Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from
the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was
replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down
the inside of our basement wall.

Perce

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:46:42 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from
the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was
replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down
the inside of our basement wall.

Perce

Personally I'd go with PEX. That price sounds awful high, but we
don't know where you are located, how long the run is and how deep the
current pipe is. PEX can be bought in lengths of 500 ft. rolls or cut
to what you need. Copper is 20 ft., requires more fittings which mean
more places for potential leaks in the future unless you can get it in
rolls. I presume your water line is 3/4"?

Tools can be rented to do the two PEX connections (meter & house).
Expansion connections are the best. PEX will contract and expand if
you have freeze conditions.

My house is PEX and I trust it. There are various types of PEX, even
for natural gas, etc. It is now being used in landscape irrigation,
too. There is a Thermal-PEX also that has a foam tube surrounding it
for hot & cold lines for out buildings.

You might consider getting a few other quotes, if you cannot do it
yourself.

On 4/7/2014 2:46 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from
the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was
replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down
the inside of our basement wall.

Perce

PEX should last longer than that.

The reason the town is using copper is because they have deep pockets
(yours) and "we always did i that way" mentality.

I'd go with PEX and use the $500 difference for something else.

I expect the reason why the town is still using copper is because their workers are familiar with copper and know what to do with it.

Every time you introduce something new somewhere, someone somehow is going to do it wrong or screw it up some way. As long as the town sticks with what everyone knows, then they have a minimum number of callbacks.

A $500 incremental cost to use copper seems a bit high to me too. For underground pipe installations, my understanding is that the plumbing code requires that Type K soft copper tubing be used, and that's the pipe with the thickest wall, so it's the most expensive. Also, your water heater inlet is 3/4 inch, so we're talking AT LEAST 3/4 inch pipe if not 1 inch to get the water to your house. Soft copper coils come in 66 foot lengths, and my price on a 3/4" type K 66 foot long soft copper coil is $366 and $467 for 1 inch diameter. Those are Canadian dollars which are worth about 90 cents US each. So, unless you have a long driveway, I'd get another estimate. I expect what's happening is that the contractor you're using is making a fat profit on the copper. Either that, or he figures he's going to have to buy a whole roll of copper tubing to do the job, and then he's gonna keep for himself what he doesn't use.

I'd get another estimate or two.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:46:42 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote in

Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from
the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was
replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down
the inside of our basement wall.

Perce

Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I
would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 04/07/14 04:12 pm, CRNG wrote:

Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from
the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was
replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down
the inside of our basement wall.


Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I
would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.

The pipe is 5ft deep, so I don't see repairing it myself. The township
guy who came to shut off the water said that some people do just patch
but often end up having to redo it every couple of years.

Perce

On 4/7/2014 2:46 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from the
township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was replaced
by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down the inside
of our basement wall.

Perce

I had to replace my copper line a couple of years ago. The pipe had been in
the ground for at least 40 years but from its looks it could have been from
an Egyptian archeological dig. The original 3/4" pipe seems to have been an
early type K but the walls were down to paper thickness in spots. This
seems to have been caused by chemical erosion inside and outside as well as
physical damage to the outside from minute soil movements and abrasion. New
type K coated for direct burial would have probably held up better than the
old pipe but my plumber said that PEX was the way to go and that nobody
locally was using copper any more, there being no code requirements either way.

On Monday, April 7, 2014 4:12:45 PM UTC-4, CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:46:42 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"

wrote in



Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene

and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper

would be about $500 more.



The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from

the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.



Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?



*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was

replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down

the inside of our basement wall.



Perce



Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I

would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.

--


For what it's worth, here in the NJ suburbs they've been using
the black poly for decades as the preferred method. It's lasted
30 years here in my house, IDK of any neighbors with any problems
and it;s all that I see going into new construction. I wonder if
this was a bad lot, some cheap crap, etc. I'd have no issues using
it today.

Oren wrote:

Personally I'd go with PEX.

Why not use galvanized steel pipe from the street into the house?

Isin't Pex made with aluminum tubing with some sort of blue plastic
liner on the inside and outside?

I hooked up a small electric water heater using pex about 8 years ago,
hooked it into what was a hot/cold faucet in a janitor's closet. Used
pex to supply hot/cold water to a nearby kitchen sink. So I can see all
the pex lines, and the pex is holding up without leaking.

On Monday, April 7, 2014 7:39:50 PM UTC-4, Home!Guy wrote:
Oren wrote:



Personally I'd go with PEX.



Why not use galvanized steel pipe from the street into the house?



Because everyone stopped using that 40 years ago because there
are much better solutions that don't rust, corrode and fail?
Is this a test?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/7/2014 2:46 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our water line from the township's shutoff to the house* is polyethylene
and has sprung a leak. The quote to replace it with PEX is $1475; copper
would be about $500 more.

The plumber said PEX should be good for 20 years or more; the guy from
the township who came to shut off the water said they still use copper.

Any informed opinions here about which we should choose?

*Actually about 6ft from the house: that much of the poly pipe was
replaced by copper about six years ago when we had water trickling down
the inside of our basement wall.

Perce

PEX should last longer than that.

The reason the town is using copper is because they have deep pockets
(yours) and "we always did i that way" mentality.

I'd go with PEX and use the $500 difference for something else.
Hi.
When they were constructing golf course in front of my house down the
bank, I saw they only used PEX(may be industrial heavy duty type?) for
irrigation.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 19:39:50 -0400, "Home!Guy" wrote:

Oren wrote:

Personally I'd go with PEX.

Why not use galvanized steel pipe from the street into the house?


Why on Earth would a person do that in this day and age? If you
followed what I wrote it may help you understand.

Isin't Pex made with aluminum tubing with some sort of blue plastic
liner on the inside and outside?


No aluminum tubing in my world.

I hooked up a small electric water heater using pex about 8 years ago,
hooked it into what was a hot/cold faucet in a janitor's closet. Used
pex to supply hot/cold water to a nearby kitchen sink. So I can see all
the pex lines, and the pex is holding up without leaking.

See how that works? PEX is not rigid.

On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 16:45:48 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Why not use galvanized steel pipe from the street into the house?

Because everyone stopped using that 40 years ago because there
are much better solutions that don't rust, corrode and fail?
Is this a test?

:-)

On 4/7/2014 4:12 PM, CRNG wrote:


Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I
would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.

Because black poly is not the best material. If it is deteriorating
you'll be forever patching. Pex is good for 30 to 50 years.

No don't use galvanized steel. It rusts, and that's why people with galvanized steel water supply piping spend big bucks to replace it with either copper or PEX.

The only time galvanized steel will outlast grandma is when you use it for the piping of a hot water heating system. But, in that situation, all the oxygen dissolved in the water is either driven out of solution by the heat or reacts to form rust in the hottest spot, which is the boiler. All the hardness ions form scale in the hottest parts of the heating system, which is the boiler itself. So, the vast majority of the time, the water flowing in those galvanized steel pipes will be both oxygen depleted and ionically dead. The iron doesn't rust because there's no oxygen to form Fe3O4, and the pipes don't cake up with scale on the inside because all the scale forms in the boiler. So, in a hot water heating system is about the only time you wanna use steel water piping. I once had to replace one of my steel water pipes going to a radiator, and after about 40 years in service, the thing looked like a brand new steel pipe on the inside. No corrosion or scale at all.


PEX actually stands for PolyEthylene (Crosslinked). So, polyethylene is a very strong hydrocarbon chain, and crosslinked polyethylene has crosslinks between the hydrocarbon chains to increase the strength and rigidity of the plastic. There's no aluminum involved. The PEX tubing gets crimped onto special PEX fittings with a special crimping tool, so plumbing repairs can be done even when there's water leaking in the pipe, which is a great blessing.

Per Oren:
My house is PEX and I trust it. There are various types of PEX, even
for natural gas, etc. It is now being used in landscape irrigation,
too. There is a Thermal-PEX also that has a foam tube surrounding it
for hot & cold lines for out buildings.

The state parks around here use some sort of white plastic for their
water pipes. Dunno if it's "PEX", but it makes the water taste quite
bad - borderline undrinkable.
--
Pete Cresswell

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Oren:
My house is PEX and I trust it. There are various types of PEX, even
for natural gas, etc. It is now being used in landscape irrigation,
too. There is a Thermal-PEX also that has a foam tube surrounding it
for hot & cold lines for out buildings.

The state parks around here use some sort of white plastic for their
water pipes. Dunno if it's "PEX", but it makes the water taste quite
bad - borderline undrinkable.

How do you know it's the pipe material that makes it taste bad?

On Tue, 8 Apr 2014 01:51:56 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Oren:
My house is PEX and I trust it. There are various types of PEX, even
for natural gas, etc. It is now being used in landscape irrigation,
too. There is a Thermal-PEX also that has a foam tube surrounding it
for hot & cold lines for out buildings.

The state parks around here use some sort of white plastic for their
water pipes. Dunno if it's "PEX", but it makes the water taste quite
bad - borderline undrinkable.

How do you know it's the pipe material that makes it taste bad?
Likely because it makes the water taste like plastic.

nestork wrote:

Isin't Pex made with aluminum tubing with some sort of blue plastic
liner on the inside and outside?

So, polyethylene is a very strong hydrocarbon chain, and crosslinked
polyethylene has crosslinks between the hydrocarbon chains to
increase the strength and rigidity of the plastic.

There's no aluminum involved.

Um...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-l...ene#PEX-AL-PEX

==========
PEX-AL-PEX pipes, or AluPEX, or PEX/Aluminum/PEX, are made of a layer of
aluminum sandwiched between two layers of PEX. The metal layer serves as
an oxygen barrier, stopping the oxygen diffusion through the polymer
matrix, so it cannot dissolve into the water in the tube and corrode the
metal components of the system.[26] The aluminium layer is thin,
typically 1 or 2 mm, and provides some rigidity to the tube such that
when bent it retains the shape formed (normal PEX tube will spring back
to straight). The aluminium layer also provides additional structural
rigidity such that the tube will be suitable for higher safe operating
temperatures and pressures.
===========

That's the pex I worked with 8 years ago for a small plumbing project.

So in my mind, pex is always an alumimum pipe sandwiched between two
plastic layers.

"Home!Guy" wrote:
nestork wrote:

Isin't Pex made with aluminum tubing with some sort of blue plastic
liner on the inside and outside?

So, polyethylene is a very strong hydrocarbon chain, and crosslinked
polyethylene has crosslinks between the hydrocarbon chains to
increase the strength and rigidity of the plastic.

There's no aluminum involved.

Um...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-l...ene#PEX-AL-PEX

==========
PEX-AL-PEX pipes, or AluPEX, or PEX/Aluminum/PEX, are made of a layer of
aluminum sandwiched between two layers of PEX. The metal layer serves as
an oxygen barrier, stopping the oxygen diffusion through the polymer
matrix, so it cannot dissolve into the water in the tube and corrode the
metal components of the system.[26] The aluminium layer is thin,
typically 1 or 2 mm, and provides some rigidity to the tube such that
when bent it retains the shape formed (normal PEX tube will spring back
to straight). The aluminium layer also provides additional structural
rigidity such that the tube will be suitable for higher safe operating
temperatures and pressures.
===========

That's the pex I worked with 8 years ago for a small plumbing project.

So in my mind, pex is always an alumimum pipe sandwiched between two
plastic layers.

Um...your mind is wrong.

Read what you posted. You didn't use PEX, you used PEX-AL-PEX or AluPEX, or
PEX/Aluminum/PEX which is made of a layer of aluminum sandwiched between
two layers of PEX.

Calling that PEX is like calling a grilled cheesed sandwich "bread".

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 21:37:21 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

The state parks around here use some sort of white plastic for their
water pipes. Dunno if it's "PEX", but it makes the water taste quite
bad - borderline undrinkable.

We need to know that. My water taste fine, with PEX. pipe.

Near two decades later.
--
'bout to show me a city slicker how to kick it in the sticks with the critters - Brantley Gilbert

DerbyDad03 wrote:

PEX-AL-PEX pipes, or AluPEX, or PEX/Aluminum/PEX, are made of a
layer of aluminum sandwiched between two layers of PEX.

That's the pex I worked with 8 years ago for a small plumbing project.

So in my mind, pex is always an alumimum pipe sandwiched between two
plastic layers.

Um...your mind is wrong.

Read what you posted. You didn't use PEX, you used PEX-AL-PEX or
AluPEX, or PEX/Aluminum/PEX which is made of a layer of aluminum
sandwiched between two layers of PEX.

Calling that PEX is like calling a grilled cheesed sandwich "bread".

That's what I bought at Home Despot - and they were calling it pex. At
the time, I think that's the only form of pex they were selling for
residential / do-it-yourself plumbing.

And if you ask me, I would never buy just the plastic tubing (the
so-called "real" pex) for any plumbing projects, given that the "AluPex"
is available and is a whole lot stronger given the aluminum layer.

"Home!Guy" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

PEX-AL-PEX pipes, or AluPEX, or PEX/Aluminum/PEX, are made of a
layer of aluminum sandwiched between two layers of PEX.

That's the pex I worked with 8 years ago for a small plumbing project.

So in my mind, pex is always an alumimum pipe sandwiched between two
plastic layers.

Um...your mind is wrong.

Read what you posted. You didn't use PEX, you used PEX-AL-PEX or
AluPEX, or PEX/Aluminum/PEX which is made of a layer of aluminum
sandwiched between two layers of PEX.

Calling that PEX is like calling a grilled cheesed sandwich "bread".

That's what I bought at Home Despot - and they were calling it pex. At
the time, I think that's the only form of pex they were selling for
residential / do-it-yourself plumbing.

I call BS.


And if you ask me, I would never buy just the plastic tubing (the
so-called "real" pex) for any plumbing projects, given that the "AluPex"
is available and is a whole lot stronger given the aluminum layer.

I won't ask you.

You need to reassess your logic.

If "just the plastic tubing" is plenty strong enough, where lies the benefit in making it stronger?

Do you stick your postage stamps on with epoxy to be absolutely certain they don't come off? Do you tie your shoe laces with triple box knots to be absolutely certain they don't come loose? Do you have a solid steel bumpers on your car because they're stronger or plastic bumpers because they're cheaper to make, weigh much less, and thereby promote better fuel economy?

There comes a time when you have to recognize that the people that make PEX tubing have good heads on their shoulders too and make decisions based on their more extensive experience with it. If they don't think that aluminum layer is necessary, it takes both wisdom and courage to accept their superior knowledge in making that decision.

The CEO's of the companies that make PEX tubing are of good intelligence. They don't turn to the judge's decisions in class action law suits for guidance in determining where and when to recommend people use their plastic water supply tubing. They determine that in advance so as to stay out of court in the first place. If they felt that the aluminum layer provides a needed extra measure of burst resistance, you can be sure they would recommend everyone use that kind of PEX tubing. If they're not recommending that, then seek some solice in the fact that they know something about it too.

Run the PEX inside schedule 40 pvc sewer pipe. that way if it ever needs replaced just dig at either end and snake the new line by attaching pulling to the old line.

the work and costs are in the digging this elminates most digging if it ever fails, and provides mechanical protection for the pex......

On Monday, April 7, 2014 8:33:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/7/2014 4:12 PM, CRNG wrote:





Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I

would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.



Because black poly is not the best material. If it is deteriorating

you'll be forever patching. Pex is good for 30 to 50 years.

And your reference that poly won't last a similar amount of time is?
It's been on my house, all my neighbors houses for 30 years now and
I haven't heard of a single failure. If it doesn't perform well,
rather odd it's still approved and used. And I'd also point out that
you're comparing something that is relatively new, ie PEX, to something
that has been widely used for 30+ years. There have been other new
plumbing materials that were thought to be great ideas, where after
a couple decades of use, they turned out to have major problems.
I'm not saying that PEX wouldn't be perfectly fine, just that until
it's been in that kind of application for 30 years, I don't think
you have the data that shows it's any better.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 17:36:57 -0400, BenignBodger
wrote in

I had to replace my copper line a couple of years ago. The pipe had been in
the ground for at least 40 years but from its looks it could have been from
an Egyptian archeological dig. The original 3/4" pipe seems to have been an
early type K but the walls were down to paper thickness in spots.

The wall thinning is usually due to acidic water in the pipes or in
the surrounding soil.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 16:49:35 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote in

On 04/07/14 04:12 pm, CRNG wrote:
Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I
would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.

The pipe is 5ft deep, so I don't see repairing it myself. The township
guy who came to shut off the water said that some people do just patch
but often end up having to redo it every couple of years.

Buried 5' !!! Yow! I live in North Alabama, and our frost line is
about 14 inches deep; although after this winter that may get
redefined.

Any indication of what causes the black poly to fail so often. I've
never heard of it failing except at a connection, and that is usually
due to settling.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 04/08/14 08:35 am, trader_4 wrote:

Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I

would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.



Because black poly is not the best material. If it is deteriorating

you'll be forever patching. Pex is good for 30 to 50 years.

And your reference that poly won't last a similar amount of time is?
It's been on my house, all my neighbors houses for 30 years now and
I haven't heard of a single failure.

The township guy who cam to shut off the water said they do a couple of
these a week. Our neighbor one side already had the same problem a few
years ago.

Perhaps there was a problem with the particular grade of polyethylene
pipe that was being used at the time.

Anyway, we were not offered the option of using polyethylene: PEX or
copper were the choices, and we're going with PEX.

Perce

On 04/08/14 09:13 am, CRNG wrote:

Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I
would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.

The pipe is 5ft deep, so I don't see repairing it myself. The township
guy who came to shut off the water said that some people do just patch
but often end up having to redo it every couple of years.

Buried 5' !!! Yow! I live in North Alabama, and our frost line is
about 14 inches deep; although after this winter that may get
redefined.

5ft. deep at the township's shutoff. Maybe about 3ft. deep where it
enters the basement. This is in W. Michigan.

Perce

On 4/8/2014 8:35 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, April 7, 2014 8:33:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/7/2014 4:12 PM, CRNG wrote:





Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I

would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.



Because black poly is not the best material. If it is deteriorating

you'll be forever patching. Pex is good for 30 to 50 years.

And your reference that poly won't last a similar amount of time is?

It is already deteriorating in the OP's water line. Patching it is only
a temporary fix.


It's been on my house, all my neighbors houses for 30 years now and
I haven't heard of a single failure. If it doesn't perform well,
rather odd it's still approved and used. And I'd also point out that
you're comparing something that is relatively new, ie PEX, to something
that has been widely used for 30+ years. There have been other new
plumbing materials that were thought to be great ideas, where after
a couple decades of use, they turned out to have major problems.
I'm not saying that PEX wouldn't be perfectly fine, just that until
it's been in that kind of application for 30 years, I don't think
you have the data that shows it's any better.


It has been in use for over 40 years now. Pretty well proven. It is
not relatively new IMO, but well established.

On 4/8/2014 9:13 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 17:36:57 -0400, BenignBodger
wrote in

I had to replace my copper line a couple of years ago. The pipe had been in
the ground for at least 40 years but from its looks it could have been from
an Egyptian archeological dig. The original 3/4" pipe seems to have been an
early type K but the walls were down to paper thickness in spots.

The wall thinning is usually due to acidic water in the pipes or in
the surrounding soil.


The municipal water supply is slightly base here but the surrounding soil
is slightly acidic clay. I have the feeling that any sort of reactive
material is not the way to go for direct burial, thus the preference for
PEX for modern installs (except where set-in-stone code requirements still
prevail). At least K-type direct-burial pipe comes with plastic
anti-corrosion coating now which should help.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2014 05:38:50 +0200, nestork
wrote:


Home!Guy;3219784 Wrote:

And if you ask me, I would never buy just the plastic tubing (the
so-called "real" pex) for any plumbing projects, given that the
"AluPex"
is available and is a whole lot stronger given the aluminum layer.

Even if "just the plastic tubing" is plenty strong enough?

At some point, additional strength is no longer a benefit.

Do we attach our postage stamps with epoxy glue so the stamp doesn't
come off the envelope? Do we tie our shoe laces with triple box knots
so they don't untie on their own? Do you have a solid steel bumper on
your car because it's stronger or a plastic one because it's cheaper and
lighter in weight?

If the plastic tubing is strong enough to last decades with double or
even triple the pressure it's likely to see in service, then putting an
aluminum layer inside it does nothing more than make it more expensive
to make and more expensive to buy.
Aluplex can make a much neater install, as you can form bends down to
2 pipe diameters radius, and it holds it's shape, unlike plain PEX. It
also uses pressfit fittings which do not require specialized tools, it
has a 50 year projected lifespan (compared to 20 for PEX) and it is
totally oxygen impervious -

For some people, and some installations, this makes AluPEX a
worthwhile upgrade over standard PEX.

On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 08:13:32 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

Any indication of what causes the black poly to fail so often. I've
never heard of it failing except at a connection, and that is usually
due to settling.

My former neighbor had black poly fail. The cause was the builder
apparently backfilled the trench partially with rock. The landscapers
planted a tree near the area. A combination of the rocks and tree
roots crushed the poly. Replaced it with PEX.

On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 09:24:50 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Anyway, we were not offered the option of using polyethylene: PEX or
copper were the choices, and we're going with PEX.

You could just abandon the present pipe, and trench for the new PEX.
Avoid close-by trees (roots). Bob mentioned using PVC to shield the
PEX. That is a good idea, but at an extra cost.

PEX gas lines I've seen buried were backfilled with sand and
compacted. The street was trenched to bring gas to the other side of
the street, for a new house being built.

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:03:20 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/8/2014 8:35 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, April 7, 2014 8:33:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/7/2014 4:12 PM, CRNG wrote:











Why not stick with black poly? Can't the leaking spot be repaired? I



would guess that the leak is at a fitting that can just be replaced.







Because black poly is not the best material. If it is deteriorating



you'll be forever patching. Pex is good for 30 to 50 years.



And your reference that poly won't last a similar amount of time is?



It is already deteriorating in the OP's water line. Patching it is only

a temporary fix.


I didn't say to patch it. I said I don't see anything wrong with using black
poly in that application. Just because he's having problems doesn't mean
much. If he had problems with PEX, would that make all PEC bad? God knows
who made the poly. It could have been a bad lot, bad manufacturer, etc.








It's been on my house, all my neighbors houses for 30 years now and

I haven't heard of a single failure. If it doesn't perform well,

rather odd it's still approved and used. And I'd also point out that

you're comparing something that is relatively new, ie PEX, to something

that has been widely used for 30+ years. There have been other new

plumbing materials that were thought to be great ideas, where after

a couple decades of use, they turned out to have major problems.

I'm not saying that PEX wouldn't be perfectly fine, just that until

it's been in that kind of application for 30 years, I don't think

you have the data that shows it's any better.





It has been in use for over 40 years now. Pretty well proven. It is

not relatively new IMO, but well established.

PEX tubing sure hasn't been used around here for anywhere near that long.
It's only showed up in about the last decade and for water service
to the house, I see black poly in new construction. The new construction
I've seen isn't using PEX for anything, either. Also, I believe PEX
wasn't even allowed by code in some places, eg CA until a few years ago.
I'm not saying anything is wrong with PEX. If I was the OP, I'd probably use
it too. I'm only saying that I haven't seen any real data that says
poly is no good for this application, that PEX is going to last longer,
etc. Some failures of any piping in one area, don't really prove anything,
unless the actual cause is determined.

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 08:13:32 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

Any indication of what causes the black poly to fail so often. I've
never heard of it failing except at a connection, and that is usually
due to settling.

My former neighbor had black poly fail. The cause was the builder
apparently backfilled the trench partially with rock. The landscapers
planted a tree near the area. A combination of the rocks and tree
roots crushed the poly. Replaced it with PEX.

About 40 years ago I ran three yard hydrants with the heavy duty black
poly pipe, these lasted about 30 years and they started to leak and
break. We dug them up and the were as brittle as glass. I believe they
make a better product now but they lasted fairly well.

run PEX in PVC conduit, for mechanical protection and easy replacement if it ever fails in the future, just dig up each end and install new line of your preference.

the black poly does get brittle with age, but it takes a long time

to save $$$ on this project try finding a local guy with a backhoe to dig the trench. a large part of a plumbers mark up is the excavating.......

On 04/09/14 08:11 am, bob haller wrote:
to save $$$ on this project try finding a local guy with a backhoe to dig the trench. a large part of a plumbers mark up is the excavating.......

I was surprised to find that they are not digging a trench, just digging
a hole at each end and using a "missile" (as he put it). Even for copper
it would still be the same method. I don't know whether that would work
for PVC.

Just talked to a neighbor who's live here a lot longer than we have; he
said that a lot of the people around here have had to have their
original poly piping replaced. The development is about 45 years old.

The water pressure must have something to do with the failure rate too.
Our supply is approx. 80psi, but we installed a pressure reducer in the
house to take it down to about 45psi.

Perce