Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themselves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise location of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire inside interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I would prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small section of the panel to access the problem.

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:22:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themselves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise location of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire inside interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I would prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small section of the panel to access the problem.

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connections there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire coming
loose in one of the outlets, switches, etc that it's daisy chained through
that then feed the ones that are out.
Find the other outlets/switches etc that are on that circuit, then find
the ones closest to the problem ones. Start looking there. If they used
backstab type connections, those are one common source of problems like
this.

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:41:47 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connections there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire coming loose in one of the outlets, switches, etc that it's daisy chained through that then feed the ones that are out.
Find the other outlets/switches etc that are on that circuit, then find
the ones closest to the problem ones.

No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching wiring to stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire finally broke.

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 11:59:06 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:41:47 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:



Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connections there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire coming loose in one of the outlets, switches, etc that it's daisy chained through that then feed the ones that are out.

Find the other outlets/switches etc that are on that circuit, then find

the ones closest to the problem ones.



No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching wiring to stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire finally broke.

I assume you've verified that voltge is present on the
wire at the breaker, by actually measuring it? And that
no voltage is present at the wire that comes from the breaker
to the first outlet? Any access to the wire from where it runs
from the panel to the first outlet, where you could test with one
of the none contact testers to verify that portion? Are you sure
there's no possibility that it runs to some other outlet with a GFCI
before going to the other two? Maybe even outside? It's common
for mysterious outlets going dead to be caused by a GFCI that you're
not even thinking about.

Also, have you considered possibly just running a new cable?
Depending on other access, eg basement, doing that could be easier
than tearing openwalls.

On 5/24/2014 10:59 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:41:47 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring
connections there if it was done to code. Far more likely the
problem is a wire coming loose in one of the outlets, switches, etc
that it's daisy chained through that then feed the ones that are
out.
Find the other outlets/switches etc that are on that circuit, then
find the ones closest to the problem ones.

No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo
structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching
wiring to stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire
finally broke.



Seriously doubt that's the case IF the circuit breaker was not tripped.

To generate "heat" you describe means resistance. Resistance in that
form would mean short to ground which takes you full circle to tripped
circuit breaker.

Circuit breakers DO crap out from time to time. Is this, by chance, an
outlet that gets tripped frequently? If so, I would definitely be
checking the circuit breaker as others have advised.

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 1:29:30 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 5/24/2014 10:59 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:41:47 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:



Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring

connections there if it was done to code. Far more likely the

problem is a wire coming loose in one of the outlets, switches, etc

that it's daisy chained through that then feed the ones that are

out.

Find the other outlets/switches etc that are on that circuit, then

find the ones closest to the problem ones.



No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo

structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching

wiring to stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire

finally broke.







Seriously doubt that's the case IF the circuit breaker was not tripped.



To generate "heat" you describe means resistance. Resistance in that

form would mean short to ground which takes you full circle to tripped

circuit breaker.



Not necessarily. You could drive a nail or staple through
the cable, damaging it so that the conductor size is
reduced to the point that it can't handle the current and
overheats. That further damages it, and eventually it
burns out, leaving an open. No tripping in that case.
On the list of possibilities, I agree, it's far more likely
something else.... A wire nut that is poorly fastened can
do the same thing, heating up, ultimately failing open.




Circuit breakers DO crap out from time to time. Is this, by chance, an

outlet that gets tripped frequently? If so, I would definitely be

checking the circuit breaker as others have advised.

On 5/24/2014 1:13 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Seriously doubt that's the case IF the circuit breaker was not tripped.



To generate "heat" you describe means resistance. Resistance in that

form would mean short to ground which takes you full circle to tripped

circuit breaker.



Not necessarily. You could drive a nail or staple through
the cable, damaging it so that the conductor size is
reduced to the point that it can't handle the current and
overheats. That further damages it, and eventually it
burns out, leaving an open. No tripping in that case.
On the list of possibilities, I agree, it's far more likely
something else.... A wire nut that is poorly fastened can
do the same thing, heating up, ultimately failing open.


There are probably a couple more POSSIBLE causes that we haven't even
thought of. Go with the odds though...

When you hear hoof beats, think horses (around here, anyways) not zebrasg

On Sat, 24 May 2014 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Thompson
wrote:

Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themselves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise location of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire inside interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I would prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small section of the panel to access the problem.
99.99% the problem is at a connection which, by law, MUST be in an
accessible box- so unless someone has really screwed around with the
circuit you should not need to pull any panels. Get a "fox and hound"
signal tracer. Shut off the breaker and trace the signal back.

On Sat, 24 May 2014 08:59:06 -0700 (PDT), Frank Thompson
wrote:

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:41:47 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connections there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire coming loose in one of the outlets, switches, etc that it's daisy chained through that then feed the ones that are out.
Find the other outlets/switches etc that are on that circuit, then find
the ones closest to the problem ones.

No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching wiring to stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire finally broke.
Unless a total idiot did the wiring. that possibility is about 1 in
a million.

"Frank Thompson" wrote in message
...
Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themselves
are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise location of
the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire inside
interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I would
prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small
section of the panel to access the problem.

+++++++++++++++++++

Are you sure there are only 2 outlets on that braker ? Check both sides of
each outlet on the circuit. Often they have a bar between the screws that
is made to break out if you want to use two circuits to the same outlet. I
have had those bars to burn into. Seems they could not take the vacuum
cleaner motor .

They do make tracers for circuits. You cut the power to the circuit and
hook up a transmitter to the wire, then you use a hand held unit to follow
the tone. They are usually used for under ground circuits and the hand unit
is about like a small weedeater in shape and size.

There are other things that can be used, but cost a lot. A capacitor
checker could be used to get a close idea. You take several feet of wire
and measure it, then measuer the capacitance of the faulty wire. Then
calculate the distance. Another device is like a closed circuit radar. You
send a pulse down the line and it will read out the distance.

On Sat, 24 May 2014 15:45:45 -0400, wrote:

Get a "fox and hound"
signal tracer. Shut off the breaker and trace the signal back.

https://tinyurl.com/mrjmrrz

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Acircuit%20breake r%20finder
--
Liberals are like Chameleons. They keep changing colors. -- © Oren

Frank,

Why bother to trace the bad circuit? A waste of time and money. Just fish
some new wire and be done with your problem. Making repairs inside the wall
is probably a code violation. Cut off the old wire and leave it in place.

Dave M.

wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo
structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching wiring to
stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire finally broke.

Unless a total idiot did the wiring. that possibility is about 1 in
a million.

Agreed. Highly unlikely with the wiring and staples I've seen used. I'd
de-engerize the circuit and break out the fox and hound tester to try to
determine where the wires actually go. Then, as trader suggested, I'd look
for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.

I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while
energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot. As a last resort I'd
suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and might swap it out to test it
with an ohm meter or a known good device. I found it very useful to have
spare breakers for the panel in the most common ratings since breakers
always seem to fail when HomeDepot is closed. g

I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet. That's
fairly uncommon in my experience.

--
Bobby G.

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:35:42 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
I'd
de-engerize the circuit and break out the fox and hound tester to try to
determine where the wires actually go.
Dpne that... their route is known

Then, as trader suggested, I'd look

for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.

Done that

I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while
energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot.

Done that


As a last resort I'd suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and might swap it out to test it

Swapped it out & replaced it with a new one


I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet That's
fairly uncommon in my experience.

There are two double outlets on the breaker

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:26:36 PM UTC-4, David Martel wrote:

Why bother to trace the bad circuit? A waste of time and money. Just fish
some new wire and be done with your problem. Making repairs inside the wall
is probably a code violation. Cut off the old wire and leave it in place.

This is was the final conclusion of my electrician and I.

"Frank Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:35:42 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
I'd
de-engerize the circuit and break out the fox and hound tester to try to
determine where the wires actually go.
Dpne that... their route is known

Then, as trader suggested, I'd look

for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.

Done that

I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while
energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot.

Done that


As a last resort I'd suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and
might swap it out to test it

Swapped it out & replaced it with a new one


I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet That's
fairly uncommon in my experience.

There are two double outlets on the breaker

Time to run a new wire and abandon the old cabling. You've done pretty much
everything you can do without breaking open the walls which you may have to
do to run new wire. I'd probably be sorely tempted to go after the old wire
anyway just to find out what failed. If, as you surmised in your earlier
posts, it IS is staple that's worked it's way through to the conductors then
odds are that other cables stapled in the same way or by the same
electrician when those circuits were first run will eventually fail.

Where are these double outlets? In the kitchen? How much power is routed
through them typically? (i.e. hairdryers, toasters, etc. or much lighter
loads?) I would want to know what other outlets I'd want to keep my eye on.

--
Bobby G.

On 5/26/2014 5:34 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:
....

There are two double outlets on the breaker

Same location or different?

If different, have you pulled connection to the first one free from the
outlet and tested cable alone? If it's dead there, you know which
section is the bad one (actually, if it's live there then, you also know
which is the bad one).

What is the wall covering -- is it some kind of paneling I gather rather
than drywall?

--

On Sun, 25 May 2014 22:35:42 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

stuff snipped

No other outlets or switches are on that circuit. This is in a 16 yo
structure. My guess is that pressure of one of staples attaching wiring to
stud finally touched hot wire, caused heating & hot wire finally broke.

Unless a total idiot did the wiring. that possibility is about 1 in
a million.

Agreed. Highly unlikely with the wiring and staples I've seen used. I'd
de-engerize the circuit and break out the fox and hound tester to try to
determine where the wires actually go. Then, as trader suggested, I'd look
for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.

I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while
energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot. As a last resort I'd
suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and might swap it out to test it
with an ohm meter or a known good device. I found it very useful to have
spare breakers for the panel in the most common ratings since breakers
always seem to fail when HomeDepot is closed. g

I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet. That's
fairly uncommon in my experience.
It is VERY common depending on the outlet. Refrigerator, Microwave,
and countertop receptacles are very commonly "dedicated" circuits, as
is a Central Vac, the furnace, window A/C, etc.

On Mon, 26 May 2014 03:34:36 -0700 (PDT), Frank Thompson
wrote:

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:35:42 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
I'd
de-engerize the circuit and break out the fox and hound tester to try to
determine where the wires actually go.
Dpne that... their route is known

Then, as trader suggested, I'd look

for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.

Done that

I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while
energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot.

Done that

And what was the result???


As a last resort I'd suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and might swap it out to test it

Swapped it out & replaced it with a new one


I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet That's
fairly uncommon in my experience.

There are two double outlets on the breaker

The OP has not said what he used to verify the breaker itself. A 100 watt light bulb on clip leads is what I would use to put an actual load on the breaker.
Anything else is subject to argument. I can't think that a staple in the wall would burn thru a wire without something smelling or light flickering or tripping the breaker itself. So for starters maybe the OP can tell us what he used to verify the breaker itself. Then, we can proceed with further advice.

On Monday, May 26, 2014 7:11:18 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

Where are these double outlets? In the kitchen?
Yes, in the kitchen.



How much power is routed

through them typically? Microwave (very seldom used)on one and daily used receiver/players (phono player, cd player, and radio)on the other.

On Monday, May 26, 2014 8:06:28 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

What is the wall covering -- is it some kind of paneling I gather rather

than drywall?
not sure what it is called, but it is 4X8 with fake wood pattern on one side

On Monday, May 26, 2014 8:15:12 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2014 03:34:36 -0700 (PDT), Frank Thompson

Done that

And what was the result???

know routing of wire, but not precise location of failure

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:05:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
The OP has not said what he used to verify the breaker itself.

Replaced it with new breaker and also swapped it with breaker on another circuit.
Open circuit remains on bad circuit and original breaker works on another circuit.

On 5/27/2014 4:56 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:
On Monday, May 26, 2014 8:06:28 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

What is the wall covering -- is it some kind of paneling I gather rather

than drywall?
not sure what it is called, but it is 4X8 with fake wood pattern on one side

So, you didn't give any help on the real issues of isolating the
problem. Seem desperately reluctant to actually say anything useful...

--

On Monday, May 26, 2014 6:34:36 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:35:42 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

I'd

de-engerize the circuit and break out the fox and hound tester to try to

determine where the wires actually go.

Dpne that... their route is known



Does that mean that there appears to be a direct run
from the breaker to the first outlet and that while you
have voltage at the wire end at the breaker there is no
voltage at the wire end at the first outlet? How much of
that wire can you see? If for example it runs through a
basement and then goes straight up where the outlet would
be, then I'd be fairly confident that's how it runs.
If you can't really follow it, then my first suspicion
would still be that there is another junction in a box
somewhere that's the problem. Could be in the basement,
attic, etc. And have you used a non-contact type circuit
tester to see if there is voltage on it as far as you can follow
it?

Do you have easy access to just run a new cable, eg through
basement, and then up? If so, and you can't find a break,
then that is likely the easiest solution.







Then, as trader suggested, I'd look



for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.



Done that



I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while

energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot.



Done that





As a last resort I'd suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and might swap it out to test it



Swapped it out & replaced it with a new one





I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet That's

fairly uncommon in my experience.



There are two double outlets on the breaker

trader_4 writes:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:22:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themsel=
ves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise locatio=
n of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire insi=
de interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I wou=
ld prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small se=
ction of the panel to access the problem.

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connecti=
ons there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire com=
ing

Last time I tracked one of these down, it _was_ behind the wall. A nail
from the exterior had pierced the romex and shorted N to G because the
electrician hadn't centered the through-hole on the face of the stud.

Have you actually put a test light bulb on the output side of the breaker to see if it really lights up?????????? A simple thing to do, and it is the only way you can really be sure there is voltage on the wires that go into the wall!!!!!!!!

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:05:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Have you actually put a test light bulb on the output side of the breaker to see if it really lights up?????????? A simple thing to do, and it is the only way you can really be sure there is voltage on the wires that go into the wall!!!!!!!!

and test lights on each conductor of the failure spot.

I believe its a kitchen outlet, perhaps theres a tripped GFCI in the circuit before the dead outlet

Scott Lurndal was thinking very hard :
trader_4 writes:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:22:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themsel=
ves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise locatio=
n of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire insi=
de interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I wou=
ld prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small se=
ction of the panel to access the problem.

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connecti=
ons there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire com=
ing

Last time I tracked one of these down, it _was_ behind the wall. A nail
from the exterior had pierced the romex and shorted N to G because the
electrician hadn't centered the through-hole on the face of the stud.

And!! What effect do you suppose that would have? :-?
Certainly it would be unsafe but shorting N to G will not result in NO
power at the outlet end. :-Z

--
John G

Thank you John, I was wondering if I had faulty thinking exactly the same thing.
The OP is not very forthcoming with answers to my questions either.

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:39:56 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, May 26, 2014 6:34:36 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:35:42 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

Does that mean that there appears to be a direct run
from the breaker to the first outlet

yes

and that while you have voltage at the wire end at the breaker there is no
voltage at the wire end at the first outlet?

Yes

How much of that wire can you see? If for example it runs through a
basement and then goes straight up where the outlet would
be, then I'd be fairly confident that's how it runs.
If you can't really follow it, then my first suspicion
would still be that there is another junction in a box
somewhere that's the problem. Could be in the basement,
attic, etc.

There is neither basement nor crawl space under the bldg. It is on a slab.
There is no attic...only small crawl space up there. Wire runs from main junction box straight up stud to ceiling crawl space, across on horizontal top stud, down vertical stud to outlet.

And have you used a non-contact type circuit
tester to see if there is voltage on it as far as you can follow it?

yes

Do you have easy access to just run a new cable, .....
....... and then up? If so, and you can't find a break,
then that is likely the easiest solution.

That is the plan.












Then, as trader suggested, I'd look







for bad backstabs. Then I'd look for bad junction boxes.







Done that







I'd also use a standard $5 plug-in outlet tester on the circuit while



energized to see if there's an open neutral or hot.







Done that











As a last resort I'd suspect that the circuit breaker has failed and might swap it out to test it







Swapped it out & replaced it with a new one











I do find it odd that one breaker is powering only one outlet That's



fairly uncommon in my experience.







There are two double outlets on the breaker

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:12:53 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:05:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:

I believe its a kitchen outlet, perhaps theres a tripped GFCI in the circuit before the dead outlet

It is a kitchen outlet, but GFCI is on a different circuit.

I believe its a kitchen outlet, perhaps theres a tripped GFCI in the circuit before the dead outlet



It is a kitchen outlet, but GFCI is on a different circuit.

frank all kitchen outlets should be on a GFCI.

I suuuest you check every outlet in your home for power. every last one

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:36:14 AM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
I believe its a kitchen outlet, perhaps theres a tripped GFCI in the circuit before the dead outlet







It is a kitchen outlet, but GFCI is on a different circuit.



frank all kitchen outlets should be on a GFCI.



I suuuest you check every outlet in your home for power. every last one


Another question is the age of the house, ie if GFCI were required
when it was built. And if there are any other GFCI on other outlets
in the kitchen, bath, etc. If there are, then it would be unusual
for the two that are out to not also be on GFCI. When he looks for
other outlets, he should make sure to include ones
in the garage, outdoors, etc. It's not unusual to find some indoor
outlets sharing GFCI protection with one in the garage, outside, etc.

When are you going to use an actual light bulb to test the circuit at the utput of the breaker. Non-contact sensors can be fooled, and if there is an open in the ground side, almost anything can indicatevoltage, except an actual circuit load like a light bulb. It is beginning to appear that you are the dim bulb because you won't do the definitive test at the breaker output.

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 9:27:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
When are you going to use an actual light bulb to test the circuit at the utput of the breaker. Non-contact sensors can be fooled, and if there is an open in the ground side, almost anything can indicatevoltage, except an actual circuit load like a light bulb. It is beginning to appear that you are the dim bulb because you won't do the definitive test at the breaker output.

He did say he swapped the breaker with a working one and
also replaced it with a new breaker, both of which would rule
out the breaker as the problem.

John G writes:
Scott Lurndal was thinking very hard :
trader_4 writes:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:22:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet themsel=
ves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise locatio=
n of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an entire insi=
de interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and light. I wou=
ld prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove only a small se=
ction of the panel to access the problem.

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring connecti=
ons there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is a wire com=
ing

Last time I tracked one of these down, it _was_ behind the wall. A nail
from the exterior had pierced the romex and shorted N to G because the
electrician hadn't centered the through-hole on the face of the stud.

And!! What effect do you suppose that would have? :-?
Certainly it would be unsafe but shorting N to G will not result in NO
power at the outlet end. :-Z

It will also cause problems for GFCI's on the circuit.

Scott Lurndal explained on 28/05/2014 :
John G writes:
Scott Lurndal was thinking very hard :
trader_4 writes:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:22:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Thompson wrote:
Circuit with two outlets is dead. Circuit breaker is ok. Outlet
themsel=
ves are ok. Is there any device available that can give a precise
locatio= n of the problem? W/O such a device I would have to remove an
entire insi= de interior siding panel which is wrapped around a window and
light. I wou= ld prefer to locate the location of the problem and remove
only a small se= ction of the panel to access the problem.

Most likely it's not behind a wall. There shouldn't be any wiring
connecti= ons there if it was done to code. Far more likely the problem is
a wire com= ing

Last time I tracked one of these down, it _was_ behind the wall. A nail
from the exterior had pierced the romex and shorted N to G because the
electrician hadn't centered the through-hole on the face of the stud.

And!! What effect do you suppose that would have? :-?
Certainly it would be unsafe but shorting N to G will not result in NO
power at the outlet end. :-Z

It will also cause problems for GFCI's on the circuit.

In the context of the original problem, it is not be relevant. :-Z

--
John G

On Wed, 28 May 2014 06:27:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

When are you going to use an actual light bulb to test the circuit at the utput of the breaker. Non-contact sensors can be fooled, and if there is an open in the ground side, almost anything can indicatevoltage, except an actual circuit load like a light bulb. It is beginning to appear that you are the dim bulb because you won't do the definitive test at the breaker output.
If there is a load on the circuit, a non-contact sensor will not
lie. Any current draw will clamp the voltage downstream of a high
reistance / faulty breaker.