On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:51:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Maybe a stupid question. But I'm not a 100% sure. When people say shorted..=

Many people misuse the words short and shorted. They use them for
almost any electrical problem, but especially they use them for
'opens"** I haven't noticed people here doing that, but it's very
common.

Does this mean red on white or not wired correctly?

It's more specific than that. It might be red connected to white,
but only if that meets my definition which follows. And certainly if
two wires are connected so as to make a short, they weren't wired
correctly, but lots of mistakes are not shorts.

A short circuit is one where the current can flow from the hot to the
neutral or to the ground without passing through all of the load. Or
you can have a short which bypasses any of the other parts of a circuit.
See below****

The load is the lightbulb or the motor, or the heating elements in a
toaster, etc. The load is the reason you are using the electricity in
the first place. For light, motion, heat, etc.

Lets use an example where the load is a string of Xmas tree lights, the
old kind iiuc where if one light burned out, they all went out. You
could have a short circuit (a short) right at the plug, if the
insulation dried out and one of the wires was touching the other. Then
nothing would go to the lights, the circuit would be shorter than it
should be, (Get it? That's why it's called a short circuit.) The
current would go a quarter inch out from the plug to where the
insulation has fallen off, to the other wire, and right back into the
plug and the house wiring. It would normally blow a fuse or tirp a
breaker.

Or one lightbulb socked could be shorted. Maybe someone stuffed tinfoil
in where the bulb went. Because he didnt have any more good bulbs and
so none of them would light. That is a short. If only one bulb out
of say 40 is bypassed, the voltage will go up a little for all the other
bulbs, they will burn out a little faster, but until then they will be a
little brighter. If otoh there were only 10 bulbs, and now there are 9,
the voltage on each bulb will be 10/9ths what it's supposed to be.
Insteal of about 11 volts (110/10) it will be a little over 12 volts.
That might work too, but the bulbs will be brigher and burn out faster.
This is also a short.

Let's say somehow, you ended up bypassing 20 of the 40 bulb string.
That will double the voltage across each bulb, double the current
through the wire, make the wire get much hotter, and if the bulbs
somehow don't burn out, you'll have a heat hazard from the hot wire.
That's still a short, even though it's not bypassing the entire load. it
doesn't have to bypass the entire load, just any part of it, and it's a
short. Some shorts are very dangerous, others are not, but very very
few are desirable. The only one I can think of is the first example of
shorting out only one lightbulb socket in a string of 40.


****You can also have a short that bypasses, for example, the switch.
If a switch breaks and it is closed (the On), it's as if the switch is
shorted. Or if someone connects both of the wires to the switch to the
same screw on the switch, he's shorted out the switch. Not as big a
problem as shorting the load, but the switch won't work anymore to turn
the thing off. If the switch is broken but it's not On, it's Off,
that's called an Open. If someone takes a short wire with alligator
clips on each end and clips one to each screw on the switch, he's
shorted out the switch. People do this to bypass the switch to see if
the light etc. will turn on. If it turns on when the switch is shorted
but not when the switch is On, the switch is broken. (Not that that
applies to you. I don't think so.)

You could have a short that bypasses an antenna. If you're using
stranded flat line wire and a stray strand touches the other conductor
where it's not insultated, the two strands will be connected and almost
the entire signal from the antenna will go through the short and not to
the radio or tv. "The antenna is shorted". If one of the wires to the
antenna is broken, the antenna circuit is open.

YOu could short out the output of an amplifier. That's why there is a
plastic ridge (didn't used to be) between the two screws where one
attaches the speakers, so the strands of one side of the speaker wire
won't touch the other side. If you short out the amplifer output,
you'll blow the fuse if it has an output fuse, and if not, you'll burn
out the output transistor, and maybe the transistor before that, if
there is direct coupling. You may burn them out before the fuse blows,
even if there is a fuse.

Thanks guys for the help !

**What is an open? It is two things that should be connected but are
not, or two parts on the inside of something that should be connected
but are not. For example, in a simple light bulb, when the filament
burns out, breaks, the circuit is open, or has an open, and the bulb is
open. If you cut through a wire with a saw, you make an open.


Don't confuse open and shorted and everything else.

Top posting because no particular line below is relevant.

I didn't pay any attention to your two 3-way switches.

First 3-way switches are really two-way, as you problably know. They
are called 3-way because they have three screws and require 3 wires to
get full benefit from them. Just a factoid.

It's possible to put a 3-way switch half-way between up and down, and in
that case, no position of the other switch will turn things on.

I relally doubt if that coulld still be the case after all your fiddlin'
and it woudn't account for the pop. But I thought I should mention
it.




On Sun, 02 Feb 2014 05:45:36 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:43:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

About a year ago I had two recessed lights installed in the hallway. They were previously regular lights, so I was told it was just cutting a hole out and hooking the wiring back up. He also changed the switches to the newer flat switches. They worked for 2 months until one day it just stopped working.

Did they trip the breaker that time they stopped working? Did you turn
the lights to the off position, even though they weren't on, then reset
the breaker and just not turn those lights on again?

If not, what did happen then?

I'm not too keen working with electricity.

Just a few weeks ago I called the actual makers of the recessed lighting and they said that it "sounds" like a problem with both of the actual units internal components. Seemed a little weird to me, i thought it had something to do with the wiring. But I got the new units, thinking that will an easy fix on my side. Since all the wiring is set up I could just match the connections with the new identical unit.

Was the maker of the fixture saying there had been a problem with the
lights for a while? (Maybe this doesn't matter much since they said
there was a problem with yours.)

Switched off the power to the hallway, tested making sure I turned off the right breaker. Then installed white to white / black to black / ground to ground on one of the units, leaving the other one alone. Put a light in, and as soon as I switched on the breaker, I heard a pop near the actual light. And the breaker popped to the middle position. Looked up online which said it's in the neutral position after being popped.

The two lights are meant to go on at the same time, right?

So if there were a short in the light you did NOT change, that would
account for the breaker tripping this last time.

If I were in your shoes, I'd disconnect the black wire going to the
black wire of that second light. I'd put a wire nut on each
disconnected wire, in case they end up being left unconnected.

Then I'd reset the breaker and see if the one you replaced works.

If it does, I'd replace the second one like you did the first.

If it doesn't, I guess I'd recommend an electrician.

I checked the other light and it is black to black / white to white / ground to ground. I didn't think it could be a problem with the wiring since it for sure worked for a couple months.

Exactly.

But a short could have developed in one or both lights. Most likely
only one, and not the one you replaced, if the one you didn't replace
still has a short.

If replacing the second one fixes things, there's a good chance the
first one you removed was okay, This might matter if you still have
it.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 15:25:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:



When I took off the connections on the one fixture, it was white on white, black on black, and ground on ground. I would have noticed if it was mixed. and I didn't even touch the other light.

As I said, maybe it's that other light that is broken. Disconnect the
black wires and try the first replaced light again.

I just don't understand how it could have worked and then all of sudden stop