As long as I was putting new wiring into the kitchen and was "on a roll"
so to speak, I figured I might as well get rid of the last 4 runs of the
original 1932 wiring.


The wiring itself was still OK, but the old "pipe" conduit had a lot of
poor ground connections, so I got rid of it.


Sheesh, some of the piping was as heavy as water pipe.


Put it all out in the alley and within a few minutes a metal scavenger
came and got it.



Started in with the Sawzall about 7 am and later my wife asked me what I
was doing. She says she gets scared when she hears me running power
tools and does not see what I'm doing.



Told her she'd be a lot more scared if she /did/ see what I was doing.

On 8/10/2015 11:30 AM, philo wrote:
As long as I was putting new wiring into the kitchen and was "on a roll"
so to speak, I figured I might as well get rid of the last 4 runs of the
original 1932 wiring.

The wiring itself was still OK, but the old "pipe" conduit had a lot of
poor ground connections, so I got rid of it.

Sheesh, some of the piping was as heavy as water pipe.

Put it all out in the alley and within a few minutes a metal scavenger
came and got it.

Started in with the Sawzall about 7 am and later my wife asked me what I
was doing. She says she gets scared when she hears me running power
tools and does not see what I'm doing.

Told her she'd be a lot more scared if she /did/ see what I was doing.

Sounds like your home safety is improved, a LOT.
Very good job, sir.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

They didn't ground anything in 1932.

On 08/10/2015 10:52 AM, Edmund J. Burke wrote:
They didn't ground anything in 1932.



Correct.


The conduit was "semi" grounded but there was no need for it to have a
good ground.

As a matter of fact, there was not much attention to safety.

There was mainly lighting and not very many appliances...probably vacuum
cleaners and toasters at first.
If you flipped the switch and the light went on , all was considered OK.


Someone told me that the vacuum cleaner was one of the first appliances
because with electric lighting people finally noticed how dirty their
houses were.



I am also correcting the wiring to make sure that the light switches
actually disconnect the hot side....not all of them did.

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:52:04 -0700, "Edmund J. Burke"
wrote:

They didn't ground anything in 1932.

Not true at all, assuming they followed the code at the time.
Chapter 25 of the 1897 electrical code does not read that much
different than the 2014 when it comes to grounding conduit.

https://archive.org/stream/00701897/...e/n25/mode/2up

On 08/10/2015 01:15 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:52:04 -0700, "Edmund J. Burke"
wrote:

They didn't ground anything in 1932.

Not true at all, assuming they followed the code at the time.
Chapter 25 of the 1897 electrical code does not read that much
different than the 2014 when it comes to grounding conduit.

https://archive.org/stream/00701897/...e/n25/mode/2up




Glad you found that.

The problem with the 1932 conduit is that the grounds were high
resistance at best due to the now rusty and not terribly tight couplings.


I like to see less than half an ohm and most of the connections were
several ohms or non-existent.


With Romex, the ground wire is straight through and does not rely on the
pipe itself for a ground.

When I run conduit, I also pull a copper ground wire as well.

A lot of times I'll go into a building and see junctions completely
disconnected.

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:24:08 -0500, philo wrote:

On 08/10/2015 01:15 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:52:04 -0700, "Edmund J. Burke"
wrote:

They didn't ground anything in 1932.

Not true at all, assuming they followed the code at the time.
Chapter 25 of the 1897 electrical code does not read that much
different than the 2014 when it comes to grounding conduit.

https://archive.org/stream/00701897/...e/n25/mode/2up




Glad you found that.

The problem with the 1932 conduit is that the grounds were high
resistance at best due to the now rusty and not terribly tight couplings.


I like to see less than half an ohm and most of the connections were
several ohms or non-existent.


With Romex, the ground wire is straight through and does not rely on the
pipe itself for a ground.

When I run conduit, I also pull a copper ground wire as well.

A lot of times I'll go into a building and see junctions completely
disconnected.

I inspected a hospital that was originally a WWII army air force base.
I had th certify the original 1940s conduit was suitable as a ground
path to comply with the hospital rules and I was shocked that with a
ground tester (Ecos) every one of the ones I tested, passed.
(1 ohm under load)
I guess with the right workmanship, these things can work.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:00:35 -0500, philo
wrote:



The conduit was "semi" grounded but there was no need for it to have a
good ground.

As a matter of fact, there was not much attention to safety.

There was mainly lighting and not very many appliances...probably vacuum
cleaners and toasters at first.
If you flipped the switch and the light went on , all was considered OK.


Someone told me that the vacuum cleaner was one of the first appliances
because with electric lighting people finally noticed how dirty their
houses were.

LOL. I believe it.

Before there were electric vacuum cleaners, there were manual ones. One
had to pump them. I don't think they were very popular or worked that
well.


I am also correcting the wiring to make sure that the light switches
actually disconnect the hot side....not all of them did.

When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:45:41 -0400, micky
wrote:


When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.

Back in the K&T days, switching the neutral was common and they even
had a scheme to use 2 wires for a 3 way switch leg.
I am not going to post it because someone would do it.

On 8/11/2015 1:15 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:45:41 -0400, micky
wrote:


When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.

Back in the K&T days, switching the neutral was common and they even
had a scheme to use 2 wires for a 3 way switch leg.
I am not going to post it because someone would do it.

Good call, I can't even imagine how that would be done, but it sounds scary.

--
Froz...

Quando omni flunkus, moritati

On 8/11/15 12:45 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:00:35 -0500, philo


I am also correcting the wiring to make sure that the light switches
actually disconnect the hot side....not all of them did.

When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.

The Carter system, outlawed in 1923.

This documentary shows how future fraternity houses were wired in 1922.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfhq0IFMSHw

On 08/10/2015 11:45 PM, micky wrote:



I am also correcting the wiring to make sure that the light switches
actually disconnect the hot side....not all of them did.

When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.




Actually there were those brush type carpet sweepers (I think they still
make them) My mom had one before she bought a vac.

On 08/11/2015 12:15 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:45:41 -0400, micky
wrote:


When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.

Back in the K&T days, switching the neutral was common and they even
had a scheme to use 2 wires for a 3 way switch leg.
I am not going to post it because someone would do it.




I lived in an apartment that had knob and tube.


There was even a still functioning combination gas/electric fixture in
the attic.

Just now realized that since knob and tube wiring did not run a ground
wire ( as best I recall) and ground would have been via the gas pipe

On 08/10/2015 09:12 PM, wrote:

The problem with the 1932 conduit is that the grounds were high
resistance at best due to the now rusty and not terribly tight couplings.


I like to see less than half an ohm and most of the connections were
several ohms or non-existent.


With Romex, the ground wire is straight through and does not rely on the
pipe itself for a ground.

When I run conduit, I also pull a copper ground wire as well.

A lot of times I'll go into a building and see junctions completely
disconnected.

I inspected a hospital that was originally a WWII army air force base.
I had th certify the original 1940s conduit was suitable as a ground
path to comply with the hospital rules and I was shocked that with a
ground tester (Ecos) every one of the ones I tested, passed.
(1 ohm under load)
I guess with the right workmanship, these things can work.




If the conduit and junctions were clean and tight when assembled...even
if the exterior would be corroded, the electrical connection should
still be good.

In my house though, the nuts were not tightened well and in one case the
threads had been stripped and they just left it. The pipe was not
grounded at all.

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 3:24:13 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 08/10/2015 01:15 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:52:04 -0700, "Edmund J. Burke"
wrote:

They didn't ground anything in 1932.

Not true at all, assuming they followed the code at the time.
Chapter 25 of the 1897 electrical code does not read that much
different than the 2014 when it comes to grounding conduit.

https://archive.org/stream/00701897/...e/n25/mode/2up




Glad you found that.

The problem with the 1932 conduit is that the grounds were high
resistance at best due to the now rusty and not terribly tight couplings.


I like to see less than half an ohm and most of the connections were
several ohms or non-existent.


With Romex, the ground wire is straight through and does not rely on the
pipe itself for a ground.

When I run conduit, I also pull a copper ground wire as well.

A lot of times I'll go into a building and see junctions completely
disconnected.

From your description of what you were cutting out, it appears to be ridged conduit. I can imagine that it's a fun job. If you think about the why of rigid conduit, pretend you were converting a home from gas lighting to electrical lighting back in the day, where would you install the wiring if not knob and tube? If I already had a pipe somewhere that was no longer being used for gas, I think I'd use it as a conduit for wire. Of course wiring practices evolved and changed as standards were published and inspections became the norm. I'd guess there were many house fires cause by the ignorance of that magical source of energy, electricity. That's probably the reason the rules and standards for electrical wiring were codified by the National Fire Protection Association which may have come into being for that reason. I don't know the history of the NFPA without reading about it because it may have been around since the days of gas lighting and the need for standards back then for installing gas lines in buildings. Since I haven really researched it, I'm just guessing. Now that I've become curious, I must vanish for a while and read up on the history of the organization, dammit! á•™(‡€€¸†¼€¶)á•—

[8~{} Uncle Code Monster

On 08/12/2015 02:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:


From your description of what you were cutting out, it appears to be ridged conduit. I can imagine that it's a fun job. If you think about the why of rigid conduit, pretend you were converting a home from gas lighting to electrical lighting back in the day, where would you install the wiring if not knob and tube? If I already had a pipe somewhere that was no longer being used for gas, I think I'd use it as a conduit for wire. Of course wiring practices evolved and changed as standards were published and inspections became the norm. I'd guess there were many house fires cause by the ignorance of that magical source of energy, electricity. That's probably the reason the rules and standards for electrical wiring were codified by the National Fire Protection Association which may have come into being for that reason. I don't know the history of the NFPA without reading about it because it may have been around since the days of gas lighting and the need for standards back then for insta
lling gas lines in buildings. Since I haven really researched it, I'm just guessing. Now that I've become curious, I must vanish for a while and read up on the history of the organization, dammit! á•™(‡€€¸†¼€¶)á•—

[8~{} Uncle Code Monster




The conduit was not an old gas line. It would have been all new at the
time and of greater diameter that the pipe used for gas lighting.

It would have been essentially impossible to pull wires through that
thin diameter pipe.


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!

On 8/12/2015 3:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:

A lot of times I'll go into a building and see junctions completely
disconnected.

pretend you were converting a home from gas lighting to
electrical lighting back in the day, where would you install
the wiring if not knob and tube? If I already had a pipe
somewhere that was no longer being used for gas, I think I'd
use it as a conduit for wire. Of course wiring practices
evolved and changed as standards were published and inspections
became the norm. I'd guess there were many house fires cause
by the ignorance of that magical source of energy, electricity.
That's probably the reason the rules and standards for electrical
wiring were codified by the National Fire Protection Association
which may have come into being for that reason. I don't know the
history of the NFPA without reading about it because it may have
been around since the days of gas lighting and the need for
standards back then for installing gas lines in buildings.
Since I haven really researched it, I'm just guessing. Now
that I've become curious, I must vanish for a while and read
up on the history of the organization, dammit! á•™(‡€€¸†¼€¶)á•—

[8~{} Uncle Code Monster


I suspect that a bunch of fires got tired of the discrimination
and poor treatment in bars and establishments. They formed an
association, after they saw the success of NAACP and JPFO, and
the other anti discrimination groups.

Fire lives matter!!


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 8/12/2015 7:27 AM, philo wrote:
The conduit was not an old gas line. It would have been all new at the
time and of greater diameter that the pipe used for gas lighting.

It would have been essentially impossible to pull wires through that
thin diameter pipe.


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!



I've heard that when removing fuel oil tanks, it's
important to block the fill line. Can't quote a source,
but at least a couple homes have come home to find
200 gal of fuel poured into their cellar, with no
tank to contain it. One wise fellow plugged the tube
with cement. Problem is the delivery driver was a bigger
idiot, and chiselled it out so he could make his delivery.

Hope you took pictures of the light switch for the various
web sites that feature such things.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:27:03 -0500, philo wrote:

On 08/12/2015 02:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:


From your description of what you were cutting out, it appears to be ridged conduit. I can imagine that it's a fun job. If you think about the why of rigid conduit, pretend you were converting a home from gas lighting to electrical lighting back in the day, where would you install the wiring if not knob and tube? If I already had a pipe somewhere that was no longer being used for gas, I think I'd use it as a conduit for wire. Of course wiring practices evolved and changed as standards were published and inspections became the norm. I'd guess there were many house fires cause by the ignorance of that magical source of energy, electricity. That's probably the reason the rules and standards for electrical wiring were codified by the National Fire Protection Association which may have come into being for that reason. I don't know the history of the NFPA without reading about it because it may have been around since the days of gas lighting and the need for standards back then for
insta
lling gas lines in buildings. Since I haven really researched it, I'm just guessing. Now that I've become curious, I must vanish for a while and read up on the history of the organization, dammit! ?(????)?

[8~{} Uncle Code Monster




The conduit was not an old gas line. It would have been all new at the
time and of greater diameter that the pipe used for gas lighting.

It would have been essentially impossible to pull wires through that
thin diameter pipe.


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!


You are not getting wires through elbows either.

They did convert gas light fixtures to electric tho and that is
probably why fixtures use NPT size threads today. They are running
threads instead of taper but it is still NPT even when they come from
offshore.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 6:27:10 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 08/12/2015 02:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:


From your description of what you were cutting out, it appears to be ridged conduit. I can imagine that it's a fun job. If you think about the why of rigid conduit, pretend you were converting a home from gas lighting to electrical lighting back in the day, where would you install the wiring if not knob and tube? If I already had a pipe somewhere that was no longer being used for gas, I think I'd use it as a conduit for wire. Of course wiring practices evolved and changed as standards were published and inspections became the norm. I'd guess there were many house fires cause by the ignorance of that magical source of energy, electricity. That's probably the reason the rules and standards for electrical wiring were codified by the National Fire Protection Association which may have come into being for that reason. I don't know the history of the NFPA without reading about it because it may have been around since the days of gas lighting and the need for standards back then for insta
lling gas lines in buildings. Since I haven really researched it, I'm just guessing. Now that I've become curious, I must vanish for a while and read up on the history of the organization, dammit! á•™(‡€€¸†¼€¶)á•—

[8~{} Uncle Code Monster




The conduit was not an old gas line. It would have been all new at the
time and of greater diameter that the pipe used for gas lighting.

It would have been essentially impossible to pull wires through that
thin diameter pipe.


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!

I don't think you mentioned how old the house was, just the wiring. Of course the tiny pipes wouldn't work for wiring with the very old pitch and cloth insulated wire but the 1/2 inch and larger pipes would. One thing that would be interesting would be to pull a single old style wire through the small gas line going to a gas light that's been converted into an electric light using the metal pipe for a neutral. Of course modern plastic insulated lamp cord will fit through one of those small gas lines going to a gas light making conversion to an electric light easier. It would be pretty slick to use bright LED's to mimic a flickering gas flame. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Light Monster

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 9:19:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:27:03 -0500, philo wrote:

On 08/12/2015 02:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:


From your description of what you were cutting out, it appears to be ridged conduit. I can imagine that it's a fun job. If you think about the why of rigid conduit, pretend you were converting a home from gas lighting to electrical lighting back in the day, where would you install the wiring if not knob and tube? If I already had a pipe somewhere that was no longer being used for gas, I think I'd use it as a conduit for wire. Of course wiring practices evolved and changed as standards were published and inspections became the norm. I'd guess there were many house fires cause by the ignorance of that magical source of energy, electricity. That's probably the reason the rules and standards for electrical wiring were codified by the National Fire Protection Association which may have come into being for that reason. I don't know the history of the NFPA without reading about it because it may have been around since the days of gas lighting and the need for standards back then for
insta
lling gas lines in buildings. Since I haven really researched it, I'm just guessing. Now that I've become curious, I must vanish for a while and read up on the history of the organization, dammit! ?(????)?

[8~{} Uncle Code Monster




The conduit was not an old gas line. It would have been all new at the
time and of greater diameter that the pipe used for gas lighting.

It would have been essentially impossible to pull wires through that
thin diameter pipe.


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!


You are not getting wires through elbows either.

They did convert gas light fixtures to electric tho and that is
probably why fixtures use NPT size threads today. They are running
threads instead of taper but it is still NPT even when they come from
offshore.

I considered 90 degree gas/water elbows and I'm sure someone figured that out too back then but imagine if you had a 3/4" pipe from basement to the upper floor that was no longer going to be used for gas lighting and you needed to get power up there. I'd take the elbows and valves off that pipe and run the wires through that. Friction tape could be used to protect the wire where it entered the pipe since insulating or cast metal bushings hadn't been invented yet. I'm sure plastic electrical tape was a dream at the time. A smart fellow figured out how to make conduit elbows in those days as electrical power wiring evolved. I've made my own elbows out of rigid conduit for many years. I'm out of practice now but I was able to eliminate a lot of separate elbows and couplings on big jobs because I could put a 90 degree bend in the middle of a stick of 4" rigid conduit and make it fit exactly without using nipples and couplings to make up for poor measurements. A lot of guys slapped their conduit runs in willy-nilly and they looked like hell. I made my own bends because if I had stiff cable to install, I could make a wide radius elbow which would make pulling the cable into the pipe so much easier. Elimination of as many couplings as possible made pulling wire a lot easier because there were fewer places for the end of a fish tape or wire bundle to get hung on or stuck especially in the area around an elbow. It would be fun to research the evolution of electrical wiring in the United States starting with Edison's DC power systems for cities and the take over of the power grid by Tesla's AC power standard. Just think, if J.P.Morgan hadn't pulled the rug out from under Tesla, we'd have a technically mature wireless power grid by now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Electric Monster

On 08/12/2015 09:04 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!


You are not getting wires through elbows either.

They did convert gas light fixtures to electric tho and that is
probably why fixtures use NPT size threads today. They are running
threads instead of taper but it is still NPT even when they come from
offshore.

I considered 90 degree gas/water elbows and I'm sure someone figured that out too back then but imagine if you had a 3/4" pipe from basement to the upper floor that was no longer going to be used for gas lighting and you needed to get power up there. I'd take the elbows and valves off that pipe and run the wires through that. Friction tape could be used to protect the wire where it entered the pipe since insulating or cast metal bushings hadn't been invented yet. I'm sure plastic electrical tape was a dream at the time. A smart fellow figured out how to make conduit elbows in those days as electrical power wiring evolved. I've made my own elbows out of rigid conduit for many years. I'm out of practice now but I was able to eliminate a lot of separate elbows and couplings on big jobs because I could put a 90 degree bend in the middle of a stick of 4" rigid conduit and make it fit exactly without using nipples and couplings to make up for poor measurements. A lot of guys slapped their
conduit runs in willy-nilly and they looked like hell. I made my own bends because if I had stiff cable to install, I could make a wide radius elbow which would make pulling the cable into the pipe so much easier. Elimination of as many couplings as possible made pulling wire a lot easier because there were fewer places for the end of a fish tape or wire bundle to get hung on or stuck especially in the area around an elbow. It would be fun to research the evolution of electrical wiring in the United States starting with Edison's DC power systems for cities and the take over of the power grid by Tesla's AC power standard. Just think, if J.P.Morgan hadn't pulled the rug out from under Tesla, we'd have a technically mature wireless power grid by now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Electric Monster




Several reasons why one could not use gas pipe for wiring:

Some of the pipes are only 1/2" outer diameter and though I did not
measure I.D. the pipe is thicker than electrical conduit and therefore
less room inside.

The old wire has much thicker insulation than current production...it
was rubber and cloth coated and an insulated #14 wire is about as thick
as present day, insulated #10

Finally: You cannot simply remove an elbow...you'd have to take off all
pipe that comes after it.

On 08/12/2015 05:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!

I don't think you mentioned how old the house was, just the wiring. Of course the tiny pipes wouldn't work for wiring with the very old pitch and cloth insulated wire but the 1/2 inch and larger pipes would. One thing that would be interesting would be to pull a single old style wire through the small gas line going to a gas light that's been converted into an electric light using the metal pipe for a neutral. Of course modern plastic insulated lamp cord will fit through one of those small gas lines going to a gas light making conversion to an electric light easier. It would be pretty slick to use bright LED's to mimic a flickering gas flame. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Light Monster




House was built in 1898.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 9:28:05 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 08/12/2015 09:04 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


Though they were capped off of course, the gas lighting pipes were still
connected when I moved into my house and one of the first things I did
was to disconnect them.

Fortunately there was a junction in the basement so I could disconnect
them all at once.


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!


You are not getting wires through elbows either.

They did convert gas light fixtures to electric tho and that is
probably why fixtures use NPT size threads today. They are running
threads instead of taper but it is still NPT even when they come from
offshore.

I considered 90 degree gas/water elbows and I'm sure someone figured that out too back then but imagine if you had a 3/4" pipe from basement to the upper floor that was no longer going to be used for gas lighting and you needed to get power up there. I'd take the elbows and valves off that pipe and run the wires through that. Friction tape could be used to protect the wire where it entered the pipe since insulating or cast metal bushings hadn't been invented yet. I'm sure plastic electrical tape was a dream at the time. A smart fellow figured out how to make conduit elbows in those days as electrical power wiring evolved. I've made my own elbows out of rigid conduit for many years. I'm out of practice now but I was able to eliminate a lot of separate elbows and couplings on big jobs because I could put a 90 degree bend in the middle of a stick of 4" rigid conduit and make it fit exactly without using nipples and couplings to make up for poor measurements. A lot of guys slapped their
conduit runs in willy-nilly and they looked like hell. I made my own bends because if I had stiff cable to install, I could make a wide radius elbow which would make pulling the cable into the pipe so much easier. Elimination of as many couplings as possible made pulling wire a lot easier because there were fewer places for the end of a fish tape or wire bundle to get hung on or stuck especially in the area around an elbow. It would be fun to research the evolution of electrical wiring in the United States starting with Edison's DC power systems for cities and the take over of the power grid by Tesla's AC power standard. Just think, if J.P.Morgan hadn't pulled the rug out from under Tesla, we'd have a technically mature wireless power grid by now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Electric Monster


Several reasons why one could not use gas pipe for wiring:

Some of the pipes are only 1/2" outer diameter and though I did not
measure I.D. the pipe is thicker than electrical conduit and therefore
less room inside.

The old wire has much thicker insulation than current production...it
was rubber and cloth coated and an insulated #14 wire is about as thick
as present day, insulated #10

Finally: You cannot simply remove an elbow...you'd have to take off all
pipe that comes after it.

I wasn't recommending that you should do it. I was wondering about how the early electricians would go about wiring a house back at the end of the 19th century when buildings were being converted to electric lighting. (Š™_˜‰)

[8~{} Uncle Old Monster

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 9:30:30 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 08/12/2015 05:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!

I don't think you mentioned how old the house was, just the wiring. Of course the tiny pipes wouldn't work for wiring with the very old pitch and cloth insulated wire but the 1/2 inch and larger pipes would. One thing that would be interesting would be to pull a single old style wire through the small gas line going to a gas light that's been converted into an electric light using the metal pipe for a neutral. Of course modern plastic insulated lamp cord will fit through one of those small gas lines going to a gas light making conversion to an electric light easier. It would be pretty slick to use bright LED's to mimic a flickering gas flame. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Light Monster


House was built in 1898.

Well heck, that house is almost as old as you are. à²*€¿à²*

[8~{} Uncle Ancient Monster

On 08/12/2015 11:42 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:



Several reasons why one could not use gas pipe for wiring:

Some of the pipes are only 1/2" outer diameter and though I did not
measure I.D. the pipe is thicker than electrical conduit and therefore
less room inside.

The old wire has much thicker insulation than current production...it
was rubber and cloth coated and an insulated #14 wire is about as thick
as present day, insulated #10

Finally: You cannot simply remove an elbow...you'd have to take off all
pipe that comes after it.

I wasn't recommending that you should do it. I was wondering about how the early electricians would go about wiring a house back at the end of the 19th century when buildings were being converted to electric lighting. (Š™_˜‰)

[8~{} Uncle Old Monster



For new construction, knob and tube was typically used...
but once a house is built, it pretty much has to be conduit and BX.



One real bad thing I found with knob and tube was water leakage.


A woman wanted me to check the wiring in her daughter's bathroom as she
sometimes got shocks while taking a shower.


It turned out that there was knob and tube wiring behind the wall and
moisture from the shower formed a conduction path.


I immediately turned off that breaker and told her to get a real
electrician to rewire that area.


I later found out that she ignored my advice and simply turned the
breaker back on. The house was sold, not too long after that.

On 08/12/2015 11:44 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 9:30:30 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 08/12/2015 05:06 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


Another thing I did almost immediately after I moved in here was to take
the light switch out of the shower stall!!!!!

I don't think you mentioned how old the house was, just the wiring. Of course the tiny pipes wouldn't work for wiring with the very old pitch and cloth insulated wire but the 1/2 inch and larger pipes would. One thing that would be interesting would be to pull a single old style wire through the small gas line going to a gas light that's been converted into an electric light using the metal pipe for a neutral. Of course modern plastic insulated lamp cord will fit through one of those small gas lines going to a gas light making conversion to an electric light easier. It would be pretty slick to use bright LED's to mimic a flickering gas flame. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Light Monster


House was built in 1898.

Well heck, that house is almost as old as you are. à²*€¿à²*

[8~{} Uncle Ancient Monster




Yep!


I checked out the history of the former owners and in the early 1920's a
cigar roller lived here.

Back in those days cigar rolling was typically done in the home...so for
all I know people sat around here and rolled cigars. I once heard a
radio program on cigar rollers and they'd typically sit at a long table
and each day one person would be the designated reader. One person would
read from a book while the others rolled. This would have been in the
pre-radio days I guess.

I have no evidence to back that up but do know that one of the
electricians who wired the house in 1932 smoked Lucky Strike. I found an
empty pack (green label) in the wall along with a tag that would have
come on a roll of BX.

Although there may be nostalgia with tobacco, I have a lot of friends
who were killed by smoking or have severe health issues. When my wife
moved in here 15 years ago...my rule was "no smoking in the house"


One of those -20F Wisconsin winters thankfully cured of of that habit.

"philo" wrote in message ...

On 08/10/2015 11:45 PM, micky wrote:



I am also correcting the wiring to make sure that the light switches
actually disconnect the hot side....not all of them did.

When I was 19, I found that in our fraternity house, built as a large
house maybe 1920? but I thought it was my mistake, not the house's. It
didn't occur to me to fix it.




Actually there were those brush type carpet sweepers (I think they still
make them) My mom had one before she bought a vac.


Uh huh........ Fascinating! NOT

philo posted for all of us...



One real bad thing I found with knob and tube was water leakage.


A woman wanted me to check the wiring in her daughter's bathroom as she
sometimes got shocks while taking a shower.


It turned out that there was knob and tube wiring behind the wall and
moisture from the shower formed a conduction path.


Did you get in the shower with her? What did she look like when she got the
jolt?

--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

On 8/13/15 8:09 AM, philo wrote:
For new construction, knob and tube was typically used...
but once a house is built, it pretty much has to be conduit and BX.

I don't understand why. This house had been around for some time when
it was wired with knob and tube in the late 1920s.


One real bad thing I found with knob and tube was water leakage.


A woman wanted me to check the wiring in her daughter's bathroom as she
sometimes got shocks while taking a shower.


It turned out that there was knob and tube wiring behind the wall and
moisture from the shower formed a conduction path.


I immediately turned off that breaker and told her to get a real
electrician to rewire that area.


I later found out that she ignored my advice and simply turned the
breaker back on. The house was sold, not too long after that.

I can get a tingle from a 9V battery, but it doesn't worry me.

My sister's husband wanted a lamp on in the hen house at night. He could
have buried a length of proper cable, as we'd done to power his shop.
Instead, he left an extension cord across the driveway, day after day,
year after year.

The light had no switch. He would plug it in at dusk. She would unplug
it at dawn. One year, she complained that she was getting shocks. He
said that was nonsense. He never got a shock.

I said things were usually dry at dusk. At dawn, she'd be standing in
wet grass, and there could be dew on the connectors. I said it could be
dangerous. If the current went between her thumb and finger, that could
be unpleasant. If it went from her hand to her feet, and one morning
the leakage was worse, it could be fatal.

Mildew on the plug and socket might have explained leakage. I scrubbed
them, let them dry, looked for cracks in the insulation, tried them with
my hand, and tried them with a meter. I found nothing, but she later
said she was still feeling a tingle. I'm not sure if he ever agreed to
replace the cord. He could easily have replace the outlet with a GFI,
but he would have considered it inconvenient to have the breaker trip
every time there was an electrical hazard for my sister.

A few years later, when he built his dream bathroom, he installed a
ceiling light/heater/vent and put the switch by the shower, four feet
from the door. It had a metal face plate and no grounding conductor. The
drywall wasn't up when I saw it. I told him a light switch would be
more convenient by the door, and it could be fatal by the shower. He
wouldn't move it. I asked to move it for him. He said no.

When his daughter was in college, I was present when she told her fiance
about the time she got injured by touching the face plate accidentally
while barefoot on a wet floor. She called me. She seemed to glow like
a light bulb when she recalled, "Then he got mad!" If she hadn't seen
my outrage, her father probably would have made her feel that it was
somehow her fault.

At household frequencies, 100 ma will kill almost anybody, and 60 ma
will kill some adults. The average woman can't let go above 10 ma, but
even small children can let go at 5 ma. A GFI for wet conditions is
normally set for 5 ma.

I don't think knob and tube is inherently unsafe. My electric fence had
600 connections, where wires were clipped to dirty fiberglass posts or
to insulators nailed to wood, which would be wet when it rained. My
charger produced 15 times more voltage than household power, but if I
lost 5ma in the rain, it would be because of weeds or bad insulators.

Knob and tube uses the same system, depending on ceramic insulators and
not the rubber on the wire. The threshold for perception of electrical
current is 100 microamps, far below what's dangerous, but I'd look into
it. I'd clip a meter between the valve and the drain to measure the
leakage. I'd expect the source of leakage to be visible, such as a pipe
in contact with obsolete, aged rubber insulation. I wouldn't expect 100
microamps across insulators unless they were really dirty, and wet. If
it's feasible to remedy the problem, why rewire?

Naturally, something should be done to stop the wiring from getting wet.
Wet wood rots, and termites love it.