Thought I'd start a new thread.

I spent about five hours yesterday taking apart and cleaning the a/c
condenser. It didn't help.

When I arrived on scene, the a/c was working fine. Cold air was blowing
out of the vents. The refrigerant drier cannister happens to be located
on the small line outside the evaporator. This line was very slightly
warm to the touch. The larger copper line going into the evaporator was
cold to the touch. The outside of the plenum was also cold (not
freezing).

After about 30 minutes, the a/c unit's fan turned off, the furnace fan
remained on, and the evaporator line outside the plenum, and the plenum,
got warmer.

Time to clean the condenser. I turned off the thermostat, pilled the 40
amp fuse at the a/c unit, and disassembled the side panels, the fan, and
any wiring as necessary. The compressor had an orange vinyl insulated
sort of pull down 'hat' over it. I took that off, too, to get the
compressor specs, if needed, and I put my hand on top of the compressor.
It was hot enough that I couldn't keep my hand on it for more than a
second or so, but not hot enough to cause immediate burns.

There were lots of leaves in the drip pan, but not much came out of the
condenser. I first vacuumed both sides of the entire consenser, and
there was not much debris at all. I then wetted and sprayed foam on the
outside, and rinsed from both the outside and inside, until all runoff
water was clear. Actually, I was surprised at how little dust/dirt there
was. The only thing that was really dirty was the temp sensing unit that
sits on the small copper line, right where it enters the compressor. I
removed it and cleaned it off good.

I got it put back together, turned it on. The outside temp was now 100
degrees. The indoor temp was 77, and I called for 66 at the thermostat.
Cool air started coming out, measured at 64 degrees (I guess the attic
ductwork was really hot) and it ran fine for about 40 minutes. Then,
warm air came out. The a/c fan stopped. I hand checked hand temps at
the plenum, and it was warming up again.

Crap.

I'm calling another company out for a another look before I replace
anyting major.

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread.

I spent about five hours yesterday taking apart and cleaning the a/c
condenser. It didn't help.

When I arrived on scene, the a/c was working fine. Cold air was blowing
out of the vents. The refrigerant drier cannister happens to be located
on the small line outside the evaporator. This line was very slightly
warm to the touch. The larger copper line going into the evaporator was
cold to the touch. The outside of the plenum was also cold (not
freezing).

After about 30 minutes, the a/c unit's fan turned off, the furnace fan
remained on, and the evaporator line outside the plenum, and the plenum,
got warmer.

Time to clean the condenser. I turned off the thermostat, pilled the 40
amp fuse at the a/c unit, and disassembled the side panels, the fan, and
any wiring as necessary. The compressor had an orange vinyl insulated
sort of pull down 'hat' over it. I took that off, too, to get the
compressor specs, if needed, and I put my hand on top of the compressor.
It was hot enough that I couldn't keep my hand on it for more than a
second or so, but not hot enough to cause immediate burns.

There were lots of leaves in the drip pan, but not much came out of the
condenser. I first vacuumed both sides of the entire consenser, and
there was not much debris at all. I then wetted and sprayed foam on the
outside, and rinsed from both the outside and inside, until all runoff
water was clear. Actually, I was surprised at how little dust/dirt there
was. The only thing that was really dirty was the temp sensing unit that
sits on the small copper line, right where it enters the compressor. I
removed it and cleaned it off good.

I got it put back together, turned it on. The outside temp was now 100
degrees. The indoor temp was 77, and I called for 66 at the thermostat.
Cool air started coming out, measured at 64 degrees (I guess the attic
ductwork was really hot) and it ran fine for about 40 minutes. Then,
warm air came out. The a/c fan stopped. I hand checked hand temps at
the plenum, and it was warming up again.

Crap.

I'm calling another company out for a another look before I replace
anyting major.

I would look at a wiring diagram for the unit and see what
it takes for the condenser fan to stop running. IDK how they
are wired, but my first thought would be that the thermal
protection for the compressor would stop just the compressor,
not the fan too. If that's true, then something else is
wrong, eg bad contactor, that is stopping both the compressor
and the fan......

trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread.

I spent about five hours yesterday taking apart and cleaning the a/c
condenser. It didn't help.

When I arrived on scene, the a/c was working fine. Cold air was
blowing out of the vents. The refrigerant drier cannister happens
to be located on the small line outside the evaporator. This line
was very slightly warm to the touch. The larger copper line going
into the evaporator was cold to the touch. The outside of the
plenum was also cold (not freezing).

After about 30 minutes, the a/c unit's fan turned off, the furnace
fan remained on, and the evaporator line outside the plenum, and the
plenum, got warmer.

Time to clean the condenser. I turned off the thermostat, pilled
the 40 amp fuse at the a/c unit, and disassembled the side panels,
the fan, and any wiring as necessary. The compressor had an orange
vinyl insulated sort of pull down 'hat' over it. I took that off,
too, to get the compressor specs, if needed, and I put my hand on
top of the compressor. It was hot enough that I couldn't keep my
hand on it for more than a second or so, but not hot enough to cause
immediate burns.

There were lots of leaves in the drip pan, but not much came out of
the condenser. I first vacuumed both sides of the entire consenser,
and there was not much debris at all. I then wetted and sprayed
foam on the outside, and rinsed from both the outside and inside,
until all runoff water was clear. Actually, I was surprised at how
little dust/dirt there was. The only thing that was really dirty
was the temp sensing unit that sits on the small copper line, right
where it enters the compressor. I removed it and cleaned it off
good.

I got it put back together, turned it on. The outside temp was now
100 degrees. The indoor temp was 77, and I called for 66 at the
thermostat. Cool air started coming out, measured at 64 degrees (I
guess the attic ductwork was really hot) and it ran fine for about
40 minutes. Then, warm air came out. The a/c fan stopped. I hand
checked hand temps at the plenum, and it was warming up again.

Crap.

I'm calling another company out for a another look before I replace
anyting major.

I would look at a wiring diagram for the unit and see what
it takes for the condenser fan to stop running. IDK how they
are wired, but my first thought would be that the thermal
protection for the compressor would stop just the compressor,
not the fan too. If that's true, then something else is
wrong, eg bad contactor, that is stopping both the compressor
and the fan......

If the condenser fan stops , the compressor will overheat and shut down too
.... try it again , and when the fan turns off check the compressor , if it's
still running replace the fan motor .

--
Snag

trader_4 wrote in
:

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread.

I spent about five hours yesterday taking apart and cleaning the a/c
condenser. It didn't help.

When I arrived on scene, the a/c was working fine. Cold air was
blowing out of the vents. The refrigerant drier cannister happens to
be located on the small line outside the evaporator. This line was
very slightly warm to the touch. The larger copper line going into
the evaporator was cold to the touch. The outside of the plenum was
also cold (not freezing).

After about 30 minutes, the a/c unit's fan turned off, the furnace
fan remained on, and the evaporator line outside the plenum, and the
plenum, got warmer.

Time to clean the condenser. I turned off the thermostat, pilled the
40 amp fuse at the a/c unit, and disassembled the side panels, the
fan, and any wiring as necessary. The compressor had an orange vinyl
insulated sort of pull down 'hat' over it. I took that off, too, to
get the compressor specs, if needed, and I put my hand on top of the
compressor. It was hot enough that I couldn't keep my hand on it for
more than a second or so, but not hot enough to cause immediate
burns.

There were lots of leaves in the drip pan, but not much came out of
the condenser. I first vacuumed both sides of the entire consenser,
and there was not much debris at all. I then wetted and sprayed foam
on the outside, and rinsed from both the outside and inside, until
all runoff water was clear. Actually, I was surprised at how little
dust/dirt there was. The only thing that was really dirty was the
temp sensing unit that sits on the small copper line, right where it
enters the compressor. I removed it and cleaned it off good.

I got it put back together, turned it on. The outside temp was now
100 degrees. The indoor temp was 77, and I called for 66 at the
thermostat. Cool air started coming out, measured at 64 degrees (I
guess the attic ductwork was really hot) and it ran fine for about 40
minutes. Then, warm air came out. The a/c fan stopped. I hand
checked hand temps at the plenum, and it was warming up again.

Crap.

I'm calling another company out for a another look before I replace
anyting major.

I would look at a wiring diagram for the unit and see what
it takes for the condenser fan to stop running. IDK how they
are wired, but my first thought would be that the thermal
protection for the compressor would stop just the compressor,
not the fan too. If that's true, then something else is
wrong, eg bad contactor, that is stopping both the compressor
and the fan......

I did find all the specs and wiring diagrams inside the unit when I took
it apart.

The schematic will help someone more knowledgeable than I.

When I'm inside the house and I notice the vent air no longer cool,
that's when I look outside and see that the a/c fan is not running. So,
I don't know if the compressor got hot and turned off itself and fan, or
the fan turned off, and the compressor then got hot and turned off.
Yesterday, there was one time when as soon as the vent air got warm, I
ran to the a/c unit, and the fan was still on, but then within a few
minutes, stopped.

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 1:17:24 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread.

I spent about five hours yesterday taking apart and cleaning the a/c
condenser. It didn't help.

When I arrived on scene, the a/c was working fine. Cold air was
blowing out of the vents. The refrigerant drier cannister happens
to be located on the small line outside the evaporator. This line
was very slightly warm to the touch. The larger copper line going
into the evaporator was cold to the touch. The outside of the
plenum was also cold (not freezing).

After about 30 minutes, the a/c unit's fan turned off, the furnace
fan remained on, and the evaporator line outside the plenum, and the
plenum, got warmer.

Time to clean the condenser. I turned off the thermostat, pilled
the 40 amp fuse at the a/c unit, and disassembled the side panels,
the fan, and any wiring as necessary. The compressor had an orange
vinyl insulated sort of pull down 'hat' over it. I took that off,
too, to get the compressor specs, if needed, and I put my hand on
top of the compressor. It was hot enough that I couldn't keep my
hand on it for more than a second or so, but not hot enough to cause
immediate burns.

There were lots of leaves in the drip pan, but not much came out of
the condenser. I first vacuumed both sides of the entire consenser,
and there was not much debris at all. I then wetted and sprayed
foam on the outside, and rinsed from both the outside and inside,
until all runoff water was clear. Actually, I was surprised at how
little dust/dirt there was. The only thing that was really dirty
was the temp sensing unit that sits on the small copper line, right
where it enters the compressor. I removed it and cleaned it off
good.

I got it put back together, turned it on. The outside temp was now
100 degrees. The indoor temp was 77, and I called for 66 at the
thermostat. Cool air started coming out, measured at 64 degrees (I
guess the attic ductwork was really hot) and it ran fine for about
40 minutes. Then, warm air came out. The a/c fan stopped. I hand
checked hand temps at the plenum, and it was warming up again.

Crap.

I'm calling another company out for a another look before I replace
anyting major.

I would look at a wiring diagram for the unit and see what
it takes for the condenser fan to stop running. IDK how they
are wired, but my first thought would be that the thermal
protection for the compressor would stop just the compressor,
not the fan too. If that's true, then something else is
wrong, eg bad contactor, that is stopping both the compressor
and the fan......

If the condenser fan stops , the compressor will overheat and shut down too
... try it again , and when the fan turns off check the compressor , if it's
still running replace the fan motor .

--
Snag

That's an excellent observation. He could check for voltage at
the fan when it quits.

"Terry Coombs" wrote in
:

trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread.

I spent about five hours yesterday taking apart and cleaning the a/c
condenser. It didn't help.

When I arrived on scene, the a/c was working fine. Cold air was
blowing out of the vents. The refrigerant drier cannister happens
to be located on the small line outside the evaporator. This line
was very slightly warm to the touch. The larger copper line going
into the evaporator was cold to the touch. The outside of the
plenum was also cold (not freezing).

After about 30 minutes, the a/c unit's fan turned off, the furnace
fan remained on, and the evaporator line outside the plenum, and the
plenum, got warmer.

Time to clean the condenser. I turned off the thermostat, pilled
the 40 amp fuse at the a/c unit, and disassembled the side panels,
the fan, and any wiring as necessary. The compressor had an orange
vinyl insulated sort of pull down 'hat' over it. I took that off,
too, to get the compressor specs, if needed, and I put my hand on
top of the compressor. It was hot enough that I couldn't keep my
hand on it for more than a second or so, but not hot enough to cause
immediate burns.

There were lots of leaves in the drip pan, but not much came out of
the condenser. I first vacuumed both sides of the entire consenser,
and there was not much debris at all. I then wetted and sprayed
foam on the outside, and rinsed from both the outside and inside,
until all runoff water was clear. Actually, I was surprised at how
little dust/dirt there was. The only thing that was really dirty
was the temp sensing unit that sits on the small copper line, right
where it enters the compressor. I removed it and cleaned it off
good.

I got it put back together, turned it on. The outside temp was now
100 degrees. The indoor temp was 77, and I called for 66 at the
thermostat. Cool air started coming out, measured at 64 degrees (I
guess the attic ductwork was really hot) and it ran fine for about
40 minutes. Then, warm air came out. The a/c fan stopped. I hand
checked hand temps at the plenum, and it was warming up again.

Crap.

I'm calling another company out for a another look before I replace
anyting major.

I would look at a wiring diagram for the unit and see what
it takes for the condenser fan to stop running. IDK how they
are wired, but my first thought would be that the thermal
protection for the compressor would stop just the compressor,
good point

not the fan too. If that's true, then something else is
wrong, eg bad contactor,

I've heard 'contactor' used, but not sure what that is. Is it some sort
of wiring block where many of the that is stopping both the compressor
and the fan......

If the condenser fan stops , the compressor will overheat and shut
down too ... try it again , and when the fan turns off check the
compressor , if it's still running replace the fan motor .


Yeah, that was my thought. But three weeks ago, I had the fan
motor/capacitor replaced because fan motor bearing was bad and the thing
was howling loudly.

On 6/9/15 3:38 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Manufacturers install a lower speed fan motor to keep the noise down
but use a fan blade with a higher pitch angle to get the same airflow
that would be obtained with a high speed fan motor and a blade with a
lower pitch angle. You can change the blade to match the motor and
the load on the motor will drop into an acceptable range. That's why
the current draw of fan motors should always be checked. If your
service tech installed a higher speed motor and used the fan blade
for the low speed motor, that will be the cause of the overload. No
competent service tech will install a mismatched motor and blade and
if he'd checked the current draw, he'd know something was wrong.8-)

[8~{} Uncle Blade Monster

In 1976, a church with high gas bills asked me to look at their
furnaces. There were six. I think they all blew into the same duct
system.

Each blower motor was 1/3 hp with an adjustable pulley. I think at
least one wasn't blowing at all.

It wasn't wired to make it easy to check current. How else could I set
the pulleys? I mounted an electrical box by each blower compartment with
a motor fuse and a neon light in parallel. Now each motor was fused, and
anyone walking by could spot a blown fuse by the neon light.

I bought an AC ammeter movement and mounted it in a portable box. I
could plug the box in, in place of a neon light. After the motor was
running, I could pull the fuse and read the current. That way, my meter
didn't have to handle the starting surge.

This allowed me to set each pulley for 1/3 hp. It had been necessary to
raise the thermostat 24 hours ahead of services, and people would still
be chilly. Without sufficient air flow, the heat was going to the
cathedral ceiling. With the pulleys adjusted, the furnace could warm
the church in an hour or so.

fan blade direction reversed?

"Boris" wrote in message
09.88...

J Burns wrote in :

big snip

I see where I went wrong. Boris saw that the condenser fan wasn't
blowing. That's how I, too, first see if my compressor is running.
Yes. I look out the window so I don't have to go all around the yard.
I can't hear if the compressor is still? going or not.

The tech got the compressor going with cold water. Because I wasn't
thinking, I imagined the fan started at the same time, so the thermal
switch in the compressor must have controlled the fan.
I was inside the house, but the tech did tell me 'it' all started up
with the cold water. I assume the fan did, too, otherwise he would
noted that. Wrong.

If the compressor overheated, it had power. That meant the fan had
power. If both were stopped, it seems the fan stopped, and that
overheated the compressor.

A month ago, the tech replaced the fan because he thought that was the
cause of the problem.
No, he replaced the fan motor because it was squealing loudly. He also
replaced the associated capacitor. Maybe the old motor was wrong.
Maybe the cross
reference was wrong. Maybe he made a mistake. If he put in the wrong
motor, that could explain everything.
Yes, that could explain why the fan motor would overheat, if it is
overheating, but I don't think it's the problem.

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!
I am going back up this coming Sunday, and I have a second company
coming up the following Monday to give me a second opinioin. I
explained what has been done, and to send out their best diagnostician.
I said I'm not convinced the condensor is dying, because when it cools,
it cools well.

When I arrived Sunday, I'll do what trouble shooting I can, such as
watch to see if the fan and compressor turn off at the same time (or
not). I'll hose it off to see if both restart at the same time. I may
disable one or the other, to see if they are wired together. I'll do a
visual on the contactor.

Here's something I recently remembered. Around mid-2012, my dad said he
had the 'capacitor' changed in his a/c because it wasn't working. Was
it not cooling, was it not starting at all? I don't know the details,
and I don't know which capacitor, start or fan or... A few weeks later,
he asked me to come up and change the thermostat, because he couldn't
cool the house down with such a complicated thermostat (he was 87 years
old). I put in a less complicated one. Tested it, and it worked fine.
A few months later, the house wouldn't cool. The fact that it's weeks
or months between my dad reporting problems is not because the problem
was so intermittent, it's because he only used the a/c when it got
really hot, say 90-100. I suspect this problem has been going on for at
least since mid-2012, but only recognized by me when I took over the
home and went through my first summer season in 2014.

On 6/9/2015 12:43 PM, Boris wrote:

Yes, yes. A chaise lounge, cigar, a few beers, and about 40 minutes is
all I need. A pretty assistant wouldn't hurt, either.


I'll be some where else, I'm allergic to tobacco.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 6/9/2015 12:34 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 11:24:35 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 6/9/2015 11:23 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:49:18 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Might not be the case in the south, but in the
north the coils dry out in a few minutes, so
there isn't much action after a few minutes of
drying. Local conditions, and YMMV and so on.


Here's what I have for spraying coil cleaner. I've had it for years and it works very well. 8-)

http://www.nucalgon.com/products/coi...ayers/coil-gun

[8~{} Uncle Coil Monster


That looks totally professional. I mix in a garden
sprinkler and pour on the solution. Less prof, but
seems to work okay.

-
The foam gun is not that expensive and has many uses. I've even used it to clean my vehicle. The next time you go by the HVAC supply house, check one of them out and you'll see how versatile it is. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Foam Monster


Ebay and Amazon run about $75. I can justify that if
I had several calls a year, but.....

Do have one for insecticide. I bought it for fun, and
also for scout night with the bonfire. Figure a trace
of soap with the garden hose will put out the bonfire,
faster. And more reliable.


-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 1:17:40 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 6/9/2015 12:34 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 11:24:35 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 6/9/2015 11:23 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:49:18 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Might not be the case in the south, but in the
north the coils dry out in a few minutes, so
there isn't much action after a few minutes of
drying. Local conditions, and YMMV and so on.


Here's what I have for spraying coil cleaner. I've had it for years and it works very well. 8-)

http://www.nucalgon.com/products/coi...ayers/coil-gun

[8~{} Uncle Coil Monster


That looks totally professional. I mix in a garden
sprinkler and pour on the solution. Less prof, but
seems to work okay.

-
The foam gun is not that expensive and has many uses. I've even used it to clean my vehicle. The next time you go by the HVAC supply house, check one of them out and you'll see how versatile it is. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Foam Monster


Ebay and Amazon run about $75. I can justify that if
I had several calls a year, but.....

Do have one for insecticide. I bought it for fun, and
also for scout night with the bonfire. Figure a trace
of soap with the garden hose will put out the bonfire,
faster. And more reliable.

-
Nu Calgon manufactures another item you may be interested in. It's less expensive than the big coil gun and I believe it could be refilled but it comes prefilled with enough cleaner to clean 3 to 5 home condensing units. I think it's economical enough for a homeowner to purchase. 8-)

http://www.mainsupplies.com/index.ph...roducts_id=493

http://preview.tinyurl.com/pxxdz7v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrfz-s6eFuY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbVDYMaPd_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlcTRE2NXwg

[8~{} Uncle Clean Monster

"joe" [email protected] wrote in :

fan blade direction reversed?

The fan is blowing air up and out of the unit.

J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor. So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house. Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped. I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g

I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.
Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

Boris wrote in
09.88:

snip

He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor. So,
he installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up
(coincidence?), and began to cool the house. Not sure I buy this kick
starter thing, but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but
within 15 minutes, the fan and compressor stopped. I called and he
came right back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was
the fan.

snip

This looks like the kick starter kit...it was a capacitor and a relay.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/omhmtnl

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-5, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor. So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house. Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped. I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g

I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.
Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

The slower motor is there for quieter operation and the slower the motor, the steeper the pitch of the fan blade. The tech should have changed the fan blade to one with a shallow pitch on the faster motor to keep the load on the motor in the proper range. It will work but the fan will just be noisier. Any competent AC tech should know that because it's easy to get the correct blade and motor combination. The standard high rpm motors are usually less expensive than the slower speed motors because more of the higher speed motors are produced. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle AC Monster

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor.

This story has been going on awhile now and this is the first
time I've heard that it takes lots of attempts to start. From
what we were told, it sounded like it started up OK, but after
running for a considerable period of time, it would then shut
off from the compressor overheating. That is different than a
hard to start issue. So, which is it?


So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house.

I thought it always started right up.


Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped.

Well, there you go.....

I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g


I don't remember the long story here anymore, but I think the fan
was replaced recently? Sounds like he's saying that they put in
a 1075 fan instead of 825. If so, that's not good. If it has the
same HP rating as the old fan, but it's trying to run faster, then
it will overheat and could shutoff.



I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.

You're right. He's only looking at part of the equation. He's right
that at the faster speed, it will move more air. But the power required
goes up at the cube of the speed. So that fan motor would need to be
~2x the hp of the original, or 1/2 hp.



Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan probably
was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also quits because
it's the wrong one.

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:08:03 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-5, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor. So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house. Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped. I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g

I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.
Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

The slower motor is there for quieter operation and the slower the motor, the steeper the pitch of the fan blade. The tech should have changed the fan blade to one with a shallow pitch on the faster motor to keep the load on the motor in the proper range. It will work but the fan will just be noisier. Any competent AC tech should know that because it's easy to get the correct blade and motor combination. The standard high rpm motors are usually less expensive than the slower speed motors because more of the higher speed motors are produced. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle AC Monster

Sounds reasonable, but from a practical standpoint the simpler
and cheaper thing would be to put in the right motor. A different
fan probably isn't going to be cheap.

I think you said something here much earlier about the new fan possibly
being the wrong one and that it's the new problem. Sounds like
you had that nailed. It is amazing that a AC tech wouldn't understand
that you can't just put a faster motor of the same HP in. Even if
they don't understand the physics, you would think they would have
learned from prior bad experiences.....

Me, I got my new PSC motor. Cap should be in the mailbox. Will let
you know the results......

trader_4 wrote in
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in
:


big snip

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan
probably was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also
quits because it's the wrong one.


That's what I did. It only took one beer, but both stopped at the same
time. When reported to tech, he said compressor and fan are wired
together so if fan stops, compressor stops. Not sure I believe that,
because the compressor has a thermal sensor protector.

Yes, replacement fan was the wrong fan. If this doesn't fix things, I'm
going to get a new a/c unit. I've pretty much had it with this thing.
Had to drive up there four times already and listen to techs tell me
differing stories. I only hope that if/when I get a new unit, they can
install it correctly.

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot of
juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its life.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 01:20:49 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

trader_4 wrote in
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in
:


big snip

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan
probably was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also
quits because it's the wrong one.


That's what I did. It only took one beer, but both stopped at the same
time. When reported to tech, he said compressor and fan are wired
together so if fan stops, compressor stops. Not sure I believe that,
because the compressor has a thermal sensor protector.

Yes, replacement fan was the wrong fan. If this doesn't fix things, I'm
going to get a new a/c unit. I've pretty much had it with this thing.
Had to drive up there four times already and listen to techs tell me
differing stories. I only hope that if/when I get a new unit, they can
install it correctly.

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot of
juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its life.


That might be the case. I do have a 43 year old AC unit with the
original compressor that had a kick start kit put on it in 1985 and
the thing is still running here in Phx AZ. I'm beginning to think
it's going to outlast me. It has gone thru three condenser fan motors
though.

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:57:12 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:08:03 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-5, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor. So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house. Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped. I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g

I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.
Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

The slower motor is there for quieter operation and the slower the motor, the steeper the pitch of the fan blade. The tech should have changed the fan blade to one with a shallow pitch on the faster motor to keep the load on the motor in the proper range. It will work but the fan will just be noisier. Any competent AC tech should know that because it's easy to get the correct blade and motor combination. The standard high rpm motors are usually less expensive than the slower speed motors because more of the higher speed motors are produced. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle AC Monster

Sounds reasonable, but from a practical standpoint the simpler
and cheaper thing would be to put in the right motor. A different
fan probably isn't going to be cheap.

I think you said something here much earlier about the new fan possibly
being the wrong one and that it's the new problem. Sounds like
you had that nailed. It is amazing that a AC tech wouldn't understand
that you can't just put a faster motor of the same HP in. Even if
they don't understand the physics, you would think they would have
learned from prior bad experiences.....

Me, I got my new PSC motor. Cap should be in the mailbox. Will let
you know the results......

A new fan blade is a lot cheaper than a motor. I've had to replace fan blades when a tree limb falls and the little branches poke through the fan grill. You don't try to repair a damaged blade because it must be balanced or the vibration will damage the motor bearings. The AC condensers that have the flat covered tops and the air discharge around the periphery are immune to that sort of damage, even little kids sticking things through the fan grill. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fan Monster

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 01:20:49 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote in
8

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot of
juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its life.

Have you checked the thermostat control? Maybe something is wrong with
it.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 9:22:12 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
trader_4 wrote in
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in
:


big snip

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan
probably was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also
quits because it's the wrong one.


That's what I did. It only took one beer, but both stopped at the same
time. When reported to tech, he said compressor and fan are wired
together so if fan stops, compressor stops. Not sure I believe that,
because the compressor has a thermal sensor protector.


Sorry, I forgot that you reported that. It's possible they are
wired together somehow, but I agree with you that I wouldn't believe
it without seeing it myself. You should have a schematic. I know
on mine that if the fan motor quits, the compressor keeps running.




Yes, replacement fan was the wrong fan. If this doesn't fix things, I'm
going to get a new a/c unit. I've pretty much had it with this thing.
Had to drive up there four times already and listen to techs tell me
differing stories. I only hope that if/when I get a new unit, they can
install it correctly.

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot of
juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its life.

I wouldn't worry about the hard start kit. They are put on AC units
all the time and I've never heard of them shortening the life. I
had one put on mine when it was 10 years old, because it was blowing
fuses. It went another 10 years and was still running fine with no
problems. I think the opposite is true. It's better to have the hard
start kit and get it going, than have it struggle.

On 6/19/2015 8:00 AM, CRNG wrote:
Have you checked the thermostat
control? Maybe something is wrong with
it.


With what the OP is describing, the
fan quits and the compressor over heats.
This suggests to me that the thermostat
is still calling for cooling.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 7:24:19 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 9:22:12 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
trader_4 wrote in
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in
:


big snip

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan
probably was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also
quits because it's the wrong one.


That's what I did. It only took one beer, but both stopped at the same
time. When reported to tech, he said compressor and fan are wired
together so if fan stops, compressor stops. Not sure I believe that,
because the compressor has a thermal sensor protector.


Sorry, I forgot that you reported that. It's possible they are
wired together somehow, but I agree with you that I wouldn't believe
it without seeing it myself. You should have a schematic. I know
on mine that if the fan motor quits, the compressor keeps running.




Yes, replacement fan was the wrong fan. If this doesn't fix things, I'm
going to get a new a/c unit. I've pretty much had it with this thing.
Had to drive up there four times already and listen to techs tell me
differing stories. I only hope that if/when I get a new unit, they can
install it correctly.

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot of
juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its life.

I wouldn't worry about the hard start kit. They are put on AC units
all the time and I've never heard of them shortening the life. I
had one put on mine when it was 10 years old, because it was blowing
fuses. It went another 10 years and was still running fine with no
problems. I think the opposite is true. It's better to have the hard
start kit and get it going, than have it struggle.

If a compressor is always being called on to restart before the system pressure equalizes, a hard start kit will help. I always put a time delay module in the control circuit for an AC unit with a mechanical thermostat or programmed the electronic thermostat for a time delay of at least 3 minutes so AC system pressure could equalize. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle AC Monster

Uncle Monster wrote in
:

On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 7:24:19 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 9:22:12 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
trader_4 wrote in
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in
:


big snip

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by
the unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor
over heats and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which
from everything else you've said so far, appears to be what you
had. First fan probably was bad and they replaced it with a
faster one that also quits because it's the wrong one.


That's what I did. It only took one beer, but both stopped at the
same time. When reported to tech, he said compressor and fan are
wired together so if fan stops, compressor stops. Not sure I
believe that, because the compressor has a thermal sensor
protector.


Sorry, I forgot that you reported that. It's possible they are
wired together somehow, but I agree with you that I wouldn't believe
it without seeing it myself. You should have a schematic. I know
on mine that if the fan motor quits, the compressor keeps running.




Yes, replacement fan was the wrong fan. If this doesn't fix
things, I'
m
going to get a new a/c unit. I've pretty much had it with this
thing.

Had to drive up there four times already and listen to techs tell
me differing stories. I only hope that if/when I get a new unit,
they can install it correctly.

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot
of juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its
life.

I wouldn't worry about the hard start kit. They are put on AC units
all the time and I've never heard of them shortening the life. I
had one put on mine when it was 10 years old, because it was blowing
fuses. It went another 10 years and was still running fine with no
problems. I think the opposite is true. It's better to have the
hard start kit and get it going, than have it struggle.

If a compressor is always being called on to restart before the system
pressure equalizes, a hard start kit will help. I always put a time
delay module in the control circuit for an AC unit with a mechanical
thermostat or programmed the electronic thermostat for a time delay of
at least 3 minutes so AC system pressure could equalize. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle AC Monster


The thermostat provides a 5 minute delay whenever you turn it on to a/c.
The panel blinks "Cooling wait".

One thing I did notice last time I was up there, was that the many times,
when the thermostat is recording the house temp. the same as the set
temp., the a/c goes off, but will sometimes still come back on. That is,
if set to 72 and it reaches 72, it will go off, but come back on in a
while, even though the temp has not risen.

Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 01:20:49 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

trader_4 wrote in
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in
:


big snip

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan
probably was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also
quits because it's the wrong one.


That's what I did. It only took one beer, but both stopped at the
same time. When reported to tech, he said compressor and fan are
wired together so if fan stops, compressor stops. Not sure I believe
that, because the compressor has a thermal sensor protector.

Yes, replacement fan was the wrong fan. If this doesn't fix things,
I'm going to get a new a/c unit. I've pretty much had it with this
thing. Had to drive up there four times already and listen to techs
tell me differing stories. I only hope that if/when I get a new unit,
they can install it correctly.

I don't buy the kickstart thing theory. If the new fan cures the
problem, I'm going to install the original capacitor. Using a lot of
juice to start the compressor, seems to me, could shorten its life.


That might be the case. I do have a 43 year old AC unit with the
original compressor that had a kick start kit put on it in 1985 and
the thing is still running here in Phx AZ. I'm beginning to think
it's going to outlast me. It has gone thru three condenser fan motors
though.

As my kids would say, "OMG".

On 06/20/2015 11:50 AM, Boris wrote:

[snip]

The thermostat provides a 5 minute delay whenever you turn it on to a/c.
The panel blinks "Cooling wait".

I used to have a mechanical thermostat, but had to replace it with an
electronic one a couple of years ago (necessary because I got a 2-stage
system). It will show "wait" and delay turning on the compressor when it
hasn't been off long enough. It assumes it does need to wait, when it
doesn't know. Even when electricity was off for about 90 hours because
of the tornado, it still came up with a "wait" (probably a good idea).

One thing I did notice last time I was up there, was that the many times,
when the thermostat is recording the house temp. the same as the set
temp., the a/c goes off, but will sometimes still come back on. That is,
if set to 72 and it reaches 72, it will go off, but come back on in a
while, even though the temp has not risen.


Temp might have gone up a little, but less that the display resolution.
Mine shows just whole degrees, but it could be sensitive to smaller changes.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I think I'll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don't believe in
Gosh too, you'll be darned to heck." - - anonymous

trader_4 wrote in news:d26439b2-b215-408d-bdcf-
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor.

This story has been going on awhile now and this is the first
time I've heard that it takes lots of attempts to start. From
what we were told, it sounded like it started up OK, but after
running for a considerable period of time, it would then shut
off from the compressor overheating. That is different than a
hard to start issue. So, which is it?


So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house.

I thought it always started right up.


Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped.

Well, there you go.....

I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g


I don't remember the long story here anymore, but I think the fan
was replaced recently? Sounds like he's saying that they put in
a 1075 fan instead of 825. If so, that's not good. If it has the
same HP rating as the old fan, but it's trying to run faster, then
it will overheat and could shutoff.



I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.

You're right. He's only looking at part of the equation. He's right
that at the faster speed, it will move more air. But the power required
goes up at the cube of the speed. So that fan motor would need to be
~2x the hp of the original, or 1/2 hp.



Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan probably
was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also quits because
it's the wrong one.


It was the fan.

A new fan arrived yesterday, and I drove up for the install. The tech
installed, checked all loads, pressures, etc. and started it up. The thing
worked great and kept running until the house was cool. It was in the 90s
outside, and the a/c was blowing 53 degree air, and it didn't cut out. I
left around 3:30 pm to come back to the Bay Area, and asked the current
vacation renters to let me know later in the evening how the a/c was
working. I got a text from them at 11:00 pm saying that they had just
gotten back from dinner and that the a/c was perfect. Wheh!

I suspect what happened was what someone (you?) suggested many posts ago.
At some point before I took over the house, a new, but incorrect fan was
installed, and the problems began. When I had another fan installed, the
tech just used the specs on the prior, but incorrect fan, and the problem
continued.

It took seven visists, from two different companies, to get it right, with
me, an inexperienced at a/c homeowner, playing go-between, with this ng's
help. Company A installed the wrong fan and came out twice afterwards and
never recognized what they had done, telling me the system needed
replacement...it was 'just getting old'. Compamy B recognized the problem,
which I had to relay back to Compamy A, who had to come out and verify
their mistake, and I still had to push them to put in the proper fan.

Contractors. Sheesh.

Thanks, everyone.

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 16:54:16 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

trader_4 wrote in news:d26439b2-b215-408d-bdcf-
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor.

This story has been going on awhile now and this is the first
time I've heard that it takes lots of attempts to start. From
what we were told, it sounded like it started up OK, but after
running for a considerable period of time, it would then shut
off from the compressor overheating. That is different than a
hard to start issue. So, which is it?


So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house.

I thought it always started right up.


Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped.

Well, there you go.....

I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g


I don't remember the long story here anymore, but I think the fan
was replaced recently? Sounds like he's saying that they put in
a 1075 fan instead of 825. If so, that's not good. If it has the
same HP rating as the old fan, but it's trying to run faster, then
it will overheat and could shutoff.



I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.

You're right. He's only looking at part of the equation. He's right
that at the faster speed, it will move more air. But the power required
goes up at the cube of the speed. So that fan motor would need to be
~2x the hp of the original, or 1/2 hp.



Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan probably
was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also quits because
it's the wrong one.


It was the fan.

A new fan arrived yesterday, and I drove up for the install. The tech
installed, checked all loads, pressures, etc. and started it up. The thing
worked great and kept running until the house was cool. It was in the 90s
outside, and the a/c was blowing 53 degree air, and it didn't cut out. I
left around 3:30 pm to come back to the Bay Area, and asked the current
vacation renters to let me know later in the evening how the a/c was
working. I got a text from them at 11:00 pm saying that they had just
gotten back from dinner and that the a/c was perfect. Wheh!

I suspect what happened was what someone (you?) suggested many posts ago.
At some point before I took over the house, a new, but incorrect fan was
installed, and the problems began. When I had another fan installed, the
tech just used the specs on the prior, but incorrect fan, and the problem
continued.

It took seven visists, from two different companies, to get it right, with
me, an inexperienced at a/c homeowner, playing go-between, with this ng's
help. Company A installed the wrong fan and came out twice afterwards and
never recognized what they had done, telling me the system needed
replacement...it was 'just getting old'. Compamy B recognized the problem,
which I had to relay back to Compamy A, who had to come out and verify
their mistake, and I still had to push them to put in the proper fan.

Contractors. Sheesh.

Thanks, everyone.

Congratulations.

I know you had to travel and deal with different tech's. Working DIY
long distance and be a pain.

Glad things worked out for you.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:55:41 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
trader_4 wrote in news:d26439b2-b215-408d-bdcf-
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped.
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started.
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor.

This story has been going on awhile now and this is the first
time I've heard that it takes lots of attempts to start. From
what we were told, it sounded like it started up OK, but after
running for a considerable period of time, it would then shut
off from the compressor overheating. That is different than a
hard to start issue. So, which is it?


So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house.

I thought it always started right up.


Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped.

Well, there you go.....

I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g


I don't remember the long story here anymore, but I think the fan
was replaced recently? Sounds like he's saying that they put in
a 1075 fan instead of 825. If so, that's not good. If it has the
same HP rating as the old fan, but it's trying to run faster, then
it will overheat and could shutoff.



I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.

You're right. He's only looking at part of the equation. He's right
that at the faster speed, it will move more air. But the power required
goes up at the cube of the speed. So that fan motor would need to be
~2x the hp of the original, or 1/2 hp.



Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan probably
was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also quits because
it's the wrong one.


It was the fan.

A new fan arrived yesterday, and I drove up for the install. The tech
installed, checked all loads, pressures, etc. and started it up. The thing
worked great and kept running until the house was cool. It was in the 90s
outside, and the a/c was blowing 53 degree air, and it didn't cut out. I
left around 3:30 pm to come back to the Bay Area, and asked the current
vacation renters to let me know later in the evening how the a/c was
working. I got a text from them at 11:00 pm saying that they had just
gotten back from dinner and that the a/c was perfect. Wheh!

I suspect what happened was what someone (you?) suggested many posts ago.
At some point before I took over the house, a new, but incorrect fan was
installed, and the problems began. When I had another fan installed, the
tech just used the specs on the prior, but incorrect fan, and the problem
continued.

It took seven visists, from two different companies, to get it right, with
me, an inexperienced at a/c homeowner, playing go-between, with this ng's
help. Company A installed the wrong fan and came out twice afterwards and
never recognized what they had done, telling me the system needed
replacement...it was 'just getting old'. Compamy B recognized the problem,
which I had to relay back to Compamy A, who had to come out and verify
their mistake, and I still had to push them to put in the proper fan.

Contractors. Sheesh.

Thanks, everyone.

Good to hear it's fixed! I think it was actually Uncle Monster
who suggested it could be an incorrect fan first. So, I guess what
you're saying is that it never worked right from the time the fan was
changed a long time ago. Someone not catching it then lead to
what happened now. I can see a tech showing up, diagnosing a
bad fan motor, then just looking at the one that's there and
ordering a generic replacement that has the same specs. I'm
not sure how many would pull up the parts list for the unit
and see what motor the manufacturer listed, etc.

I got mine going here too. $85 for the new motor. I replaced the
expensive and fancy ECM motor with a basic PSC, like what you have.
And I did what the tech did, I went by the specs on the old motor.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:55:41 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
trader_4 wrote in news:d26439b2-b215-408d-bdcf-
:

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 3:30:08 PM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
J Burns wrote in :

Googling, I quickly came up with American Standard condenser motors
that run at 825, 1075, and 1625 rpm. I believe the load a fan puts on
a motor varies as the cube of the speed. If the fan was designed for
a 1/4 hp 825 rpm motor and it has a 1/4 hp 1075 rpm motor, the load
will be more than 1/2 horsepower. Overheating!

I was up there Sunday and had another company come out for a second
opinion. The tech checked all but the fan (more later), gave it a clean
bill of health, but was there when the compressor (and fan) stopped..
He suspected that the compressor was heating up because it was old and
taking lots of attempts from the starter capacitor to get it started..
All the failed attempts, he said, would overheat the compressor.

This story has been going on awhile now and this is the first
time I've heard that it takes lots of attempts to start. From
what we were told, it sounded like it started up OK, but after
running for a considerable period of time, it would then shut
off from the compressor overheating. That is different than a
hard to start issue. So, which is it?


So, he
installed a 'kick starter' kit, and it started right up (coincidence?),
and began to cool the house.

I thought it always started right up.


Not sure I buy this kick starter thing,
but I kept the old starter/relay in case. He left, but within 15
minutes, the fan and compressor stopped.

Well, there you go.....

I called and he came right
back. This time, he said the one thing he didn't check was the fan. He
disconnected the compressor power lead, and checked the fan. It should
have been drawing 1.7 amps, but it was drawing 2.3 amps. Also, the fan
was rated to run at 1075 rpm, not 825 rpm. He told me to get the
original company out to put in the right fan...my thoughts, exactly.
And he said I did need the kick starter thing anyway. g


I don't remember the long story here anymore, but I think the fan
was replaced recently? Sounds like he's saying that they put in
a 1075 fan instead of 825. If so, that's not good. If it has the
same HP rating as the old fan, but it's trying to run faster, then
it will overheat and could shutoff.



I called the original company Monday morning, and they sent their 'best'
diagnostic tech out that day. I told him his company installed the
wrong fan, and he tried to say yeah, but you're getting more cooling
with a faster motor, to which I said that "it was a tug of war between
more cooling vs. more amps/heat, to which the amps/heat always wins.
Besides, here is the spec sheet, and it clearly states 1/4 hp, 825 rpm.

You're right. He's only looking at part of the equation. He's right
that at the faster speed, it will move more air. But the power required
goes up at the cube of the speed. So that fan motor would need to be
~2x the hp of the original, or 1/2 hp.



Let's get the right fan motor in there, and see what happens." He also
checked everything else out, and said it all looked fine, including
refrigerant pressures. He disconnected the compressor power, and
checked the the amp draw of the fan...it was 3.0. He ordered an OEM
motor, and I'm going back up this Tuesday to have them install it.

After all of this, I looked back at the work orders for both times the
original comapany came out to diagnose the problem. On the first call
back, the fan check boxes said rated 1.9, actual 2.4, with the notation
"ok". On the second call back, same tech, the fan was checked, and the
this time the rated box said 1.7, but there was no actual taken. Sloppy
all around.

I'm getting really cynical now that a good a/c tech is hard to find.

I told you a week ago to take a 6 pack out with a chair, sit by the
unit, and see if the fan quits first, then the compressor over heats
and quits. That would indicate a fan problem, which from everything
else you've said so far, appears to be what you had. First fan probably
was bad and they replaced it with a faster one that also quits because
it's the wrong one.


It was the fan.

A new fan arrived yesterday, and I drove up for the install. The tech
installed, checked all loads, pressures, etc. and started it up. The thing
worked great and kept running until the house was cool. It was in the 90s
outside, and the a/c was blowing 53 degree air, and it didn't cut out. I
left around 3:30 pm to come back to the Bay Area, and asked the current
vacation renters to let me know later in the evening how the a/c was
working. I got a text from them at 11:00 pm saying that they had just
gotten back from dinner and that the a/c was perfect. Wheh!

I suspect what happened was what someone (you?) suggested many posts ago.
At some point before I took over the house, a new, but incorrect fan was
installed, and the problems began. When I had another fan installed, the
tech just used the specs on the prior, but incorrect fan, and the problem
continued.

It took seven visists, from two different companies, to get it right, with
me, an inexperienced at a/c homeowner, playing go-between, with this ng's
help. Company A installed the wrong fan and came out twice afterwards and
never recognized what they had done, telling me the system needed
replacement...it was 'just getting old'. Compamy B recognized the problem,
which I had to relay back to Compamy A, who had to come out and verify
their mistake, and I still had to push them to put in the proper fan.

Contractors. Sheesh.

Thanks, everyone.

Good to hear it's fixed! I think it was actually Uncle Monster
who suggested it could be an incorrect fan first. So, I guess what
you're saying is that it never worked right from the time the fan was
changed a long time ago. Someone not catching it then lead to
what happened now. I can see a tech showing up, diagnosing a
bad fan motor, then just looking at the one that's there and
ordering a generic replacement that has the same specs. I'm
not sure how many would pull up the parts list for the unit
and see what motor the manufacturer listed, etc.

I got mine going here too. $85 for the new motor. I replaced the
expensive and fancy ECM motor with a basic PSC, like what you have.
And I did what the tech did, I went by the specs on the old motor.

I posted a link for a chart that any tech should have to match motor and blade but the first thing a tech should have done was check the current draw of the fan motor. I once came across an application where more airflow was desired through a condensing unit so I installed a 33 degree pitch blade which required a 3/4 hp motor for the 1140 rpm speed. The same blade at 850 rpm needs only a 1/3 hp motor. That 1140 rpm fan was friggin loud but it was on a roof. I fully expected to later get on the roof and see birds stuck to the condenser by the high speed airflow. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Bird Monster

trader_4 wrote in
:


big snip

Good to hear it's fixed! I think it was actually Uncle Monster
who suggested it could be an incorrect fan first. So, I guess what
you're saying is that it never worked right from the time the fan was
changed a long time ago. Someone not catching it then lead to
what happened now. I can see a tech showing up, diagnosing a
bad fan motor, then just looking at the one that's there and
ordering a generic replacement that has the same specs. I'm
not sure how many would pull up the parts list for the unit
and see what motor the manufacturer listed, etc.

I got mine going here too. $85 for the new motor. I replaced the
expensive and fancy ECM motor with a basic PSC, like what you have.
And I did what the tech did, I went by the specs on the old motor.

What are ECM and PSC? I've looked them up, but haven't seen the acronyms
described.

On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 11:15:27 AM UTC-4, Boris wrote:
trader_4 wrote in
:


big snip

Good to hear it's fixed! I think it was actually Uncle Monster
who suggested it could be an incorrect fan first. So, I guess what
you're saying is that it never worked right from the time the fan was
changed a long time ago. Someone not catching it then lead to
what happened now. I can see a tech showing up, diagnosing a
bad fan motor, then just looking at the one that's there and
ordering a generic replacement that has the same specs. I'm
not sure how many would pull up the parts list for the unit
and see what motor the manufacturer listed, etc.

I got mine going here too. $85 for the new motor. I replaced the
expensive and fancy ECM motor with a basic PSC, like what you have.
And I did what the tech did, I went by the specs on the old motor.

What are ECM and PSC? I've looked them up, but haven't seen the acronyms
described.

Electrically commutated motor - Essentially a DC motor driven by
electronics. It uses less electricity than a regular motor. But
it costs more and it has electronics that are susceptible to failing,
while a regular motor doesn't. In the case of my motor, it would have
been ~$350 for a replacement ECM. Actually I saw just one place that had
it for $230, but I'm not sure that price was real, I didn't try to order
it. PSC motor was $85. It would take a very long time to make up the
difference in elec savings, and given that the current one failed at under
4 years, you'd probably never recover it.

PSC - Permanent Split Capacitor, which is what you have.

As much I was able to fined out ECM is Brushless DC motor

"Boris" wrote in message
09.88...

trader_4 wrote in
:


big snip

Good to hear it's fixed! I think it was actually Uncle Monster
who suggested it could be an incorrect fan first. So, I guess what
you're saying is that it never worked right from the time the fan was
changed a long time ago. Someone not catching it then lead to
what happened now. I can see a tech showing up, diagnosing a
bad fan motor, then just looking at the one that's there and
ordering a generic replacement that has the same specs. I'm
not sure how many would pull up the parts list for the unit
and see what motor the manufacturer listed, etc.

I got mine going here too. $85 for the new motor. I replaced the
expensive and fancy ECM motor with a basic PSC, like what you have.
And I did what the tech did, I went by the specs on the old motor.

What are ECM and PSC? I've looked them up, but haven't seen the acronyms
described.