About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

On 01/30/2014 12:43 PM, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.




Then check the wiring in the light fixture.
It must be shorted.

On 1/30/2014 12:43 PM, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.


Is this with the light switch on, or off?

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:43:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.



Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.



Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.



I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

you might need to look at the wiring at all boxes. May be that some of the white wires are actually hots and weren't marked with a tape ring like they should be.

nate

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They
were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out
and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer
flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped
working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and
they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units
internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something
to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy
fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the
connections with the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the
right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to
ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and
as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light.
And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said
it's in the neutral position after being popped.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground
to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for
sure worked for a couple months.


*Occasionally I get a recessed light that has a defective thermal protector
in it. Usually it shorts out immediately. Once I had one start blinking a
few weeks after I left the job. I had to go back and replace the recessed
light.

To have two recessed lights stop working at the same time is not likely an
internal component problem. I would look for a bad splice somewhere in the
circuit. Do you have juice at the switch?

You could wire up a pigtail socket to the wires that feed the recessed
lights to make sure that you have electricity going to the lights.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 11:59:03 AM UTC-8, N8N wrote:
On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:43:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.







Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.







Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.







I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.



you might need to look at the wiring at all boxes. May be that some of the white wires are actually hots and weren't marked with a tape ring like they should be.



nate

I checked the other light and it was correctly connected.

It "popped" when I switched it to on. (Or actually toggled it, I couldn't actually tell you if it was on or off, but I'm pretty sure it was when I switched it to ON)


"by boxes" you mean light fixtures? I was thinking I should check the switches... Is it possible for it to work for some time and then stop working after sometime if the wiring was switched?

Maybe a stupid question. But I'm not a 100% sure. When people say shorted.. Does this mean red on white or not wired correctly?

Thanks guys for the help !

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 12:48:51 PM UTC-8, John G wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They

were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out

and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer

flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped

working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.



Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and

they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units

internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something

to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy

fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the

connections with the new identical unit.



Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the

right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to

ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and

as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light.

And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said

it's in the neutral position after being popped.



I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground

to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for

sure worked for a couple months.





*Occasionally I get a recessed light that has a defective thermal protector

in it. Usually it shorts out immediately. Once I had one start blinking a

few weeks after I left the job. I had to go back and replace the recessed

light.



To have two recessed lights stop working at the same time is not likely an

internal component problem. I would look for a bad splice somewhere in the

circuit. Do you have juice at the switch?



You could wire up a pigtail socket to the wires that feed the recessed

lights to make sure that you have electricity going to the lights.

A pigtail socket? Is that a tester? Maybe I should get an electrician involved? I'm in the los angeles area, what is the average price for fix up work.

I did see I had power going to the sockets using a tester. and at the switch. I don't want to reset the breaker if there's some improper connections going on. Seems a tad dangerous.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:51:13 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Is it possible for it to work for some time and then stop working after sometime if the wiring was switched?

Like you I'm limited with electricity.

Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on
the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --
backstabbed.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:01:50 PM UTC-8, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:51:13 -0800 (PST),

wrote:



Is it possible for it to work for some time and then stop working after sometime if the wiring was switched?



Like you I'm limited with electricity.



Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on

the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --

backstabbed.

I'll have to check when I get home.. backstabbed is not a preferred method?

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:04:15 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:01:50 PM UTC-8, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:51:13 -0800 (PST),

wrote:



Is it possible for it to work for some time and then stop working after sometime if the wiring was switched?



Like you I'm limited with electricity.



Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on

the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --

backstabbed.

I'll have to check when I get home.. backstabbed is not a preferred method?

No. If so, put the wires on the screws.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:08:57 PM UTC-8, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:04:15 -0800 (PST),

wrote:



On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:01:50 PM UTC-8, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:51:13 -0800 (PST),



wrote:







Is it possible for it to work for some time and then stop working after sometime if the wiring was switched?







Like you I'm limited with electricity.







Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on



the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --



backstabbed.



I'll have to check when I get home.. backstabbed is not a preferred method?



No. If so, put the wires on the screws.

but that could cause it to shorten?

On 01/30/2014 12:43 PM, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. . .
. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not
too keen working with electricity.

"philo " wrote in message
...

Then check the wiring in the light fixture.
It must be shorted.

This seems bad advice for someone "not too keen working with electricity."
In the modern world, peace of mind costs hard cash, but employing a skilled
tradesman (if you can find one) is usually worth the price.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On 1/30/2014 3:55 PM, wrote:
....

but that could cause it to shorten?

No, it's a red herring to the problem.

Don't get sidetracked.

A) Did you note carefully the actual connections before you
disconnected so that you can without fail put back the original as it
was? Is there any chance you dislodged a marked wire; that is removed a
piece of black tape that wasn't actually holding anything but there to
mark a white conductor used as neutral as is allowed on certain cases
where there are insufficient wires of the proper color in a standard
romex cable? If that is so there's a chance you have the feed hooked to
the carrier.

B) What again is the original symptom? What are the fixtures? It makes
almost now sense that _two_ just plain light fixtures would fail with an
internal open altho I susppose it is possible. I'd approach it, since
the initial installation appears to have be correct by trying to
diagnose the failure and fixing that rather than by the "swap out and
hope" route you've outlined, particularly as it seems you've fouled up
what was working.

C) If you can't follow what's going on by looking for one of the
multiple places online that has outlines of wiring 3-way switches with
the alternate locations for the feed, then I'd suggest retiring from the
field unscathed with nothing more than a tripped breaker and recall the
former installer.

--

On 01/30/2014 02:55 PM, wrote:

X
To have two recessed lights stop working at the same time is not likely an

internal component problem. I would look for a bad splice somewhere in the

circuit. Do you have juice at the switch?



You could wire up a pigtail socket to the wires that feed the recessed

lights to make sure that you have electricity going to the lights.

A pigtail socket? Is that a tester? Maybe I should get an electrician involved? I'm in the los angeles area, what is the average price for fix up work.

I did see I had power going to the sockets using a tester. and at the switch. I don't want to reset the breaker if there's some improper connections going on. Seems a tad dangerous.




If you do not know **exactly** what you are doing, calling an
electrician will be a lot cheaper than the funeral.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:55:14 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

If so, put the wires on the screws.

but that could cause it to shorten?

Back stabbed connections are not reliable in my experience. For
example, my wife always used the same wall receptacle to plug the iron
in. One day I plugged something in and witnessed a bright spark. The
outlet was back stabbed - push in connection. My understanding is the
connections are not reliable. Poor connection verses the screw down
way. Those experienced here can better explain it to you. Poor
connection; causes heat and more likely to fail.

Anytime I find a back stabbed connection I promptly move the wires to
the screws and snug it down - better contact. Back stabbed is just a
copper blade inside the switch.

Black wire on the gold screw, white wire on the silver screw.

Back stabs are a short cut for the electrician - avoid it.

On 01/30/2014 03:57 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
On 01/30/2014 12:43 PM, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. . .
. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not
too keen working with electricity.

"philo " wrote in message
...

Then check the wiring in the light fixture.
It must be shorted.

This seems bad advice for someone "not too keen working with electricity."
In the modern world, peace of mind costs hard cash, but employing a skilled
tradesman (if you can find one) is usually worth the price.




I told the guy elsewhere that the price of an electrician will be less
than that of a funeral.


This newsgroup is really for people who basically know how to do things
but are looking for tips on how to /best/ do things.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 2:52:41 PM UTC-8, philo* wrote:
On 01/30/2014 03:57 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:

On 01/30/2014 12:43 PM, wrote:

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. .. .

. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not

too keen working with electricity.



"philo " wrote in message

...



Then check the wiring in the light fixture.

It must be shorted.



This seems bad advice for someone "not too keen working with electricity."

In the modern world, peace of mind costs hard cash, but employing a skilled

tradesman (if you can find one) is usually worth the price.









I told the guy elsewhere that the price of an electrician will be less

than that of a funeral.





This newsgroup is really for people who basically know how to do things

but are looking for tips on how to /best/ do things.

thanks again guys. unfortunately the original installer is not available anymore. he moved away. So I'll have to find a new electrician. Hopefully this doesn't set me back too much since all of the stuff is cut out and the wires are set up.

On 1/30/2014 4:11 PM, dpb wrote:
On 1/30/2014 3:55 PM, wrote:
...

but that could cause it to shorten?

No, it's a red herring to the problem.

Don't get sidetracked.

A) Did you note carefully the actual connections before you disconnected
so that you can without fail put back the original as it was? Is there
any chance you dislodged a marked wire; that is removed a piece of black
tape that wasn't actually holding anything but there to mark a white
conductor used as neutral as is allowed on certain cases where there are
insufficient wires of the proper color in a standard romex cable? If
that is so there's a chance you have the feed hooked to the carrier.
....

ERRATUM: the above was intended to read "...used as _other than_
neutral..."

--

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:43:21 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

I am interested in knowing how you talked the rep into sending you new
fixtures and how they both ended up going bad the same day.

What I would do is just disconnect both fixtures and cap the wires and
see if the clears the problem.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 3:17:52 PM UTC-8, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:43:21 -0800 (PST),

wrote:



About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.



Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.



Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.



I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.



I am interested in knowing how you talked the rep into sending you new

fixtures and how they both ended up going bad the same day.



What I would do is just disconnect both fixtures and cap the wires and

see if the clears the problem.

the guy was willing to send me new ones with no hassle at all. I just called the "tech" support. and he easily sent me new ones. No Receipt, I told him my model number.. He even sent me the wrong two. Took it to my local hardware shop and exchanged them for the correct ones, earning myself 60 bucks on a gift card.. lol. I didn't want to send them back and get new ones so forth. But there might not be any pproblem with the units and I might be able to return both new ones and get a positive. This money I can spend on an electrician. ha

just cap them off and have them connected to nothing but the caps?

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 3:13:08 PM UTC-8, dpb wrote:
On 1/30/2014 4:11 PM, dpb wrote:

On 1/30/2014 3:55 PM, wrote:

...



but that could cause it to shorten?



No, it's a red herring to the problem.



Don't get sidetracked.



A) Did you note carefully the actual connections before you disconnected

so that you can without fail put back the original as it was? Is there

any chance you dislodged a marked wire; that is removed a piece of black

tape that wasn't actually holding anything but there to mark a white

conductor used as neutral as is allowed on certain cases where there are

insufficient wires of the proper color in a standard romex cable? If

that is so there's a chance you have the feed hooked to the carrier.

...



ERRATUM: the above was intended to read "...used as _other than_

neutral..."



--

When I took off the connections on the one fixture, it was white on white, black on black, and ground on ground. I would have noticed if it was mixed. and I didn't even touch the other light.
I just don't understand how it could have worked and then all of sudden stop

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 15:23:04 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 3:17:52 PM UTC-8, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:43:21 -0800 (PST),

wrote:



About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.



Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.



Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.



I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.



I am interested in knowing how you talked the rep into sending you new

fixtures and how they both ended up going bad the same day.



What I would do is just disconnect both fixtures and cap the wires and

see if the clears the problem.

the guy was willing to send me new ones with no hassle at all. I just called the "tech" support. and he easily sent me new ones. No Receipt, I told him my model number.. He even sent me the wrong two. Took it to my local hardware shop and exchanged them for the correct ones, earning myself 60 bucks on a gift card.. lol. I didn't want to send them back and get new ones so forth. But there might not be any pproblem with the units and I might be able to return both new ones and get a positive. This money I can spend on an electrician. ha

just cap them off and have them connected to nothing but the caps?

Black to black. White to white and green/bare to bare is almost a
slam dunk correct hookup.

What I would do is test one of the "bad" fixtures by hooking it up to
120v. I am not sure I would tell you to do that though.

If you only messed with one light, what I would do is just disconnect
it temporary and cap the (house wiring to the fixture) black white
with wire nuts.

Then I would reset the breaker and just see if it holds.

On 01/30/2014 05:06 PM, wrote:
X


This newsgroup is really for people who basically know how to do things

but are looking for tips on how to /best/ do things.

thanks again guys. unfortunately the original installer is not available anymore. he moved away. So I'll have to find a new electrician. Hopefully this doesn't set me back too much since all of the stuff is cut out and the wires are set up.



Well...unless you are totally sure of what you are doing, calling an
electrician will be money well spent.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 3:35:00 PM UTC-8, philo* wrote:
On 01/30/2014 05:06 PM, wrote:

X





This newsgroup is really for people who basically know how to do things



but are looking for tips on how to /best/ do things.



thanks again guys. unfortunately the original installer is not available anymore. he moved away. So I'll have to find a new electrician. Hopefully this doesn't set me back too much since all of the stuff is cut out and the wires are set up.







Well...unless you are totally sure of what you are doing, calling an

electrician will be money well spent.

yeah.. I'll probably be calling an electrician soon.. eh.. Confusing. I wanna know the solution though.. So i'll be eyeing him ha

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:55:14 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

If so, put the wires on the screws.

but that could cause it to shorten?

Back stabbed connections are not reliable in my experience. For
example, my wife always used the same wall receptacle to plug the iron
in. One day I plugged something in and witnessed a bright spark. The
outlet was back stabbed - push in connection. My understanding is the
connections are not reliable. Poor connection verses the screw down
way.

....snip...

It might be worthwhile to point out that to the uninitiated, such as the
OP, there may be some confusion when it comes to the term "back stabbed"
device (switch, receptacle, etc.)

The older, and correctly named, back stabbed devices were the type where
the wire was stripped and then pushed into a hole in the back of the
device. The wire slid past a sharp, flat piece of metal which then wedged
itself against the wire, making the connection. These were notorious for
failing as the "spring" went out of the metal and the connection loosened.

Do an Google image search for back stab receptacle and you'll see lots of
images of failed, burnt receptacles.

Now, fast forward to modern times...

These days you can purchase quality devices that might be confused with a
back stab device in that the wires still get pushed into a hole in the back
of the device, but then the screw is tightened and the wire is pinched
between 2 metal plates.

For example, the uninitiated might think this is a back stab receptacle if
they pulled it out of the wall and saw the wires going into the hole in the
back of the device. This is _not_ a back stab device.

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Re...0054_DJFcs.jpg

I'm just to make that there is no confusion between the 2 types of
receptacles.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:30:56 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

...snip...

It might be worthwhile to point out that to the uninitiated, such as the
OP, there may be some confusion when it comes to the term "back stabbed"
device (switch, receptacle, etc.)

The older, and correctly named, back stabbed devices were the type where
the wire was stripped and then pushed into a hole in the back of the
device. The wire slid past a sharp, flat piece of metal which then wedged
itself against the wire, making the connection. These were notorious for
failing as the "spring" went out of the metal and the connection loosened.

Do an Google image search for back stab receptacle and you'll see lots of
images of failed, burnt receptacles.

Now, fast forward to modern times...

These days you can purchase quality devices that might be confused with a
back stab device in that the wires still get pushed into a hole in the back
of the device, but then the screw is tightened and the wire is pinched
between 2 metal plates.

For example, the uninitiated might think this is a back stab receptacle if
they pulled it out of the wall and saw the wires going into the hole in the
back of the device. This is _not_ a back stab device.

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Re...0054_DJFcs.jpg

I'm just to make that there is no confusion between the 2 types of
receptacles.

Duly noted.

On 1/30/2014 1:43 PM, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

Sure sounds like a problem with the socket,
or the bulb. I had a case at church, where
a light kept popping the breaker. Turned out
to be a defective bulb. Did you try this with
no bulb in the socket? Worth a try.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/30/2014 3:55 PM, wrote:

Maybe I should get an electrician involved? I'm in the los angeles area, what is the average price for fix up work.

I did see I had power going to the sockets using a tester. and at the switch. I don't want to reset the breaker if there's some improper connections going on. Seems a tad dangerous.


I'd ask around, see if any of your friends are
experienced with home wiring. Not everyone has
every skill. I call for help when I get into
some projects I can't handle. Wisdom isn't
always manly, but it can be safer.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/30/2014 4:04 PM, wrote:

Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on

the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --

backstabbed.

I'll have to check when I get home.. backstabbed is not a preferred method?

Backstabbed is inferior. Wire under the screw
head is much better.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/30/2014 4:08 PM, Oren wrote:
Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on

the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --

backstabbed.

I'll have to check when I get home.. backstabbed is not a preferred method?

No. If so, put the wires on the screws.

To release back stabbed wire, sometimes have to
push in the slot with a tiny screw driver. Or in
the case of my kitchen's toaster socket, smash
the hell out of the socket and break it off.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/30/2014 4:55 PM, wrote:
Are the wires "backstabbed" on the switch? Best to place the wires on
the screws when mounting them and avoid the push in connection --
backstabbed.
If so, put the wires on the screws.

but that could cause it to shorten?

It sure won't make the wires longer!

As to electrical short, wires under the
screws is the the time honored technique.
Continues to sound like you should call
in someone with more experience.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/30/2014 5:25 PM, wrote:
....

When I took off the connections on the one fixture, it was white on
white, black on black, and ground on ground. I would have noticed if
it was mixed. and I didn't even touch the other light. I just don't
understand how it could have worked and then all of sudden stop

"Stuff happens..."

If as outlined previously you can't understand how the wiring is
_supposed_ to be based on readily-available wiring diagrams for 3-way
switches to use to diagnose the problem, sounds like time to call in the
pro...

--

On 1/30/2014 9:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 1/30/2014 5:25 PM, wrote:
....

When I took off the connections on the one fixture, it was white on
white, black on black, and ground on ground. I would have noticed if
it was mixed. and I didn't even touch the other light. I just don't
understand how it could have worked and then all of sudden stop

"Stuff happens..."

If as outlined previously you can't understand how the wiring is
_supposed_ to be based on readily-available wiring diagrams for 3-way
switches to use to diagnose the problem, sounds like time to call in the
pro...

--

It could be that there was damage to the wiring and the jostling of the
wiring created a short. If I follow this thread, correctly, you only
replaced the light fixture and after this is when you noticed the short.

Is it possible that it shorted before? Meaning that you are positive
that the breaker was not tripped before you made the replacement? If
so, then the problem is at the location of the first fixture that you
replaced. Either the fixture is wired improperly or there is an issue,
physically, with the wiring. Inspect the wiring, then isolate. Put
wire nuts on each individual wire and stuff back into the box. Turn
breaker back on and flip the switch on-off. Wire nut fixture without
mounting back to outlet box, turn breaker back on and flip the switch
on-off. You might get it to replicate, but if you do manage to get it
working without tripping the breaker this does not mean that everything
is okay.

You must find out why it is tripping and repair the problem. Hopefully
you just mixed up a traveler with the neutral.

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:43:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with electricity.



Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.



I don't see on what basis any competent support person at a light
manufacturer would tell you that the likely source of the intitial
problem was that two of their light fixtures simultaneously failed after
just a year. If two new fixtures on the same switch both stopped
working, it's highly likely that there is some wiring problem.




Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.


are you sure the breaker wasnt' already tripped *before* you started?
Sometimes it's hard to tell, because they don't move all the way to
off. If that's the case, the breaker may have been the cause of bot
lights going off due to a short before you even started. Anything else
on that same breaker that you know was working when the lights were out?






I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

If something isn't done right, it certainly can work for some
period of time, then fail. Wires not properly secured, comes loose,
etc. Was this done by a licensed electrician? Given your inexperience
with electricity, the only safe thing to do is call an electrician.
It's probably not the fixtures and if you can return them, that may
pay for the electrician. Unless it turns out the previous guy wasn't
an electrician and did some half-assed install that needs to be done
over.

wrote in message

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in
the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I
was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the
wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer
flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it
just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with
electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the
recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a
problem with both of the actual units internal
components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had
something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units,
thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the
wiring is set up I could just match the connections with
the new identical unit.

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure
I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to
white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the
units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and
as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near
the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle
position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral
position after being popped.

Call an electrician. Wiring a 3 way is not as simple as what you did, there
is another wire involved. Additionally the power can come from various
locations (switch, light).

http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/in...way-switch.htm

And leave the breaker off until the electrician fixes it.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Oren" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:55:14 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

If so, put the wires on the screws.

but that could cause it to shorten?

Back stabbed connections are not reliable in my
experience. For example, my wife always used the same
wall receptacle to plug the iron in. One day I plugged
something in and witnessed a bright spark. The outlet was
back stabbed - push in connection. My understanding is
the connections are not reliable. Poor connection verses
the screw down way. Those experienced here can better
explain it to you. Poor connection; causes heat and more
likely to fail.

There are back stabs and then there are back stabs...some (industrial grade,
moderately more expensive) have a screw down clamp for the stab. Those are
fine. Most residential back stab devices are for 14 gauge wire; industrial
10-12 gauge.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Friday, January 31, 2014 8:55:42 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message



About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in

the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I

was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the

wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer

flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it

just stopped working. I'm not too keen working with

electricity.



Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the

recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a

problem with both of the actual units internal

components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had

something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units,

thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the

wiring is set up I could just match the connections with

the new identical unit.



Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure

I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to

white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the

units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and

as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near

the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle

position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral

position after being popped.



Call an electrician. Wiring a 3 way is not as simple as what you did, there

is another wire involved. Additionally the power can come from various

locations (switch, light).



He didn't wire the 3-way circuit, he just replaced a recessed light
in a 3-way. And from his description of what he did, ie
old light connected to black, wht, gnd and duplicating that with
the new light, that is the correct procedure.

I agree about calling the electrician because something is wrong,
two recessed lights don't just stop working at the same time
because of some simultaneous failure in year old fixtures, and
he doesn't have the skills to safely find and fix it. I wouldn't
be surprised if this year old installation was some hack job.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:06:03 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Back stabbed connections are not reliable in my
experience. For example, my wife always used the same
wall receptacle to plug the iron in. One day I plugged
something in and witnessed a bright spark. The outlet was
back stabbed - push in connection. My understanding is
the connections are not reliable. Poor connection verses
the screw down way. Those experienced here can better
explain it to you. Poor connection; causes heat and more
likely to fail.

There are back stabs and then there are back stabs...some (industrial grade,
moderately more expensive) have a screw down clamp for the stab. Those are
fine. Most residential back stab devices are for 14 gauge wire; industrial
10-12 gauge.

Yes. Derby pointed out:

....
"This is _not_ a back stab device.

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Re...0054_DJFcs.jpg

I'm just to make that there is no confusion between the 2 types of
receptacles."

....

I'm familiar with them and have used one. I have a GFCI 15 Amp
receptacle that uses the same method.

On 1/30/2014 10:29 PM, Steve F. wrote:
On 1/30/2014 9:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 1/30/2014 5:25 PM, wrote:
....

When I took off the connections on the one fixture, it was white on
white, black on black, and ground on ground. I would have noticed if
it was mixed. and I didn't even touch the other light. I just don't
understand how it could have worked and then all of sudden stop

"Stuff happens..."

If as outlined previously you can't understand how the wiring is
_supposed_ to be based on readily-available wiring diagrams for 3-way
switches to use to diagnose the problem, sounds like time to call in the
pro...

--

It could be that there was damage to the wiring and the jostling of the
wiring created a short. If I follow this thread, correctly, you only
replaced the light fixture and after this is when you noticed the short.

Is it possible that it shorted before? Meaning that you are positive
that the breaker was not tripped before you made the replacement? If
so, then the problem is at the location of the first fixture that you
replaced. Either the fixture is wired improperly or there is an issue,
physically, with the wiring. Inspect the wiring, then isolate. Put
wire nuts on each individual wire and stuff back into the box. Turn
breaker back on and flip the switch on-off. Wire nut fixture without
mounting back to outlet box, turn breaker back on and flip the switch
on-off. You might get it to replicate, but if you do manage to get it
working without tripping the breaker this does not mean that everything
is okay.

You must find out why it is tripping and repair the problem. Hopefully
you just mixed up a traveler with the neutral.

The difficulty here is that there's no way to tell what actually
happened before. It is quite unusual for a nearly new light fixture to
somehow fail internally (what more two) unless these are some new LED or
other thingie. Altho it was noted that switches were replaced; almost
as likely I'd think there was a bad batch of switches or the electrician
used some cheap Asian imports or something and the problem's in the
switch(es) as much or more than the fixtures.

It's also not clear what "quit working" means and what, if any,
diagnostics were performed on the system before the dismantling.

Who's tied to whom depends on the relative location of feed, switches
and lights...as suggested, OP needs to look online for the configuration
that matches his; there are innumerable images that illustrate any
perturbation of from whence the feed comes and the arrangement.

It ain't rocket science but it does require figuring out what one is
doing if don't know once there's a problem.

One possible way to start would be by taking a fixture and first
checking it works on its own, then the switches and the wiring all in
turn...

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:43:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working.

Did they trip the breaker that time they stopped working? Did you turn
the lights to the off position, even though they weren't on, then reset
the breaker and just not turn those lights on again?

If not, what did happen then?

I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Was the maker of the fixture saying there had been a problem with the
lights for a while? (Maybe this doesn't matter much since they said
there was a problem with yours.)

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

The two lights are meant to go on at the same time, right?

So if there were a short in the light you did NOT change, that would
account for the breaker tripping this last time.

If I were in your shoes, I'd disconnect the black wire going to the
black wire of that second light. I'd put a wire nut on each
disconnected wire, in case they end up being left unconnected.

Then I'd reset the breaker and see if the one you replaced works.

If it does, I'd replace the second one like you did the first.

If it doesn't, I guess I'd recommend an electrician.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

Exactly.

But a short could have developed in one or both lights. Most likely
only one, and not the one you replaced, if the one you didn't replace
still has a short.

If replacing the second one fixes things, there's a good chance the
first one you removed was okay, This might matter if you still have
it.