My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:00:45 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:
My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.



I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:



a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)



b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)



d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000



d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.



I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?



Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.

You don't describe your current heating system and that knowledge may affect people's recommendations.

I'm guessing that your first 3 options are variations on mini-splits that do not require duct work. I'd go with the last option. While doing the duct work is initially an additional cost it will never have to be done again.

Also that is a fairly large system for that many square feet. It makes me want to guess there are possibly a lot of single pane windows and/or poor insulation. Anything you can do to beef up the house insulation or windows will be well invested too.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.

I'm not an HVAC person, but a "3.5 ton" unit sounds awful big for the
size of your house. My house is a little larger than yours and I only
have a 2 ton (?) unit.

On 06/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.



My house is 115 years old and about 1900 sq ft.

I am going to replace my furnace and get central air . Though I am now
getting by ok cooling a few rooms with window units, the only thing than
makes sense if I'm going to re-do this is to get central air.


I am having my 100amp service upgraded to 200 amps in about three weeks.

Since the summer here has been very cool I may not bother to get furnace
and central air until next year



The 3.5 ton unit sounds about right and may really be needed for any
days where the temps go up around 100 F

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:20:36 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:00:45 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.







I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:







a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)







b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)







d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000







d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.







I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?







Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.



You don't describe your current heating system and that knowledge may affect people's recommendations.



I'm guessing that your first 3 options are variations on mini-splits that do not require duct work. I'd go with the last option. While doing the duct work is initially an additional cost it will never have to be done again.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:57:34 PM UTC-4, philo* wrote:
On 06/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.



I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:



a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)



b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)



d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000



d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.



I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?



Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.







My house is 115 years old and about 1900 sq ft.



I am going to replace my furnace and get central air . Though I am now

getting by ok cooling a few rooms with window units, the only thing than

makes sense if I'm going to re-do this is to get central air.





I am having my 100amp service upgraded to 200 amps in about three weeks.



Since the summer here has been very cool I may not bother to get furnace

and central air until next year







The 3.5 ton unit sounds about right and may really be needed for any

days where the temps go up around 100 F

I did the electrical upgrade (to 200A) last spring. We had MANY days (weeks on end) around 100°F kast summer, and it's 90°F right now.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:20:36 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:00:45 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.







I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:







a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)







b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)







d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000







d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.







I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?







Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.



You don't describe your current heating system and that knowledge may affect people's recommendations.



+1

If I had to guess, it's probably hot water. I'd also be interested in why
they want to put the AC in the attic. That would be my last choice. If
a basement is avaialable and it can go there, that would be my first choice.
Attic makes doing the upstairs easy, but then the downstairs is harder.
With a basement, it's the opposite. I'm not a big fan of putting the AC
in the attic if it can be avoided. The attic is 115, the basement is 60.
I'd much rather be routing air around the basement, than in the attic.
They typically use flex duct in the attic, which has couple inches of
insulation. Also, if the AC leaks condensate water, in the basement it's
usual a minor issue. Not saying I would never put it in the attic, if
it reduces costs substantially, is the only way, etc, then I would
probably do it.

I'd get at least one more quote on doing the whole house.




I'm guessing that your first 3 options are variations on mini-splits that do not require duct work. I'd go with the last option. While doing the duct work is initially an additional cost it will never have to be done again.



I tend to agree. We also don't know the priorities/values here, the
solutions range from doing just the first floor to the whole house.
Without knowing how important doing all versus just the first floor is,
not much I can add.







Also that is a fairly large system for that many square feet. It makes me want to guess there are possibly a lot of single pane windows and/or poor insulation. Anything you can do to beef up the house insulation or windows will be well invested too.

+1

Or it could be the installers don't know what they are doing, too.
On first glance, it would seem that oversizing is OK. It's better to
be somewhat oversized than under for sure, but if it's oversized too
much then you run into problems. Main one is that it will have so
much capacity it will cool off the house quickly, before the AC has
time to take out the humidity. That's also an advantage of two stage
AC, it can run at the lower output when not that much cooling is
required, better controlling humidity. Certainly not essential, but
I think it can add to comfort.

Just some things to think about.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 1:03:36 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:20:36 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:00:45 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:



My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.















I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:















a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)















b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)















d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000















d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.















I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?















Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.







You don't describe your current heating system and that knowledge may affect people's recommendations.







+1



If I had to guess, it's probably hot water. I'd also be interested in why

they want to put the AC in the attic. That would be my last choice. If

a basement is avaialable and it can go there, that would be my first choice.

Attic makes doing the upstairs easy, but then the downstairs is harder.

With a basement, it's the opposite. I'm not a big fan of putting the AC

in the attic if it can be avoided. The attic is 115, the basement is 60.

I'd much rather be routing air around the basement, than in the attic.

They typically use flex duct in the attic, which has couple inches of

insulation. Also, if the AC leaks condensate water, in the basement it's

usual a minor issue. Not saying I would never put it in the attic, if

it reduces costs substantially, is the only way, etc, then I would

probably do it.



I'd get at least one more quote on doing the whole house.









I'm guessing that your first 3 options are variations on mini-splits that do not require duct work. I'd go with the last option. While doing the duct work is initially an additional cost it will never have to be done again.







I tend to agree. We also don't know the priorities/values here, the

solutions range from doing just the first floor to the whole house.

Without knowing how important doing all versus just the first floor is,

not much I can add.















Also that is a fairly large system for that many square feet. It makes me want to guess there are possibly a lot of single pane windows and/or poor insulation. Anything you can do to beef up the house insulation or windows will be well invested too.



+1



Or it could be the installers don't know what they are doing, too.

On first glance, it would seem that oversizing is OK. It's better to

be somewhat oversized than under for sure, but if it's oversized too

much then you run into problems. Main one is that it will have so

much capacity it will cool off the house quickly, before the AC has

time to take out the humidity. That's also an advantage of two stage

AC, it can run at the lower output when not that much cooling is

required, better controlling humidity. Certainly not essential, but

I think it can add to comfort.



Just some things to think about.

Correct about the mini split not require any ducting. The only inside work would be getting the pipes through one closet to an adjoining closet. This would be done at ceiling level, so would be, for all intents, invisible.

The basement isn't a good option for two reasons:

1) I use that space for my workshop, and it already has a low ceiling. Ductwork would make it unusable for anything else - I'm short but not THAT short.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 1:34:25 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 1:03:36 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:20:36 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:



On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:00:45 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:







My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.































I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:































a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)































b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)































d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000































d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.































I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?































Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.















You don't describe your current heating system and that knowledge may affect people's recommendations.















+1







If I had to guess, it's probably hot water. I'd also be interested in why



they want to put the AC in the attic. That would be my last choice. If



a basement is avaialable and it can go there, that would be my first choice.



Attic makes doing the upstairs easy, but then the downstairs is harder.



With a basement, it's the opposite. I'm not a big fan of putting the AC



in the attic if it can be avoided. The attic is 115, the basement is 60.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 10:03:06 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

The 3.5 ton unit sounds about right and may really be needed for any

days where the temps go up around 100 F

I did the electrical upgrade (to 200A) last spring. We had MANY days (weeks on end) around 100°F kast summer, and it's 90°F right now.

I'm in the desert so we don't have the humidity that you have. We have
already passed 100°F. Summers can reach 117°F for days on end. 90°F
at midnight is common. If we had the high humidity like back east it
would be terrible. Once 110°F is reached we just say "it's hot"

On 6/18/2014 9:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.

I think you'll regret NOT doing the whole house.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 4:15:38 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 6/18/2014 9:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.



I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:



a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)



b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)



d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000



d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.



I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?



Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.



I think you'll regret NOT doing the whole house.

I think so, too. But I'm concerned about the cost of operation. The guy yesterday said that with the mini split, you could let the house heat up quite a bit, turn it on and the room would be cool in a half hour or so. With the whole house deal, he said that if you let the house heat up, it could take hours to cool off the house to 74 or so. So he recommends that you set the thermostat to 80 when going out. So, that gets me thinking about energy usage.

In reality, I work at home, so I'm here most of the day, but only in one or two rooms.

On 6/18/2014 1:00 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:20:36 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

Also that is a fairly large system for that many square feet.
It makes me want to guess there are possibly a lot of single pane
windows and/or poor insulation. Anything you can do to beef up
the house insulation or windows will be well invested too.

There are single pane windows with storms. The insulation in
most rooms is virtually non-existent and beefing that up would
be a huge job. Previous owners had done some sort of foam
injected through drill holes (outside). In the few outside walls
I have opened for various repairs, you can see that the foam has
deteriorated to the point that it's pretty much gone. replacing
it with another foam or blown cellulose would be tough, as
there's enough of the old stuff there that it would impede
the flow of new stuff. There is loose-fill in the attic floor,
and I've thought about beefing that up either by laying fiber-
glass on top or pulling it all out and doing foam. But after
all that, the house will still be plenty hot in the summer.

As far as heat goes, it's gas-fired steam. I hate it, but
it's what I have.


From what I know, gas fired steam is low percent
efficiency. Wastes a heck of a lot of heat up the
chimney. I'd be tempted to take a closer look at
the attic AC unit, and maybe get a high efficiency
furnace up there also. At night you might be able
to turn down the steam, and use 90% natural gas heat.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 5:29:59 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 6/18/2014 1:00 PM, rangerssuck wrote:

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:20:36 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:



Also that is a fairly large system for that many square feet.

It makes me want to guess there are possibly a lot of single pane

windows and/or poor insulation. Anything you can do to beef up

the house insulation or windows will be well invested too.



There are single pane windows with storms. The insulation in

most rooms is virtually non-existent and beefing that up would

be a huge job. Previous owners had done some sort of foam

injected through drill holes (outside). In the few outside walls

I have opened for various repairs, you can see that the foam has

deteriorated to the point that it's pretty much gone. replacing

it with another foam or blown cellulose would be tough, as

there's enough of the old stuff there that it would impede

the flow of new stuff. There is loose-fill in the attic floor,

and I've thought about beefing that up either by laying fiber-

glass on top or pulling it all out and doing foam. But after

all that, the house will still be plenty hot in the summer.



As far as heat goes, it's gas-fired steam. I hate it, but

it's what I have.





From what I know, gas fired steam is low percent

efficiency. Wastes a heck of a lot of heat up the

chimney. I'd be tempted to take a closer look at

the attic AC unit, and maybe get a high efficiency

furnace up there also. At night you might be able

to turn down the steam, and use 90% natural gas heat.


If he puts in a furnace too, IDK why he would turn down
the steam. Just turn it off. I agree if he goes with the
whole house AC approach, he should look at a combo furnace/AC,
even more so if the existing heat eqpt is old.
The equipment cost difference to add heat isn't much, but
running the gas to the attic would add a considerable amount too.

On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 4:39:03 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 4:15:38 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:

On 6/18/2014 9:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:



My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.







I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:







a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)







b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)







d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000







d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.







I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?







Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.







I think you'll regret NOT doing the whole house.



I think so, too. But I'm concerned about the cost of operation. The guy yesterday said that with the mini split, you could let the house heat up quite a bit, turn it on and the room would be cool in a half hour or so. With the whole house deal, he said that if you let the house heat up, it could take hours to cool off the house to 74 or so. So he recommends that you set the thermostat to 80 when going out. So, that gets me thinking about energy usage.



In reality, I work at home, so I'm here most of the day, but only in one or two rooms.

I don't think there isn't anything magic about one system cooling the house faster than the other. And I would think 3.5 tons in a 1500 sq ft house
is going to cool it off pretty quickly, unless it's poorly insulated, has
a lot of sun exposure through windows, etc. I can't imagine it taking hours.
And just an hour can already make a big difference in the perceived temp,
because it takes out the humidity. Sometimes I put on my system because
it's 75, but it's too humid. In just 20 mins or so, you can feel a difference
in the humidity.

There is a difference though in energy usage if you just cool one or two
rooms with a mini-split or cool the whole house.

The good news is that these systems are a lot more efficient than they
were 20 years ago. A 14 SEER system on a 1500 sq ft house shouldn't
cost that much to run. You can keep the house at 76, and with the
reduction in humidity, I find it quite comfortable. I think the difference
in electric cost isn't going to be that great, and if you make a decision
based on that, it would be a mistake. Plus in NJ, it's only going to
be used substantially for 3 months of the year.

BTW, in comparing those systems capacities, one ton is 12K BTUs.

On 6/18/2014 1:39 PM, rangerssuck wrote:


I think you'll regret NOT doing the whole house.

I think so, too. But I'm concerned about the cost of operation. The guy yesterday said that with the mini split,

you could let the house heat up quite a bit, turn it on and the room
would be cool in a half hour or so.

With the whole house deal, he said that if you let the house heat up, it
could take hours to cool off the house

to 74 or so. So he recommends that you set the thermostat to 80 when
going out. So, that gets me thinking about energy usage.

In reality, I work at home, so I'm here most of the day, but only in one or two rooms.


Didn't say it couldn't be a split system...just that you'll probably
regret not being able to cool some other room in the future if you don't
allow for it. And you can still have some combination of window
units for less-used areas.

I had the house weatherized back when stimulus money was available.

The thermal time constant of the house is longer than the time I'm away.
Takes almost as much energy to reheat/cool the house as I saved while
away. And that's MEASURED info, not some random guess.

Insulation is your friend.

On 6/18/2014 4:39 PM, rangerssuck wrote:

I think you'll regret NOT doing the whole house.

I think so, too. But I'm concerned about the cost
of operation. The guy yesterday said that with the
mini split, you could let the house heat up quite a
bit, turn it on and the room would be cool in a half
hour or so. With the whole house deal, he said that
if you let the house heat up, it could take hours to
cool off the house to 74 or so. So he recommends that
you set the thermostat to 80 when going out. So, that
gets me thinking about energy usage.

In reality, I work at home, so I'm here most of the
day, but only in one or two rooms.


I can see advantage to cooling two rooms -- you don't
get the heat gain through the rest of the house. Might
be cheaper in the long run.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/18/2014 6:07 PM, trader_4 wrote:
If he puts in a furnace too, IDK why he would turn down
the steam. Just turn it off. I agree if he goes with the
whole house AC approach, he should look at a combo furnace/AC,
even more so if the existing heat eqpt is old.
The equipment cost difference to add heat isn't much, but
running the gas to the attic would add a considerable amount too.


It may be possible to run through the floor and
ceiling of a closet, and just leave the black iron
in there. Yes, some real advantages to put in heat
also. I did an AC hook up a couple years ago, the
gas furnace was cheaper than an air handler, so
that's what they used.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/18/2014 6:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
The good news is that these systems are a lot more efficient than they
were 20 years ago. A 14 SEER system on a 1500 sq ft house shouldn't
cost that much to run. You can keep the house at 76, and with the
reduction in humidity, I find it quite comfortable. I think the difference
in electric cost isn't going to be that great, and if you make a decision
based on that, it would be a mistake. Plus in NJ, it's only going to
be used substantially for 3 months of the year.

BTW, in comparing those systems capacities, one ton is 12K BTUs.


And, here is your chance to tell us all what "one ton"
is.....

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT),
rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.


You might consider improving the insulation factor
on the total house as the first step. If this
house has never had proper insulation the lack of
insulation may be a major factor in comfort.

You might also wish to consider mounting the air
conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if
not prevent theft of the equipment. One other
positive result from roof mount is the water
runoff could be spread across the roof to help
cool the house through evaporation.

You might also wish to consider just cooling the
upper level to start. Cool drops/ heat rises.

Or just give up air conditioning all together and
learn how to best vent the existing window system
for the most comfort.

Vandy Terre wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT),
rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.


You might consider improving the insulation factor
on the total house as the first step. If this
house has never had proper insulation the lack of
insulation may be a major factor in comfort.

You might also wish to consider mounting the air
conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if
not prevent theft of the equipment. One other
positive result from roof mount is the water
runoff could be spread across the roof to help
cool the house through evaporation.

You might also wish to consider just cooling the
upper level to start. Cool drops/ heat rises.

Or just give up air conditioning all together and
learn how to best vent the existing window system
for the most comfort.

Hi,
+1. W/O taking care of windows, insulation, there is no sense in
wasting energy running a/c. I were in that situation a/c is priority
no. 2.

On 6/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom
colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside.
I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house
cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they
have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:


Did any/all of them run a Manual J calc in order to properly size the
unit to your needs? Without that, all they're doing is guessing - and
guessing can cost you money, since when they guesstimate they tend to
oversize to play it safe.
If none of them ran a Manual J, go out and get some more bids, and
when the salespeople show up, tell them you want to watch them perform
the Manual J calc.

I wouldn't assume that those walls can't have additional insulation
blown in. There are companies that do that routinely. I had my walls
topped off and cellulose insulation blown on top of my fiberglass
batts in the attic. It made a world of difference.

Single pane windows with storms can be nearly as energy efficient as
modern windows *if* they are in good condition (no cracked glass,
putty intact and in good shape, wood frame in good shape,
weatherstripping in good shape). So if you had to decide where to
budget for energy savings, I'd go with adding more insulation.

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT),

rangerssuck wrote:



My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.



I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:



a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)



b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)



d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000



d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.



I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?



Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.





You might consider improving the insulation factor

on the total house as the first step. If this

house has never had proper insulation the lack of

insulation may be a major factor in comfort.



You might also wish to consider mounting the air

conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if

not prevent theft of the equipment. One other

positive result from roof mount is the water

runoff could be spread across the roof to help

cool the house through evaporation.



Now we've truly entered the twilight zone. I've seen lots
of single family houses in NJ and have not yet seen one with
the AC mounted on the roof. And he did say that it's a 90 year old
colonial. See many colonials with flat roofs? The idea that if
you mount the eqpt on the roof, you
could then use the condensate to help cool the roof is totally nuts.
First, the condensate doesn't come out of the compressor, it comes
out of the evaporator, mounted on the furnace. Are you suggesting
the furnace go on the roof? Getting the water to the roof doesn't require
mounting the eqpt there, only running a small hose from the furnace
there. But then that's just as dumb, because the small amount of condensate isn't going to do anything measurable, significant, nada, in terms of
cooling a roof. It;s like a flea farting in the breeze.




You might also wish to consider just cooling the

upper level to start. Cool drops/ heat rises.



Or just give up air conditioning all together and

learn how to best vent the existing window system

for the most comfort.

Sounds like you've been reading hippie weekly too much.

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:22:15 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 6/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom

colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside.

I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house

cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.



I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they

have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:





Did any/all of them run a Manual J calc in order to properly size the

unit to your needs? Without that, all they're doing is guessing - and

guessing can cost you money, since when they guesstimate they tend to

oversize to play it safe.

If none of them ran a Manual J, go out and get some more bids, and

when the salespeople show up, tell them you want to watch them perform

the Manual J calc.




I live in NJ and I had 5 companies come out to quote on my system.
They ranged from one from HD, a local small company that has been around
for 40 years, to a larger regional company with the fancy new trucks.
Not one of them did the calculation and I can understand why. If it was
your business would you spend the time to do a full Manual J, which
is very involved and will take a lot of time, knowing
that with most customers you don't wind up winning the deal? I'm
not saying that isn't the best way to determine the right solution,
only that I don't see how it could work with todays costs of doing
business. In my case, I didn't care because I had the performance
of the existing eqpt to go by, which IMO is better than a paper calculation.

It seems reasonable to me to quote it with a couple levels of
eqpt and then do the manual J when the customer is actually ready
to do the deal. The cost diff in the eqpt isn't that much anyway.
That's how I would do it and it's kind of how at least some of the
companies did it. They never did bring up a Manual J though.

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:30:59 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:22:15 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 6/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:



My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom



colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside.



I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house



cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.







I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they



have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:











Did any/all of them run a Manual J calc in order to properly size the



unit to your needs? Without that, all they're doing is guessing - and



guessing can cost you money, since when they guesstimate they tend to



oversize to play it safe.



If none of them ran a Manual J, go out and get some more bids, and



when the salespeople show up, tell them you want to watch them perform



the Manual J calc.









I live in NJ and I had 5 companies come out to quote on my system.

They ranged from one from HD, a local small company that has been around

for 40 years, to a larger regional company with the fancy new trucks.

Not one of them did the calculation and I can understand why. If it was

your business would you spend the time to do a full Manual J, which

is very involved and will take a lot of time, knowing

that with most customers you don't wind up winning the deal? I'm

not saying that isn't the best way to determine the right solution,

only that I don't see how it could work with todays costs of doing

business. In my case, I didn't care because I had the performance

of the existing eqpt to go by, which IMO is better than a paper calculation.



It seems reasonable to me to quote it with a couple levels of

eqpt and then do the manual J when the customer is actually ready

to do the deal. The cost diff in the eqpt isn't that much anyway.

That's how I would do it and it's kind of how at least some of the

companies did it. They never did bring up a Manual J though.

Agreed, especially since one of the companies has done three houses on my block (similare age and construction), and the other (which suggested almost exactly the same capacities) has been in business almost 50 years about two miles from me and has doubtless done many, many houses similar to mine. This stuff doesn't come in THAT many different sizes, does it?

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:29:42 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:30:59 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:22:15 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:



On 6/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:







My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom







colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside.







I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house







cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.















I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they







have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:























Did any/all of them run a Manual J calc in order to properly size the







unit to your needs? Without that, all they're doing is guessing - and







guessing can cost you money, since when they guesstimate they tend to







oversize to play it safe.







If none of them ran a Manual J, go out and get some more bids, and







when the salespeople show up, tell them you want to watch them perform







the Manual J calc.



















I live in NJ and I had 5 companies come out to quote on my system.



They ranged from one from HD, a local small company that has been around



for 40 years, to a larger regional company with the fancy new trucks.



Not one of them did the calculation and I can understand why. If it was



your business would you spend the time to do a full Manual J, which



is very involved and will take a lot of time, knowing



that with most customers you don't wind up winning the deal? I'm



not saying that isn't the best way to determine the right solution,



only that I don't see how it could work with todays costs of doing



business. In my case, I didn't care because I had the performance



of the existing eqpt to go by, which IMO is better than a paper calculation.







It seems reasonable to me to quote it with a couple levels of



eqpt and then do the manual J when the customer is actually ready



to do the deal. The cost diff in the eqpt isn't that much anyway.



That's how I would do it and it's kind of how at least some of the



companies did it. They never did bring up a Manual J though.



Agreed, especially since one of the companies has done three houses on my block (similare age and construction), and the other (which suggested almost exactly the same capacities) has been in business almost 50 years about two miles from me and has doubtless done many, many houses similar to mine. This stuff doesn't come in THAT many different sizes, does it?

Well, actually it does. Furnace could be 40K BTU up to
120K. AC, 1.5 tons up to 5 tons. You do want it right
size, erring on the side of larger is obviously better.
But like you say, I think guys that have been in business
for 20 years, have done many similar houses, go by experience
about what size it should be. And they err on the side of
larger. They probably do that even if they did a manual J.
You put a 60K btu furnace in a house that needs 90K and
you may get a call in Jan.

It's just that this Manual J thing is thrown out all the
time, but I'll bet almost no contractor does it just to give
a quote. It would certainly drive their cost of doing quotes
through the roof. While the competitor salesman does X
quotes a day, they do 1/3 X.

On 6/19/2014 6:20 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:

You might also wish to consider mounting the air
conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if
not prevent theft of the equipment. One other
positive result from roof mount is the water
runoff could be spread across the roof to help
cool the house through evaporation.



Now we've truly entered the twilight zone. I've seen lots
of single family houses in NJ and have not yet seen one with
the AC mounted on the roof. And he did say that it's a 90 year old
colonial. See many colonials with flat roofs? The idea that if
you mount the eqpt on the roof, you
could then use the condensate to help cool the roof is totally nuts.
First, the condensate doesn't come out of the compressor, it comes
out of the evaporator, mounted on the furnace. Are you suggesting
the furnace go on the roof? Getting the water to the roof doesn't require
mounting the eqpt there, only running a small hose from the furnace
there. But then that's just as dumb, because the small amount of condensate isn't going to do anything measurable, significant, nada, in terms of
cooling a roof. It;s like a flea farting in the breeze.


Not sure about NJ, but in NYS, the humidity is
usually high enough that a dribble of condensate
won't provide much cooling at all. Roof and
attic typically have insulation, so even if
the water evaporated (unlikely) it will be on
the other side of R-## insulation.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/19/2014 6:20 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:


Or just give up air conditioning all together and
learn how to best vent the existing window system
for the most comfort.

Sounds like you've been reading hippie weekly too much.


When Vandy and Al Gore get in touch with their
inner person, and give up bathing and laundry,
it's a real sixties experience.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/19/2014 10:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

You do want it right
size, erring on the side of larger is obviously better.
But like you say, I think guys that have been in business
for 20 years, have done many similar houses, go by experience
about what size it should be. And they err on the side of
larger. They probably do that even if they did a manual J.
You put a 60K btu furnace in a house that needs 90K and
you may get a call in Jan.


While it's true that a very under sized furnace
or AC will provide poor service, grossly over
sized will also be problems. Oversized AC won't
remove hudmidity properly, and will leave the
cold and clammy feel. Over sized furnace won't
run long enough to circulate the air.

When I replaced my own furnace, I had a choice,
the 80K came out. I could replace with 70K or
90K, so I went smaller. Glad I did. The floor
transition had been a real poor fit, and I tightened
that up. The 70K has heated well, even in some
really bone numbing cold weather.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/19/2014 10:32 PM, trader_4 improperly full quoted:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:29:42 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:30:59 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:22:15 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:



On 6/18/2014 11:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:







My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom







colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside.







I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house







cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.















I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they







have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:























Did any/all of them run a Manual J calc in order to properly size the







unit to your needs? Without that, all they're doing is guessing - and







guessing can cost you money, since when they guesstimate they tend to







oversize to play it safe.







If none of them ran a Manual J, go out and get some more bids, and







when the salespeople show up, tell them you want to watch them perform







the Manual J calc.



















I live in NJ and I had 5 companies come out to quote on my system.



They ranged from one from HD, a local small company that has been around



for 40 years, to a larger regional company with the fancy new trucks.



Not one of them did the calculation and I can understand why. If it was



your business would you spend the time to do a full Manual J, which



is very involved and will take a lot of time, knowing



that with most customers you don't wind up winning the deal? I'm



not saying that isn't the best way to determine the right solution,



only that I don't see how it could work with todays costs of doing



business. In my case, I didn't care because I had the performance



of the existing eqpt to go by, which IMO is better than a paper calculation.







It seems reasonable to me to quote it with a couple levels of



eqpt and then do the manual J when the customer is actually ready



to do the deal. The cost diff in the eqpt isn't that much anyway.



That's how I would do it and it's kind of how at least some of the



companies did it. They never did bring up a Manual J though.



Agreed, especially since one of the companies has done three houses on my block (similare age and construction), and the other (which suggested almost exactly the same capacities) has been in business almost 50 years about two miles from me and has doubtless done many, many houses similar to mine. This stuff doesn't come in THAT many different sizes, does it?

Well, actually it does. Furnace could be 40K BTU up to
120K. AC, 1.5 tons up to 5 tons. You do want it right
size, erring on the side of larger is obviously better.
But like you say, I think guys that have been in business
for 20 years, have done many similar houses, go by experience
about what size it should be. And they err on the side of
larger. They probably do that even if they did a manual J.
You put a 60K btu furnace in a house that needs 90K and
you may get a call in Jan.

It's just that this Manual J thing is thrown out all the
time, but I'll bet almost no contractor does it just to give
a quote. It would certainly drive their cost of doing quotes
through the roof. While the competitor salesman does X
quotes a day, they do 1/3 X.

You might have trimmed some of these 278 lines of text. You
didn't need them all. Thank you.



--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, June 20, 2014 8:26:55 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 6/19/2014 6:20 PM, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:



You might also wish to consider mounting the air

conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if

not prevent theft of the equipment. One other

positive result from roof mount is the water

runoff could be spread across the roof to help

cool the house through evaporation.







Now we've truly entered the twilight zone. I've seen lots

of single family houses in NJ and have not yet seen one with

the AC mounted on the roof. And he did say that it's a 90 year old

colonial. See many colonials with flat roofs? The idea that if

you mount the eqpt on the roof, you

could then use the condensate to help cool the roof is totally nuts.

First, the condensate doesn't come out of the compressor, it comes

out of the evaporator, mounted on the furnace. Are you suggesting

the furnace go on the roof? Getting the water to the roof doesn't require

mounting the eqpt there, only running a small hose from the furnace

there. But then that's just as dumb, because the small amount of condensate isn't going to do anything measurable, significant, nada, in terms of

cooling a roof. It;s like a flea farting in the breeze.





Not sure about NJ, but in NYS, the humidity is

usually high enough that a dribble of condensate

won't provide much cooling at all. Roof and

attic typically have insulation, so even if

the water evaporated (unlikely) it will be on

the other side of R-## insulation.



Not that it really matters, but why wouldn't AC condensate
evaporate on a hot roof? Roofs
get so hot in full sun you can't hold your hand on them. It's
not that it won't evaporate, it's that it's a small amount
of water so it's effect on cooling the house is negligible.

On 6/20/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Not that it really matters, but why wouldn't AC condensate
evaporate on a hot roof? Roofs
get so hot in full sun you can't hold your hand on them. It's
not that it won't evaporate, it's that it's a small amount
of water so it's effect on cooling the house is negligible.


Summer in western NY tends to be very humid.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/18/2014 9:00 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.

Adding ducts is the best option.

Get some more bids for the option with ducts but $7500 is probably not
out of line since duct work is time-consuming.

Having multiple units is the wrong way to do this. You'll be maintaining
multiple units and spending more on electricity. If you ever sell the
house, a kludge system is not going to add any value while proper duct
work will be viewed as a positive.

Having the evaporator and blower in the attic kind of sucks though. Is
there no closet you could sacrifice for this? No room in the garage or
utility room?

On 6/18/2014 9:26 AM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.

I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:

a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)

b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)

d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000

d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.

I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?

Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.

I'm not an HVAC person, but a "3.5 ton" unit sounds awful big for the
size of your house. My house is a little larger than yours and I only
have a 2 ton (?) unit.

That's true. An over-size unit is not a good thing. Should be 2.5 ton or so.

On 6/18/2014 1:39 PM, rangerssuck wrote:

snip

I think so, too. But I'm concerned about the cost of operation. The guy yesterday said that with the mini split, you could let the house heat up quite a bit, turn it on and the room would be cool in a half hour or so. With the whole house deal, he said that if you let the house heat up, it could take hours to cool off the house to 74 or so. So he recommends that you set the thermostat to 80 when going out. So, that gets me thinking about energy usage.

In reality, I work at home, so I'm here most of the day, but only in one or two rooms.

Does a two-stage unit allow you to close vents in unused rooms and run
the unit at the lower speed?

When I was putting AC in a rental unit earlier this year one installer
said that he could modify the venting so the user could select only the
upstairs vents to receive cooling if this was desired (since upstairs
got very hot while downstairs didn't). Another installer insisted that
constricting the air-flow like this would damage the system.

If you spend time in only a couple of rooms during the day then you
should inquire about what's required if you want to close off vents in
unused rooms. You also would have to have the thermostat in the room
that is being cooled. There are automatic vents or you can close vents
manually https://www.theactivent.com/about.html.

You probably want to get a "connected" thermostat that you can program
and control on-line. These cost about $100 versus about $40 for a
regular thermostat. The ability to turn on the A/C remotely, a half hour
before you get home, is better than relying on a pre-programmed schedule.

On Friday, June 20, 2014 9:46:18 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 6/20/2014 9:11 AM, trader_4 wrote:



Not that it really matters, but why wouldn't AC condensate

evaporate on a hot roof? Roofs

get so hot in full sun you can't hold your hand on them. It's

not that it won't evaporate, it's that it's a small amount

of water so it's effect on cooling the house is negligible.





Summer in western NY tends to be very humid.



I'd like to see a summer day in NY where it's so humid
that condensate water wouldn't evaporate on a hot roof.
You have some very strange physics in your universe.

On 6/20/2014 1:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, June 20, 2014 9:46:18 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Summer in western NY tends to be very humid.



I'd like to see a summer day in NY where it's so humid
that condensate water wouldn't evaporate on a hot roof.
You have some very strange physics in your universe.


There are plenty of days when the attic space AC
at my church drain onto the flat roof. The condensate
runs off the flat black roof, and drips from the
roof to the ground.
Nah-noo, Nah-noo.
http://ubik.blog.deejay.it/files/pho...mork_800_1.jpg

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:28:10 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 6/19/2014 6:20 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:


Or just give up air conditioning all together and
learn how to best vent the existing window system
for the most comfort.

Sounds like you've been reading hippie weekly too much.


When Vandy and Al Gore get in touch with their
inner person, and give up bathing and laundry,
it's a real sixties experience.

Thank you so much for you kind post. Try again
when you learn about Jesus.

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT),

rangerssuck wrote:



My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.



I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:



a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)



b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)



d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000



d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.



I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?



Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.





You might consider improving the insulation factor

on the total house as the first step. If this

house has never had proper insulation the lack of

insulation may be a major factor in comfort.



You might also wish to consider mounting the air

conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if

not prevent theft of the equipment. One other

positive result from roof mount is the water

runoff could be spread across the roof to help

cool the house through evaporation.



You might also wish to consider just cooling the

upper level to start. Cool drops/ heat rises.



Or just give up air conditioning all together and

learn how to best vent the existing window system

for the most comfort.

Insulation is not happening for reasons I've stated. It's simply not practical, except in the attic.

In my neighborhood, I think about the last thing anyone is worried about is theft of their AC compressor. I can just imagine to look i'd get from the building permit guy if I told him I wanted to mount the unit on my roof. Suffice it to say that it's simply not happening.

Dribbling condensate on the roof will not provide any meaningful cooling. Of course it will do something, but if I thought for a second that it would do anything significant, I'd collect rainwater and pump it back up to the roof.

Same goes for "learn how to best vent the existing window system for the most comfort." At 100°F and 90% humidity, this is not any sort of ventilation problem. It's a refrigeration problem.

On Saturday, June 21, 2014 5:54:21 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:15:44 PM UTC-4, Vandy Terre wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT),



rangerssuck wrote:







My house is about 90 years old, a ~1500 sq foot three bedroom colonial.. I'm in Northern NJ, and it's getting pretty hot outside. I currently have not enough window units to keep the whole house cool, and I'm thinking it's time to do something.







I've had three AC people in to make their sales pitch. what they have offered (and all of the pretty similar in price is:







a)Split system to just do the first floor (18000 BTU). Outside unit in back yard under the window that now has the big AC, inside unit on living room wall. A couple of fans as needed. ~$3500 (minus $500 state rebate)







b) Same as A, but with a second inside unit in the ONE bedroom (30,000 BTU). ~$5500 (no rebate)







d) Same as C but with a third inside unit to hit a second bedroom (40,000 BTU). $8000







d) Central system (3.5 ton). Outside unit in same place, inside unit in attic, ductwork in 3 upstairs closets, vent in EVERY room first & second floor, return in upstairs hall. ~$7500. 1 year parts & labor, 10 years parts warranty.







I'm at a loss as to which is the right thing to do. Assuming I can afford any of these (I can), what would be the relative advantages/disadvantages of each? How about the relative cost of operation?







Thanks - I want to get this done ASAP, because my other option is to move to Antarctica.











You might consider improving the insulation factor



on the total house as the first step. If this



house has never had proper insulation the lack of



insulation may be a major factor in comfort.







You might also wish to consider mounting the air



conditioning unit on the roof to at least slow if



not prevent theft of the equipment. One other



positive result from roof mount is the water



runoff could be spread across the roof to help



cool the house through evaporation.







You might also wish to consider just cooling the



upper level to start. Cool drops/ heat rises.







Or just give up air conditioning all together and



learn how to best vent the existing window system



for the most comfort.



Insulation is not happening for reasons I've stated. It's simply not practical, except in the attic.



In my neighborhood, I think about the last thing anyone is worried about is theft of their AC compressor. I can just imagine to look i'd get from the building permit guy if I told him I wanted to mount the unit on my roof. Suffice it to say that it's simply not happening.



Come on now. You don't see central AC condensers installed
on the roofs of colonials when you drive around? You can mount it
on a 45 angle, or build a platform. Front side is preferred location.
And it makes any servicing so much easier. Plus it's the cool,
hippie thing to do.



Dribbling condensate on the roof will not provide any meaningful cooling. Of course it will do something, but if I thought for a second that it would do anything significant, I'd collect rainwater and pump it back up to the roof.



Same goes for "learn how to best vent the existing window system for the most comfort." At 100°F and 90% humidity, this is not any sort of ventilation problem. It's a refrigeration problem.

+1 to all the rest. Even the rainwater solution wouldn't make enough
difference in cooling the inside of the house to even begin to justify
the expense.