On 7/3/2014 7:53 PM, RobertMacy wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.


Yup. Same here.


THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!

Consulting the works of Aristotle, Confucious, and
Ann Landers..... provides a variety of data.

Try one, try the other. Do what works for you.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thursday, July 3, 2014 10:43:06 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 7/3/2014 9:19 PM, RobertMacy wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 17:54:04 -0700, rickman wrote:



...snip...

Wow, you seem to have a problem with authority. Of course you can use

the fan anyway you wish.



Problem with authority? Maybe, but it was a LEARNED response.



Actually, I was trying to confirm whether others experienced what I had

found empirically, and was in direct opposition to the 'experts'

suggestion. Plus, convince Ms. Macy that I am NOT an idiot and

delusional for thinking I know more than the experts on these House shows.



The recommendation has nothing to do with your

house, it has to do with your skin. As others have pointed out when

it is warm a slight breeze can feel good, so the fan is set to blow

down so you can feel it. In the winter when it is cool you don't want

to feel the breeze, so set it to up. By the time the circulation

reaches you it is greatly dispersed and you don't feel the cool air so

much.





I thought that way too, directly blowing down onto me in hot weather

'sounded' better. But just confirmed that blowing down on me ended up

'feeling' a good 5 degrees hotter, than letting air come in from the

sides. I now have the fan set for UP and it feels cooler in the room

than with NO fan. And earlier it definitely felt hotter with the fan

blowing DOWN, by several degrees above what it was like with NO fam.



I can't explain that and it is in direct opposition to what I have

observed. With the fan blowing down gently I feel the breeze and it

helps. I never felt like the air was a warm wind. With the fan blowing

up I don't feel anything, but then my ceiling may be higher than yours,

it is a cathedral ceiling.

+1

The effect I've noticed is exactly what you describe. I have mine
set to blow down. I only use them in the summer. I feel breeze,
which has a cooling effect. I don't notice that the air is hotter.

With it set to go up, I don't notice much of anything. I'm also not
buying the theory that in winter it should go the other way and it;s
going to be a good thing. If you leave air alone, I would think
you'd get some boundarly layer effect, where the air meets the surfaces.
By disrupting that, I would think you could have more energy loss,
just like air blowing past a radiator transfers more heat.

On Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:19:00 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:27:29 -0700, RobertMacy

wrote:



So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN

air in the summer?



If your room is a well insulated adiabatic system, it doesn't matter.

The fan just mixes the air until the air in the room is all the same

temperature. Whether you mix from the bottom or top has little effect

on the final temperature.



It does matter because blowing down you typically get a breeze blowing
down on you, which has a cooling effect, especially in summer, when
you're going to sweat more.

On Friday, July 4, 2014 2:08:16 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
Hi Robert,



It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes

across the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the

ceiling fan - so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air

straight at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min

felt hotter in the room.



If the fan has been off for a while, there will be a pool of hot air near

the ceiling. When you turn the fan on, it may feel warmer for a while

until that hot air mixes with the cooler air below.



So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or

DOWN air in the summer?



A ceiling fan doesn't change the actual temperature in the room (watch

your thermometer).

It can certainly change the temperature at the lower part of the room.
Hot air rises and a fan blowing down will push hot air down.


It just feels cooler because the air moves across your

skin.

That's the main effect that I've seen. The air being pushed down
may be a little warmer, but the effect of the breeze is more
significant and you feel cooler.




That's why you should only run the fan when you're in the house.

You're just wasting energy if you're not in the house to feel the breeze.



+1




In a closed room, it really shouldn't make any difference which way the

fan blows. The fan simply circulates the air, one direction or the other,

but it moves the same amount of air either way. Doorways and other

openings can alter the airflow somewhat, but that's the basic principle.



It makes a big difference, because with the air blowing up, there is
little direct breeze on you. With it down, there is a direct breeze.





That said, the breeze will be strongest directly in front of the fan

where it is less dispersed. Since I spend more time walking beneath the

fan than I do above it, I always have my fan blowing down. That way I am

more likely to feel the air flow.



Bingo



In any case, try both directions and see which is more comfortable in

your home where you spend the most time.



I rarely use my ceiling fan in the winter. I don't want air moving across

my skin to make me feel cooler. About the only time I use the fan in the

winter is if we are using our woodstove, in which case it helps equalize

the heat in the house instead of being warm in one room and cool in the

others.


+1 to that. I never use mine in winter either.

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

--

Rick

On 7/4/2014 12:28 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 18:40:06 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Ceiling exhaust fan !!! when it's 105 outside no way!!! you want me to
suck in outside air at those temps??!!

Let's see at night 81 during day 105, making the average high side of 93,
sounds about right.

I thought it gets kinda cold at night in Az. I've only been there
once. It was quite hot during the day, but we nearly froze sleeping
in the car at night.

Since I painted my house a darker color and take advanatage of 'night time
radiation' the average in our house has dropped substantially. Who would
have thought? dark house = cooler average, light colored house = hotter
average. but true we noticed a difference the moment the house was painted.

In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to
reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the
sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the
collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are
you sure?

I initially thought he was wrong, but consider the two situations. In
the day the house is absorbing sunlight radiated from the Sun at many
thousands of degrees. At night the house is radiating heat into the
void at around -273°C. I'd say the more significant factor is the
daylight situation, but the devil is in the details and I would love to
see some real data on the situation.

--

Rick

Robert Macy wrote: "- show quoted text -

aha! distance to the ceiling making a difference, hmmmm, 10 ft ceilings so
the fan has the luxury of being down a bit from the ceiling.

assume 'v' mean down? "

That's what I said!

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm
It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Fans "cool" by moving air across your skin; the moving air evaporates
moisture from your skin...the more that moves and the faster it moves, the
cooler you will feel. Therefore, blow the air down to feel cooler.

Hot air rises. In winter, blow air up so that the warmer air at the ceiling
will be blown down.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.


Yup. Same here.


THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!

Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates most
of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they were
popular or even commonly available. At the same time, central air
conditioning in homes was very uncommon; even room air conditoners. My fans
ran down, May through October (the other months were cool enough so that
they weren't needed).

We now have central air but it is rarely used . It is rarely used because we
like open windows and don't often need it. Why don't we need it? BECAUSE
THE FANS RUN DOWN.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4h8sc2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

...snip....
Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

AZ housing is noted for these fans.

There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Friday, July 4, 2014 4:06:11 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:



On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"

wrote:





"RobertMacy" wrote in message

newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:





"RobertMacy" wrote in message

newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...

...snip...

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP

or DOWN air in the summer?



it depends if you have air conditioning.



again which way? for what reason? elaborate?



heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it

can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm

air up there were it will be less noticed.



But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off

your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at

least in small rooms, like a home.



We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way

undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn

on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and

inefficiently dry out the whole house.



It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,

where everyone is a humidity wimp.



Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is

exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a

small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a

much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've

never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm

not in the Pacific northwest.



--



Rick

Just lowering the temp from 78 to 76 would probably make more
difference and use less energy. I keep my house at 76/77 here in NJ
and never have a problem with humidity. If it's been off because
I'm away, within about 20 mins, you can already feel a big difference
in humidity dropping.

On Friday, July 4, 2014 4:11:00 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 7/4/2014 12:28 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 18:40:06 -0700, RobertMacy

wrote:



Ceiling exhaust fan !!! when it's 105 outside no way!!! you want me to

suck in outside air at those temps??!!



Let's see at night 81 during day 105, making the average high side of 93,

sounds about right.



I thought it gets kinda cold at night in Az. I've only been there

once. It was quite hot during the day, but we nearly froze sleeping

in the car at night.



Since I painted my house a darker color and take advanatage of 'night time

radiation' the average in our house has dropped substantially. Who would

have thought? dark house = cooler average, light colored house = hotter

average. but true we noticed a difference the moment the house was painted.



In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to

reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the

sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the

collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are

you sure?



I initially thought he was wrong, but consider the two situations. In

the day the house is absorbing sunlight radiated from the Sun at many

thousands of degrees. At night the house is radiating heat into the

void at around -273�C. I'd say the more significant factor is the

daylight situation, but the devil is in the details and I would love to

see some real data on the situation.



--



Rick

There is a study that was done in Florida on identical houses
where they measured temps and energy usage with a variety of roofs.
Between white shingled roofs and black it resulted in something like
a 10% savings in AC energy at the peak in summer, with the houses
unoccupied. When houses were occupied, that savings got cut in
half. The reason I would suspect is that with the houses occupied,
a lot more AC is used, so while the savings amount is about the same,
the percentage is going to be less, because the overall usage number
is higher.

From which I concluded, it doesn't make much difference, at least for
me. I'm in NJ and the study was in FL, where the temps are much higher
over a much longer period. To make a roof choice color based on saving
$15 a year didn't make any sense to me.

On 07/04/2014 08:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4h8sc2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

...snip....
Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

AZ housing is noted for these fans.

There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.



Somebody slept through science class.

RobertMacy wrote in
newsp.xif7w8wc2cx0wh@ajm:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 17:34:44 -0700, Red Green
wrote:

RobertMacy wrote in
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm:
...snip....
claiming that lowers your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is
impossible in a CLOSED system] and save up to 40% on air
conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

I can only answer one of your questions. See red marking.

http://tinypic.com/r/whxjpl/8


Went there, waited ...and waited ...and waited, forgot what it was all
about, couldn't read the tiny little words, so gave up cursing and
swearing under my breath to return here ready to lambaste your reply
when upon rereading, realized what that image was! then, LOL!

Plus, the images had an unusual coordinate system for showing those
spatial diagrams. Had you not shown me those images, I NEVER would
have thought of using that type of presentation to potential clients
for showing accuracy of our proposed position-location system in that
simple manner, THANKS! See, there's a reason for everything!



So am I getting a cut of the profits?


Seriously, I've had that poster full size. Earth is less significant than
a grain of sand among all the sand on the planet combined.

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:28:13 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

...snip...
In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to
reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the
sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the
collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are
you sure?


Now you understand why I discount 'experts'

I do not know where the code is located but it is my understanding that in
AZ it is AGAINST the law in every municipality around these desert
communities to paint WHITE, too blinding, just not allowed. Instead, there
are a series of slightly darker/offwhite, desert colors, many named for
the city of origin trying to obtain some semblance of uniformity, each
contiaininng their own city name.

Yes direct sunlight onto a surface is reflected or absorbed, but walls are
not direct sunlight, if done properly. They're under eaves in mid day. I
even found that our garage interior at mid day was noticeably cooler with
the darker color than it was before. I assume radiation of heat OUTWARDS
became more dominant a heat transfer. What made me think of it was
thinking about how frost used to form on lawns at 38F degrees, night sky
radiation sucked the heat right out, In regions of Sahara many desert
populations wear a preference of dark clothing too. so thought I'd give it
a try. Now, during the transitional seasons, when neither run AIR nor
HEAT; the temperature range has narrowed to around 3 degrees, which is
very reasonable, before it varied 5-6 degrees. Wake up house cool, during
day heats to some temp, with the narrower range we don't even turn on the
Heat Pump System, irritating our utilities suppliers to no end, but saving
the US overall energy costs.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:16:50 -0700, V Ague wrote:

On 07/04/2014 08:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...snip....
There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody
sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.



Somebody slept through science class.

I took him to mean "Nobody sweats in Arizona..." a bit more tongue in
cheek, because we're allowed to carry in this state.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:24:07 -0700, Red Green wrote:

...snip...
Seriously, I've had that poster full size. Earth is less significant than
a grain of sand among all the sand on the planet combined.

It is my understanding that according to scripture the purpose of the sky,
and its complexity, is a way for God to talk to His people, to those who
can read His messages. Not meant for everyone, but makes sense. Certainly
explains why earth is located where it is.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.
If the AC is oversized it is not efficient at removing humidity
because it doesn't run long enough. ANd if it isn't warm enough to
require running the AC, you still have the humidity.

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Slowly getting her trained, after 33 years.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:11:00 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:28 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 18:40:06 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Ceiling exhaust fan !!! when it's 105 outside no way!!! you want me to
suck in outside air at those temps??!!

Let's see at night 81 during day 105, making the average high side of 93,
sounds about right.

I thought it gets kinda cold at night in Az. I've only been there
once. It was quite hot during the day, but we nearly froze sleeping
in the car at night.

Since I painted my house a darker color and take advanatage of 'night time
radiation' the average in our house has dropped substantially. Who would
have thought? dark house = cooler average, light colored house = hotter
average. but true we noticed a difference the moment the house was painted.

In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to
reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the
sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the
collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are
you sure?

I initially thought he was wrong, but consider the two situations. In
the day the house is absorbing sunlight radiated from the Sun at many
thousands of degrees. At night the house is radiating heat into the
void at around -273°C. I'd say the more significant factor is the
daylight situation, but the devil is in the details and I would love to
see some real data on the situation.
Well, our house is pretty well shaded by the tree canopy in the
summer - so the absorption heat gain is not terribly high - and it
generally isn't hot enough that the colour of out roof would be an
appreciable factor in radiating heat over-night, but if /when it gets
really Mugglyhot the darker roof is likely an advantage. Often the
Mugglyhot days co-incide with significant cloudcover around here too.
(Mugglyhot = Muggy/Ugly/Hot weather from hell -used to only get a
couple weeks of it, split up into short periods of a couple days -
lately we've been gettin 2 week stretches several times per summer.)

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 07:56:26 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm
It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan -
so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Fans "cool" by moving air across your skin; the moving air evaporates
moisture from your skin...the more that moves and the faster it moves, the
cooler you will feel. Therefore, blow the air down to feel cooler.

Hot air rises. In winter, blow air up so that the warmer air at the ceiling
will be blown down.
OR simply run the fan blowing down to "suck" the hot air down from
the ceiling. That's what we did in the shop at the dealership - ran
the fans 24 hours a day during the winter - and it kept the floors
dry, the shop comfortable, the gas bill down, and the doors ice-free.
Heat was by natural gas "unit heaters" in the top corners of the one
shop, and the middle/side of the other.

Those fans paid for themselves the first week we installed them!!!!

dadiOH wrote:
"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4myca2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:44:53 -0700, Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
...snip....
I run UP all seasons.... moves the air within putting myself in a
wind.

Yup. Same here.

THANKS, again empirical evidence opposite the 'experts'!

Perhaps it depends upon the climate. I've lived in tropical climates most
of my life. I've used ceiling fans for decades, long before they were
popular or even commonly available.


Unlikely, unless you are 130 years old. In restaurants or even some
upscale southern homes they had such fans back then. Often multiple
units driven by a common motor and belts. They had less than the usual
five blades of modern versions but they sure were ceiling fans.

Even today's style showed up in the stores over 100 years ago:

http://www.vintagefans.com/gallery/c...eilingfan.html

Ours doesn't look much different except that it has five blades.


[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the
warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win,
at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 7/4/2014 10:31 AM, wrote:

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Back in the late 1950's my father was the plant engineer in a printing
plant. Humidity control was more important than temperature for
comfort. They had a huge AC system and if the humidity got too high
they fired up the boilers and added heat. That kept the AC running and
removing moisture.

Does it make sense for you? Depends on your price of comfort. There are
still people that hate the heat yet won't pay to run the AC.

On Friday, July 4, 2014 11:34:11 AM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:



On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:



On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"

wrote:





"RobertMacy" wrote in message

newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico



wrote:





"RobertMacy" wrote in message

newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...

...snip...

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP

or DOWN air in the summer?



it depends if you have air conditioning.



again which way? for what reason? elaborate?



heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it

can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the

warm air up there were it will be less noticed.



But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection

off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win,

at least in small rooms, like a home.



We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way

undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn

on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and

inefficiently dry out the whole house.



It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in

Oregon,

where everyone is a humidity wimp.



Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is

exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a

small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a

much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've

never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm

not in the Pacific northwest.



Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --

it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing

arranged to do it on purpose.



--

Tim Wescott

Have you looked for a condensate drain line coming out of the air handler
and for water coming out of it when the AC is running? It's a virtual
certainty that it's removing water from the air, it's a direct result of
the physics. The humidity is likely still high because with it set at 78F,
unless it's real hot outside, it doesn't run enough to take the humidity
out. A significantly oversized system could result in it cooling off too
quickly, but my bet is 78F is the main issue, especially in Oregon. The
system most likely just isn't running enough.

On 7/3/2014 7:27 PM, RobertMacy wrote:
It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across
the stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan
- so I feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air
straight at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt
hotter in the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air
UP so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in
the summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that
lowers your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED
system] and save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live
on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or
DOWN air in the summer?

Once the air gets mixing, it makes little difference. Down usually lets
you feel the breeze more for some evaporative cooling that you don't
want in the winter. Up is a little more gentle.

The fan eliminates stratification, but in your vase it was detrimental
because the cooler air is where you were but in mixed in the hot air
above. You probably wanted to exhaust the air from the ceiling, bur
just mixed it.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the
warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win,
at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.
Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the
air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.
Cannot be done any other way.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:43:46 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/4/2014 10:31 AM, wrote:

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Back in the late 1950's my father was the plant engineer in a printing
plant. Humidity control was more important than temperature for
comfort. They had a huge AC system and if the humidity got too high
they fired up the boilers and added heat. That kept the AC running and
removing moisture.

Does it make sense for you? Depends on your price of comfort. There are
still people that hate the heat yet won't pay to run the AC.
In industry it is the "cost of doing business".

A ceiling fan doesn't change the actual temperature in the room
(watch your thermometer).

It can certainly change the temperature at the lower part of the room.
Hot air rises and a fan blowing down will push hot air down.

You might see a difference when the fan is first turned on, but once the
air is mixed up it shouldn't change. The fan itself doesn't warm or cool
the air in the room.

I have watched my thermometer (digital thermostat directly beneath the
ceiling fan), and there is no change in temperature whether the fan is
turned on or not. But the gentle breeze still "feels" cooler on a hot day.

It makes a big difference, because with the air blowing up, there is
little direct breeze on you. With it down, there is a direct breeze.

I tried having my fan blow upwards, and could feel a nice breeze along the
walls where the air is being pushed down. But I don't spend a lot of time
up against the walls, and it's still a lot more disperse than directly
under a down blowing fan.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:08:54 -0400, clare wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for?
UP or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so
it can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave
the warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big
win, at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower,
turn on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running
a small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does
a much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually,
I've never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then
I'm not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the
thing arranged to do it on purpose.
Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the
air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.
Cannot be done any other way.

Water does not dribble out of it, and even when it is going the
dehumidifier will remove gallons from this place in a day.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 08:20:30 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif4h8sc2cx0wh@ajm
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:39:33 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

...snip....
Mine doesn't reverse, it always blows down. I don't think the blades
can be switched.

We don't have a/c, so the only time we use the fan is when it's warm
at night. Works great.

AZ housing is noted for these fans.

There's your answer as to why blowing down doesn't cool you. Nobody sweats
in Arizona...no sweat, no evaporation.

But a down-pointing fan does blow the dust off.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2594122...ights-grounded




--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

On 7/4/2014 10:31 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.
If the AC is oversized it is not efficient at removing humidity
because it doesn't run long enough. ANd if it isn't warm enough to
require running the AC, you still have the humidity.

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Slowly getting her trained, after 33 years.

But that is exactly what you *are* doing, running that dehumidifier is
the same as running the big AC unit. I guess it might be more expensive
to run the heat outside rather than keep it in.... but no, the heat is
always run outside by the big unit because of the thermostat.

Clearly the small unit is less efficient, small things usually are. So
why not run the big unit that does a great job of removing the moisture?
It is larger so will need to run much less to lower the humidity. It
is also equipped to remove the water while most room dehumidifiers have
a bucket you need to empty unless you have it tied into a drain.

--

Rick

On 7/4/2014 11:34 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the
warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win,
at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the thing
arranged to do it on purpose.

You are smoking dope on this one. A heat pump *is* an air conditioner.
Run it one way in the summer and use a reversing valve to swap the
coils in the winter to cool the outside and warm the inside.

When running as an AC it condenses water on the inside coils and pumps
that water outside... or it *should*. It is possible (although I've
never heard of doing this) that they are evaporating the water back into
the house like they do in a fridge. But that would be crazy.

BTW, in the winter the outside coils condense moisture too, but as ice.
They need to run in AC mode to melt the ice and must run backup heat
to keep the air warm while doing so.

--

Rick

On 7/4/2014 12:17 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:08:54 -0400, clare wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for?
UP or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so
it can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave
the warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big
win, at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower,
turn on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running
a small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does
a much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually,
I've never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then
I'm not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the
thing arranged to do it on purpose.
Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the
air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.
Cannot be done any other way.

Water does not dribble out of it, and even when it is going the
dehumidifier will remove gallons from this place in a day.

How do you know water doesn't come out of it? Is this a window unit?
They normally drip the water on the outside. If it is a fixed unit they
either run a tube outside or to a drain inside.

--

Rick

On 07/03/2014 06:27 PM, RobertMacy wrote:


[snip]

And, in
the summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that
lowers your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED
system] and save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live
on?]

Running the fan likely has very little (if any) effect on room
temperature. It does help carry heat away from your body, lowering it's
temperature (unless, of course, you're in a room hotter than your body
and need more than a fan).

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or
DOWN air in the summer?

Forget the rules and try both ways. If there's a difference, run it that
way. If no difference don't worry about it.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"The dogma of the divinity of Jesus should have died on the cross, when
the man of Nazareth gave up the ghost." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The
Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays_]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 16:13:56 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

A ceiling fan doesn't change the actual temperature in the room
(watch your thermometer).

It can certainly change the temperature at the lower part of the room.
Hot air rises and a fan blowing down will push hot air down.

You might see a difference when the fan is first turned on, but once the
air is mixed up it shouldn't change. The fan itself doesn't warm or cool
the air in the room.

I have watched my thermometer (digital thermostat directly beneath the
ceiling fan), and there is no change in temperature whether the fan is
turned on or not. But the gentle breeze still "feels" cooler on a hot day.

It makes a big difference, because with the air blowing up, there is
little direct breeze on you. With it down, there is a direct breeze.

I tried having my fan blow upwards, and could feel a nice breeze along the
walls where the air is being pushed down. But I don't spend a lot of time
up against the walls, and it's still a lot more disperse than directly
under a down blowing fan.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com
Well, I can tell you from experience (very recent) it makes a
difference. Big air conditioned room. 33C at the ceiling, 16C at the
floor. Turned on 2 big-assed (no-not the brand name) fans and dropped
the ceiling temp to 24, and raised the floor temperature to 22C within
a few minutes. Did it change the amount of heat in the room? Not at
all. At less than 30 watts each they did not contribute very many
BTUs, but it sure changed the temperature in MOST of the room. The
thermostat was set to 24C. We reset it to 26C after installing the
fans. Will likely get more adjustment over the coming days.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:17:41 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:08:54 -0400, clare wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for?
UP or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so
it can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave
the warm air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection
off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big
win, at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower,
turn on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running
a small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does
a much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually,
I've never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then
I'm not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air --
it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the
thing arranged to do it on purpose.
Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the
air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.
Cannot be done any other way.

Water does not dribble out of it, and even when it is going the
dehumidifier will remove gallons from this place in a day.
Then it must have an "evaporator" like refrigerators have to "boil"
the water back into the house - which sure doesn't make a lot of
sense.

On 7/3/2014 7:27 PM, RobertMacy wrote:
It's HOT, so I thought run the ceiling fan so the cool air comes across the
stone flooring and moves by me to be sucked up into the ceiling fan - so I
feel cooler. Fan is set to move air UP

Earlier I thought run the fan directly onto me gently moving air straight
at me, which is DOWN. But when I did that, after 10-15min felt hotter in
the room.

Just saw one of those home shows, says in winter run the fan to move air UP
so the hot air moves along the ceiling and down your walls. And, in the
summer run your fan DOWN, with NO explanation, except claiming that lowers
your temperature 4-5 degrees [which is impossible in a CLOSED system] and
save up to 40% on air conditioning [what planet do THEY live on?]

So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP or DOWN
air in the summer?

Having the air blowing across you allows the body's normal cooling system
to function -- more air means more cooling. To me that means down in the
summer and up in the winter. Of course if you have too small a fan or run
it too slowly or the air stream isn't actually getting to you (e.g.: air is
coming down in the middle of the room and you are sitting in a far corner)
it isn't going to do much.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:55:56 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 10:31 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico
wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system designed for? UP
or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air down so it
can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might as well leave the warm
air up there were it will be less noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the convection off
your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a breeze is a big win, at
least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower, turn
on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly and
inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by running a
small space heater which would make the AC run more often which does a
much better job of taking the humidity out of the air. Actually, I've
never seen a house with AC that still had high humidity, but then I'm
not in the Pacific northwest.
If the AC is oversized it is not efficient at removing humidity
because it doesn't run long enough. ANd if it isn't warm enough to
require running the AC, you still have the humidity.

Running the heater and the A/C at the same time MIGHT help, by forcing
the AC to run more, but it most certainly is NOT efficient. At the
price of electricity in Ontario, particularly during peak periods, it
doesn't make any sense at all. We run the AC off-peak to drop the
temperature and keep the house closed up on-peak to keep the heat out.
As soon as it cools down outside the wife wants to open the windows -
even when the humidity is 81%+ outside and only 40% inside.

Slowly getting her trained, after 33 years.

But that is exactly what you *are* doing, running that dehumidifier is
the same as running the big AC unit. I guess it might be more expensive
to run the heat outside rather than keep it in.... but no, the heat is
always run outside by the big unit because of the thermostat.

Clearly the small unit is less efficient, small things usually are. So
why not run the big unit that does a great job of removing the moisture?
It is larger so will need to run much less to lower the humidity. It
is also equipped to remove the water while most room dehumidifiers have
a bucket you need to empty unless you have it tied into a drain.
You are not getting my point. The AC, if oversized, moves a lot of
air over the cold colil for a short amount of time while drawing large
amount of current and removing a small amount of humidity.

A smaller A/C moves less air over the cold coil for a longer period of
time, and moves more air to reduce the temperature by the same amount,
using less power to do so. so it removes more moisture for the same
amount of current drawn. The BTU/watt efficiency may very well be the
same - or the big one may even be more efficient - but the efficiency
as a dehumidifier is significantly better on the smaller A/C unit.

If it is not cool enough to require air conditioning, but is too humid
for comfort, running a small de-humidifier is a LOT more efficient
than running the big-assed air conditioner AND the furnace!!!!

Only a total idiot would run the AC and heat at the same time to
reduce the humidity in the house.

As for the de-humidifier producing heat - it only produced a fraction
of it's total power consumption as heat output. The heat coming off
the back of the unit is just heat removed from the air (and moisture)
entering the front of the unit. The latent heat of
vaporization/condensation of the water removed is the only appreciable
"heat" produced. (971 BTU/lb) So for every US gallon of water removed,
aproxemately 8000 BTU.

If it takes 12 hours to remove a gallon, that is 672 btu/hr or less
than 200 watts.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:28:33 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:28:13 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

...snip...
In some areas, white rocks and white roofs are required by code to
reduce air conditioning requirements. It's suppose to reflect the
sunlight instead of absorbing it. Now, you're telling me that the
collective wisdom of the local planning department might be wrong? Are
you sure?

Now you understand why I discount 'experts'

Trust, but verify is how I operate. That usually means figuring out
how things work before making a judgment. I'm not sure I'm ready to
accept your observations quite yet. Color me undecided.

I do not know where the code is located but it is my understanding that in
AZ it is AGAINST the law in every municipality around these desert
communities to paint WHITE, too blinding, just not allowed. Instead, there
are a series of slightly darker/offwhite, desert colors, many named for
the city of origin trying to obtain some semblance of uniformity, each
contiaininng their own city name.

Ok, that makes sense for AZ. However, they still specify a presumably
reflective light color, not a dark black asphalt surface that would
absorb heat.

The US Dept of Energy version:
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/cool-roofs
http://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/facts/CoolCalcEnergy.htm

Yes direct sunlight onto a surface is reflected or absorbed, but walls are
not direct sunlight, if done properly. They're under eaves in mid day. I
even found that our garage interior at mid day was noticeably cooler with
the darker color than it was before. I assume radiation of heat OUTWARDS
became more dominant a heat transfer. What made me think of it was
thinking about how frost used to form on lawns at 38F degrees, night sky
radiation sucked the heat right out,

It's not the radiation into the night sky. It's the lack of clouds to
trap the hot air between the ground and the cloud layer that makes a
clear night sky rather cold.

In regions of Sahara many desert
populations wear a preference of dark clothing too.

Not quite. White is worn outside in the summer, with gray or black in
the winter. While dark clothes do get hotter on the surface, they are
somewhat cooler on the inside. The clothes are worn loosely where the
vertical temperature differential sets up a convective vertical air
flow. The inner layer traps much of the sweat against the skin, which
is cooled by the convective air flow. Much of the sweat remains
trapped against the skin, thus reducing overall water loss. The outer
layers provide air pockets, which offer some insulation value. If the
clothes are worn tightly, it doesn't work. Dark clothes also loose
heat faster than light clothes and are therefore worn indoors.
http://www.traderscity.com/abcg/pic1.htm

so thought I'd give it
a try. Now, during the transitional seasons, when neither run AIR nor
HEAT; the temperature range has narrowed to around 3 degrees, which is
very reasonable, before it varied 5-6 degrees. Wake up house cool, during
day heats to some temp, with the narrower range we don't even turn on the
Heat Pump System, irritating our utilities suppliers to no end, but saving
the US overall energy costs.

I do much the same thing. At night, I leave the house partly open so
that it cools down. In the morning, I close all the doors and windows
to trap in the cold air. At about noon, the house warms up to the
same as outside temperature, so I open with windows.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:08:54 -0400, clare wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:06:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 7/4/2014 12:57 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 22:28:23 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:00:16 -0700, "Pico Rico"

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3so2o2cx0wh@ajm...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:29:47 -0700, Pico Rico

wrote:


"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xif3f3zo2cx0wh@ajm...
...snip...
So my question is WHICH way is this !@#$#@ system
designed for? UP or DOWN air in the summer?

it depends if you have air conditioning.

again which way? for what reason? elaborate?

heat rises. If you have ac, you want to push the warm air
down so it can become ac'd. If you don't have ac, you might
as well leave the warm air up there were it will be less
noticed.

But you can cool to a higher temperature if you help the
convection off your skin. Add in evaporative cooling and a
breeze is a big win, at least in small rooms, like a home.

We have air conditioning which keeps the house at 78, and a way
undersized room dehumidifier which we set up in the master shower,
turn on the circulating fan in the furnace, and basically slowly
and inefficiently dry out the whole house.

It makes a huge huge difference how hot it feels -- and we're in
Oregon,
where everyone is a humidity wimp.

Do you realize the dehumidifier is just an AC unit where the heat is
exhausted back into the room? You could do the same thing by
running a small space heater which would make the AC run more often
which does a much better job of taking the humidity out of the air.
Actually, I've never seen a house with AC that still had high
humidity, but then I'm not in the Pacific northwest.

Our AC is a heat pump which does not remove the moisture from the air
-- it just cools it. Don't ask me how -- for all I know they have the
thing arranged to do it on purpose.
Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the
air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out.
Cannot be done any other way.

Water does not dribble out of it, and even when it is going the
dehumidifier will remove gallons from this place in a day.

Water doesn't dribble out of it because there is a drain line from the air
handler to the outside. It doesn't remove ALL the water vapor...how much
depends upon air temperature and humidity.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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