http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N wires.

On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 03/05/2014 05:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.




I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current
out the sum total would be zero.

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:50:15 -0600, philo* wrote:

I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current
out the sum total would be zero.

+1

Doesn't the magnetic field around the cord expand and contract around
AC current vs DC current? Meaning measure a single wire conductor.

(I want a good book recommendation for beginners)

On 03/05/2014 06:17 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:50:15 -0600, philo wrote:

I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current
out the sum total would be zero.

+1

Doesn't the magnetic field around the cord expand and contract around
AC current vs DC current? Meaning measure a single wire conductor.

(I want a good book recommendation for beginners)



I have no book recommendation but I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_clamp


When I first started my job I was issued the "Columbia" type clamp-on
meter as shown in the photo. (I still have it) It was later replaced by
a hall effect device.


I still recall how amazing it was when I got my first digital meter

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:50:15 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 03/05/2014 05:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.




I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

Maybe you've put your finger on it. The webpage says he "dreamt up
Reter as an alternative to traditional clamp meters that fall short."

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current

Maybe the "clamp" isn't over both wires. Maybe the sensor is to the
side of both of them, much closer to one wire than to the other.

out the sum total would be zero.

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:36:23 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 03/05/2014 06:17 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:50:15 -0600, philo wrote:

I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current
out the sum total would be zero.

+1

Doesn't the magnetic field around the cord expand and contract around
AC current vs DC current? Meaning measure a single wire conductor.

(I want a good book recommendation for beginners)



I have no book recommendation but I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_clamp


When I first started my job I was issued the "Columbia" type clamp-on
meter as shown in the photo. (I still have it) It was later replaced by
a hall effect device.


I still recall how amazing it was when I got my first digital meter

I'm terrible with electrical work, but I'm learning. Called a guy at
work ('86) about my truck...first thing out of his mouth was, "what
did you burn this time?"

Lately, I've found some great videos on Youtube. Seems all meters have
variations on what they do. I get that part, but dang, for a poor man
they can be costly for a good one - so I don't blow it up

On 3/5/2014 3:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.

Read the links.
The technology exists.
But it depends on the physical arrangement of the wires in the cable.
Standard flat two-wire cable, maybe.
Twisted 3-wire cable of unknown internal dimensions, not so much.
I wonder more about what powers the wifi.

In the real world, I expect the unknown cables will be problematic.


How many devices do you have that don't plug in and also have
access to the power cable and it's only 2-wire?
Water heater? nope
Stove? nope
Furnace/AC? nope
And do I need an iphone to monitor it?
KillAWatt is a better investment.

Also in the real world, accuracy isn't necessary.
Energy savings is all about relative usage. Less is better.

You need two rules.
1) If you're not using it, unplug it.
But you can't unplug devices where this might be useful.
2) Don't use it.

You don't need any measurements to do this.
Shorter showers cost less. So take shorter showers.

Mike's metrology maxim...
Never measure anything if the answer won't affect your
future behavior.
I know that a shower costs me about 13-cents. Am I gonna
shower half as long to save 6.5-cents??? NO!

I have a device that monitors the utility meter and reports
what it thinks. Before I go to bed, I often check to see if
it reads 1Amp baseline usage.
If it doesn't, I probably left the lights on in the garage.

I figger that in about 20 years, I'll have saved enough money
to pay for the monitor...if I ignore the cost of 20 years
worth of batteries.

So, my prediction for this device is that gadget lovers will buy
it if it's cheap.
If they specify accuracy, they're gonna get a lot of them back.
If they really explain the benefits, people might realize
they don't need one.
It's a solution in search of a problem.
Fortunes have been made on less...pet rock anybody???

On 03/05/2014 05:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N wires.


From my brief look at the website, the device does not exist. It's just
an idea looking for money.

On 3/5/2014 7:58 PM, Oren wrote:

I'm terrible with electrical work, but I'm learning. Called a guy at
work ('86) about my truck...first thing out of his mouth was, "what
did you burn this time?"

Lately, I've found some great videos on Youtube. Seems all meters have
variations on what they do. I get that part, but dang, for a poor man
they can be costly for a good one - so I don't blow it up


Harbor Freight has some VOM free with coupon.
I use them when possible. If I fry it, toss
it out (save the leads and the fuse) and go
on to the next meter.

I hate frying $11 fuses for my Fluke, so I
don't use it unless I need to.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:10:53 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Lately, I've found some great videos on Youtube. Seems all meters have
variations on what they do. I get that part, but dang, for a poor man
they can be costly for a good one - so I don't blow it up


Harbor Freight has some VOM free with coupon.
I use them when possible. If I fry it, toss
it out (save the leads and the fuse) and go
on to the next meter.

I hate frying $11 fuses for my Fluke, so I
don't use it unless I need to.

I still have an analog meter ~ 30 years old. Borrowed a neighbor's
DMM the other day to test the water valve solenoids in the
refrigerator for the ice maker. If I were to buy a new digital, it
would be a Fluke, but just enough for home DIY.

I'm a learnin'
--
Somtimes you just have a bad day at the dungeon

On 03/05/2014 06:58 PM, Oren wrote:
O


I still recall how amazing it was when I got my first digital meter

I'm terrible with electrical work, but I'm learning. Called a guy at
work ('86) about my truck...first thing out of his mouth was, "what
did you burn this time?"

Lately, I've found some great videos on Youtube. Seems all meters have
variations on what they do. I get that part, but dang, for a poor man
they can be costly for a good one - so I don't blow it up




I'm sure I've mentioned this before but in my 38 year career I only blew
up one battery. That was one battery too many though. It was a large
rack mounted stationary cell.

On 03/05/2014 07:04 PM, mike wrote:
On 3/5/2014 3:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N
wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.

Read the links.
The technology exists.
But it depends on the physical arrangement of the wires in the cable.
Standard flat two-wire cable, maybe.
Twisted 3-wire cable of unknown internal dimensions, not so much.
I wonder more about what powers the wifi.

In the real world, I expect the unknown cables will be problematic.

I did not look at all the links, but yes, I imagine if the sensor was
placed just right it could work.


Forty years ago I never would have believed one could focus and image
from a camera *after* it was taken...but I bought a Lytro which can do
that. (After I had fun with it, I gave it to my daughter)

On 3/5/2014 7:04 PM, mike wrote:
On 3/5/2014 3:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N
wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.

Read the links.
The technology exists.
But it depends on the physical arrangement of the wires in the cable.
Standard flat two-wire cable, maybe.
Twisted 3-wire cable of unknown internal dimensions, not so much.
I wonder more about what powers the wifi.

In the real world, I expect the unknown cables will be problematic.


How many devices do you have that don't plug in and also have
access to the power cable and it's only 2-wire?
Water heater? nope
Stove? nope
Furnace/AC? nope
And do I need an iphone to monitor it?
KillAWatt is a better investment.

Also in the real world, accuracy isn't necessary.
Energy savings is all about relative usage. Less is better.

You need two rules.
1) If you're not using it, unplug it.
But you can't unplug devices where this might be useful.
2) Don't use it.

You don't need any measurements to do this.
Shorter showers cost less. So take shorter showers.

Mike's metrology maxim...
Never measure anything if the answer won't affect your
future behavior.
I know that a shower costs me about 13-cents. Am I gonna
shower half as long to save 6.5-cents??? NO!

I put a power meter on my water heater at the end of 2008.
The family was using $1.73 per day to heat water. Then my daughter went
to college, now our hot water costs about $1.01.
btw. I didn't save money with her in college :-)

Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek

On 3/5/2014 9:15 PM, amdx wrote:


Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek


Most people thought man could never fly to the edge of our flat earth.
I imagine there could be a way to do it.

On 3/5/2014 6:15 PM, amdx wrote:

Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek


You're thinking far field.
Up close and personal, near fields have more information that
you can get from measuring at more than one point in space.

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:17:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:50:15 -0600, philo* wrote:

I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current
out the sum total would be zero.

+1

Doesn't the magnetic field around the cord expand and contract around
AC current vs DC current? Meaning measure a single wire conductor.

(I want a good book recommendation for beginners)

Fields from a SINGLE long wire drop off as the inverse distance, 1/S.

Ah, but usually you have two wires, one with current + and the other with
current -

If the wires are REALLY close together you can see how the plus and minus
end up with almost zero field.

However, most wires have a bit of size to them, thus kind of close to them
you get 1/S for the positive flow and -1/(S+dS), where dS is that smidgeon
of extra distance. now you see, NOT zero field...

What you get here is
1/S - 1/(S+dS) = (S+dS-S)/(S^2+dS*S), for really small dS, throw it away
and you get
dS/S^2, thus everybody tells you how the field drops off as the inverse
SQUARE of the distance.

Now, with judicious measurements made in a 'real' scenario; it is possible
to find the current flow in the two wires just by examining the magentic
field around the pair, albeit a bit tricky. For example, measuring close,
and further, you can find the 'distance' between the wires and calibrate
your measurement. In other words, measure current without knowing the
exact structure of your wires. and determine the structure of the wires
all at once. But, as I said, a bit tricky.

Most clamp on meters use an 'iron' core to distort and 'short' [as in
concentrate] the field around whatever it is clamped onto. That type meter
dtermines the TOTAL current flowing through whatever it's clamped onto, so
if clamped on both AC wires, you get zero.

However, what I described is measuring the field WITHOUT distorting the
field [well, not distorting too much]


As an extreme example of the effect of 'spatially' measuring fields to
then determine current flow:
My magnetic field measuring circuitry has extremely low noise floor. Using
that circuitry I once designed a non-contact 'clamp on' multi-sensor
system for measuring the independent current flows inside a 25 pair cable.
....for tapping any phone line you want. Each pair when 'active' is
anywhere from 10-75mA and produces a noticeable field out to around 3 ft.
If your noise floor is low enough.

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:15:58 -0700, amdx wrote:

...snip....
Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek




repost a reply here....

Fields from a SINGLE long wire drop off as the inverse distance, 1/S. Ah,
but usually you have two wires, one with current + and the other with
current - If the wires are REALLY close together you can see how the plus
and minus end up with almost zero field.

However, most wires have a bit of size to them, thus kind of close to them
you get 1/S for the positive flow and -1/(S+dS), where dS is that smidgeon
of extra distance. now you see, NOT zero field...

What you get here is
1/S - 1/(S+dS) = (S+dS-S)/(S^2+dS*S), for really small dS, throw it away
and you get
dS/S^2, thus everybody tells you how the field drops off as the inverse
SQUARE of the distance.

Now, with judicious measurements made in a 'real' scenario; it is possible
to find the current flow in the two wires just by examining the magentic
field around the pair, albeit a bit tricky. For example, measuring close,
and further, you can find the 'distance' between the wires and calibrate
your measurement. In other words, measure current without knowing the
exact structure of your wires. and determine the structure of the wires
all at once. But, as I said, a bit tricky.

Most clamp on meters use an 'iron' core to distort and 'short' [as in
concentrate] the field around whatever it is clamped onto. That type meter
dtermines the TOTAL current flowing through whatever it's clamped onto, so
if clamped on both AC wires, you get zero.

However, what I described is measuring the field WITHOUT distorting the
field [well, not distorting too much]


As an extreme example of the effect of 'spatially' measuring fields to
then determine current flow:
My magnetic field measuring circuitry has extremely low noise floor. Using
that circuitry I once designed a non-contact 'clamp on' multi-sensor
system for measuring the independent current flows inside a 25 pair cable.
....for tapping any phone line you want. Each pair when 'active' is
anywhere from 10-75mA and produces a noticeable field out to around 3 ft.
If your noise floor is low enough.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:21:37 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:15:58 -0700, amdx wrote:

...snip....
Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek




repost a reply here....

Fields from a SINGLE long wire drop off as the inverse distance, 1/S. Ah,
but usually you have two wires, one with current + and the other with
current - If the wires are REALLY close together you can see how the plus
and minus end up with almost zero field.

However, most wires have a bit of size to them, thus kind of close to them
you get 1/S for the positive flow and -1/(S+dS), where dS is that smidgeon
of extra distance. now you see, NOT zero field...

What you get here is
1/S - 1/(S+dS) = (S+dS-S)/(S^2+dS*S), for really small dS, throw it away
and you get
dS/S^2, thus everybody tells you how the field drops off as the inverse
SQUARE of the distance.

Now, with judicious measurements made in a 'real' scenario; it is possible
to find the current flow in the two wires just by examining the magentic
field around the pair, albeit a bit tricky. For example, measuring close,
and further, you can find the 'distance' between the wires and calibrate
your measurement. In other words, measure current without knowing the
exact structure of your wires. and determine the structure of the wires
all at once. But, as I said, a bit tricky.

Most clamp on meters use an 'iron' core to distort and 'short' [as in
concentrate] the field around whatever it is clamped onto. That type meter
dtermines the TOTAL current flowing through whatever it's clamped onto, so
if clamped on both AC wires, you get zero.

However, what I described is measuring the field WITHOUT distorting the
field [well, not distorting too much]


As an extreme example of the effect of 'spatially' measuring fields to
then determine current flow:
My magnetic field measuring circuitry has extremely low noise floor. Using
that circuitry I once designed a non-contact 'clamp on' multi-sensor
system for measuring the independent current flows inside a 25 pair cable.
...for tapping any phone line you want. Each pair when 'active' is
anywhere from 10-75mA and produces a noticeable field out to around 3 ft.
If your noise floor is low enough.

So, a bunch of electronically selectable and 'steerable magnetic
detector arrays' plus a ****load of electronics then?

I suppose it might be do-able today (Hell! who'd have thought we'd
have microprocessor chips with transistor counts measured in hundreds
of millions (last figure I saw was 135 Million nearly a decade ago).

Seems to be an incredibly 'over-engeered' solution' just to save the
need to isolate the conductors to take a current measurement though.
--
Regards, J B Good

I prefer analog meters for many jobs. Digital meters are so sensitive the readings can be useless.

I walked under the power line at my home it must be 30 feet in the air, and my digital meter gave all sorts of readings, my analog meter ignored all the electric fields

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 7:38:31 AM UTC-5, Johny B Good wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:21:37 -0700, RobertMacy

wrote:



On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:15:58 -0700, amdx wrote:



...snip....

Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.

Mikek









repost a reply here....



Fields from a SINGLE long wire drop off as the inverse distance, 1/S. Ah,

but usually you have two wires, one with current + and the other with

current - If the wires are REALLY close together you can see how the plus

and minus end up with almost zero field.



However, most wires have a bit of size to them, thus kind of close to them

you get 1/S for the positive flow and -1/(S+dS), where dS is that smidgeon

of extra distance. now you see, NOT zero field...



What you get here is

1/S - 1/(S+dS) = (S+dS-S)/(S^2+dS*S), for really small dS, throw it away

and you get

dS/S^2, thus everybody tells you how the field drops off as the inverse

SQUARE of the distance.



Now, with judicious measurements made in a 'real' scenario; it is possible

to find the current flow in the two wires just by examining the magentic

field around the pair, albeit a bit tricky. For example, measuring close,

and further, you can find the 'distance' between the wires and calibrate

your measurement. In other words, measure current without knowing the

exact structure of your wires. and determine the structure of the wires

all at once. But, as I said, a bit tricky.



Most clamp on meters use an 'iron' core to distort and 'short' [as in

concentrate] the field around whatever it is clamped onto. That type meter

dtermines the TOTAL current flowing through whatever it's clamped onto, so

if clamped on both AC wires, you get zero.



However, what I described is measuring the field WITHOUT distorting the

field [well, not distorting too much]





As an extreme example of the effect of 'spatially' measuring fields to

then determine current flow:

My magnetic field measuring circuitry has extremely low noise floor. Using

that circuitry I once designed a non-contact 'clamp on' multi-sensor

system for measuring the independent current flows inside a 25 pair cable.

...for tapping any phone line you want. Each pair when 'active' is

anywhere from 10-75mA and produces a noticeable field out to around 3 ft.

If your noise floor is low enough.



So, a bunch of electronically selectable and 'steerable magnetic

detector arrays' plus a ****load of electronics then?



I suppose it might be do-able today (Hell! who'd have thought we'd

have microprocessor chips with transistor counts measured in hundreds

of millions (last figure I saw was 135 Million nearly a decade ago).



Seems to be an incredibly 'over-engeered' solution' just to save the

need to isolate the conductors to take a current measurement though.

--

Regards, J B Good


The part that makes it hard to believe is that this is apparently
some little company that doesn't even have a real product to sell
yet. It looks like a small, cheap device targeted at consumers.
They don't say anything about any new technology, patents, or how
they do it. You would think that if this were possible to do with
any reasonable accuracy and cost all the pros in the field, eg Fluke would
have been out with it long ago. A simple clamp on that you could put
around any power cord/cable like that would be an instant seller.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:38:31 -0700, Johny B Good
wrote:

...snip....

So, a bunch of electronically selectable and 'steerable magnetic
detector arrays' plus a ****load of electronics then?

I suppose it might be do-able today (Hell! who'd have thought we'd
have microprocessor chips with transistor counts measured in hundreds
of millions (last figure I saw was 135 Million nearly a decade ago).

Seems to be an incredibly 'over-engeered' solution' just to save the
need to isolate the conductors to take a current measurement though.


My guess at material cost for using 'available' components, around $200,
and DSP processing at much less than $800

Well it's for people who want to do something and not be noticed doing
it. Especially undetectably tapping a single phone line from 1 to 3 feet
away, through a wall for example, then use a short range 'retransmit' to
get it out without tracking the contact back to yourself. package
something like that in a wad of tar, so it looks innocuous, like tar
dripped from the ceiling onto the cabling, etc.

On 03/06/2014 07:00 AM, bob haller wrote:
I prefer analog meters for many jobs. Digital meters are so sensitive the readings can be useless.

I walked under the power line at my home it must be 30 feet in the air, and my digital meter gave all sorts of readings, my analog meter ignored all the electric fields




That's why I sometimes put a resistor across the leads.


For example, I do a lot of computer work and had some issues with CMOS
batteries. They all measured 3.0 volts or above.


I put a 150 ohm resistor in parallel with them and the good ones read
about 2.5 v


The ones that dropped to zero, I discarded.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 8:43:20 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:38:31 -0700, Johny B Good

wrote:



...snip....



So, a bunch of electronically selectable and 'steerable magnetic

detector arrays' plus a ****load of electronics then?



I suppose it might be do-able today (Hell! who'd have thought we'd

have microprocessor chips with transistor counts measured in hundreds

of millions (last figure I saw was 135 Million nearly a decade ago).



Seems to be an incredibly 'over-engeered' solution' just to save the

need to isolate the conductors to take a current measurement though.





My guess at material cost for using 'available' components, around $200,

and DSP processing at much less than $800



Well it's for people who want to do something and not be noticed doing

it. Especially undetectably tapping a single phone line from 1 to 3 feet

away, through a wall for example, then use a short range 'retransmit' to

get it out without tracking the contact back to yourself. package

something like that in a wad of tar, so it looks innocuous, like tar

dripped from the ceiling onto the cabling, etc.


Except that from the link that's clearly not the market being
targeted and the price point obviously isn't $3K either

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:43:20 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:38:31 -0700, Johny B Good
wrote:

...snip....

So, a bunch of electronically selectable and 'steerable magnetic
detector arrays' plus a ****load of electronics then?

I suppose it might be do-able today (Hell! who'd have thought we'd
have microprocessor chips with transistor counts measured in hundreds
of millions (last figure I saw was 135 Million nearly a decade ago).

Seems to be an incredibly 'over-engeered' solution' just to save the
need to isolate the conductors to take a current measurement though.


My guess at material cost for using 'available' components, around $200,
and DSP processing at much less than $800

Well it's for people who want to do something and not be noticed doing
it. Especially undetectably tapping a single phone line from 1 to 3 feet
away, through a wall for example, then use a short range 'retransmit' to
get it out without tracking the contact back to yourself. package
something like that in a wad of tar, so it looks innocuous, like tar
dripped from the ceiling onto the cabling, etc.

Well, it's obviously something you've given some thought to
(hopefully more as a "thought experiment" rather than out of
professional involvement).

"Ah, Technology, thou art a cruel mistress with thy double edged
sword."

You seem to be suggesting a 'de-weaponised' commercialised
application of "Spook Technology". Should we be worried?
--
Regards, J B Good

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:33:32 -0700,
wrote:

...snip...
Except that from the link that's clearly not the market being
targeted and the price point obviously isn't $3K either

Interesting how you went from one shot cost of $1000 to market at $3k.
Maybe I should have posted the estimated costs for volume of 100 to 1000

Either way, I wa responding to the idea that intelligently using the field
mapping around a cable was exhorbitantly expensive. Back to a single pair
current measurement...

could be cost as low as $2 plus housing in 100's quantity.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 11:11:03 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:33:32 -0700,

wrote:



...snip...

Except that from the link that's clearly not the market being

targeted and the price point obviously isn't $3K either



Interesting how you went from one shot cost of $1000 to market at $3k.

You never said they were one shot costs, nor is that relevant.



Maybe I should have posted the estimated costs for volume of 100 to 1000



Yes, but no one cares. The obvious issue is what does this cost
when you sell hundreds of thousands or millions. From the website,
that is the kind of market it's target for. Nobody cares what it
costs to make 100 to 1000. Good grief.




Either way, I wa responding to the idea that intelligently using the field

mapping around a cable was exhorbitantly expensive. Back to a single pair

current measurement...



could be cost as low as $2 plus housing in 100's quantity.

Which is irrelevant, because we all know how that works and
that similar devices are already available. What we have here is
*not* something that works on a single conductor.

"philo " wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Forty years ago I never would have believed one could focus and image
from a camera *after* it was taken...but I bought a Lytro which can do
that. (After I had fun with it, I gave it to my daughter)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytro

I thought they had finally come up with something I could use to salvage the
out-of-focus pictures in my collection. Not yet, although it is an
interesting device.

I didn't believe anyone could take a helicopter to the summit of Everest
because the air was too thin to provide sufficient lift but damn if they
didn't! (and even go higher)

I also didn't believe that there were ever any SIX star generals. Turns out
that's wrong, too. This getting old really sucks.

--
Bobby G.

On 03/06/2014 02:19 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"

I thought they had finally come up with something I could use to salvage the
out-of-focus pictures in my collection. Not yet, although it is an
interesting device.


There is software that can do it, I don't know how well.


I just did a quick Google search and found this

http://www.focusmagic.com/


But there is a lot more.


I didn't believe anyone could take a helicopter to the summit of Everest
because the air was too thin to provide sufficient lift but damn if they
didn't! (and even go higher)



I never even heard about that.
I do admit to being a skeptic though regrading human-powered
flight...and was proven wrong.

I also didn't believe that there were ever any SIX star generals. Turns out
that's wrong, too. This getting old really sucks.


I thought when Omar Bradley retired that was the end of all five star
Generals.


Please let me know about the six star variety I never heard of that one.

"philo " wrote in message
...
On 03/06/2014 02:19 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"

I thought they had finally come up with something I could use to salvage
the
out-of-focus pictures in my collection. Not yet, although it is an
interesting device.


There is software that can do it, I don't know how well.


I just did a quick Google search and found this

http://www.focusmagic.com/

Hmm, interesting. I'll have to give it a try. Thanks!

I didn't believe anyone could take a helicopter to the summit of Everest
because the air was too thin to provide sufficient lift but damn if they
didn't! (and even go higher)

I never even heard about that.
I do admit to being a skeptic though regrading human-powered
flight...and was proven wrong.

The internet taught me a lot about looking things up before I post and still
I get nailed:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ad...r_everest.html

French pilot Didier Delsalle touches down on top of the world in a
controversial Everest first.

Ever since Hillary and Norgay claimed first dibs to the summit of Everest in
1953, others have attempted their own "firsts" on the 29,035-foot
(8,850-meter) peak (see "More Unusual Everest Firsts" below). But on May 14,
2005, test pilot Didier Delsalle, 48, of the French company Eurocopter made
Everest and aviation history by landing his unmodified turbo engine AS350 B3
helicopter on the world's tallest mountaintop. His solo flight broke the
unofficial record for highest helicopter landing, previously held by
Nepalese Lt. Col. Madan Khatri Chhetri, who in 1996 rescued climbers Beck
Weathers and Makulu Gau near Camp I at approximately 20,000 feet (6,096
meters). (The record for the highest helicopter flight is 40,820 feet
(12,442 meters), set by Jean Boulet in 1972.)

FWIW, Boulet's turbojet copter flamed out at 40,820 and he autorotated down
all the way. Talk about your Missouri boat rides! That must have been one
hell of a descent. Unlike jet planes that can be "windmill started" in an
emergency, a helicopter's turbo can't be restarted via diving.

It should also be pointed out that Everest is so windy on most days that a
copter is fairly useless in rescue missions which frequently take place
during immense storms. Squirrely handling at the best of times in the thin,
windy air at that height. Impossible when the winds really whip up.

I also didn't believe that there were ever any SIX star generals. Turns
out
that's wrong, too. This getting old really sucks.

I thought when Omar Bradley retired that was the end of all five star
Generals.

You're thinking five stars - they're as common as turnips compared to six
stars, aka General of the Armies. Even stumped my retired Army wife with
this one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_of_the_Armies

Please let me know about the six star variety I never heard of that one.

Only one man has been appointed General of the Armies in his lifetime, and
one other posthumously:

I'll leave it unwritten in case people want to guess (or cheat to look
smart!). (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:15:48 -0700,
wrote:

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 11:11:03 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:33:32 -0700,
...snip...
mapping around a cable was exhorbitantly expensive. Back to a single
pair

current measurement...



could be cost as low as $2 plus housing in 100's quantity.

Which is irrelevant, because we all know how that works and
that similar devices are already available. What we have here is
*not* something that works on a single conductor.


single pair, not conductor

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:26:06 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/5/2014 9:15 PM, amdx wrote:


Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek


Most people thought man could never fly to the edge of our flat earth.
I imagine there could be a way to do it.

I can visualize how to do it. 4 flux sensors and 4 capacitive voltage
pickups arrayed at 90 deg intervals. Some fancy math to locate the
point of maximum near field and voltage.

As someone else noted, it probably won't work for cables that are
twisted but for flat or untwisted round cables, this should be fairly
easy.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:43:20 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

My guess at material cost for using 'available' components, around $200,
and DSP processing at much less than $800

The TI SOC DSP chip used on the Beagle Board costs about $10 in
quantity. It runs at a gigahertz and does hardware DSP.

If this guy is geared up for truly high volume production like the
Kill-A-Watt then I bet he has less than $20 in the board.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On 3/7/2014 2:26 PM, Neon John wrote:

If this guy is geared up for truly high volume production like the
Kill-A-Watt then I bet he has less than $20 in the board.

I don't remember seeing you post in a while John. Good to hear from you!

Vaughn

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:20:20 -0500, Neon John wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:26:06 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/5/2014 9:15 PM, amdx wrote:


Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek


Most people thought man could never fly to the edge of our flat earth.
I imagine there could be a way to do it.

I can visualize how to do it. 4 flux sensors and 4 capacitive voltage
pickups arrayed at 90 deg intervals. Some fancy math to locate the
point of maximum near field and voltage.

As someone else noted, it probably won't work for cables that are
twisted but for flat or untwisted round cables, this should be fairly
easy.


If the effective length of cable section being scanned by the
detector arrays is limited to just a few millimetres, I doubt the
usual rates of twist in a typical power cord would add more than a 1%
error.

Even so, if such a sophisticated bunch of sensor arrays are being
used, it seems very likely that the twist rate can be determined and
this information used to cancel out any such 'error'.

It seems to be, as I said before, an awful lot of trouble just avoid
seperating out the hot conductor to take electric field (voltage) and
magnetic field (current) sample data to calculate a wattage reading.

However, if this tech is real and based on 'de-weaponised' 'Spook'
technology that's been released into the private sector, then why not?
--
Regards, J B Good

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:10:22 PM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:15:48 -0700,

wrote:



On Thursday, March 6, 2014 11:11:03 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:33:32 -0700,

...snip...

mapping around a cable was exhorbitantly expensive. Back to a single

pair



current measurement...







could be cost as low as $2 plus housing in 100's quantity.



Which is irrelevant, because we all know how that works and

that similar devices are already available. What we have here is

*not* something that works on a single conductor.





single pair, not conductor

What I said applies to a single pair. There is no commercially
available meter that I'm aware of from the likes of Fluke that
you can put around a two wire AC power cord and measure the power.
And if it were possible to do, I would expect test meter companies
would offer it. So, sorry, but I remain unconvinced, especially
since absolutely nothing is said about how this new device, that
isn't even available, works.

On Sat, 08 Mar 2014 05:39:32 -0700,
wrote:

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:10:22 PM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:15:48 -0700,
snip....
single pair, not conductor

What I said applies to a single pair. There is no commercially
available meter that I'm aware of from the likes of Fluke that
you can put around a two wire AC power cord and measure the power.
And if it were possible to do, I would expect test meter companies
would offer it. So, sorry, but I remain unconvinced, especially
since absolutely nothing is said about how this new device, that
isn't even available, works.

Jumping back and forth.
I thought you were talking about my technology and costs. I know hos to
make such a device, but not much demandfor it. No, the utilities suppliers
don't want it. Or, at least don't know they want it.

Regarding the device offered for sale, haven't seen the web page, info,
picture, or anything about it, other than people's descriptions posting
here. Couldn't say if it worked or not. I'm like you, I know it is
possible [you do think it possible, right?], but unconvinced that what is
offered will do it.

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 9:41:22 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
On Sat, 08 Mar 2014 05:39:32 -0700,

wrote:



On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:10:22 PM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:15:48 -0700,

snip....

single pair, not conductor



What I said applies to a single pair. There is no commercially

available meter that I'm aware of from the likes of Fluke that

you can put around a two wire AC power cord and measure the power.

And if it were possible to do, I would expect test meter companies

would offer it. So, sorry, but I remain unconvinced, especially

since absolutely nothing is said about how this new device, that

isn't even available, works.



Jumping back and forth.

I thought you were talking about my technology and costs. I know hos to

make such a device, but not much demandfor it. No, the utilities suppliers

don't want it. Or, at least don't know they want it.



Regarding the device offered for sale, haven't seen the web page, info,

picture, or anything about it, other than people's descriptions posting

here.

Good grief, the first post had the link to it.




Couldn't say if it worked or not. I'm like you, I know it is

possible [you do think it possible, right?], but unconvinced that what is

offered will do it.

I'm not so sure it's possible to make one that will work reliably with
various sizes and construction of power cables, cords, etc. Eg, flat,
vs round, are the conductors twisted, etc. I did a bit of googling and
did find one company that has such a product, but then canned it. There
is discussion here about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_clamp

"A relatively recent development was a multi-conductor clamp meter with several sensor coils around the jaws of the clamp. This could be clamped around standard 2- or 3-conductor single-phase cables to provide a readout of the current flowing through the load,[1] with no need to separate the conductors. It was claimed to be accurate with cables of certain specified types for which it could be set, and usable but less accurate with others.[1] However, there were some comments that it did not give reliable readings,[2][3] and it was discontinued.[4]



Again, if you could make this kind of tester and it would work reliably
on the cables, cords commonly seen, I would think it would be a very
successful product for any of the real test eqpt companies. And if Megger
couldn't get it to work in their tester, I have doubts about it working
in a cheap consumer market product. And IDK of any test eqpt companies
that offer one, do you?

"amdx" wrote in message
...
On 3/5/2014 7:04 PM, mike wrote:
On 3/5/2014 3:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2014 6:16 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

http://www.quirky.com/blog/post/2014...oducing-reter/

I can't believe this will work, since it's clamped around both H&N
wires.

The ammeter I've got requires a splitter,
for that reason. I'm suspicious.

Read the links.
The technology exists.
But it depends on the physical arrangement of the wires in the cable.
Standard flat two-wire cable, maybe.
Twisted 3-wire cable of unknown internal dimensions, not so much.
I wonder more about what powers the wifi.

In the real world, I expect the unknown cables will be problematic.


How many devices do you have that don't plug in and also have
access to the power cable and it's only 2-wire?
Water heater? nope
Stove? nope
Furnace/AC? nope
And do I need an iphone to monitor it?
KillAWatt is a better investment.

Also in the real world, accuracy isn't necessary.
Energy savings is all about relative usage. Less is better.

You need two rules.
1) If you're not using it, unplug it.
But you can't unplug devices where this might be useful.
2) Don't use it.

You don't need any measurements to do this.
Shorter showers cost less. So take shorter showers.

Mike's metrology maxim...
Never measure anything if the answer won't affect your
future behavior.
I know that a shower costs me about 13-cents. Am I gonna
shower half as long to save 6.5-cents??? NO!

I put a power meter on my water heater at the end of 2008.
The family was using $1.73 per day to heat water. Then my daughter went
to college, now our hot water costs about $1.01.

That's pretty efficient. What is your brand name for electric water heater?
Can you give me more info?

btw. I didn't save money with her in college :-)

Oh, I don't see how that can work with both wires running through it.
Mikek

On 3/5/2014 6:58 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:36:23 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/05/2014 06:17 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:50:15 -0600, philo wrote:

I'm stumped too. Clamp-on meters measure the field in /one/ wire.

If you put a clamp on meter over both wires since current in = current
out the sum total would be zero.

+1

Doesn't the magnetic field around the cord expand and contract around
AC current vs DC current? Meaning measure a single wire conductor.

(I want a good book recommendation for beginners)



I have no book recommendation but I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_clamp


When I first started my job I was issued the "Columbia" type clamp-on
meter as shown in the photo. (I still have it) It was later replaced by
a hall effect device.


I still recall how amazing it was when I got my first digital meter

I'm terrible with electrical work, but I'm learning. Called a guy at
work ('86) about my truck...first thing out of his mouth was, "what
did you burn this time?"

Lately, I've found some great videos on Youtube. Seems all meters have
variations on what they do. I get that part, but dang, for a poor man
they can be costly for a good one - so I don't blow it up

That's why you should buy your training wheels at Harbor Freight. They
keep you from breaking something expensive. I keep a few to give out to
helpers who wish to learn about using a DMM. ^_^

TDD