I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.


Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11¢/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.


Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11¢/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.


Don't you need coal to make batteries? Coal burned to make
electricity? Think of the energy used to boil an egg after the egg is
produced using energy.

It takes a lot of energy to boil an egg... and energy to feed the hen.

On 12/10/2014 3:15 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

When the Prius first came out, I googled up cost of battery replacement
and only found one reference saying $7,000 Australian. I think battery
warranty may be 100,000 mi or 10 years now. I'm driving an 11 year old
Subaru in perfect condition but repair like that would mean forced trade in.

On 12/10/2014 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.


Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11¢/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.


I'm not certain about our 11 cents. I got it from googling the company.
Libs are in charge here and we're all paying an extra $5 for a company
developing natural gas fuel cells which are less efficient than
generators and we may be paying for offshore windmills which are now
defunct.

When GM abandoned their plant here, the Dems financed Fisker to build
their $90,000 Karma here and they took the money and left.

Government's got no business in investing taxpayer money in businesses.

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:49:37 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.


Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11¢/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil..

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.


I'm not certain about our 11 cents. I got it from googling the company.
Libs are in charge here and we're all paying an extra $5 for a company
developing natural gas fuel cells which are less efficient than
generators and we may be paying for offshore windmills which are now
defunct.

When GM abandoned their plant here, the Dems financed Fisker to build
their $90,000 Karma here and they took the money and left.

Government's got no business in investing taxpayer money in businesses.

11 cents sounds possible. Here, NJ, few months ago when I last checked
it was about 12.5. It's come down quite a bit. A few years ago, it was
~17c. That's the number I was using, hadn't checked for quite a while.
I was pleasantly surprised that it's come down.

On 12/10/2014 3:56 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:49:37 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.


Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11¢/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.


I'm not certain about our 11 cents. I got it from googling the company.
Libs are in charge here and we're all paying an extra $5 for a company
developing natural gas fuel cells which are less efficient than
generators and we may be paying for offshore windmills which are now
defunct.

When GM abandoned their plant here, the Dems financed Fisker to build
their $90,000 Karma here and they took the money and left.

Government's got no business in investing taxpayer money in businesses.

11 cents sounds possible. Here, NJ, few months ago when I last checked
it was about 12.5. It's come down quite a bit. A few years ago, it was
~17c. That's the number I was using, hadn't checked for quite a while.
I was pleasantly surprised that it's come down.


I'm not certain but think bulk of NJ electricity is from nuclear.
Since coal is being chased out I think most of our power comes from
adjacent states. Delmarva power includes parts of Maryland and Virginia.

Found this state by state comparison googling around:

http://www.eia.gov/state/rankings/?sid=NJ#series/31

On 12/10/2014 3:37 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.


Don't you need coal to make batteries? Coal burned to make
electricity? Think of the energy used to boil an egg after the egg is
produced using energy.

It takes a lot of energy to boil an egg... and energy to feed the hen.



Not only that, but mining the battery chemicals is polluting.

Oren writes:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.


Don't you need coal to make batteries? Coal burned to make
electricity? Think of the energy used to boil an egg after the egg is
produced using energy.


The acronym you're looking for is EROEI.

Energy returned on energy invested. The higher the value, the
more efficient the energy source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_...sted_-_USA.svg


It takes a lot of energy to boil an egg... and energy to feed the hen.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...e-energy-trap/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...-scale-energy/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...stic-shoe-fit/

trader_4 writes:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for=20
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11=A2/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor=20
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.

As usual, your conservative filter has interjected nonsense. The CPUC
has instituted tiered rates to encourage conservation and reduce the need
to build new power plants. The basic rate is about USD0.15/kwh for the
initial basic allocation and goes up in two tiers based on usage. The highest
rate is USD0.35/kwh for the top tier (but that only accounts for about 10%
or less of the average customer usage, so they're paying much less per kwh
each month).

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:21:41 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 3:37 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.


Don't you need coal to make batteries? Coal burned to make
electricity? Think of the energy used to boil an egg after the egg is
produced using energy.

It takes a lot of energy to boil an egg... and energy to feed the hen.



Not only that, but mining the battery chemicals is polluting.

.... as is disposal

Melt the lead and make some bullets...

On 12/10/2014 4:27 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
As usual, your conservative filter has interjected nonsense. The CPUC
has instituted tiered rates to encourage conservation and reduce the need
to build new power plants. The basic rate is about USD0.15/kwh for the
initial basic allocation and goes up in two tiers based on usage. The highest
rate is USD0.35/kwh for the top tier (but that only accounts for about 10%
or less of the average customer usage, so they're paying much less per kwh
each month).


Using that same logic, Sharpie Pens should be
0.99 each and $14.99 a dozen, to discourage
usage and need for more factories.

Customers using a store card at the gas station
should pay more for gas, because they use more.

Donuts should be .89 each, and should be $13.99
a dozen to discourage over consumption.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Per SMS:
Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers

I just took a quick look, but did not see an amortization factor for the
cost of replacing the vehicle's battery.

Seems like that would add significantly to the cost per mile.

e.g. $5,000 replacement cost, 1,000 charges in life of battery, 200
miles per charge.... $5.00/200 = 2.5 cents per mile... and I would
think that's on the low side.

Or didn't I look closely enough?
--
Pete Cresswell

On 12/10/2014 4:29 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:21:41 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 3:37 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.


Don't you need coal to make batteries? Coal burned to make
electricity? Think of the energy used to boil an egg after the egg is
produced using energy.

It takes a lot of energy to boil an egg... and energy to feed the hen.



Not only that, but mining the battery chemicals is polluting.

... as is disposal

Melt the lead and make some bullets...


Most lead goes into car batteries and most is recycled. I do make
bullets. I just looked at an ingredients list I have of what is in
unrefined lead. It would curl and environmentalist's hair seeing all
the stuff in there that is worse than lead, e.g. cadmium and thallium.

I think the concern at the time was pollution in Canada in mining the
extra nickle for NiMH batteries in the Prius. I see they offer both
those and Lithium batteries in new Prius's.

On 12/10/2014 4:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Most lead goes into car batteries and most is recycled. I do make
bullets. I just looked at an ingredients list I have of what is in
unrefined lead. It would curl and environmentalist's hair seeing all
the stuff in there that is worse than lead, e.g. cadmium and thallium.

I think the concern at the time was pollution in Canada in mining the
extra nickle for NiMH batteries in the Prius. I see they offer both
those and Lithium batteries in new Prius's.


Using Scott Lundal's liberal logic, users of
electric cars need to be charged much more
for electric, to reduce consumption.

Hope someone calculates that in.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 12/10/2014 4:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Using Scott Lundal's liberal logic, users of
electric cars need to be charged much more
for electric, to reduce consumption.

Hope someone calculates that in.


There is a growing movement to factor in a cost of how many miles they drive
so a road tax can be charged. This is because roads are paid for by the tax
on fuel. As far as I know there is no seperate charge (tax) on the power
used for the electric cars.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

On 12/10/2014 3:35 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per SMS:
Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers

I just took a quick look, but did not see an amortization factor for the
cost of replacing the vehicle's battery.

Seems like that would add significantly to the cost per mile.

e.g. $5,000 replacement cost, 1,000 charges in life of battery, 200
miles per charge.... $5.00/200 = 2.5 cents per mile... and I would
think that's on the low side.

Or didn't I look closely enough?


The Prius Hybrid (not plug-in) has a 8 yr or 100,000 mile warranty. We
bought ours almost 10 years ago (2005?) with no problems. My niece has
it now.

I heard (somewhere) the batteries in the Prius's are lasting longer than
even the mfg expected. Also, the battery prices have been coming down.
That's not to say it isn't expensive but, it's not as bad as many had
predicted. You can get a refurbished Prius hybrid battery for around
$1600. New probably about $1000 more if you shop around. One thing I
know is...don't buy it at the dealer.

In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 12/10/2014 4:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Most lead goes into car batteries and most is recycled. I do make
bullets. I just looked at an ingredients list I have of what is in
unrefined lead. It would curl and environmentalist's hair seeing all
the stuff in there that is worse than lead, e.g. cadmium and thallium.

I think the concern at the time was pollution in Canada in mining the
extra nickle for NiMH batteries in the Prius. I see they offer both
those and Lithium batteries in new Prius's.


Using Scott Lundal's liberal logic, users of
electric cars need to be charged much more
for electric, to reduce consumption.

Hope someone calculates that in.

and those that use electricity from nukes should pay into a trust fund
so that the waste can be safely guarded for the 1000s of years it will
take to half-life down to lead

On 12/10/2014 4:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Donuts should be .89 each, and should be $13.99
a dozen to discourage over consumption.

My neighbor, an ER doc, tells me that approximately
60% of hospital patients are being treated for
health problems that are completely preventable.

Basically, we as a nation eat too damn much
and as a result are obese.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:27:16 -0800, SMS
wrote:

I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).


Good job. Looks to me that for a lot of people gas will cost about
twice as much per mile as electric. I say that based on people doing
the recharge at night when rates are lower. If I had an electric or
hybrid I'd charge it at night when my electric is about 9 cents a kWh.
That's going to get me a cost per mile on electric of about 3 cents a
mile. At any realistic gasoline price I'd be paying at least twice as
much per mile.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


Where did you dream up a 3 year battery life?

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:27:16 -0800, SMS
wrote:

I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32 per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).


Good job. Looks to me that for a lot of people gas will cost about
twice as much per mile as electric. I say that based on people doing
the recharge at night when rates are lower. If I had an electric or
hybrid I'd charge it at night when my electric is about 9 cents a kWh.
That's going to get me a cost per mile on electric of about 3 cents a
mile. At any realistic gasoline price I'd be paying at least twice as
much per mile.

when everybody starts using a lot of electricity at night, the nighttime
rate will go up.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:27:16 -0800, SMS
wrote in

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

We pay $0.112/kwh (flat rate) in N.W. Alabama where the electricty is
generated by T.V.A., the largest electric power provider in the U.S.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 12/10/2014 9:17 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


Where did you dream up a 3 year battery life?


Sorry; two years. I figure car batteries
last me about four, and these are unproven
technology.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:27:25 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for=20
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11=A2/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor=20
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.

As usual, your conservative filter has interjected nonsense. The CPUC
has instituted tiered rates to encourage conservation and reduce the need
to build new power plants.

As usual, you can't do basic math. All you've told us is that the
rates are being set artificially high by govt. Now think about it.
There is a huge, about 2X difference in revenue coming in and it's got
to be going somewhere. And if they are using it to chase economically
unviable energy sources, which even you apparently acknowledge, that is
indeed chasing moon beams and saving the whales. Capiche?


The basic rate is about USD0.15/kwh for the
initial basic allocation and goes up in two tiers based on usage. The highest
rate is USD0.35/kwh for the top tier (but that only accounts for about 10%
or less of the average customer usage, so they're paying much less per kwh
each month).

So, again, the libs are artificially jacking up rates and screwing the
consumer, big time. And where is all that money going? How much punishment to
the citizens is enough? Have you libs no compassion for the poor? I guess
you like to screw them with one big hand, keep them down and out, then pretend
to help them with the other hand, by making them dependent on govt and you
libs for assistance.

This stupidity is like the US screwing our economy, our citizens, our jobs,
by placing huge costs on the economy over CO2, while India and China do as they
please. It's like ****ing in the wind. In this case, you libs must
feel wonderful, pretending to save
the environment, while in almost every other state, we're enjoying electric
at half the rates or less, and what you're doing makes no difference in the
grand scheme.

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:51:03 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 12/10/2014 4:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Most lead goes into car batteries and most is recycled. I do make
bullets. I just looked at an ingredients list I have of what is in
unrefined lead. It would curl and environmentalist's hair seeing all
the stuff in there that is worse than lead, e.g. cadmium and thallium.

I think the concern at the time was pollution in Canada in mining the
extra nickle for NiMH batteries in the Prius. I see they offer both
those and Lithium batteries in new Prius's.


Using Scott Lundal's liberal logic, users of
electric cars need to be charged much more
for electric, to reduce consumption.

Hope someone calculates that in.

and those that use electricity from nukes should pay into a trust fund
so that the waste can be safely guarded for the 1000s of years it will
take to half-life down to lead

Two points. One is that a tax on nukes to pay for long term storage of
waste is very different than govt artificially screwing with and setting
market prices for energy. The second is, we had exactly that. A tax on
nukes to pay for the long term storage. It went on for years, until a court
ruled a couple years ago that it was illegal, since the tax was to fund the
nuclear waste storage. You libs killed that project in Nevada after billions
had already been spent on it and it was half completed. So, now nuclear
waste is piling up at storage pools at facilities all over the country,
instead of being at a highly secure, safe area. The tax is no longer
being collected. Feel better?

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:19:07 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 3:56 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:49:37 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:
I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11¢/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32¢ per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsMLOa9VT-h5TUfYWmZh9AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.


Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about 11¢/KWH.
At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid but if you factor
in extra cost of the hybrid over conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because they
are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his electric bill.


I'm not certain about our 11 cents. I got it from googling the company.
Libs are in charge here and we're all paying an extra $5 for a company
developing natural gas fuel cells which are less efficient than
generators and we may be paying for offshore windmills which are now
defunct.

When GM abandoned their plant here, the Dems financed Fisker to build
their $90,000 Karma here and they took the money and left.

Government's got no business in investing taxpayer money in businesses..

11 cents sounds possible. Here, NJ, few months ago when I last checked
it was about 12.5. It's come down quite a bit. A few years ago, it was
~17c. That's the number I was using, hadn't checked for quite a while.
I was pleasantly surprised that it's come down.


I'm not certain but think bulk of NJ electricity is from nuclear.

Only about 20% is from nuclear. Even less in just a couple years.
The environmentalists succeeded in getting one to shut down.


Since coal is being chased out I think most of our power comes from
adjacent states. Delmarva power includes parts of Maryland and Virginia.


Our power does too, mostly from coal.



Found this state by state comparison googling around:

http://www.eia.gov/state/rankings/?sid=NJ#series/31

That's interesting, because as I said, just a few years ago, I was
paying ~17c. That chart says 16c. I was surprised that the last
couple times I calculated, it was down to 12.5c. Part of what may be
going on here is that NJ has several power companies. I may be lucky
and have one that is lower than others.

On 12/10/2014 03:15 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.

I heard just a couple of days ago that many first-generation Toyota
Priuses are still running on their original (NiMH) batteries. How many
years is that? Seventeen, I think. And even if they don't last *that*
long, the batteries are guaranteed for eight years or 100,000 miles.

Perce

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 10:00:51 AM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 12/10/2014 03:15 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.


Be sure to figure in the replacement
batteries at about 3 years. That
expense ought to get recognized.

I heard just a couple of days ago that many first-generation Toyota
Priuses are still running on their original (NiMH) batteries. How many
years is that? Seventeen, I think. And even if they don't last *that*
long, the batteries are guaranteed for eight years or 100,000 miles.

Perce

8 yrs, 100K isn't very reassuring. That's cool for spark plugs that cost
$50, not for a battery that can cost two orders of magnitude more. And
you would think used car buyers are going to factor an expensive battery
replacement into the price.

In some cases, the car doesn't even have to be old. Tesla cars, if the
battery ever goes to zero, it's bricked and you need a new one. New ones
cost ~$30K.

Per Stormin Mormon:
Sorry; two years. I figure car batteries
last me about four, and these are unproven
technology.

My experience fooling around with an eBike is that the life of a lithium
battery is expressed in number of charges.... sort of.

"Sort of" because I am still not clear whether 10 total
discharges/charges has the same effect on battery life as 20 half
discharges/charges....

But the idea is still that shelf/calendar life is pretty much
irrelevant: instead it's the amount of energy you run through the
things.
--
Pete Cresswell

Here in Manitoba we have a publicly owned power utility (Manitoba Hydro) that provides both electricity and natural gas to Manitobans. I pay 6.83 cents per KWH, so you'd think electric vehicles would be popular here, but they're not.

Electric vehicles are only feasible to use in the summer here because of all of the need for heat in the vehicle during the winter. Gasoline powered cars have interior heaters that use the heat from the engine to warm the inside of the car to keep the front windshield free of fog. An electric car doesn't have excess heat that could be used to warm up the inside of the car to keep the front and rear windshields free of fog. That would require electric heaters which would severely reducing the range of the car.

The bottom line is that electric cars would work well in cities with warm climates year round. As soon as you start expecting electric cars to work well in cold climates, the range of the car drops substantially.

In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:51:03 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 12/10/2014 4:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Most lead goes into car batteries and most is recycled. I do make
bullets. I just looked at an ingredients list I have of what is in
unrefined lead. It would curl and environmentalist's hair seeing all
the stuff in there that is worse than lead, e.g. cadmium and thallium.

I think the concern at the time was pollution in Canada in mining the
extra nickle for NiMH batteries in the Prius. I see they offer both
those and Lithium batteries in new Prius's.


Using Scott Lundal's liberal logic, users of
electric cars need to be charged much more
for electric, to reduce consumption.

Hope someone calculates that in.

and those that use electricity from nukes should pay into a trust fund
so that the waste can be safely guarded for the 1000s of years it will
take to half-life down to lead

Two points. One is that a tax on nukes to pay for long term storage of
waste is very different than govt artificially screwing with and setting
market prices for energy. The second is, we had exactly that. A tax on
nukes to pay for the long term storage. It went on for years, until a court
ruled a couple years ago that it was illegal, since the tax was to fund the
nuclear waste storage. You libs killed that project in Nevada after billions
had already been spent on it and it was half completed. So, now nuclear
waste is piling up at storage pools at facilities all over the country,
instead of being at a highly secure, safe area. The tax is no longer
being collected. Feel better?

there is no such thing as a Highly Secure Area for nuke waste. the waste
will have to be stored for tens of thousands of years and we can't even
read with certainty writings that are 5 thousand years old. "Oh look
daddy, that yellow sign is inviting us in to play with those old rocks"

but I'll play the game: users of electric cars should be charged less
because they make more oil available at lower costs for those that
insist on petro cars

In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:27:25 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for=20
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about
11=A2/KWH. At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid
but if you factor=20 in extra cost of the hybrid over
conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because
they are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his
electric bill.

As usual, your conservative filter has interjected nonsense. The
CPUC has instituted tiered rates to encourage conservation and
reduce the need to build new power plants.

As usual, you can't do basic math. All you've told us is that the
rates are being set artificially high by govt. Now think about it.
There is a huge, about 2X difference in revenue coming in and it's
got to be going somewhere. And if they are using it to chase
economically unviable energy sources, which even you apparently
acknowledge, that is indeed chasing moon beams and saving the whales.
Capiche?

the CPUC doesn't set rates, the power companies do. the CPUC has been
successful in lowering energy consumption to the point that with a
population larger than Texas it uses less electricity and no one is
being sent to the poor house





The basic rate is about USD0.15/kwh for the
initial basic allocation and goes up in two tiers based on usage.
The highest rate is USD0.35/kwh for the top tier (but that only
accounts for about 10% or less of the average customer usage, so
they're paying much less per kwh each month).

So, again, the libs are artificially jacking up rates and screwing
the consumer, big time. And where is all that money going? How much
punishment to the citizens is enough? Have you libs no compassion
for the poor? I guess you like to screw them with one big hand, keep
them down and out, then pretend to help them with the other hand, by
making them dependent on govt and you libs for assistance.

no, the libs have reduced energy consumption and therefore improved the
financial ability of the "poor"



This stupidity is like the US screwing our economy, our citizens, our
jobs, by placing huge costs on the economy over CO2, while India and
China do as they please. It's like ****ing in the wind. In this
case, you libs must feel wonderful, pretending to save the
environment, while in almost every other state, we're enjoying
electric at half the rates or less, and what you're doing makes no
difference in the grand scheme.

rates might be lower, but bills aren't. you poor conservatives who feel
you have to have 150 incandescent bulbs can have them and one day your
CO2 rich power plant will run out of coal

In article ,
"Reggie" wrote:

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:27:16 -0800, SMS
wrote:

I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32 per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-
W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).


Good job. Looks to me that for a lot of people gas will cost about
twice as much per mile as electric. I say that based on people doing
the recharge at night when rates are lower. If I had an electric or
hybrid I'd charge it at night when my electric is about 9 cents a kWh.
That's going to get me a cost per mile on electric of about 3 cents a
mile. At any realistic gasoline price I'd be paying at least twice as
much per mile.

when everybody starts using a lot of electricity at night, the nighttime
rate will go up.

then people will start using more daytime electricity, like PVs

"nestork" wrote in message
...


Electric vehicles are only feasible to use in the summer here because of
all of the need for heat in the vehicle during the winter. Gasoline
powered cars have interior heaters that use the heat from the engine to
warm the inside of the car to keep the front windshield free of fog. An
electric car doesn't have excess heat that could be used to warm up the
inside of the car to keep the front and rear windshields free of fog.
That would require electric heaters which would severely reducing the
range of the car.

The bottom line is that electric cars would work well in cities with
warm climates year round. As soon as you start expecting electric cars
to work well in cold climates, the range of the car drops substantially.

In the warm climates Air condition is needed (wanted). So that eats up more
power. Could the air/heater be made like a heat pump and be reversed ? I
doubt it will heat up quick enough, but don't know.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 1:36:43 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:27:25 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 12/10/2014 12:27 PM, SMS wrote:

Very interesting study. Pardon the pun, but what you pay for=20
electricity is shocking. Private co. here in DE is about
11=A2/KWH. At my 6,000 mi/yr I'd save about $180/yr with hybrid
but if you factor=20 in extra cost of the hybrid over
conventional car savings would be nil.

That's what happens when you let a bunch of libs run things. I'll
bet if you look at the root causes, he's paying 32c/kwh because
they are funding moon beams, saving the whales, whatever, off his
electric bill.

As usual, your conservative filter has interjected nonsense. The
CPUC has instituted tiered rates to encourage conservation and
reduce the need to build new power plants.

As usual, you can't do basic math. All you've told us is that the
rates are being set artificially high by govt. Now think about it.
There is a huge, about 2X difference in revenue coming in and it's
got to be going somewhere. And if they are using it to chase
economically unviable energy sources, which even you apparently
acknowledge, that is indeed chasing moon beams and saving the whales.
Capiche?

the CPUC doesn't set rates, the power companies do. the CPUC has been
successful in lowering energy consumption to the point that with a
population larger than Texas it uses less electricity and no one is
being sent to the poor house


Baloney.

http://www.pge.com/myhome/saveenergy...s/howratesset/

"PG&E typically changes its electric rates two to three times a year and its natural gas rates every month to reflect changing revenues needs. Whenever PG&E needs to make significant rate changes, it makes a proposal to the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). PG&E's proposal is then reviewed in a public hearing process along with many stakeholder groups representing consumer, business, low-income, environmental, and agricultural interests among others. After this considerable review process, the CPUC then makes a decision on what is just and reasonable for customers to pay in rates after which PG&E reflects any change in rates as soon as possible."

And more importantly, it's the govt that has imposed all kinds of
mandates on utilities. For example, govt tells them that they must
get X% of their energy supply from "green" sources. If you believe in
moonbeams, as you libs usually do, then that doesn't matter. To the
rest of us, in the real world, we know it drives up the cost of energy.






The basic rate is about USD0.15/kwh for the
initial basic allocation and goes up in two tiers based on usage.
The highest rate is USD0.35/kwh for the top tier (but that only
accounts for about 10% or less of the average customer usage, so
they're paying much less per kwh each month).

So, again, the libs are artificially jacking up rates and screwing
the consumer, big time. And where is all that money going? How much
punishment to the citizens is enough? Have you libs no compassion
for the poor? I guess you like to screw them with one big hand, keep
them down and out, then pretend to help them with the other hand, by
making them dependent on govt and you libs for assistance.

no, the libs have reduced energy consumption and therefore improved the
financial ability of the "poor"


Baloney. Everyone is paying more for the energy they are actually
using. At 32c a kwh your usage would have to go down by a factor of
2.5 to be in the range of average rates. You think the poor have
magically cut their energy usage by a factor of 2.5? That anyone,
other than you moonbeam folks that spend $50K for a solar system have?
Good grief, you libs lie.





This stupidity is like the US screwing our economy, our citizens, our
jobs, by placing huge costs on the economy over CO2, while India and
China do as they please. It's like ****ing in the wind. In this
case, you libs must feel wonderful, pretending to save the
environment, while in almost every other state, we're enjoying
electric at half the rates or less, and what you're doing makes no
difference in the grand scheme.

rates might be lower, but bills aren't. you poor conservatives who feel
you have to have 150 incandescent bulbs can have them and one day your
CO2 rich power plant will run out of coal

Rates are lower, idiot. I'm paying 13c a kwh, not the jacked up lib
rate of 32c in CA.

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 1:27:25 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:51:03 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 12/10/2014 4:55 PM, Frank wrote:

Most lead goes into car batteries and most is recycled. I do make
bullets. I just looked at an ingredients list I have of what is in
unrefined lead. It would curl and environmentalist's hair seeing all
the stuff in there that is worse than lead, e.g. cadmium and thallium.

I think the concern at the time was pollution in Canada in mining the
extra nickle for NiMH batteries in the Prius. I see they offer both
those and Lithium batteries in new Prius's.


Using Scott Lundal's liberal logic, users of
electric cars need to be charged much more
for electric, to reduce consumption.

Hope someone calculates that in.

and those that use electricity from nukes should pay into a trust fund
so that the waste can be safely guarded for the 1000s of years it will
take to half-life down to lead

Two points. One is that a tax on nukes to pay for long term storage of
waste is very different than govt artificially screwing with and setting
market prices for energy. The second is, we had exactly that. A tax on
nukes to pay for the long term storage. It went on for years, until a court
ruled a couple years ago that it was illegal, since the tax was to fund the
nuclear waste storage. You libs killed that project in Nevada after billions
had already been spent on it and it was half completed. So, now nuclear
waste is piling up at storage pools at facilities all over the country,
instead of being at a highly secure, safe area. The tax is no longer
being collected. Feel better?

there is no such thing as a Highly Secure Area for nuke waste.

That's right, because you libs and tree huggers forced a halt in
contruction when it was half built, after billions had already been
spent on it. Instead of all that nuclear waste being secured
hundreds of feet inside a remote mountain with highly armed security, it's
sitting in water pools that are beyond capacity at your local nuclear
power plant, guarded by Barney Fife.



the waste
will have to be stored for tens of thousands of years and we can't even
read with certainty writings that are 5 thousand years old. "Oh look
daddy, that yellow sign is inviting us in to play with those old rocks"


I see. So, on the one hand, you libs are telling us that for sure the
whole planet will be wrecked within just a few more decades due to CO2,
with catastrophic, irreversible consequences that will kill millions .
But we shouldn't use nuclear power, which is a quick, sure way to reduce CO2,
because 5,000 years from now, some of the waste at Yucca Mountain *might*
escape. Makes as much sense as most of the rest of the screwed up
lib agenda.

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 1:39:06 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
"Reggie" wrote:

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:27:16 -0800, SMS
wrote:

I compared 11 electric-only vehicles and 11 plug-in hybrids for cost per
mile on electricity (for electric only) and cost per mile on electricity
versus cost per mile on gasoline. I did this at various prices per KWH
and prices per gallon.

What's interesting (and infuriating) is that about two miles away from
me is another city that doesn't use a for-profit utility, but that has a
municipally owned power company. They charge about 11/KWH (Silicon
Valley Power). I pay about 32 per KWH (PG&E).

Bottom line is that until gasoline is over $4.65 per gallon there's no
point in plugging my wife's Prius Plug-In. But someone in Santa Clara
should plug in as long as gasoline is more than $1.65 per gallon.

Unless you have free or low-cost electricity, the big advantage of
plug-in hybrids, or all-electric, vehicles, in California, are those
beautiful stickers that go on your bumpers that allow you to use the
carpool lanes with only one occupant in the vehicle. Actually they have
stopped issuing the stickers for the plug-in hybrid vehicles as they
reached the limit, but of course the vehicle manufacturers were able to
push through a bill expanding the number again.

Spreadsheet is at:

tinyurl.com/mpgvskwh or if you're scared of TinyURLs, use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...AgMOfGBY_Cxfb-
W_FJpIJQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1888830099.

Let me know of any errors. The data is not always easily available.
Especially the real battery capacity versus the rated capacity of the
battery pack if it were charged all the way (which vehicle manufacturers
don't do).


Good job. Looks to me that for a lot of people gas will cost about
twice as much per mile as electric. I say that based on people doing
the recharge at night when rates are lower. If I had an electric or
hybrid I'd charge it at night when my electric is about 9 cents a kWh.
That's going to get me a cost per mile on electric of about 3 cents a
mile. At any realistic gasoline price I'd be paying at least twice as
much per mile.

when everybody starts using a lot of electricity at night, the nighttime
rate will go up.

then people will start using more daytime electricity, like PVs

Calculate the size of the solar array that it takes to put a 100 mile
charge into a car in 8 hours and get back to us. And what happens when
it's a dark, cloudy, day?