"Joerg" wrote in message

dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.

Yup. Same here.

THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!

Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates
most of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they
were popular or even commonly available.


Unlikely, unless you are 130 years old. In restaurants or even some
upscale southern homes they had such fans back then. Often multiple
units driven by a common motor and belts. They had less than the usual
five blades of modern versions but they sure were ceiling fans.

Even today's style showed up in the stores over 100 years ago:

I didn't say they didn't have them, I said they weren't popular or commonly
available. That is true. Hell, I had to buy my first ones - Hunters - from
a company called "Fly Fan"...their customers were butchers and vendors in
open markets that bought them to shoo away flies.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 7/4/2014 11:34 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:


Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.


Heat pumps defy the laws of physics? If the air is cooled it changes
how much moisture it has in it. Take some time to learn how it works.

dadiOH wrote:
"Joerg" wrote in message

dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.

Yup. Same here.

THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!
Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates
most of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they
were popular or even commonly available.

Unlikely, unless you are 130 years old. In restaurants or even some
upscale southern homes they had such fans back then. Often multiple
units driven by a common motor and belts. They had less than the usual
five blades of modern versions but they sure were ceiling fans.

Even today's style showed up in the stores over 100 years ago:

I didn't say they didn't have them, I said they weren't popular or commonly
available. That is true. Hell, I had to buy my first ones - Hunters - from
a company called "Fly Fan"...their customers were butchers and vendors in
open markets that bought them to shoo away flies.


I got two fans from an old guy in the 70's and at that point the fans
were already really old. Judging by the (largely absent) electrical
safety measures pre-WW2 but certainly consumer-grade. I ended up
throwing them away because the plastic in the blades looked like an
imminent failure waiting to happen. Don't remember what it was
(bakelite?). With a large fan the results of a failure could be nasty.
It looked cool though.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Confucscious say only Muslim ceiling
fan blow up.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 14:59:34 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message

dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.

Yup. Same here.

THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!

Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates
most of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they
were popular or even commonly available.


Unlikely, unless you are 130 years old. In restaurants or even some
upscale southern homes they had such fans back then. Often multiple
units driven by a common motor and belts. They had less than the usual
five blades of modern versions but they sure were ceiling fans.

Even today's style showed up in the stores over 100 years ago:

I didn't say they didn't have them, I said they weren't popular or commonly
available. That is true. Hell, I had to buy my first ones - Hunters - from
a company called "Fly Fan"...their customers were butchers and vendors in
open markets that bought them to shoo away flies.
They were almost unheard of north of the Mason Dixon into the late
sixties or seventies. South of the Mason Dixon they were popular in
the early 1900s

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/4/2014 11:34 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:


Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.


Heat pumps defy the laws of physics? If the air is cooled it changes
how much moisture it has in it. Take some time to learn how it works.


Unless you run an evaporative cooler like we do. Best invention since
pivot irrigation.

One has to get used to it. I feel much more comfortable than with
traditional A/C but we have to make sure to always use coasters for
drinks such as beer that just came out of the fridge. Else there'll be
ugly water stains developing on the table.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 14:59:34 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message

dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.

Yup. Same here.

THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!
Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates
most of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they
were popular or even commonly available.

Unlikely, unless you are 130 years old. In restaurants or even some
upscale southern homes they had such fans back then. Often multiple
units driven by a common motor and belts. They had less than the usual
five blades of modern versions but they sure were ceiling fans.

Even today's style showed up in the stores over 100 years ago:
I didn't say they didn't have them, I said they weren't popular or commonly
available. That is true. Hell, I had to buy my first ones - Hunters - from
a company called "Fly Fan"...their customers were butchers and vendors in
open markets that bought them to shoo away flies.
They were almost unheard of north of the Mason Dixon into the late
sixties or seventies.


Our house (California) was built in 1970. It always had a ceiling fan in
the living room. Even older ones did, sometimes on the patio, gets hot
out here in the summer.


... South of the Mason Dixon they were popular in
the early 1900s


India had them a couple hundred years earlier, hand-operated and with
bio-degradable blades:

http://www.thestar.com/life/2014/06/...s_home_ed.html

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 7/4/2014 4:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
Unless you run an evaporative cooler like we do. Best invention since
pivot irrigation.

One has to get used to it. I feel much more comfortable than with
traditional A/C but we have to make sure to always use coasters for
drinks such as beer that just came out of the fridge. Else there'll be
ugly water stains developing on the table.

Swampers only work in dry climates. Living in NY State,
USA, the only swamper I've seen in person was the one
I helped to take apart and haul to the scrap yard.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, July 4, 2014 2:54:16 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message



On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:08:54 -0400, clare wrote:



On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott

wrote:



On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:



On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:



On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"



wrote:





"RobertMacy" wrote in message

newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico



wrote:





"RobertMacy" wrote in message

newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...

...snip...

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system

designed for? UP or DOWN air in the summer?



it depends if you have air conditioning.



again which way? for what reason? elaborate?



heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air

down so it can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might

as well leave the warm air up there were it will be less

noticed.



But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the

convection off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a

breeze is a big win, at least in small rooms, like a home.



We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way

undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower,

turn on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly

and inefficiently dry out the whole house.



It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in

Oregon,

where everyone is a humidity wimp.



Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is

exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by

running a small space heater which would make the AC run more often

which does a much better job of taking the humidity out of the air.

Actually, I've never seen a house with AC that still had high

humidity, but then I'm not in the Pacific northwest.



Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air

-- it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the

thing arranged to do it on purpose.

Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the

air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.

Cannot be done any other way.



Water does not dribble out of it, and even when it is going the

dehumidifier will remove gallons from this place in a day.



Water doesn't dribble out of it because there is a drain line from the air

handler to the outside. It doesn't remove ALL the water vapor...how much

depends upon air temperature and humidity.



--



dadiOH


I'm with you and Cl on this one. The physics of every AC says that when
you cool humid air, water condenses out. That water either has to go
out a drain line, dribble out, or else get deliberately put back into the
air, by reheating it somehow, like a hot pan. In the case of a residential
heat pump system, it would almost certainly be a drain line.

A make and model of the heat pump would settle it or perhaps a pic.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/4/2014 4:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
Unless you run an evaporative cooler like we do. Best invention since
pivot irrigation.

One has to get used to it. I feel much more comfortable than with
traditional A/C but we have to make sure to always use coasters for
drinks such as beer that just came out of the fridge. Else there'll be
ugly water stains developing on the table.

Swampers only work in dry climates. Living in NY State,
USA, the only swamper I've seen in person was the one
I helped to take apart and haul to the scrap yard.


They can also help in more humid climates, not as a direct cooler but as
a pre-cool stage outside, before the A/C condenser. However, my
impression is that much of the A/C industry is stuck in the times of the
Flintstones when it comes to innovation.

Of course this does not work in places where the humidity hovers around
90% a lot such as Houston.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 13:44:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/4/2014 11:34 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:


Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.


Heat pumps defy the laws of physics? If the air is cooled it changes
how much moisture it has in it. Take some time to learn how it works.


Unless you run an evaporative cooler like we do. Best invention since
pivot irrigation.

One has to get used to it. I feel much more comfortable than with
traditional A/C but we have to make sure to always use coasters for
drinks such as beer that just came out of the fridge. Else there'll be
ugly water stains developing on the table.
Evap cooling doesn't work too well in the Muggly Hot weather we get
here in the "interlaken" district of Ontario. 81% humidity doesn't
evaporate much even at 90F.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 13:57:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 14:59:34 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message

dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.

Yup. Same here.

THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!
Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates
most of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they
were popular or even commonly available.

Unlikely, unless you are 130 years old. In restaurants or even some
upscale southern homes they had such fans back then. Often multiple
units driven by a common motor and belts. They had less than the usual
five blades of modern versions but they sure were ceiling fans.

Even today's style showed up in the stores over 100 years ago:
I didn't say they didn't have them, I said they weren't popular or commonly
available. That is true. Hell, I had to buy my first ones - Hunters - from
a company called "Fly Fan"...their customers were butchers and vendors in
open markets that bought them to shoo away flies.
They were almost unheard of north of the Mason Dixon into the late
sixties or seventies.


Our house (California) was built in 1970. It always had a ceiling fan in
the living room. Even older ones did, sometimes on the patio, gets hot
out here in the summer.


... South of the Mason Dixon they were popular in
the early 1900s


India had them a couple hundred years earlier, hand-operated and with
bio-degradable blades:

http://www.thestar.com/life/2014/06/...s_home_ed.html

They had bigger better ones back then too. Cannot remember what they
were called, but the name was from the sound they made. Big wet
blankets flapped in the breeze.


I saw my first ceiling fans in Zambia in 1973. Not many in homes, but
common in public assembly areas

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 23:57:58 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Circulation alone makes a big difference. I have the blower turn on
for 15min/hr during the night to keep the air mixed. During the day
the AC is on enough that it's not necessary.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the
warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win,
at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.

A heat pump is just a reversible AC, so it will heat in the Winter.
Otherwise it's exactly the same process, so will do the exact same
thing to the air (dry it out - either direction .

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 20:09:24 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:01:14 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/3/2014 8:42 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Mine cost $40 at Home Depot and doesn't have all those fancy features;
3 speeds, no light, no direction. It is quiet. In our climate, we
probably use it 5 or 10 nights per year, for the rare heat wave.

Ceiling fans are impressive. They seem to last forever.

I did tie it into the ceiling real good. Nothing wrecks your sleep
like a fan falling on you.

Hi,
Sounds like you have an experience with falling ceiling fan on you?
I have 3 of them fancy ones on top floor of the house. Very seldom use
them. Today it is VERY hot(for us at least), 30.7C in my front yard.
30C temp. here is not usual. Rather -30C is usual in winter, LOL!

30°C doesn't sound so bad to me. I like the 30°C days. It is the 33°C
days like we've been having when it starts to be a bother. This weekend
should be nice though. High around 30°C, low around 14°C at night.
Nice sleeping weather.
Low humidity 30C is comfortable. 28C and 60+% humidity is a different
story. But still better than 39C and 90+% humidity in Livingstone in
October!!!

Hi,
I just took a look on my Davis weather station console. 32% indoor, 43%
outdoor humidity. This week end Stampede starts, hope we have good, dry
weather next 10 days.

We just did the I80 drive from SF to Truckee. It was about 60F in SF
(warm!) and hit 102 from Sacramento to Auburn. It's 70F, 20% RH here
now, good beer weather. The gradient up the slope is usually about 1
deg F per 300 feet of altitude, but today it was about twice that.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:39:48 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:16:50 -0700, V Ague wrote:

On 07/04/2014 08:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...snip....
There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody
sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.



Somebody slept through science class.

I took him to mean "Nobody sweats in Arizona..." a bit more tongue in
cheek, because we're allowed to carry in this state.

I took it to mean that it was so dry sweat evaporates so fast there is
no sign of them perspiring.

You can carry in VT, too, but just watch the people sweat when it gets
to 85F. ...or the welfare or trust fund check is late.

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

What brand of fan did you buy that it does not reverse?

That is silly.

And if you installed it, why would you install a fan that is so
sub-par? There cannot be that great a savings between them, even if
such fans enjoy a market. Maybe I never looked for them, but an air
circulator fan (ceiling fan)always has a bi-directional motor.

And if it came with the house, I would be looking to kick a
contractor's ass, especially in *that* town. I didn't think anything up
there was done '**** poor'.

Or maybe you never actually inspected the fan itself.

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:28:13 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 18:40:06 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Ceiling exhaust fan !!! when it's 105 outside no way!!! you want me to
suck in outside air at those temps??!!

Let's see at night 81 during day 105, making the average high side of 93,
sounds about right.

I thought it gets kinda cold at night in Az. I've only been there
once. It was quite hot during the day, but we nearly froze sleeping
in the car at night.

Since I painted my house a darker color and take advanatage of 'night time
radiation' the average in our house has dropped substantially. Who would
have thought? dark house = cooler average, light colored house = hotter
average. but true we noticed a difference the moment the house was painted.

In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to
reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the
sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the
collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are
you sure?


Absorption usually means a soaking-in and re-radiation of energy and
thermal mass gets "stored", so it remains after the source dissipates..

Reflection is better, but your building cannot be an "absorber". It
too must also reflect.

I do not think anyone could present a case that differs with these
basic physical precepts.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 02:11:00 -0400, Stormin Mormon
Gave us:

On 7/3/2014 7:53 PM, RobertMacy wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.


Yup. Same here.


THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!

Consulting the works of Aristotle, Confucious, and
Ann Landers..... provides a variety of data.

Try one, try the other. Do what works for you.


Great answer.

The thread could have turned philosophical even sooner.

Do not forget Tzu.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:01:04 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

What brand of fan did you buy that it does not reverse?

That is silly.

And if you installed it, why would you install a fan that is so
sub-par? There cannot be that great a savings between them, even if
such fans enjoy a market. Maybe I never looked for them, but an air
circulator fan (ceiling fan)always has a bi-directional motor.

And if it came with the house, I would be looking to kick a
contractor's ass, especially in *that* town. I didn't think anything up
there was done '**** poor'.

Or maybe you never actually inspected the fan itself.
There are lots of cheap uni-directional fans on the market. $19.95
China specials. Usually only in white, but likely others out there.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:39:48 -0700, RobertMacy
Gave us:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:16:50 -0700, V Ague wrote:

On 07/04/2014 08:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...snip....
There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody
sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.



Somebody slept through science class.

I took him to mean "Nobody sweats in Arizona..." a bit more tongue in
cheek, because we're allowed to carry in this state.

That is funny, actually.

BRL! Type I & II (**** that LOL ****)

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:44:44 -0700, RobertMacy
Gave us:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:24:07 -0700, Red Green wrote:

...snip...
Seriously, I've had that poster full size. Earth is less significant than
a grain of sand among all the sand on the planet combined.

It is my understanding that according to scripture the purpose of the sky,
and its complexity, is a way for God to talk to His people, to those who
can read His messages. Not meant for everyone, but makes sense. Certainly
explains why earth is located where it is.


Interesting, but it seems that you too have forgotten to consider the
dark matter. Or maybe that was referenced in the nat geo pic...

We really do not know just how insignificant we are.

That is what religion is. Our attempt at making OURSELVES look more
important in the grand scheme of things, since someone took the time to
create us and even watch over us. It isn't about faith to an unprovable
entity. It is about exalting US as what that entity has taken time out
of his life to fuss over.

Sure...

Maybe "God" is those huge dark matter strings interconnecting between
galaxies and far reaches of our existence.

We are but one small node on a very huge string.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 16:04:06 -0400, Stormin Mormon
Gave us:

Confucscious say only Muslim ceiling
fan blow up.


No. Only Muslim Extremist ceiling fan blow up.

Intelligent, civil Muslims are able to blow their fans down or up, and
are like you or me.

The really hard part is precise dissemination.

It was easy to tell this guy had his ceiling fan set correctly, and
that he reached said ceiling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvRLzux-fL8

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 21:33:06 -0400, Gave us:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:39:48 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:16:50 -0700, V Ague wrote:

On 07/04/2014 08:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...snip....
There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody
sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.



Somebody slept through science class.

I took him to mean "Nobody sweats in Arizona..." a bit more tongue in
cheek, because we're allowed to carry in this state.

I took it to mean that it was so dry sweat evaporates so fast there is
no sign of them perspiring.

You can carry in VT, too, but just watch the people sweat when it gets
to 85F. ...or the welfare or trust fund check is late.


Higher and more often gun maint program. Can't let the sweaty little
******* get rusty.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 22:18:11 -0400, Gave us:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:01:04 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

What brand of fan did you buy that it does not reverse?

That is silly.

And if you installed it, why would you install a fan that is so
sub-par? There cannot be that great a savings between them, even if
such fans enjoy a market. Maybe I never looked for them, but an air
circulator fan (ceiling fan)always has a bi-directional motor.

And if it came with the house, I would be looking to kick a
contractor's ass, especially in *that* town. I didn't think anything up
there was done '**** poor'.

Or maybe you never actually inspected the fan itself.
There are lots of cheap uni-directional fans on the market. $19.95
China specials. Usually only in white, but likely others out there.


But what idiot in their right mind, especially in greater SF would buy
or use such a cheap POS in a perm install?

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:28:13 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 18:40:06 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Ceiling exhaust fan !!! when it's 105 outside no way!!! you want me to
suck in outside air at those temps??!!

Let's see at night 81 during day 105, making the average high side of 93,
sounds about right.

I thought it gets kinda cold at night in Az. I've only been there
once. It was quite hot during the day, but we nearly froze sleeping
in the car at night.

Since I painted my house a darker color and take advanatage of 'night time
radiation' the average in our house has dropped substantially. Who would
have thought? dark house = cooler average, light colored house = hotter
average. but true we noticed a difference the moment the house was painted.

In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to
reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the
sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the
collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are
you sure?

From New York:
http://whiteroofproject.org/about/mission/
A roof covered with solar-reflective white paint reflects
up to 90% of sunlight as opposed to the 20% reflected by
a traditional black roof. On a 90°F day, a black roof can
be up to 180°F while a white roof stays a cool 100°F
reducing cooling costs up to 40 percent.

The problem is that the temperature of the roof only tells part of the
story. If the ceiling area was super insulated, the indoor
temperature would be independent of the roof temperature. Kinda looks
like this is based on the assumption that some of the roof heat is
conducted into the building interior. That works, but I suspect
varies radically with building construction and ceiling insulation.

The advantage of a black roof might be because black radiates heat
better than white. The black roof might be hotter during the day, but
as soon as the sun goes down, a black roof will cool down quicker than
a white roof. That might affect the average.

Mo
http://whiteroofproject.org/research/scientific-data/
http://whiteroofproject.org/research/urban-heat-islands/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_roof
http://www.globalcoolcities.org
http://www.nyc.gov/html/coolroofs

Unscientific anecdotal drivel: My office building was blessed with a
shiny new white roof in Oct 2013. It was previously black asphalt and
a thin layer of fine gray rock. It seems much cooler inside this
summer, but I have no measurements to prove it.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the
warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win,
at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.
Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the
air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.
Cannot be done any other way.

Depends a bit. If the cooling coil is kept only a little below room
temperature and you depend on sheer volume for heat transfer, you may not
condense much water compared to having a sub-zero cooling coil and lower
air volumes.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 00:17:36 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/3/2014 9:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
However, if the system leaks and is therefore not adiabatic, the story
is a little different. Heat will be introduced into the room through
the ceiling and windows. The result with be a temperature gradient
where the ceiling and window air are warmer than the air near the
floor. The only temperature of importance is your head, which
radiates most of the waste heat from your body.

I would love to see a reference for this factoid. It is an often
perpetuated myth that half you heat leaves your body through your head.
Simply not supported by the facts.

As usual, it depends on the circumstances. At rest, the head radiates
about 7-10% of the body heat. When exercising, the increased surface
blood flow increases this to 50%. Presumably, the OP is not
exercising under his ceiling fan:
http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2839/do-we-lose-most-of-our-body-heat-through-our-heads
http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/681/what-are-areas-of-the-body-which-lose-heat-more-quickly-and-how-can-i-reduce-th

Because it is closer
to the ceiling than the floor, a fan blowing downward will heat your
head instead of cooling it, as you observed.

This statement shows no understanding of human physiology. Even
ignoring the issue of perspiration and evaporative cooling, the human
body is nominally at 98°F and will be cooled better in an airstream of
even 90°F than in still air.

Correct, although I suspect the cooling is mostly from evaporative
cooling, not convection. The part of my rant that you trimmed
indicates that this was in reference to the relative merits of the fan
blowing air down or up. I indicated that blowing down would be more
effective for cooling because the head is closer to the air source and
therefore has a higher air flow rate. Further away would be less
effective. If the fan it going to cool the head, the optimum location
would be closest to the fan (unless the OP is into standing on his
head).

However, the OP didn't specify the temperature of the air near the
ceiling. If the ceiling air were hotter than body temperature, a
downward blowing fan will heat the cranium instead of cooling it. It
would be like trying to stay cool using a hair dryer blowing from
above. I can believe that blowing HOT air downward might result in
heating instead of cooling.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 7/4/2014 2:37 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:55:56 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 10:31 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.
If the AC is oversized it is not efficient at removing humidity
because it doesn't run long enough. ANd if it isn't warm enough to
require running the AC, you still have the humidity.

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Slowly getting her trained, after 33 years.

But that is exactly what you *are* doing, running that dehumidifier is
the same as running the big AC unit. I guess it might be more expensive
to run the heat outside rather than keep it in.... but no, the heat is
always run outside by the big unit because of the thermostat.

Clearly the small unit is less efficient, small things usually are. So
why not run the big unit that does a great job of removing the moisture?
It is larger so will need to run much less to lower the humidity. It
is also equipped to remove the water while most room dehumidifiers have
a bucket you need to empty unless you have it tied into a drain.
You are not getting my point. The AC, if oversized, moves a lot of
air over the cold colil for a short amount of time while drawing large
amount of current and removing a small amount of humidity.

I do "get" your point, I just don't agree with it.


A smaller A/C moves less air over the cold coil for a longer period of
time, and moves more air to reduce the temperature by the same amount,
using less power to do so.

I don't think that follows. Most of the power in an AC unit is in the
compressor which creates the cooling. Reducing the temperature of the
air is going to take the same total amount of cooling, so there is no
power saving in a smaller unit. They size units to keep the initial
costs down and to provide enough cooling for the warmest days.


so it removes more moisture for the same
amount of current drawn. The BTU/watt efficiency may very well be the
same - or the big one may even be more efficient - but the efficiency
as a dehumidifier is significantly better on the smaller A/C unit.

Your conclusions simply don't follow your premise. Unless there is
something less effective about the condensation of water in the large
unit it will end up collecting the same amount of moisture from the air.
But in reality there is an effect that makes the larger unit work
better. If the airflow over the coils does not cool the air below the
dew point, no water condenses at all. A sufficiently small unit with an
adequate air flow may well not lower the air temperature enough to
extract enough water during the process.


If it is not cool enough to require air conditioning, but is too humid
for comfort, running a small de-humidifier is a LOT more efficient
than running the big-assed air conditioner AND the furnace!!!!

Again, no substantiation, just a claim. Running the small dehumidifier
removes small amounts of water AND warms the room requiring the AC to
run. Running the large AC unit will remove the water more quickly. If
it does not remove enough water heat must be added as it runs to remove
enough humidity (becoming a dehumidfier). The question is which unit is
more efficient as a dehumidifier and talking about "big-assed" ACs does
not answer the question. You are coming up with an answer based on an
emotional analysis of inadequate data.

The one fact I know is that my AC unit produces enough water to require
a pump to remove it and runs repeatedly all day. A dehumidifier I have
used will fill the two gallon bucket in a day or so in the worst humid
days of summer in the DC area. Still not sufficient data to prove one
or the other since I have never measured the output. But the AC only
cycles on and off while the dehumidifier runs continuously 24/7 until
the bucket is full.


Only a total idiot would run the AC and heat at the same time to
reduce the humidity in the house.

You still fail to understand that is *exactly* what you are doing with
the dehumidifier. It had a hot coil and a cold coil. The hot coil
produces all the heat entering the cold coil plus the electrical energy
coming from the outlet. So you actually warm the room with that unit
requiring the AC to turn on even if it is otherwise not needed.


As for the de-humidifier producing heat - it only produced a fraction
of it's total power consumption as heat output. The heat coming off
the back of the unit is just heat removed from the air (and moisture)
entering the front of the unit. The latent heat of
vaporization/condensation of the water removed is the only appreciable
"heat" produced. (971 BTU/lb) So for every US gallon of water removed,
aproxemately 8000 BTU.

If it takes 12 hours to remove a gallon, that is 672 btu/hr or less
than 200 watts.

I'm not sure what you mean by the fraction comment. ALL electrical
energy consumed by this unit ends up as heat, mostly at the hot coil.

The condensed water has had its heat removed and then put back into the
air on the hot side of the unit. The question is where does that heat
go? Only part of the heat at the hot coil was from cooling the air,
most of it was from condensing the water. With a dehumidifier the
entire latent heat of evaporation is returned to the room along with the
heat from the electrical power required to make it all work. This will
heat up the room. With an AC unit that heat is exhausted outside
reducing your cooling costs. Don't think the latent heat of evaporation
needs to be returned to the room to maintain a temperature. When water
evaporates it cools. When it condenses it releases that heat and will
warm the room.

I guess one difference is that we have few days when we need
dehumidification but not cooling. If you actually need your space
warmed with dehumidification rather than cooled, then the dehumidifier
might be more efficient. But if you don't need the extra heat the AC
unit will have to run to maintain a temperature.

--

Rick

On 2014-07-03, RobertMacy wrote:
It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

down, if it's no causing wind-chill it's not running fast enough.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 2014-07-04, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.

the cooling coil always collects condensation from the air (except in
very dry locations). When the drain blocks or the pump quits you'll
find out how much moisture it wasn't removing.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 2014-07-04, John Larkin wrote:

Ceiling fans are impressive. They seem to last forever.

it's an induction motor. the only wear part in the bearings and it
rotates slowly compared to most other motors.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 7/4/2014 2:51 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I do much the same thing. At night, I leave the house partly open so
that it cools down. In the morning, I close all the doors and windows
to trap in the cold air. At about noon, the house warms up to the
same as outside temperature, so I open with windows.

I like to do the same thing when we have cool nights like tonight. More
important than cooling the air in the house is cooling the house itself.
Air heats and cools quickly, the materials of the house, not so much.
So let the house cool as much as possible then shut the house when the
temperatures start to rise. I can't remember the house ever reaching
the outside temperature by noon, the equal point is usually in the
evening when the outside starts to cool again.

--

Rick

On 7/4/2014 11:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 00:17:36 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/3/2014 9:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
However, if the system leaks and is therefore not adiabatic, the story
is a little different. Heat will be introduced into the room through
the ceiling and windows. The result with be a temperature gradient
where the ceiling and window air are warmer than the air near the
floor. The only temperature of importance is your head, which
radiates most of the waste heat from your body.

I would love to see a reference for this factoid. It is an often
perpetuated myth that half you heat leaves your body through your head.
Simply not supported by the facts.

As usual, it depends on the circumstances. At rest, the head radiates
about 7-10% of the body heat. When exercising, the increased surface
blood flow increases this to 50%. Presumably, the OP is not
exercising under his ceiling fan:
http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2839/do-we-lose-most-of-our-body-heat-through-our-heads

Ok, I found this discussion and clicked the link for the first reference
on the exercise issue...

Not Found

The requested URL /12401.php was not found on this server.
Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) Server at researchfrontiers.uark.edu Port 80

The second section refers to a reference that is a Wilderness Medicine
Newsletter. I have not heard of them and they do not give references
to the work of the people they say they interviewed. So I'm not sure
what to believe of the conclusions. They say...

.... discovered that we do indeed lose heat through any exposed part of
the body and the amount of heat we lose depends on the amount of exposed
surface area. The rate of heat loss is relatively the same for any
exposed part of the body not simply the head. You do not lose heat
significantly faster through the scalp than any other portion of the
body with the same surface area.

Later...

As you begin exercise, cerebral blood flow increases due to increased
cardiac output and the percentage of heat lost through the head accounts
for about 50 percent of total body heat loss. As exercise continues,
more oxygen is directed toward muscle and blood flow to this tissue
increases. Core temperature has to be maintained and as body heat
increases, the skin arterioles expand, or vasodilate, redirecting blood
flow to the skin which cools the blood. Hence, total blood flow to the
brain is decreased and the percentage of total body heat lost through
the head is reduced to about 10 percent. The percent lost through the
scalp returns to 7 percent after sweating begins.

So depending on the phase of exercise they claim 50%, 10% and 7% but in
contradiction to the initial statements that there is little if any
difference in the different parts of the body regarding heat loss.

Earlier in this discussion a post is made the references an old US Army
training book, US ARMY SURVIVAL MANUAL, BASIC PRINCIPLES OF COLD WEATHER
SURVIVAL. The info in this book has been widely misinterpreted where
they talk about wearing a survival suit but with no head protection;
then the head does loose 50% of the heat from the body.

Regardless, your claim is about a person nominally at rest I would
assume. If you are referring to a person exercising the 50% number only
applies during the initial portion of the exercise before they warm up.




http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/681/what-are-areas-of-the-body-which-lose-heat-more-quickly-and-how-can-i-reduce-th

This link discusses (again with no verifiable references) that there are
parts of the body with higher heat loss per square inch than other areas
when not vasoconstricted. But nowhere is there info to support the
statement, "The only temperature of importance is your head, which
radiates most of the waste heat from your body."

So in the words of Mythbusters... BUSTED!


Because it is closer
to the ceiling than the floor, a fan blowing downward will heat your
head instead of cooling it, as you observed.

This statement shows no understanding of human physiology. Even
ignoring the issue of perspiration and evaporative cooling, the human
body is nominally at 98°F and will be cooled better in an airstream of
even 90°F than in still air.

Correct, although I suspect the cooling is mostly from evaporative
cooling, not convection. The part of my rant that you trimmed
indicates that this was in reference to the relative merits of the fan
blowing air down or up.

I objected to this statement...

"The only temperature of importance is your head, which radiates most
of the waste heat from your body."


I indicated that blowing down would be more
effective for cooling because the head is closer to the air source and
therefore has a higher air flow rate. Further away would be less
effective. If the fan it going to cool the head, the optimum location
would be closest to the fan (unless the OP is into standing on his
head).

However, the OP didn't specify the temperature of the air near the
ceiling. If the ceiling air were hotter than body temperature, a
downward blowing fan will heat the cranium instead of cooling it. It
would be like trying to stay cool using a hair dryer blowing from
above. I can believe that blowing HOT air downward might result in
heating instead of cooling.

The point is any reference of cooling the head vs. the rest of the body
in invalid. The more important part of the issue is that a ceiling fan
blowing up will only cause an indirect, dispersed air flow to the person
with nearly no effect.

To talk about the hot air next to the ceiling assumes that that hot air
is not dispersed in the first minute of use which is not valid.

The relative cooling has to do with the airflows, not with the thermal
emission of the head.

--

Rick

On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 00:15:13 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 2:37 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:55:56 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 10:31 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.
If the AC is oversized it is not efficient at removing humidity
because it doesn't run long enough. ANd if it isn't warm enough to
require running the AC, you still have the humidity.

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Slowly getting her trained, after 33 years.

But that is exactly what you *are* doing, running that dehumidifier is
the same as running the big AC unit. I guess it might be more expensive
to run the heat outside rather than keep it in.... but no, the heat is
always run outside by the big unit because of the thermostat.

Clearly the small unit is less efficient, small things usually are. So
why not run the big unit that does a great job of removing the moisture?
It is larger so will need to run much less to lower the humidity. It
is also equipped to remove the water while most room dehumidifiers have
a bucket you need to empty unless you have it tied into a drain.
You are not getting my point. The AC, if oversized, moves a lot of
air over the cold colil for a short amount of time while drawing large
amount of current and removing a small amount of humidity.

I do "get" your point, I just don't agree with it.


A smaller A/C moves less air over the cold coil for a longer period of
time, and moves more air to reduce the temperature by the same amount,
using less power to do so.

I don't think that follows. Most of the power in an AC unit is in the
compressor which creates the cooling. Reducing the temperature of the
air is going to take the same total amount of cooling, so there is no
power saving in a smaller unit. They size units to keep the initial
costs down and to provide enough cooling for the warmest days.


so it removes more moisture for the same
amount of current drawn. The BTU/watt efficiency may very well be the
same - or the big one may even be more efficient - but the efficiency
as a dehumidifier is significantly better on the smaller A/C unit.

Your conclusions simply don't follow your premise.


That's not being nice.


Unless there is
something less effective about the condensation of water in the large
unit it will end up collecting the same amount of moisture from the air.
But in reality there is an effect that makes the larger unit work
better. If the airflow over the coils does not cool the air below the
dew point, no water condenses at all. A sufficiently small unit with an
adequate air flow may well not lower the air temperature enough to
extract enough water during the process.


If it is not cool enough to require air conditioning, but is too humid
for comfort, running a small de-humidifier is a LOT more efficient
than running the big-assed air conditioner AND the furnace!!!!

Again, no substantiation, just a claim.


You are turning into Sloman, if you aren't Sloman already. Constant
droning insults.





Running the small dehumidifier
removes small amounts of water AND warms the room requiring the AC to
run. Running the large AC unit will remove the water more quickly. If
it does not remove enough water heat must be added as it runs to remove
enough humidity (becoming a dehumidfier). The question is which unit is
more efficient as a dehumidifier and talking about "big-assed" ACs does
not answer the question. You are coming up with an answer based on an
emotional analysis of inadequate data.

The one fact I know is that my AC unit produces enough water to require
a pump to remove it and runs repeatedly all day. A dehumidifier I have
used will fill the two gallon bucket in a day or so in the worst humid
days of summer in the DC area. Still not sufficient data to prove one
or the other since I have never measured the output. But the AC only
cycles on and off while the dehumidifier runs continuously 24/7 until
the bucket is full.


Only a total idiot would run the AC and heat at the same time to
reduce the humidity in the house.

You still fail to understand...


See what I mean?

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:01:04 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

What brand of fan did you buy that it does not reverse?

Can't recall. $40 at Home Depot. Works great.



That is silly.

And if you installed it, why would you install a fan that is so
sub-par?

It moves air nicely, looks good, and it's well balanced and quiet.
Nothing sub-par in sight.


There cannot be that great a savings between them, even if
such fans enjoy a market. Maybe I never looked for them, but an air
circulator fan (ceiling fan)always has a bi-directional motor.

And if it came with the house, I would be looking to kick a
contractor's ass, especially in *that* town. I didn't think anything up
there was done '**** poor'.

Or maybe you never actually inspected the fan itself.

I bought it and installed it. We use it maybe 5 nights a year, when
it's hot in San Francisco, which is rarely is.

We passed a big billboard this morning, downtown, right beside highway
101. It must cost a fortune. It's by Nest, the thermostat people. It
says, as I recall,

"San Francisco, get a NEST thermostat and save on your summer heating
bill."

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:53:44 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 22:18:11 -0400, Gave us:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:01:04 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

What brand of fan did you buy that it does not reverse?

That is silly.

And if you installed it, why would you install a fan that is so
sub-par? There cannot be that great a savings between them, even if
such fans enjoy a market. Maybe I never looked for them, but an air
circulator fan (ceiling fan)always has a bi-directional motor.

And if it came with the house, I would be looking to kick a
contractor's ass, especially in *that* town. I didn't think anything up
there was done '**** poor'.

Or maybe you never actually inspected the fan itself.
There are lots of cheap uni-directional fans on the market. $19.95
China specials. Usually only in white, but likely others out there.


But what idiot in their right mind, especially in greater SF would buy
or use such a cheap POS in a perm install?

I love our ceiling fan. My wife loves our ceiling fan. You don't like
our ceiling fan. Fortunately, you don't matter.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 23:00:21 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:01:04 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

What brand of fan did you buy that it does not reverse?

Can't recall. $40 at Home Depot. Works great.



That is silly.

And if you installed it, why would you install a fan that is so
sub-par?

It moves air nicely, looks good, and it's well balanced and quiet.
Nothing sub-par in sight.


There cannot be that great a savings between them, even if
such fans enjoy a market. Maybe I never looked for them, but an air
circulator fan (ceiling fan)always has a bi-directional motor.

And if it came with the house, I would be looking to kick a
contractor's ass, especially in *that* town. I didn't think anything up
there was done '**** poor'.

Or maybe you never actually inspected the fan itself.

I bought it and installed it. We use it maybe 5 nights a year, when
it's hot in San Francisco, which is rarely is.

We passed a big billboard this morning, downtown, right beside highway
101. It must cost a fortune. It's by Nest, the thermostat people. It
says, as I recall,

"San Francisco, get a NEST thermostat and save on your summer heating
bill."


Hey, it's famous already:

http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com/.a/...d2218a2970b-pi

On 7/5/2014 2:10 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:53:44 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
But what idiot in their right mind, especially in greater SF would buy
or use such a cheap POS in a perm install?

I love our ceiling fan. My wife loves our ceiling fan. You don't like
our ceiling fan. Fortunately, you don't matter.



Probably a Faux news viewer?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:51:32 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 21:33:06 -0400, Gave us:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:39:48 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:16:50 -0700, V Ague wrote:

On 07/04/2014 08:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...snip....
There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody
sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.



Somebody slept through science class.

I took him to mean "Nobody sweats in Arizona..." a bit more tongue in
cheek, because we're allowed to carry in this state.

I took it to mean that it was so dry sweat evaporates so fast there is
no sign of them perspiring.

You can carry in VT, too, but just watch the people sweat when it gets
to 85F. ...or the welfare or trust fund check is late.


Higher and more often gun maint program.

Better; move.

Can't let the sweaty little ******* get rusty.

Stainless.