Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds.
it does this 3 times and goes to lockout.

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).

Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant

or go the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how good/reliable the latest
vaillant combis are?

Are they really more economical?

Is there another brand I could be looking at?

Will the hot water supply be adequate flow? particularly for baths and
washing up?


I'm a bit miffed that I've only had this boiler 6 years before major
repairs were needed, my last one lasted 16 years...

dedics

In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant
or go the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

I'm not sure why you consider this 'going the whole hog' as many would
consider replacing a storage system with a combi as a retrograde one. Fine
as a new and cheaper installation provided you know the limitations - or
as a replacement where you desperately need the space the cylinder
occupies. But actually spending extra to change to a combi doesn't make
any sense on its own.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant
or go the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

I'm not sure why you consider this 'going the whole hog' as many would
consider replacing a storage system with a combi as a retrograde one. Fine
as a new and cheaper installation provided you know the limitations - or
as a replacement where you desperately need the space the cylinder
occupies. But actually spending extra to change to a combi doesn't make
any sense on its own.


I was thinking that modern combi boilers were a good thing and better
than an older conventional system. In fact the pressurised hot water
would solve a kitchen hot water flow problem with my new spray tap.

Are all the plumbers and heating engineers being "economical with the
truth" ?

If you look at any advertising blurb it all seems very lovely in your
beautiful combi boilered house....

To be honest I was thinking in terms of household disruption when I was
looking at the various options.

Why is the combi worse than a conventional system?


You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get
both sides of the argument.

Dedics

"Ian & Hilda Dedic" wrote in message
...

I was thinking that modern combi boilers were a good thing and better than
an older conventional system.

Quality combis? That they are. The higher the flowrate the better. There
are some real quality combis around with very good flow rates, giving high
pressure showers and good bath fill rates too.

Why is the combi worse than a conventional system?

It isn't at all. It is better in most cases. Only when the combi cannot
cope with DHW demand is it worth looking at stored water systems. That means
the average house is well within combi outputs. There are two bathroom
models as well.

You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get both
sides of the argument.

He hasn't a clue, so don't take any notice.

"Ian & Hilda Dedic" wrote

Why is the combi worse than a conventional system?


You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get both
sides of the argument.

My understanding is that to achieve a decent flow from a combi you need a
large unit.
Whilst the modern boilers do modulate, there will be inefficiencies relating
to the scale.
If you need to run 2 showers at once, then even the big combis will
struggle.
Therefore a stored holt water system for simultaneous heavy use *may* still
be preferable.
Others will be along to support/criticise this, and probably also to mention
the option of a pump in your hot water supply.

So basically it's down to usage and property size which are personal rather
than system parameters IYSWIM.

Phil

"TheScullster" wrote in message
. uk...

"Ian & Hilda Dedic" wrote

Why is the combi worse than a conventional system?

You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get both
sides of the argument.

My understanding

Your understanding is lacking...

is that to achieve a decent flow from a combi you need a large unit.

You understand that. Good. Large in kW.

Whilst the modern boilers do modulate, there will be inefficiencies
relating to the scale.

There will? New to me.

If you need to run 2 showers at once, then even the big combis will
struggle.

They will not. Depends on the size you choose.

Therefore a stored holt water system for simultaneous heavy use *may*
still be preferable.

Not if you get the right size.

Others will be along to support/criticise this,

They will.

and probably also to mention the option of a pump in your hot water
supply.

Why when the mains can do it all?

So basically it's down to usage and property size which are personal
rather than system parameters IYSWIM.

Personal? It will either do it or not. There are two bathroom combis
around. Look at the Mikrofill Ethos 54kW at approx 24 litres/min @ 35C
temperature rise - and never runs out of hot water. Small wall mounted
casing too.

In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant or go
the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

I'm not sure why you consider this 'going the whole hog' as many would
consider replacing a storage system with a combi as a retrograde one.
Fine as a new and cheaper installation provided you know the
limitations - or as a replacement where you desperately need the space
the cylinder occupies. But actually spending extra to change to a
combi doesn't make any sense on its own.


I was thinking that modern combi boilers were a good thing and better
than an older conventional system. In fact the pressurised hot water
would solve a kitchen hot water flow problem with my new spray tap.

It might do. There is a problem that many taps these days are designed for
high pressure systems only - but don't tell you so. And will restrict
mains flow too where the pressure isn't great - like in many parts of the
UK. Perhaps unlike the country they were designed and manufactured in.

Are all the plumbers and heating engineers being "economical with the
truth" ?

They tend to tell you what suits them best in terms of ease and profit.

If you look at any advertising blurb it all seems very lovely in your
beautiful combi boilered house....

The practice for most is very different.

To be honest I was thinking in terms of household disruption when I was
looking at the various options.

The least disruption would be replacing your boiler like for like - but
obviously with a condensing one for greater efficiency.

Why is the combi worse than a conventional system?

In a word, flow rate. No combi - even expensive high flow types - can
match a decent storage system for this. Which matters for things like
filling a bath.


You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get
both sides of the argument.

At the end of the day it's up to you to decide. I've just installed a new
very expensive boiler and kept my storage system.

Dedics

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:35:10 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:

Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds. it
does this 3 times and goes to lockout.

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).

Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant

or go the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how good/reliable the latest
vaillant combis are?

Are they really more economical?

Is there another brand I could be looking at?

Will the hot water supply be adequate flow? particularly for baths and
washing up?


I'm a bit miffed that I've only had this boiler 6 years before major
repairs were needed, my last one lasted 16 years...

dedics

We have a FAQ for this see below.
I'd suggest a repair, if the boiler is actually firing then it very much
points to the flame detection stuff.

Most of the faults in that area will be really low tech stuff, like, crud,
contacts, and earthing, may be even something like an eroded electrode.

If a quick eliminate the obvious does not bring a result then WB own team
off a fixed price call out (which seeing as you might then be up for a PCB
might be worth it).


Modern stored water systems have strengths and weaknesses if you have a
good well insulated well control stored HW system then you may wish to
stick with that setup.

Going TO a combi boiler is usually not a lot of extra work, a few pipes to
cap off, a control system to decimate, a cylinder to remove. May be a loft
cistern to decommission.

Going FROM a combi is a pile of work.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:35:10 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:

Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds. it
does this 3 times and goes to lockout.

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).

Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant

or go the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how good/reliable the latest
vaillant combis are?

Are they really more economical?

Is there another brand I could be looking at?

Will the hot water supply be adequate flow? particularly for baths and
washing up?


I'm a bit miffed that I've only had this boiler 6 years before major
repairs were needed, my last one lasted 16 years...

dedics

We have a FAQ for this see below.
I'd suggest a repair, if the boiler is actually firing then it very much
points to the flame detection stuff.

Most of the faults in that area will be really low tech stuff, like, crud,
contacts, and earthing, may be even something like an eroded electrode.

If a quick eliminate the obvious does not bring a result then WB own team
off a fixed price call out (which seeing as you might then be up for a PCB
might be worth it).


Modern stored water systems have strengths and weaknesses if you have a
good well insulated well control stored HW system then you may wish to
stick with that setup.

Going TO a combi boiler is usually not a lot of extra work, a few pipes to
cap off, a control system to decimate, a cylinder to remove. May be a loft
cistern to decommission.

Going FROM a combi is a pile of work.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get
both sides of the argument.

Just as a warning, our resident salesman in the form of dribble never
quotes prices for his exotic notions. Rather like most salesmen trying to
hook customers. A combi which can near match a decent storage system will
be costly - and may need both water and gas supplies upgraded.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:46:04 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:



You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get
both sides of the argument.

From time to time I find the need to post this....

There is no "one size fits all". Why some people should find this such an
unattractive idea I can only make wild speculations.

To parody Fowler on the subject of split infinitives:

The combi questioner can be divided in several groups.

Firstly, those who neither know nor care.
These are the happiest of all especially if someone else pays the
bills.

Secondly, those who don't know and do care.
They post to uk.d-i-y.

Thirdly, those who know and always approve.
We all know who they are.

Fourthly those who know and always condemn.
To those of you who are in this group I beg you to read on. I
suspect that this group is larger than it might otherwise be on account of
two factors. Firstly there are a proportion of professional installers who
for their own reasons prefer to always fit a combi regardless of the needs
of the customer. Secondly those in the third group whose style of advocacy
could be described as abrasive.

Fifthly those who know and discriminate.
There are quite a number of criteria which have to be considered.
User's informed preferences.
User's previous experience.
User's prejudice.
Size of dwelling: Space v. cylinder benefits.
User's HW usage patterns.
Instant Availability v. Storage heat losses.
Number and size of simultaneous or back-to-back HW demands
(Showers v. baths.)
Quality of mains supply.
Pre-Existing arrangements, cost and upheaval implications.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant or go
the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

I'm not sure why you consider this 'going the whole hog' as many would
consider replacing a storage system with a combi as a retrograde one.
Fine as a new and cheaper installation provided you know the
limitations - or as a replacement where you desperately need the space
the cylinder occupies. But actually spending extra to change to a
combi doesn't make any sense on its own.


I was thinking that modern combi boilers were a good thing and better
than an older conventional system. In fact the pressurised hot water
would solve a kitchen hot water flow problem with my new spray tap.

It might do. There is a problem that many taps these days are designed for
high pressure systems only - but don't tell you so. And will restrict
mains flow too where the pressure isn't great - like in many parts of the
UK. Perhaps unlike the country they were designed and manufactured in.

Are all the plumbers and heating engineers being "economical with the
truth" ?

They tend to tell you what suits them best in terms of ease and profit.

If you look at any advertising blurb it all seems very lovely in your
beautiful combi boilered house....

The practice for most is very different.

To be honest I was thinking in terms of household disruption when I was
looking at the various options.

The least disruption would be replacing your boiler like for like - but
obviously with a condensing one for greater efficiency.

Why is the combi worse than a conventional system?

In a word, flow rate. No combi - even expensive high flow types - can
match a decent storage system for this.

snip tripe
The plantpot is at it again. This one is so clever he had to put a pump on
only his kitchen tap because he didn't know how to buy the right taps

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get
both sides of the argument.

Just

Please eff off as you are a total plantpot.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:46:04 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:

You see this is why I like asking you guys questions, I at least get
both sides of the argument.

From time to time I find the need to post this....

There is no "one size fits all". Why some people should find this such an
unattractive idea I can only make wild speculations.

To parody Fowler on the subject of split infinitives:

The combi questioner can be divided in several groups.

One group is full of plantpots.

In the averaged sized UK home, as long as the mains water flow and pressure
is fine there is a quality combi available that will do the job well. They
should be the first choice every time. Only when circumstances change do
stored water system come into the reckoning down the pecking order, and that
includes thermal stores and heat banks.

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:35:10 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:

Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds. it
does this 3 times and goes to lockout.

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).

Replace this boiler with another similar one probably vaillant

or go the whole hog and get a combi boiler with on demand hot water and
get rid of the hot tank altogether. Much more work and expense.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how good/reliable the latest
vaillant combis are?

Are they really more economical?

Is there another brand I could be looking at?

Will the hot water supply be adequate flow? particularly for baths and
washing up?


I'm a bit miffed that I've only had this boiler 6 years before major
repairs were needed, my last one lasted 16 years...

dedics

We have a FAQ for this see below.
I'd suggest a repair, if the boiler is actually firing then it very much
points to the flame detection stuff.

Most of the faults in that area will be really low tech stuff, like, crud,
contacts, and earthing, may be even something like an eroded electrode.

If a quick eliminate the obvious does not bring a result then WB own team
off a fixed price call out (which seeing as you might then be up for a PCB
might be worth it).


Modern stored water systems have strengths and weaknesses if you have a
good well insulated well control stored HW system then you may wish to
stick with that setup.

Going TO a combi boiler is usually not a lot of extra work, a few pipes to
cap off, a control system to decimate, a cylinder to remove. May be a loft
cistern to decommission.

Going FROM a combi is a pile of work.



Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to supply
kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect cylinder
(effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins on
whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Rod" wrote in message
...

Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach.

A combi can give the best of both - there are lots of high flow combis
around. This is professional informed opinion. Do not take any notice of
plantpots.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:42:13 +0100, Rod
wrote:


Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to supply
kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect cylinder
(effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins on
whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

You're paying a fair old price in terms of cost and complexity and
hence maintenance at the boiler just for potable hot water in the
kitchen. There are non-combi condensing boilers available.

OTOH running a vented HW system involves risk of leaks and also has a
potential high maintenance cost.

Either solution is workable, to have both is not essential. IMV it
would be different if during a HW system outage you didn't have the
alternative of putting pans on the stove, but since both depend on
having a working boiler you wouldn't be getting much in the way of
diversity either.

Derek

Derek wrote:
On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:42:13 +0100, Rod
wrote:


Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to supply
kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect cylinder
(effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins on
whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

You're paying a fair old price in terms of cost and complexity and
hence maintenance at the boiler just for potable hot water in the
kitchen. There are non-combi condensing boilers available.

OTOH running a vented HW system involves risk of leaks and also has a
potential high maintenance cost.

Either solution is workable, to have both is not essential. IMV it
would be different if during a HW system outage you didn't have the
alternative of putting pans on the stove, but since both depend on
having a working boiler you wouldn't be getting much in the way of
diversity either.

Derek

Oh dear I didn't mean to start a war! (sorry I mean a robust exchange of
opinions!)

In fact Having thought about it a bit more, and looked at the pennies
and upheaval problems, I had come to the conclusion that if I wanted a
combi it would have to be a high flow rate and therefore the top end of
the price bracket,together with upgraded water and gas supply.

we're in a 5 bed semi with 1 bathroom and 1 shower room and possibly
wanting a shower in the loft room eventually....

So I took the proffered advice and am having a worcester bosch call out
to see if it can be fixed effectively first.

I have seen comments to the effect that boilers only last 8 to 10years
these days--- why is the time to costly failure so short?

(OK I know --so they can sell you another expensive boiler more quickly!)

I've just found out my immersion heater in the tank isn't working
(probably scale or corrosion), is that relatively easy to replace?

dedics

Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:
Derek wrote:
On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:42:13 +0100, Rod
wrote:


Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system
in place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to
supply kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect
cylinder (effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins
on whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

You're paying a fair old price in terms of cost and complexity and
hence maintenance at the boiler just for potable hot water in the
kitchen. There are non-combi condensing boilers available.

OTOH running a vented HW system involves risk of leaks and also has a
potential high maintenance cost.

Either solution is workable, to have both is not essential. IMV it
would be different if during a HW system outage you didn't have the
alternative of putting pans on the stove, but since both depend on
having a working boiler you wouldn't be getting much in the way of
diversity either.

Derek

Oh dear I didn't mean to start a war! (sorry I mean a robust exchange of
opinions!)

In fact Having thought about it a bit more, and looked at the pennies
and upheaval problems, I had come to the conclusion that if I wanted a
combi it would have to be a high flow rate and therefore the top end of
the price bracket,together with upgraded water and gas supply.

we're in a 5 bed semi with 1 bathroom and 1 shower room and possibly
wanting a shower in the loft room eventually....

So I took the proffered advice and am having a worcester bosch call out
to see if it can be fixed effectively first.

I have seen comments to the effect that boilers only last 8 to 10years
these days--- why is the time to costly failure so short?

(OK I know --so they can sell you another expensive boiler more quickly!)

I've just found out my immersion heater in the tank isn't working
(probably scale or corrosion), is that relatively easy to replace?

dedics

If you can remove the old one without causing problems, fitting a new
one is straightforward.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In message , Ian & Hilda Dedic
writes
Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds.
it does this 3 times and goes to lockout.

Flame sensing problem


gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...
not really relevant given the three tries and out you wrote above


my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?

electronic ignition and flame sensing are both on the pcb


Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).

Flame sense problems:

1/ pcb
2/ bad earth (less likely in a recent installation)
3/ electrode not in flame
4/ break in HT lead (I think that the 19/24 CBi uses the HT lead for
flame sensing)
5/ other electrical work which has caused the live and neutral to be
reversed

I repair the pcbs

If you've checked the other possibilities see my website

www.cetltd.com

look for 15 CBi




I'm a bit miffed that I've only had this boiler 6 years before major
repairs were needed, my last one lasted 16 years...


Think yourself lucky ... you could have bought a suprima


--
geoff

In message , geoff
writes
In message , Ian & Hilda Dedic
writes
Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds.
it does this 3 times and goes to lockout.

Flame sensing problem


gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...
not really relevant given the three tries and out you wrote above


my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?

electronic ignition and flame sensing are both on the pcb


Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).

Flame sense problems:

1/ pcb
2/ bad earth (less likely in a recent installation)
3/ electrode not in flame
4/ break in HT lead (I think that the 19/24 CBi uses the HT lead for flame
sensing)
5/ other electrical work which has caused the live and neutral to be
reversed

I repair the pcbs

If you've checked the other possibilities see my website

www.cetltd.com

look for 15 CBi


Oops not there, I'd better rectify that, meanwhile, apart from the part
number - see here

http://www.cetltd.com/default.asp?part=594



--
geoff

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:39:19 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic
wrote:


Oh dear I didn't mean to start a war! (sorry I mean a robust exchange of
opinions!)

In fact Having thought about it a bit more, and looked at the pennies
and upheaval problems, I had come to the conclusion that if I wanted a
combi it would have to be a high flow rate and therefore the top end of
the price bracket,together with upgraded water and gas supply.


I'd add that you shouldn't take at face value manufacturers claims
about combis supplying "N" bathrooms. We have a 35 Kw Bosch greenstar
and it can't supply the hot taps on 2 handwash basins (1 upstairs, 1
down) at the same time.

we're in a 5 bed semi with 1 bathroom and 1 shower room and possibly
wanting a shower in the loft room eventually....

So I took the proffered advice and am having a worcester bosch call out
to see if it can be fixed effectively first.

I have seen comments to the effect that boilers only last 8 to 10years
these days--- why is the time to costly failure so short?

They are more complicated nowadays

I suspect it's basically a training issue viz the service engineers.
It's hard to get service engineers to put their heart into learning
about old kit that only exists in declining numbers. BICBW.

(OK I know --so they can sell you another expensive boiler more quickly!)

That an' all.


I've just found out my immersion heater in the tank isn't working
(probably scale or corrosion), is that relatively easy to replace?

If you can get the old one out. Bear in mind the cylinder has little
strength when empty ( Don't forget to empty it will you :-) ), one
of mine was little more than a copper balloon.

OTOH The thermostats are usually cheap and easy to replace.


dedics

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The plantpot is at it again. This one is so clever he had to put a pump
on only his kitchen tap because he didn't know how to buy the right
taps

Au contraire, my little mentally challenged one. I bought the mixer I
wanted in the full knowledge it might require a pump. Some of us here do
have some practical experience of problems and how to solve them. So get
back to your catalogues and dreaming.

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach.

A combi can give the best of both - there are lots of high flow combis
around.

Which are well over 100% efficient, of course. Most people here will know
by now to take your definition of high flow with a pinch of salt.

This is professional informed opinion.

You're certainly a pro. What in is the question. Certainly not anything to
do with the design or installation of heating systems.

Do not take any notice of
plantpots.

Yeh - everyone is wrong but you...

--
*White with a hint of M42*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod wrote:
Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to supply
kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect cylinder
(effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins on
whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

Seems to me to give the worst of both worlds in some ways - you have the
reliability issue of a combi and the space usage of a storage system. I
suppose if you have baths every day the efficiency of a well insulated
cylinder should be ok even when not supplying other areas.
I'm not quite sure why you'd be concerned about having potable hot water
in the kitchen? For making tea etc the important thing is fresh water -
and you'd usually have to run off quite a bit to get both that and hot
from a combi. For other uses does it make any difference?

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Derek wrote:
You're paying a fair old price in terms of cost and complexity and
hence maintenance at the boiler just for potable hot water in the
kitchen. There are non-combi condensing boilers available.

OTOH running a vented HW system involves risk of leaks and also has a
potential high maintenance cost.

That's interesting - what do you consider to be a high maintenance cost
risk? And is a low pressure system more at risk of leaks than a higher
pressure one?

Either solution is workable, to have both is not essential. IMV it
would be different if during a HW system outage you didn't have the
alternative of putting pans on the stove, but since both depend on
having a working boiler you wouldn't be getting much in the way of
diversity either.

Of course with a storage system you can have a backup in the form of an
immersion quite cheaply - just make sure you buy a good quality SS one so
it works when you need it. ;-)

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:19:19 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Derek wrote:
You're paying a fair old price in terms of cost and complexity and
hence maintenance at the boiler just for potable hot water in the
kitchen. There are non-combi condensing boilers available.

OTOH running a vented HW system involves risk of leaks and also has a
potential high maintenance cost.

That's interesting - what do you consider to be a high maintenance cost
risk?

A 50 gallon tank replenished automatically by a float valve in the
loft for a start. If it leaks when it's full what can you do?

We had one where a plastic bit popped off the float valve and whenever
anybody drew hot water it sprayed the interior of the loft with water,
of course some of it landed in the tank so it shut off eventually and
no fault was apparent for many weeks by which time there was a ceiling
and a built in wardrobe to replace along with a lot of clothes.

And is a low pressure system more at risk of leaks than a higher
pressure one?

Maybe less, but the consequences of a failure involving that 50 gallon
tank are I feel more serious. There was a very sad case quite recently
of a badly installed tank being softened by continued pumping over and
discharging it's contents which brought the ceiling down killing a
child in the room beneath by scalding.


Either solution is workable, to have both is not essential. IMV it
would be different if during a HW system outage you didn't have the
alternative of putting pans on the stove, but since both depend on
having a working boiler you wouldn't be getting much in the way of
diversity either.

Of course with a storage system you can have a backup in the form of an
immersion quite cheaply - just make sure you buy a good quality SS one so
it works when you need it. ;-)

Bet they're still made in China. See my post about cheap rubbish
Ty-wraps. 8-(

Derek

geoff wrote:
In message , geoff
writes
In message , Ian & Hilda Dedic
writes
Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds.
it does this 3 times and goes to lockout.
Flame sensing problem

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...
not really relevant given the three tries and out you wrote above

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?
electronic ignition and flame sensing are both on the pcb

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).
Flame sense problems:

1/ pcb
2/ bad earth (less likely in a recent installation)
3/ electrode not in flame
4/ break in HT lead (I think that the 19/24 CBi uses the HT lead for flame
sensing)
5/ other electrical work which has caused the live and neutral to be
reversed

I repair the pcbs

If you've checked the other possibilities see my website

www.cetltd.com

look for 15 CBi


Oops not there, I'd better rectify that, meanwhile, apart from the part
number - see here

http://www.cetltd.com/default.asp?part=594



thanks for that info, I'm hopeful the worcester bosch chap will be able
to fix it now.

thanks for you comments guys, I'm interested in the combi + yank idea if
we have to go that route eventually

dedics

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

The plantpot is at it again. This one
is so clever he had to put a pump
on only his kitchen tap because he
didn't know how to buy the right
taps

Au

Please eff off as you are a total plantpot.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach.

A combi can give the best of both -
there are lots of high flow combis
around.

Which

Please eff off as you are total plantpot.

On the news they said that over 100 people escaped from psychiatric units
overt the past year.

"Derek" wrote in message
...

I'd add that you shouldn't take at face value manufacturers claims
about combis supplying "N" bathrooms. We have a 35 Kw Bosch greenstar
and it can't supply the hot taps on 2 handwash basins (1 upstairs, 1
down) at the same time.

That gives around 14 litres per min.That will supply two basins OK. Sounds
like something is wrong.

I have seen comments to the effect that boilers only last 8 to 10years
these days--- why is the time to costly failure so short?

They are more complicated nowadays

Which means nothing. A quality boiler well fitted in a clean system will
last 20 to 25 years.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to supply
kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect cylinder
(effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins on
whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

Seems to me to give the worst of both worlds in some ways - you have the
reliability issue of a combi and the space usage of a storage system. I
suppose if you have baths every day the efficiency of a well insulated
cylinder should be ok even when not supplying other areas.
I'm not quite sure why you'd be concerned about having potable hot water
in the kitchen? For making tea etc the important thing is fresh water -
and you'd usually have to run off quite a bit to get both that and hot
from a combi. For other uses does it make any difference?

I am not that concerned about potable HW - but there certainly can be
times when cooking a meal that it would be convenient to have a head
start over cold water. (Usually when I have forgotten something...:-) )

Another factor is the long pipe from the HW cylinder to the kitchen tap
- whereas it is common to have a wall mounted boiler in the kitchen
quite close to point of use. So less heat loss from pipes as the HW does
its round trip to upstairs/across the house and back.

The cylinder would really be used for baths and showers - as it already
exists and can provide a good flow rate. So maybe possible to use a
next-size-down combi? (It is possible that this would have a cascade of
savings - no need to upgrade the gas supply to support a Drivel-o-matic
super-combi at 54 KW, not so worried about having high mains flow rate,
etc.)

Haven't looked today, but a while ago it seemed to me that the
difference in cost between a combi and the equivalent system boiler
sometimes was remarkably small.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Of course with a storage system you
can have a backup in the form of an
immersion

In-line instant electci water heater can be in a combi outlet for backup.
Plantpots don't know this.

"Derek" wrote in message
news
Maybe less, but the consequences of a failure involving that 50 gallon
tank are I feel more serious. There was a very sad case quite recently
of a badly installed tank being softened by continued pumping over and
discharging it's contents which brought the ceiling down killing a
child in the room beneath by scalding.

Good point.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod wrote:
Every time this question comes up (with an existing cylinder system in
place), I think about the best of both worlds approach. Combi to supply
kitchen hot water - great because of the potable hot. Indirect cylinder
(effectively off the heating circuit) for bath. Other basins on
whichever makes sense.

Any downside to this?

Seems to me to give the worst of both worlds in some ways - you have the
reliability issue of a combi

Take no notice of this plantpot. Quality combis are very reliable. Buy an
Atmos - they just do not go wrong.

wrote in message ...
On 8 Sep,
Ed Sirett wrote:

Going TO a combi boiler is usually not a lot of extra work, a few pipes
to
cap off, a control system to decimate, a cylinder to remove. May be a
loft
cistern to decommission.

If getting a combi (with a pre-existing cylinder) it can be used to give
mains pressure showering, and the tank for stored water for everything
else.

May as well get a high flow combi and do away with the leak prone tanks and
cylinders.

"Ian & Hilda Dedic" wrote in message
...
geoff wrote:
In message , geoff
writes
In message , Ian & Hilda Dedic
writes
Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds.
it does this 3 times and goes to lockout.
Flame sensing problem

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...
not really relevant given the three tries and out you wrote above

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?
electronic ignition and flame sensing are both on the pcb

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).
Flame sense problems:

1/ pcb
2/ bad earth (less likely in a recent installation)
3/ electrode not in flame
4/ break in HT lead (I think that the 19/24 CBi uses the HT lead for
flame
sensing)
5/ other electrical work which has caused the live and neutral to be
reversed

I repair the pcbs

If you've checked the other possibilities see my website

www.cetltd.com

look for 15 CBi


Oops not there, I'd better rectify that, meanwhile, apart from the part
number - see here

http://www.cetltd.com/default.asp?part=594

thanks for that info, I'm hopeful the worcester bosch chap will be able to
fix it now.

thanks for you comments guys, I'm interested in the combi + yank idea if
we have to go that route eventually

Do not have a combi and tank/cylinder. Just get a quality high flow combi
and get rid of the rest.

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:03:44 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Derek" wrote in message
.. .

I'd add that you shouldn't take at face value manufacturers claims
about combis supplying "N" bathrooms. We have a 35 Kw Bosch greenstar
and it can't supply the hot taps on 2 handwash basins (1 upstairs, 1
down) at the same time.

That gives around 14 litres per min.That will supply two basins OK. Sounds
like something is wrong.


Just measured it. 7 seconds to deliver 1 litre. Delivery slows to a
trickle upstairs when a downstairs tap is open. Roughly speaking
starting with the water running hot it would take a full minute to
fill 2 basins with a gallon each, except downstairs is getting the
lion's share.

Oh, and another thing, despite having the pre-heat on (that comes and
goes and the water just goes cold again) it takes a good minute to get
to the point of delivering hot water.

I have seen comments to the effect that boilers only last 8 to 10years
these days--- why is the time to costly failure so short?

They are more complicated nowadays

Which means nothing.

Except the maintenance cost ...

A quality boiler well fitted in a clean system will last 20 to 25 years.


The ironmongery maybe, I'll take your word for it. Myself I reckon it
will be leaky and corroded by then.

How many sets of motorised valves and gas controls not to mention
PCB's will it have eaten in that time ?

25 years is a *very* long time for electrolytic capacitors and
components which run hot such as rectifiers, or have moving parts like
relays.

Derek

On Tue, 09 Sep 2008 08:01:35 +0100, Ian & Hilda Dedic
wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , geoff
writes
In message , Ian & Hilda Dedic
writes
Hi everyone,

I've just had an ignition problem with my worcester-bosch 19/24CBi
boiler, which is about 6 years old. gravity fed ch and hot water boiler
with a hot tank.

The boiler fires up but the flame cuts out after about 10 seconds.
it does this 3 times and goes to lockout.
Flame sensing problem

gas flow is good although the CH chap I had in to take a look reckoned
the pump flow was poor...
not really relevant given the three tries and out you wrote above

my thoughts were, flame sensor fault or electronic ignition fault or
board fault...

this could be tricky to find, has anyone any experience with this
particular boiler? Are the in house worcester-bosch repairers worth
seeking out?
electronic ignition and flame sensing are both on the pcb

Anyhow, the options are to repair the existing fault (after tracking it
down)--which could be lengthy and expensive (or not).
Flame sense problems:

1/ pcb
2/ bad earth (less likely in a recent installation)
3/ electrode not in flame
4/ break in HT lead (I think that the 19/24 CBi uses the HT lead for flame
sensing)
5/ other electrical work which has caused the live and neutral to be
reversed

I repair the pcbs

If you've checked the other possibilities see my website

www.cetltd.com

look for 15 CBi


Oops not there, I'd better rectify that, meanwhile, apart from the part
number - see here

http://www.cetltd.com/default.asp?part=594



thanks for that info, I'm hopeful the worcester bosch chap will be able
to fix it now.

thanks for you comments guys, I'm interested in the combi + yank idea if
we have to go that route eventually

Good luck! FWIW I think one of the reasons why combis are so popular
nowadays is they are easier to fit (where no system already fitted)
and so the plumber can make a bigger profit. Afterall there's no
cylinder, external pump or header tanks and associated pipework.

When we replaced our boiler we went for a storage combi (washing
machine size) due to price and the fact that we had no convenient
place to put a cylinder.

We can fill a large bath quickly and it even coped with two baths
filling at once. When the heat bank runs out the water goes colder,
but this does not happen very often.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

In article ,
Derek wrote:
OTOH running a vented HW system involves risk of leaks and also has a
potential high maintenance cost.

That's interesting - what do you consider to be a high maintenance cost
risk?

A 50 gallon tank replenished automatically by a float valve in the
loft for a start. If it leaks when it's full what can you do?

Turn off the supply and drain it down? Same as you do with any leak?

We had one where a plastic bit popped off the float valve and whenever
anybody drew hot water it sprayed the interior of the loft with water,
of course some of it landed in the tank so it shut off eventually and
no fault was apparent for many weeks by which time there was a ceiling
and a built in wardrobe to replace along with a lot of clothes.

The tank should have been covered so this couldn't happen, and the
overflow big enough to take the full output of the rising main. Normal
overflows frequently aren't - but can only cope with a dribbling valve.

And is a low pressure system more at risk of leaks than a higher
pressure one?

Maybe less, but the consequences of a failure involving that 50 gallon
tank are I feel more serious. There was a very sad case quite recently
of a badly installed tank being softened by continued pumping over and
discharging it's contents which brought the ceiling down killing a
child in the room beneath by scalding.

There were so many flaws in that installation you can't really blame the
principle but the cowboys that installed it. You might as well blame all
combis for blowing up and killing people - or poisoning them.


Either solution is workable, to have both is not essential. IMV it
would be different if during a HW system outage you didn't have the
alternative of putting pans on the stove, but since both depend on
having a working boiler you wouldn't be getting much in the way of
diversity either.

Of course with a storage system you can have a backup in the form of an
immersion quite cheaply - just make sure you buy a good quality SS one
so it works when you need it. ;-)

Bet they're still made in China. See my post about cheap rubbish
Ty-wraps. 8-(

Heh heh - but China like all other countries make good and bad products.
It's up to the seller to make sure they are fit for the purpose.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.