to install.

Look at the dryer where the wires attach and see if there is a strap that
goes from the neutral to the frame of the dryer. If it is there , be sure
to remove it for the 4 wire cord instalation.

Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.


MOST driers come with the cord and plug attached these days - and it
will be a 4 terminal plug.

Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.

All new installs should be with 4 wire plug.

Mark

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:00:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in the
past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a big tank . So
what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power this thing ? Current
draw according to the model plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's
also the start current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element comes on
at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?

Weren't their instructions with the dryer, or did you get one of those
kits from Eico?
--
Snag



--

Stumpy Strumpet
the bimbus
for dogcatcher

wrote in message
...

MOST driers come with the cord and plug attached these days - and it
will be a 4 terminal plug.

They may do it in some places. The ones I bought in the past did not .

I did a quick check of Lowes for the dryers I looked at the cord is extra.
Usually a wa to get around $ 20 to $ 30 more out of the sell.

About 25 years ago I needed a new dryer and not the cord so I asked them to
keep the cord and bring it to the house for free.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 15:10:24 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/8/2015 12:12 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it . The
other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6
feet .


New installation requires 10/3 with ground. You may still be able to buy
the old cordsets, but I'm not sure.

Yes you can but they are not legal on a new installation, only for
replacement.
As Phil Simmonds said on the NEC proposal that eliminated the
exception of using the neutral for a gr5ound, "the war is over"
(it was a WWII era exception to save copper)

BTW it was NEVER legal to run a dryer on 10/2. The third wire needs to
be insulated since it is technically the neutral. That is why, in most
cases a bare ground will be available in the cable, even if you have
the 3 prong plug. Most 10/3 romex still had a ground.
Typically the bare wire was terminated in the box and the white went
to the "L" shaped prong. Both landed on the neutral/ground bus in the
panel. This arrangement was NOT allowed on a sub panel. If this is a
sub, you needed to run 4 wires, even if Glen Miller was playing on the
radio.
That is a frequent violation that catches people when they do a power
upgrade and use the old panel as s sub off the new panel.

On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
....

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the last
60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

--

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 11:12:20 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:
philo wrote:
On 09/08/2015 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:59:34 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs
wrote:
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in
the past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a
big tank . So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power
this thing ? Current draw according to the model plate says it
dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's also the start current surge - I'm
not sure if the heating element comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40
? --
Snag

All the dryers and similar that I've dealt with, the installation
instructions spec the ampacity requirement for the circuit, which
would include the breaker and wiring. Given that the plate says 24,
I would think 30 would be the correct size, assuming the wiring
supports it.




Yep.

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it . The
other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6
feet .

--
Snag

Is there a label on the back of the dryer near the power cord entrance or anywhere on the back? It's going to list the required breaker size. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Dryer Monster

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:54:08 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the last
60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

--

+1

On 9/8/2015 4:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the last 60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

Yah, putting in a proper 4-wire circuit is soooooooooooooo much more expensive.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 13:21:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote in




Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.

All new installs should be with 4 wire plug.

Mark


Looks more like "complexity" just for the sake of complexity. The
3-wire installations work fine for 50 years. What suddenly made it
dangerous?
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:45:12 -0400, wrote in


For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

Just curious. Why "not anymore"? Has the nature of electricity
changed, or just the code? If just the code, what justifies the
increased complications?
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 11:12:20 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs
wrote:
philo wrote:
On 09/08/2015 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:59:34 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs
wrote:
Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas
in the past . No natgas here , and propane would require
installing a big tank . So what size brbreaker do I need in the
panel to power this thing ? Current draw according to the model
plate says it dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's also the start
current surge - I'm not sure if the heating element comes on at
power up . So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to
go with a 40 ? --
Snag

All the dryers and similar that I've dealt with, the installation
instructions spec the ampacity requirement for the circuit, which
would include the breaker and wiring. Given that the plate says
24, I would think 30 would be the correct size, assuming the wiring
supports it.




Yep.

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The
wiring will be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is
about 25 feet or a bit more - unless she wants it somewhere other
than where I plan to put it . The other likely location is right
next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6 feet .

--
Snag

Is there a label on the back of the dryer near the power cord
entrance or anywhere on the back? It's going to list the required
breaker size. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Dryer Monster

Nope , no label . It's now hooked up to a 30 amp breaker and runs just fine
..

--
Snag

micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:00:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in
the past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a
big tank . So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power
this thing ? Current draw according to the model plate says it
dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's also the start current surge - I'm
not sure if the heating element comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?

Weren't their instructions with the dryer, or did you get one of those
kits from Eico?

Instructions don't come with a used appliance .
--
Snag

On 9/8/2015 7:57 PM, CRNG wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 13:21:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote in




Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.

All new installs should be with 4 wire plug.

Mark


Looks more like "complexity" just for the sake of complexity. The
3-wire installations work fine for 50 years. What suddenly made it
dangerous?


Hint: 120 volt motor in dryer and loss of neutral at panel.

If you can't figure it out now, tear up your "man card" and NEVER do any electrical work again.

"CRNG" wrote in message
...

Looks more like "complexity" just for the sake of complexity. The
3-wire installations work fine for 50 years. What suddenly made it
dangerous?
--

If for some reason you loose the ground that is also used as the neutral
connection from the dryer to the breaker panel your dryer frame will become
120 volts above ground. Touch it while grounded and you will find out.



..

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 7:11:58 PM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:

Instructions don't come with a used appliance .
--
Snag

But manuals are usually a search away...

bob_villa wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 7:11:58 PM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:

Instructions don't come with a used appliance .
--
Snag

But manuals are usually a search away...

I did a web search on the model number , came up with nothing of use . Parts
links and repair links , no user manuals or install requirements found .

--
Snag

On 09/08/2015 6:30 PM, John wrote:
On 9/8/2015 4:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the
neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way
to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the
last 60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

Yah, putting in a proper 4-wire circuit is soooooooooooooo much more
expensive.

Immaterial; it the point is it gains virtually nothing in either safety
or operation. Not that it isn't _marginally_ better, but there's a
_long_ history that indicates it's a solution to an essentially
non-existent problem.

--

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:57:14 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:45:12 -0400, wrote in


For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

Just curious. Why "not anymore"? Has the nature of electricity
changed, or just the code? If just the code, what justifies the
increased complications?

They were just trying to make the code more consistent. The only
exceptions to the rule were dryers and ranges and since you were going
to be using 10/3 Romex anyway, why not use the ground wire that was in
there?
As I said before there were other restrictions on this.

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:29:33 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:57:14 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:45:12 -0400, wrote in


For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

Just curious. Why "not anymore"? Has the nature of electricity
changed, or just the code? If just the code, what justifies the
increased complications?

They were just trying to make the code more consistent. The only
exceptions to the rule were dryers and ranges and since you were going
to be using 10/3 Romex anyway, why not use the ground wire that was in
there?
As I said before there were other restrictions on this.
I've seen a lot of 10/2 with ground used for driers in the past, and
8/2 for ranges YEARS ago.

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:58:13 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:29:33 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:57:14 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:45:12 -0400, wrote in


For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

Just curious. Why "not anymore"? Has the nature of electricity
changed, or just the code? If just the code, what justifies the
increased complications?

They were just trying to make the code more consistent. The only
exceptions to the rule were dryers and ranges and since you were going
to be using 10/3 Romex anyway, why not use the ground wire that was in
there?
As I said before there were other restrictions on this.
I've seen a lot of 10/2 with ground used for driers in the past, and
8/2 for ranges YEARS ago.

I have seen stuff wired with lamp cord but that didn't make it legal.

The fact remains that the exception allowed the neutral to also be
used for the ground and the neutral has always been required to be a
white insulated conductor.
The only time any of that would be legal these days is if it was truly
a 240 only piece of equipment and you would use a 6-30r or 6-50r
receptacle.

Of course if nobody is ever going to inspect it, this is just between
you and your insurance company.

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:39:18 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:58:13 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:29:33 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:57:14 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:45:12 -0400, wrote in


For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

Just curious. Why "not anymore"? Has the nature of electricity
changed, or just the code? If just the code, what justifies the
increased complications?

They were just trying to make the code more consistent. The only
exceptions to the rule were dryers and ranges and since you were going
to be using 10/3 Romex anyway, why not use the ground wire that was in
there?
As I said before there were other restrictions on this.
I've seen a lot of 10/2 with ground used for driers in the past, and
8/2 for ranges YEARS ago.

I have seen stuff wired with lamp cord but that didn't make it legal.

The fact remains that the exception allowed the neutral to also be
used for the ground and the neutral has always been required to be a
white insulated conductor.
The only time any of that would be legal these days is if it was truly
a 240 only piece of equipment and you would use a 6-30r or 6-50r
receptacle.

Of course if nobody is ever going to inspect it, this is just between
you and your insurance company.
Old kitchen ranges had no electronic controls and no 115 volt lights
- basically nothing that ran on 120 volts so no neutral was required.
I'm talking 60-80 years back. when even a safety ground was almost
unheard of. The first electric drier I ever saw was a 220 volt unit -
including the motor. Not sure, it may have actually been a european
unit - it was part of a set with a front load washer back in the mid
'50s, and it was at a friend's farm (They were neighbours back in
1954)

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 8 Sep 2015 19:12:03 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:00:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Just bought our first electric dryer , wewe have always used gas in
the past . No natgas here , and propane would require installing a
big tank . So what size brbreaker do I need in the panel to power
this thing ? Current draw according to the model plate says it
dawaws 22-24 amps , but there's also the start current surge - I'm
not sure if the heating element comes on at power up .
So will a 30A breaker handle this , or do I need to go with a 40 ?

Weren't their instructions with the dryer, or did you get one of those
kits from Eico?

Instructions don't come with a used appliance .

Good point. ;-)

--

Stumpy Strumpet
the bimbus
for dogcatcher

dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 6:30 PM, John wrote:
On 9/8/2015 4:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the
neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way
to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the
last 60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

Yah, putting in a proper 4-wire circuit is soooooooooooooo much more
expensive.

Immaterial; it the point is it gains virtually nothing in either safety
or operation. Not that it isn't _marginally_ better, but there's a
_long_ history that indicates it's a solution to an essentially
non-existent problem.

--
Marginally better is still better.

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 23:27:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:39:18 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:58:13 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:29:33 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:57:14 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:45:12 -0400, wrote in


For driers code is 10/3 with a 4 wire plug because many driers run
only the element on 220, with the motor and controls on 120 - which
now requires a neutral. Used to be you could use the ground as a
neutral and get away with it. Not any more.

Just curious. Why "not anymore"? Has the nature of electricity
changed, or just the code? If just the code, what justifies the
increased complications?

They were just trying to make the code more consistent. The only
exceptions to the rule were dryers and ranges and since you were going
to be using 10/3 Romex anyway, why not use the ground wire that was in
there?
As I said before there were other restrictions on this.
I've seen a lot of 10/2 with ground used for driers in the past, and
8/2 for ranges YEARS ago.

I have seen stuff wired with lamp cord but that didn't make it legal.

The fact remains that the exception allowed the neutral to also be
used for the ground and the neutral has always been required to be a
white insulated conductor.
The only time any of that would be legal these days is if it was truly
a 240 only piece of equipment and you would use a 6-30r or 6-50r
receptacle.

Of course if nobody is ever going to inspect it, this is just between
you and your insurance company.
Old kitchen ranges had no electronic controls and no 115 volt lights
- basically nothing that ran on 120 volts so no neutral was required.
I'm talking 60-80 years back. when even a safety ground was almost
unheard of. The first electric drier I ever saw was a 220 volt unit -
including the motor. Not sure, it may have actually been a european
unit - it was part of a set with a front load washer back in the mid
'50s, and it was at a friend's farm (They were neighbours back in
1954)

Virtually all dryers have 120v timers and motors. I am not sure why
since they are purpose built units but I assume it is just
easier/cheaper for the timer to switch one ungrounded leg.
A european unit will not have that issue since the 220v is line to
neutral so they still only have to switch one leg.
They would not be legal in the US for that reason.

I agree there were a lot of ranges that were 240v only in the olden
days but by the 50s, convenience outlets, lights and clocks were
common. They were/are 120v.
These days, it is only cook tops that are 240 only.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 22:07:20 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 6:30 PM, John wrote:
On 9/8/2015 4:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the
neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way
to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the
last 60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

Yah, putting in a proper 4-wire circuit is soooooooooooooo much more
expensive.

Immaterial; it the point is it gains virtually nothing in either safety
or operation. Not that it isn't _marginally_ better, but there's a
_long_ history that indicates it's a solution to an essentially
non-existent problem.

--
Marginally better is still better.

More than marginally. If you really feel that way, why run 23 wire to
your receptacle outlets anywhere. Just tag the neutral.

The error in your ways will quickly become apparent when you are
sitting on the garage floor with a metal cased tool in your hand.
Any voltage drop in the neutral will be imposed on the tool's case.

On 09/08/2015 09:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 6:30 PM, John wrote:
On 9/8/2015 4:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the
neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way
to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the
last 60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

Yah, putting in a proper 4-wire circuit is soooooooooooooo much more
expensive.

Immaterial; it the point is it gains virtually nothing in either safety or operation. Not that it isn't _marginally_ better, but there's a
_long_ history that indicates it's a solution to an essentially non-existent problem.

--

And if some little kid is electrocuted by your faulty wiring,
are you really so naive to think the parents won't sue your
****ing pants off? And you think they won't win?

One thing for sure, the plaintiff's attorney is going to
love your attitude and negligence. Easy money!

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 4:41:48 AM UTC-4, jimbob wrote:
On 09/08/2015 09:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 6:30 PM, John wrote:
On 9/8/2015 4:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/08/2015 3:21 PM, wrote:


Years ago the dryers and stoves only used 3 wire plugs and the
neutral and
frame were hooked together, but that is not the correct (code) way
to do it
now.

It can also create a very dangerous shock hazard.
...

Which is why there's been a news story every night over it for the
last 60+ years...oh, yeah, "not!"

Yah, putting in a proper 4-wire circuit is soooooooooooooo much more
expensive.

Immaterial; it the point is it gains virtually nothing in either safety or operation. Not that it isn't _marginally_ better, but there's a
_long_ history that indicates it's a solution to an essentially non-existent problem.

--

And if some little kid is electrocuted by your faulty wiring,
are you really so naive to think the parents won't sue your
****ing pants off? And you think they won't win?

One thing for sure, the plaintiff's attorney is going to
love your attitude and negligence. Easy money!

DPB never said not to install it to code today. He would follow
code and I would too. All he took exception too, and I do too,
is that the previous code compliant 3 wire installation that was in
effect for half a century, until about 2000, created a "very dangerous
shock hazard". That is not true. And if it's such a "very dangerous
shock hazard" and everybody is going to get sued, why do most dryers
ship configured for a 3 wire cord and you have to actually make a
small wiring change at the dryer to accommodate 4 wire? Why do
those dryer manufacturers all say that the dryer can be used with
either 3 wire or 4 wire cord?
why

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 8:15:08 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"CRNG" wrote in message
...

Looks more like "complexity" just for the sake of complexity. The
3-wire installations work fine for 50 years. What suddenly made it
dangerous?
--

If for some reason you loose the ground that is also used as the neutral
connection from the dryer to the breaker panel your dryer frame will become
120 volts above ground. Touch it while grounded and you will find out.



Yes, that remote possibility has always existed, for half
a century. The point is the comment was made that it is "very dangerous".
If it's very dangerous, why do dryers still ship configured for 3 wire cords?
Why do the manufacturers give instructions for using it with 3 wire installs?
Why is it still perfectly code compliant to install a new dryer with a
3 wire cord? There are lots of small safety improvements that have been
made over the years, that doesn't make what was there previously very dangerous.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:40:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 15:10:24 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/8/2015 12:12 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

30 amps is pretty much the standard

Thanks , I was leaning towards a 30A , but wasn't sure . The wiring will
be new , the plan is to run 10/2 w/gnd , the run is about 25 feet or a bit
more - unless she wants it somewhere other than where I plan to put it . The
other likely location is right next to the power panel , a run of maybe 5-6
feet .


New installation requires 10/3 with ground. You may still be able to buy
the old cordsets, but I'm not sure.

Yes you can but they are not legal on a new installation, only for
replacement.

Some people might take that to mean the installation of a new dryer.
Just to clarify, that's a new *circuit* installation. It's still
code compliant to use a brand new dryer with a 3 wire cord on
an existing 3 wire circuit and there are loads of them out there.