I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in case it
matters) is governed by a homeowners association. She seems to have at
least one or two major power outages a year due to summer storm damage, as
well as winter snow storm damage. The power outages are almost always
caused by wires down in her area from falling tree limbs etc., and her area
is almost always one of the last to get their power back on. When she has a
power outage, it is often for several days up to a week or more. Her home
is all electric -- meaning electric heat pump, electric central A/C,
electric hot water, and electric stove/oven etc. None of the homes in her
area have natural gas service, but she believes that there may be a natural
gas line that runs along the roadway behind her house. So, one possible
option may be for her to get a natural gas connection to her home from
there, and she is going to ask the natural gas utility company about that.

Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is considering
getting a back-up generator system installed. One option seems to be to get
a propane generator. And, I think that it may be a good idea to have it
connected by an electrician to one of those manual switch-over (cross-over?)
breaker devices in the main electric panel. Then, if there was a power
outage, she could do the switchover to the generator power and not be
without power for days on end.

Here are a few of my questions:

1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that
she may need? She probably would only need some basic items powered, but I
wonder what she would need if she also wanted to be able to keep the heat
pump on in the winter and the central air on in the summer, plus some
lighting, the refrigerator/freezer, etc.

2) How long will the various size propane tanks last before needing to be
refilled? I know it depends on the tank size as well as the power rating of
the generator. However, she is retired and she probably would not have the
ability to lug around propane tanks to get them refilled, especially during
a snow storm. So, I am guessing that some type of larger tank that could be
refilled on site by a propane supply company may be a better option -- if
that is a possibility.

Any general ideas, information, or suggestions would be appreciated.

I will reply back with additional info if needed.

Thanks.

Per TomR:
1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that...

2) How long will the various size propane tanks last before needing to be
refilled? ...

3) For larger tanks, how does one know how much fuel is left in the
tank?
--
Pete Cresswell

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 10:03:32 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in case it
matters) is governed by a homeowners association. She seems to have at
least one or two major power outages a year due to summer storm damage, as
well as winter snow storm damage. The power outages are almost always
caused by wires down in her area from falling tree limbs etc., and her area
is almost always one of the last to get their power back on. When she has a
power outage, it is often for several days up to a week or more. Her home
is all electric -- meaning electric heat pump, electric central A/C,
electric hot water, and electric stove/oven etc. None of the homes in her
area have natural gas service, but she believes that there may be a natural
gas line that runs along the roadway behind her house. So, one possible
option may be for her to get a natural gas connection to her home from
there, and she is going to ask the natural gas utility company about that.

Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is considering
getting a back-up generator system installed. One option seems to be to get
a propane generator. And, I think that it may be a good idea to have it
connected by an electrician to one of those manual switch-over (cross-over?)
breaker devices in the main electric panel. Then, if there was a power
outage, she could do the switchover to the generator power and not be
without power for days on end.

Here are a few of my questions:

1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that
she may need? She probably would only need some basic items powered, but I
wonder what she would need if she also wanted to be able to keep the heat
pump on in the winter and the central air on in the summer, plus some
lighting, the refrigerator/freezer, etc.


The heat pump is probably the largest load. The eqpt will have
a label that will tell you the actual data, but I'd guess typical
could be in the range of 30A, assuming that electric resistance
supplemental heat is disabled. So, that's 7200W right there, with
more needed to get it started. Electric water heater is probably
next large load, if she can get by with just the water in the tank
and not heat it, that would reduce the load. Also, depends if
she's willing to manage the loads so that they aren't on at the same
time or wants the possibility that they are all on, etc.
I'd say she's probably looking at ~~15KW unit. You can probably get
by with smaller, but the cost difference for say a 15, vs a 10 isn't
that much. Especially when the cost of installation of gas lines,
propane tanks, etc is involved. The grill sized tanks aren't going
to last long running a heat pump. You can probably figure out the
run time with various size propane tanks by looking at the generator
specs, how much fuel it uses, etc.

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 10:06:54 AM UTC-5, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per TomR:
1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that...

2) How long will the various size propane tanks last before needing to be
refilled? ...

3) For larger tanks, how does one know how much fuel is left in the
tank?
--


There is a gauge on top of the larger tanks under the hinged cover where the connections for filling and supply are located. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Tank Monster

On 7/17/2015 10:03 AM, TomR wrote:
CY: Text inserted after my initials.
I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in case it
matters) is governed by a homeowners association.

CY: I'd want to check first with the HOA about
the whole matter. It is very possible they will
prohibit any thing.

She seems to have at
least one or two major power outages a year due to summer storm damage, as
well as winter snow storm damage. The power outages are almost always
caused by wires down in her area from falling tree limbs etc., and her area
is almost always one of the last to get their power back on. When she has a
power outage, it is often for several days up to a week or more.

CY: Week is a bit long, to be without power.

Her home
is all electric -- meaning electric heat pump, electric central A/C,
electric hot water, and electric stove/oven etc.

CY: That's a bad choice, to move into an all electric
house in a HOA. Not much to be done now, but advice to
all who are looking to buy a home....

None of the homes in her
area have natural gas service, but she believes that there may be a natural
gas line that runs along the roadway behind her house. So, one possible
option may be for her to get a natural gas connection to her home from
there, and she is going to ask the natural gas utility company about that.

CY: Other option is a propane tank on site.
If the HOA will permit, that is.


Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is considering
getting a back-up generator system installed. One option seems to be to get
a propane generator. And, I think that it may be a good idea to have it
connected by an electrician to one of those manual switch-over (cross-over?)
breaker devices in the main electric panel.

CY: Transfer switch is a good idea.

Then, if there was a power
outage, she could do the switchover to the generator power and not be
without power for days on end.


CY: I like the concept.

Here are a few of my questions:

1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that
she may need?

CY: Based on what you want to operate.

She probably would only need some basic items powered, but I
wonder what she would need if she also wanted to be able to keep the heat
pump on in the winter and the central air on in the summer, plus some
lighting, the refrigerator/freezer, etc.

CY: Well, see? Not enough info. Some of the generator
companies will have that info.


2) How long will the various size propane tanks last before needing to be
refilled? I know it depends on the tank size as well as the power rating of
the generator. However, she is retired and she probably would not have the
ability to lug around propane tanks to get them refilled, especially during
a snow storm. So, I am guessing that some type of larger tank that could be
refilled on site by a propane supply company may be a better option -- if
that is a possibility.

CY: Right, some companies will put in a tank
which they own, with the understanding you buy
propane only from them. Some companies price
cooking gas differently than heating gas. You
might also be able to put in propane furnace,
which might be cheaper than heat pump.


Any general ideas, information, or suggestions would be appreciated.


CY: I suspect your HOA will veto the entire idea.

I will reply back with additional info if needed.


CY: Can't think of much. Yellow pages is your
friend, call and see if you can find a company
that makes sense. It is also possible your friend
may need to do indoor things like flashlights and
portable free standing propane heaters, to stay
out of sight of the HOA.

Thanks.

On 7/17/2015 11:06 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

3) For larger tanks, how does one know how much fuel is left in the
tank?


Typically there is a round gage that gives
a general idea.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 7/17/2015 10:03 AM, TomR wrote:
I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.


Any general ideas, information, or suggestions would be appreciated.

I will reply back with additional info if needed.

Thanks.



There are at least a couple web sites out in the
ether, which deal with these questions. My experience
with winter power cuts, they are miserable. My own
answer is to wear more warm clothes, run the gas
range in the kitchen. After dinner, I run a wire from
my natural gas furnace to a small generztor, and run
for an hour before it gets too late in the eveing.
That makes night and sleeping so much better. Very
little of this will convert to your freind's house
in the HOA. Wish I was more help.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
I'd say she's probably looking at ~~15KW unit. You can probably get
by with smaller, but the cost difference for say a 15, vs a 10 isn't
that much. Especially when the cost of installation of gas lines,
propane tanks, etc is involved. The grill sized tanks aren't going
to last long running a heat pump. You can probably figure out the
run time with various size propane tanks by looking at the generator
specs, how much fuel it uses, etc.


I don't know about the cost of propane, but if it is anything like gasoline
going to a big generator might not be a good idea. A 15 kw unit will
probably suck a lot of fuel. While getting the fuel might not be a problem,
the cost may be.

On 7/17/2015 1:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
to last long running a heat pump. You can probably figure out the
run time with various size propane tanks by looking at the generator
specs, how much fuel it uses, etc.


I don't know about the cost of propane, but if it is anything like gasoline
going to a big generator might not be a good idea. A 15 kw unit will
probably suck a lot of fuel. While getting the fuel might not be a problem,
the cost may be.


The OP did mention power cuts and storms.
During such moments, some times fuel becomes
unavailable, as the gas stations cannot pump.
Less sure about propane. But, if trees are
down, the delivery truck may be unable to
get there. Trade offs, with any system.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 7/17/2015 1:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I don't know about the cost of propane, but if it is anything like gasoline
going to a big generator might not be a good idea. A 15 kw unit will
probably suck a lot of fuel. While getting the fuel might not be a problem,
the cost may be.



Years ago, I ran some numbers on gasoline power
generators, using numbers from sales catalogs.
How many hours at half load, gas tanks size, and
so on. If memory serves, I figured a gal of
gasoline produces 4000 watts for one hour.
Propane has less energy than gasoline. If this
SWAG all works out, figure 4 gals of propane
for one hour of wide open throttle on a 16,000
KW unit. A 100 gal tank (filled to 80 gal)
would then be 20 hours of wide open throttle.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 7/17/2015 10:03 AM, TomR wrote:
I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in case it
matters) is governed by a homeowners association.

None of the homes in her
area have natural gas service, but she believes that there may be a natural
gas line that runs along the roadway behind her house. So, one possible
option may be for her to get a natural gas connection to her home from
there, and she is going to ask the natural gas utility company about that.


Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is considering
getting a back-up generator system installed. One option seems to be to get
a propane generator.

First step is to find out if the HOA will allow a generator.

If no, we are done.

If yes, on to the next step.

If the gas is only going to power the generator, she will pay a lot of
money if the utility will even consider it. They do things for cheap if
you use a lot of gas. I was able to get a gas line brought into our
building, but our typical gas bill runs $10,000 a month. Your friend
will use $10 a year so don't expect a warm welcome.

Propane is an option, but check that HOA again. They may have a limit on
what you can have.

Next, determine what you want to work during the outages.

Go the one of the web sites by the generator makers and they have
information to help you choose the size you need. Do some research to
find a reputable installer

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Years ago, I ran some numbers on gasoline power
generators, using numbers from sales catalogs.
How many hours at half load, gas tanks size, and
so on. If memory serves, I figured a gal of
gasoline produces 4000 watts for one hour.
Propane has less energy than gasoline. If this
SWAG all works out, figure 4 gals of propane
for one hour of wide open throttle on a 16,000
KW unit. A 100 gal tank (filled to 80 gal)
would then be 20 hours of wide open throttle.


How much does propane cost to fill the tank ? If anything like gas even
running with not much of a load the 16 KW unit will use a lot more than a 5
KW unit. If your numbers are anywhere close and even if the generator is
not loaded all that heavy the tank is not going to last too long. I
understand the OP is going to be without power for several days at a time
several times a year.

They might want to opt for a dual system such as about a 1 or 2 KW inverter
type to run lights and a tv set and another larger one of around 5 or maybe
10 kw to power up the larger users such as the water heater for short
periods of time.

On 7/17/2015 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 10:03:32 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in case it
matters) is governed by a homeowners association. She seems to have at
least one or two major power outages a year due to summer storm damage, as
well as winter snow storm damage. The power outages are almost always
caused by wires down in her area from falling tree limbs etc., and her area
is almost always one of the last to get their power back on. When she has a
power outage, it is often for several days up to a week or more. Her home
is all electric -- meaning electric heat pump, electric central A/C,
electric hot water, and electric stove/oven etc. None of the homes in her
area have natural gas service, but she believes that there may be a natural
gas line that runs along the roadway behind her house. So, one possible
option may be for her to get a natural gas connection to her home from
there, and she is going to ask the natural gas utility company about that.

Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is considering
getting a back-up generator system installed. One option seems to be to get
a propane generator. And, I think that it may be a good idea to have it
connected by an electrician to one of those manual switch-over (cross-over?)
breaker devices in the main electric panel. Then, if there was a power
outage, she could do the switchover to the generator power and not be
without power for days on end.

Here are a few of my questions:

1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that
she may need? She probably would only need some basic items powered, but I
wonder what she would need if she also wanted to be able to keep the heat
pump on in the winter and the central air on in the summer, plus some
lighting, the refrigerator/freezer, etc.


The heat pump is probably the largest load. The eqpt will have
a label that will tell you the actual data, but I'd guess typical
could be in the range of 30A, assuming that electric resistance
supplemental heat is disabled. So, that's 7200W right there, with
more needed to get it started. Electric water heater is probably
next large load, if she can get by with just the water in the tank
and not heat it, that would reduce the load. Also, depends if
she's willing to manage the loads so that they aren't on at the same
time or wants the possibility that they are all on, etc.
I'd say she's probably looking at ~~15KW unit. You can probably get
by with smaller, but the cost difference for say a 15, vs a 10 isn't
that much. Especially when the cost of installation of gas lines,
propane tanks, etc is involved. The grill sized tanks aren't going
to last long running a heat pump. You can probably figure out the
run time with various size propane tanks by looking at the generator
specs, how much fuel it uses, etc.


Power requirements for any item are readily found:

http://www.centralmainediesel.com/wa...calculator.asp

I've got my gasoline powered 5,500 watt generator hooked-up to run oil
furnace, well, 2 freezers and refrigerator and a few lights and TV. Off
line are water heater, stove, clothes drier and central air. Think it
might take 5-10 gal gasoline to run all day, which I don't so I think a
propane generator would take about the same. According to the
calculator I referenced, I'm underpowered but have gotten away with it
the many times I used it.

I know a guy hooked up to a gas line with a generator that runs his
whole house which is quite large and kicks in when power fails. Set up
like that probably runs 10 grand.

around here home depot sell turn key natural gas backup generators pro installed with automatic transfer switch starting at about 5 grand. this is pretty affordable, power fails the fault is detected, the generator starts, the home is transfered to the generator till main power is restored...

this is key the switch over is automatic.

in the winter, if you happen to be out of town you could return to a frozen destroyed home.

auto switch over it requires nothing

if natural gas is available thats ideal..... gas is highly reliable.

propane is costly and the HOA may have issues with it.

the auto switch over generators are pretty quiet, hopefully HOA wouldnt block it

buy a big enough generator to have some power for the neighbors

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 1:11:11 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
I'd say she's probably looking at ~~15KW unit. You can probably get
by with smaller, but the cost difference for say a 15, vs a 10 isn't
that much. Especially when the cost of installation of gas lines,
propane tanks, etc is involved. The grill sized tanks aren't going
to last long running a heat pump. You can probably figure out the
run time with various size propane tanks by looking at the generator
specs, how much fuel it uses, etc.


I don't know about the cost of propane, but if it is anything like gasoline
going to a big generator might not be a good idea. A 15 kw unit will
probably suck a lot of fuel. While getting the fuel might not be a problem,
the cost may be.

I was just going off what was given. The OP said they wanted to
run their heat pump in the winter for heat and the in the summer for AC.
Kitchen is electric, electric WH, it adds up. I'd rather have a 15KW
that can do what's needed than a smaller one that can't. But they
really need to add up the load. It's true that a bigger engine will
use more fuel to some extent when running at lower loads than a
smaller engine would. Just like a V8 car engine idling would compared
to a 4 cylinder. But you have to size to the max load, not the
lesser.

I just went outside to take a look at my AC. It's 5 ton, 14 SEER,
minimum circuit ampacity is 36A. That's 8600W right there. I'm
sure it's pulling substantially less once it gets going. But you
need enough to start it and when starting it's going to be even
higher that 8600W. The plate calls out a min breaker size of 45A,
which gives you an idea of the starting reqts. How that compares
to the heat pump, IDK, because we have no numbers for the actual
heat pump. 5 ton AC is the largest AC, but when you're sizing for
heat in the winter, I would think having a large heat pump in
VA may not be that unusual either.

Cost of fuel, IDK. I've never heard anyone complain about the cost
of nat gas. Propane though is a lot more expensive. It all comes
down to what you want to do and how much you're willing to pay.

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 10:03:25 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in case it
matters) is governed by a homeowners association. She seems to have at
least one or two major power outages a year due to summer storm damage, as
well as winter snow storm damage. The power outages are almost always
caused by wires down in her area from falling tree limbs etc., and her area
is almost always one of the last to get their power back on. When she has a
power outage, it is often for several days up to a week or more. Her home
is all electric -- meaning electric heat pump, electric central A/C,
electric hot water, and electric stove/oven etc. None of the homes in her
area have natural gas service, but she believes that there may be a natural
gas line that runs along the roadway behind her house. So, one possible
option may be for her to get a natural gas connection to her home from
there, and she is going to ask the natural gas utility company about that.

Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is considering
getting a back-up generator system installed. One option seems to be to get
a propane generator. And, I think that it may be a good idea to have it
connected by an electrician to one of those manual switch-over (cross-over?)
breaker devices in the main electric panel. Then, if there was a power
outage, she could do the switchover to the generator power and not be
without power for days on end.

Here are a few of my questions:

1) Can anyone give a rough idea of the size (wattage) propane generator that
she may need? She probably would only need some basic items powered, but I
wonder what she would need if she also wanted to be able to keep the heat
pump on in the winter and the central air on in the summer, plus some
lighting, the refrigerator/freezer, etc.

2) How long will the various size propane tanks last before needing to be
refilled? I know it depends on the tank size as well as the power rating of
the generator. However, she is retired and she probably would not have the
ability to lug around propane tanks to get them refilled, especially during
a snow storm. So, I am guessing that some type of larger tank that could be
refilled on site by a propane supply company may be a better option -- if
that is a possibility.

Any general ideas, information, or suggestions would be appreciated.

I will reply back with additional info if needed.

Thanks.

Propane or natural gas would only make sense if it was being used for
more than just the generator as you pay for the NG service whether you
use it or not, and you'll pay for the rental of the large propane tank
too, whether you use any propane or not. Af dor the propane
consumption of the generator, about 30% more propane than you would
burn gasoline on a given generator, and count on derating the
generator output by about the same amount. My 7000 watt gasoline
generator puts out just over 5000 watts on either propane or Natural
Gas. Mine is set up to run off natural gas, but I have a propane
adapter (regulator and tank hoses) to allow it to run on Propane - and
I can still run it on Gasoline as well.

In ,
TomR typed:
I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in
Virginia in the suburbs near Richmond.

She lives in a 4 BR single family home in a development which (in
case it matters) is governed by a homeowners association. She seems
to have at least one or two major power outages a year due to summer
storm damage, as well as winter snow storm damage. . . . ,

Due to the frequency and length of the power outages, she is
considering getting a back-up generator system installed. One option
seems to be to get a propane generator. And, I think that it may be
a good idea to have it connected by an electrician to one of those
manual switch-over (cross-over?) breaker devices in the main electric
panel. Then, if there was a power outage, she could do the
switchover to the generator power and not be without power for days
on end.

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far. I read them all. Here are
some of my follow-up thoughts and ideas based on what I read:

The information about rough estimates of wattage needed for the heat pump,
central A/C, etc. was very helpful. Trying to power them does seem to lean
toward the idea that she would need about a 15 KW generator which would be
expensive.

That information started me thinking that maybe she could get by with a much
smaller generator system and not try to power the heat pump or central A/C
during an outage -- in winter or in summer. Instead, maybe she could use
the generator to power an electric room space heater or two. And, for A/C,
maybe she could just buy a small one-room window A/C unit to get by during
an outage.

The website that was suggested (
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/wa...calculator.asp ) was very helpful
to get an idea of the amount of wattage needed for various uses.

I was thinking that staying away from gasoline powered generators may be
better for a number of reasons. One is the issue of storing the gasoline,
whether it would stay stable if stored for a long time without being used,
and whether trying to get a gasoline generator started when the power does
go out may be an issue -- especially if it has been sitting around for half
a year without being used. Another issue is that of refilling a hot
generator safely, plus the question of being able to get to a gas station
for more gas during a snowstorm -- and if the gas stations will have power
to pump gas. So, that's why I was thinking of propane or natural gas
instead of gasoline.

A manual cross-over or cut-over switch instead of an automatic switchover
would work for her. She rarely travels, but if she were away during a power
outage she could easily have one of her neighbors do the manual cross-over
for the generator system.

Yes, there definitely is the question of what the HOA will allow. She would
need to see if anyone else in her area has a backup generator system and
what they have (if there are any, and if they are allowed by the HOA). One
factor that she is apparently facing that many of the other homeowners
within the HOA are not facing is the source of her electricity. She bought
her home when the development was first being built, so she is in the "Phase
1" area. In her area, the power lines are run on poles and are subject to
being knocked down by trees during storms. In the rest of the development,
they went with underground electric power lines instead of lines up on
poles. And, the power for those underground lines comes from a different
power "grid"(?) or source than the power lines on the poles. So, the rest
of her development rarely suffers any power outages. That may mean that
few, if any, other homeowners in the HOA have or need backup generators.

Whether it is possible to get a natural gas hookup is another question. In
my area, if the run is not too long, and if it means that the natural gas
utility company will get a new residential customer for gas heat, maybe gas
stove and oven, and gas hot water, they sometimes will run the pipe for
free. Or, they may charge something like $1,000 to do the new hook-up.
That's a lot of "ifs" but at least she could look into that. If she did get
a natural gas connection, she may want to replace her electric heat pump
with a natural gas heater anyway, and probably the electric stove/oven to
gas, and the electric water heater to gas.

All of these things cost money, but if the choice is to spend money on some
of these cost items (window A/C, gas heater, gas stove/oven, or whatever)
versus coughing up money for a much larger backup generator system, opting
for a smaller generator and buying gas appliances instead may be a better
idea in the long run.

"TomR" wrote in message
...
All of these things cost money, but if the choice is to spend money on
some of these cost items (window A/C, gas heater, gas stove/oven, or
whatever) versus coughing up money for a much larger backup generator
system, opting for a smaller generator and buying gas appliances instead
may be a better idea in the long run.


Lots of good ideas, but guess the main thing is how much money does she want
to spend, and how much money does she want to spend every time the poweris
out for a week or whatever those long periods of time have been in the past.
That is after that HOA. I live where I don't have to deal with that,so
never think about a HOA.

Per Frank:
I know a guy hooked up to a gas line with a generator that runs his
whole house which is quite large and kicks in when power fails. Set up
like that probably runs 10 grand.

That's the quote I got when I looked into it.

Somebody I know had a whole-house gennie with auto-cutover and automagic
self testing every so many weeks - fueled by a 500-gallon propane tank.

When our last significant outage hit (9 days for him), he discovered
that the automagic self-testing had burned up the alternator and the
thing was down hard for the entire outage. He got by on a portable.
--
Pete Cresswell

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Frank:
I know a guy hooked up to a gas line with a generator that runs his
whole house which is quite large and kicks in when power fails. Set up
like that probably runs 10 grand.

That's the quote I got when I looked into it.

Somebody I know had a whole-house gennie with auto-cutover and automagic
self testing every so many weeks - fueled by a 500-gallon propane tank.

When our last significant outage hit (9 days for him), he discovered
that the automagic self-testing had burned up the alternator and the
thing was down hard for the entire outage. He got by on a portable.


Wow, that had to be frustrating -- to have a big expensive "automatic"
backup generator system in place, and then the one time that it is needed,
it doesn't work.

On 7/18/2015 8:47 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Somebody I know had a whole-house gennie with auto-cutover and automagic
self testing every so many weeks - fueled by a 500-gallon propane tank.

When our last significant outage hit (9 days for him), he discovered
that the automagic self-testing had burned up the alternator and the
thing was down hard for the entire outage. He got by on a portable.


If you happen to ask, please get the brand of that
unit, so we can consider a different brand.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

Take a look at the generac reviews on Amazon. A lot of people with real bad reviews, even with new units. I had a neighbor with one about 5 years old, failed during an outage and dealer told him not worth fixing.

On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 23:17:24 -0400, "TomR"
wrote:

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
.. .
Per Frank:
I know a guy hooked up to a gas line with a generator that runs his
whole house which is quite large and kicks in when power fails. Set up
like that probably runs 10 grand.

That's the quote I got when I looked into it.

Somebody I know had a whole-house gennie with auto-cutover and automagic
self testing every so many weeks - fueled by a 500-gallon propane tank.

When our last significant outage hit (9 days for him), he discovered
that the automagic self-testing had burned up the alternator and the
thing was down hard for the entire outage. He got by on a portable.


Wow, that had to be frustrating -- to have a big expensive "automatic"
backup generator system in place, and then the one time that it is needed,
it doesn't work.
If it was just the alternator no reason he could not have used the
battery from the car to start it, and plug in a battery charger to
keep it up and run the ignition. (Unless you mean the BIG alternator
---in which case he WAS screwed.

On 7/19/2015 8:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Take a look at the generac reviews on Amazon.
A lot of people with real bad reviews, even with
new units. I had a neighbor with one about 5
years old, failed during an outage and dealer
told him not worth fixing.


Sounds like that unit totally failed to do what
it was paid to do. Not good.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 7/19/2015 10:25 AM, Bob wrote:

On one hand, HOAs are great. You never have to worry about your neighbor
storing a 1970s travel trailer or other unsightly junk in their yard.
OTOH, you might be restricted from

You might be restricted from many things that are inconsequential in
normal lives.

I'd never move to a place with an HOA. Fiefdoms are a thing of the past,
or at least should be.

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 09:03:25 -0500, TomR wrote:

I live in New Jersey but this is for a friend of mine who lives in
Virginia
in the suburbs near Richmond.


She/you might want to look at diesel powered generators.
Diesel fuel can sit for long periods of time and still be ok.
Tanks of diesel for irrigation use sit outside for months at a
time without any being used. There are fuel filters on them.
Off road diesel is cheaper than on road also due
to no fuel tax.

Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On one hand, HOAs are great. You never have to worry about your neighbor
storing a 1970s travel trailer or other unsightly junk in their yard.
OTOH, you might be restricted from running a generator to keep your pipes
from freezing. So the $64K question is, will the HOA even allow the
install of a buried propane tank and a generator?

Another consideration is that if power outages are a problem for your friend,
they are likely a problem for everyone in the HOA. With member support,
maybe the HOA could install a community propane tank and amend it's rules
to allow individual generators? If not, your friend is screwed.

On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 8:46:46 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/19/2015 10:25 AM, Bob wrote:

On one hand, HOAs are great. You never have to worry about your neighbor
storing a 1970s travel trailer or other unsightly junk in their yard.
OTOH, you might be restricted from

You might be restricted from many things that are inconsequential in
normal lives.

I'd never move to a place with an HOA. Fiefdoms are a thing of the past,
or at least should be.

I wish I could live on my family's farm which is on top of a mountain and has a 1/4 mile long driveway. The privacy is priceless. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Farm Monster

[snip]

Lots of good ideas, but guess the main thing is how much money does she want
to spend, and how much money does she want to spend every time the poweris
out for a week or whatever those long periods of time have been in the past.
That is after that HOA. I live where I don't have to deal with that,so
never think about a HOA.



We don't have a HOA here, but we do have hot sticky summers. I expect
I'll never have a generator big enough to run the central A/C (3 ton),
but can use a window unit in one room.

BTW, we had a power outage this summer (it was caused by a tornado) and
the window A/C helped a lot.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I'm a born-again atheist." [Gore Vidal]

On 07/19/2015 08:36 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/19/2015 8:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Take a look at the generac reviews on Amazon.
A lot of people with real bad reviews, even with
new units. I had a neighbor with one about 5
years old, failed during an outage and dealer
told him not worth fixing.


Sounds like that unit totally failed to do what
it was paid to do. Not good.


It seems like there ought to be some sort of warranty coverage, even
after several years. When you buy an expensive thing and don't get ANY
use out of it.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I'm a born-again atheist." [Gore Vidal]

On 7/19/2015 2:03 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 07/19/2015 08:36 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/19/2015 8:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Take a look at the generac reviews on Amazon.
A lot of people with real bad reviews, even with
new units. I had a neighbor with one about 5
years old, failed during an outage and dealer
told him not worth fixing.


Sounds like that unit totally failed to do what
it was paid to do. Not good.


It seems like there ought to be some sort of warranty coverage, even
after several years. When you buy an expensive thing and don't get ANY
use out of it.


Sure, park a $40,000 Buick in your garage for four years and see what
kind of warranty coverage you get.

Perhaps it should have been used more to maintain it in working order.
Many generators are started once a month for that reason.

Per TomR:

Wow, that had to be frustrating -- to have a big expensive "automatic"
backup generator system in place, and then the one time that it is needed,
it doesn't work.

Made me feel a little better about my "Lifeboat" (as opposed to "Cruise
Ship") implementation using two Honda EU2000's in parallel.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per trader_4:
Take a look at the generac reviews on Amazon. A lot of people with real bad reviews, even with new units. I had a neighbor with one about 5 years old, failed during an outage and dealer told him not worth fixing.

We had a six-hour outage last week and I rode my bike around the
neighborhood looking/listening. Saw one Generac working, saw a single
lady's not working with a neighbor trying to figure out why...
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Ed Pawlowski:
You might be restricted from many things that are inconsequential in
normal lives.

I'd never move to a place with an HOA. Fiefdoms are a thing of the past,
or at least should be.

I arrived at the same conclusion after watching a few condo buildings in
Hawaii. I came away with the impression that participation in HOA
governing bodies attracts a certain type of person - and it's not the
type of person I would want running my life, even a tiny sliver of it.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 7/19/2015 5:09 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per trader_4:
Take a look at the generac reviews on Amazon. A lot of people with real bad reviews, even with new units. I had a neighbor with one about 5 years old, failed during an outage and dealer told him not worth fixing.

We had a six-hour outage last week and I rode my bike around the
neighborhood looking/listening. Saw one Generac working, saw a single
lady's not working with a neighbor trying to figure out why...


It started from this tropic port, on a six
hour outage; a six hour outages. The weather
started getting rough, the tiny neighborhood
was rocked. With one Generac running, one out.
A guy with two Hondas, and the Perfesser and
Maryann..... here on alt home repair....

EVERYBODY SING! You know the tune!


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 7/18/2015 8:47 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Frank:
I know a guy hooked up to a gas line with a generator that runs his
whole house which is quite large and kicks in when power fails. Set up
like that probably runs 10 grand.

That's the quote I got when I looked into it.

Somebody I know had a whole-house gennie with auto-cutover and automagic
self testing every so many weeks - fueled by a 500-gallon propane tank.

When our last significant outage hit (9 days for him), he discovered
that the automagic self-testing had burned up the alternator and the
thing was down hard for the entire outage. He got by on a portable.


Heard that story from someone else who said his son had set his house up
with such a generator and it failed first time he needed it.

My portable generator, 9 years old, works fine.

Per Frank:
Heard that story from someone else who said his son had set his house up
with such a generator and it failed first time he needed it.

My portable generator, 9 years old, works fine.

Unless outages are more frequent that they are around here, I think the
substantial PITA factor of deploying two portables is more than
compensated for by the reliability factor of a much simpler setup.

I started out with a single portable (2kw) because our house cruises on
800-1200 watts. Got the second one for redundancy - but being able to
run the big microwave, the toaster, and/or the coffee maker is a
nice-to-have.


A few more years and I may have a change of heart... but that's the way
I see it now.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 9:08:26 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Frank:
Heard that story from someone else who said his son had set his house up
with such a generator and it failed first time he needed it.

My portable generator, 9 years old, works fine.

Unless outages are more frequent that they are around here, I think the
substantial PITA factor of deploying two portables is more than
compensated for by the reliability factor of a much simpler setup.

I started out with a single portable (2kw) because our house cruises on
800-1200 watts. Got the second one for redundancy - but being able to
run the big microwave, the toaster, and/or the coffee maker is a
nice-to-have.


A few more years and I may have a change of heart... but that's the way
I see it now.
--
Pete Cresswell

if you ever vacation in the winter where things can freeze.you will regret the day you didnt get a automatic standby generator.

as your cleaing up and dealing with frozen smashed toilets, frozen dishwasher, frozen washing machine etc etc.....

if you have a boiler for stem heat, it will be very worse.....

if you get a auto standby geneator that doesnt stop you from buying a portable too.

and with all the computer hacking the feds have admitted our power grid can be attacked.

so add in someone intentionally turning our power off

On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 9:59:57 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 9:08:26 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Frank:
Heard that story from someone else who said his son had set his house up
with such a generator and it failed first time he needed it.

My portable generator, 9 years old, works fine.

Unless outages are more frequent that they are around here, I think the
substantial PITA factor of deploying two portables is more than
compensated for by the reliability factor of a much simpler setup.

I started out with a single portable (2kw) because our house cruises on
800-1200 watts. Got the second one for redundancy - but being able to
run the big microwave, the toaster, and/or the coffee maker is a
nice-to-have.


A few more years and I may have a change of heart... but that's the way
I see it now.
--
Pete Cresswell

if you ever vacation in the winter where things can freeze.you will regret the day you didnt get a automatic standby generator.

as your cleaing up and dealing with frozen smashed toilets, frozen dishwasher, frozen washing machine etc etc.....

if you have a boiler for stem heat, it will be very worse.....

if you get a auto standby geneator that doesnt stop you from buying a portable too.

and with all the computer hacking the feds have admitted our power grid can be attacked.

so add in someone intentionally turning our power off

lastly if you have a auto backup generator at least monthly trip off the main breaker, and allow the backup to do its thing and confirm it works......

i mean isnt that common sense?

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:03:02 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 9:59:57 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 9:08:26 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Frank:
Heard that story from someone else who said his son had set his house up
with such a generator and it failed first time he needed it.

My portable generator, 9 years old, works fine.

Unless outages are more frequent that they are around here, I think the
substantial PITA factor of deploying two portables is more than
compensated for by the reliability factor of a much simpler setup.

I started out with a single portable (2kw) because our house cruises on
800-1200 watts. Got the second one for redundancy - but being able to
run the big microwave, the toaster, and/or the coffee maker is a
nice-to-have.


A few more years and I may have a change of heart... but that's the way
I see it now.
--
Pete Cresswell

if you ever vacation in the winter where things can freeze.you will regret the day you didnt get a automatic standby generator.

as your cleaing up and dealing with frozen smashed toilets, frozen dishwasher, frozen washing machine etc etc.....

if you have a boiler for stem heat, it will be very worse.....

if you get a auto standby geneator that doesnt stop you from buying a portable too.

and with all the computer hacking the feds have admitted our power grid can be attacked.

so add in someone intentionally turning our power off

lastly if you have a auto backup generator at least monthly trip off the main breaker, and allow the backup to do its thing and confirm it works......

i mean isnt that common sense?
The only thing worse than not having a generator when you need one
is having one, depending on it, and having it not work.