Die young.

On 12/13/2013 04:28 AM, Daring Dufas : Hypocrite TeaBillie on welfare wrote:
Die young.



and leave a good looking corpse!

I'd not want to replace the plan. I'd want to
repeal the ACA entirely and let the free market
do what it does so well.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, December 13, 2013 7:20:39 AM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd not want to replace the plan. I'd want to

repeal the ACA entirely and let the free market

do what it does so well.



--

.

Christopher A. Young

Learn about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

Offer **** poor coverage and drop you once you get ill ?

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'd not want to replace the plan. I'd want to
repeal the ACA entirely and let the free market
do what it does so well.


So long as the industry enjoys political and legal advantage there is no
free market. Just look at the effects of ERISA on insurance.

On 12/13/2013 4:28 AM, Daring Dufas : A Sock Of Killer Loon wrote:
Die young.


Killer Loon, living proof that human females should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD

On 12/13/2013 7:44 AM, Daring Dufas : A Sock Of Killer Loon wrote:
Offer **** poor coverage and drop you once you get ill ?

Killer Loon, living proof that human females should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD

"Daring Dufas : Hypocrite TeaBillie on welfare" wrote in message news:ea69c4e9-92a6-4485-9b6d-
Offer **** poor coverage and drop you once you get ill ?


The way of the trade since the "Great Society", asswipe. Shrillary and
Ted "the Great Swimmer" Kennedy sure managed to fubar things in the 90's.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'd not want to replace the plan. I'd want to
repeal the ACA entirely and let the free market
do what it does so well.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

The free market cares little about those with little/no money and even those
who have money and don't spend it like many older people.

Tomsic

"=" wrote in message ...


The free market cares little about those with little/no money and even those
who have money and don't spend it like many older people.

Tomsic



My hammer cares little about nails, or wood, but when used as intended does exactly
what it is supposed to do. The free market is a concept that morons mess with
expecting it to be something that it is not. One must not confuse the free market
with capitalism. One should keep the government out of both.

On 12-13-2013, 14:29, Robert Green wrote:
medical care*before* it happens? A recent New York state study proved
without a doubt that hospitals charge whatever they damn well feel like
charging and that you can only find out what things cost AFTER you've

Nonsense. In an emergency, you may be stuck, but otherwise, you have
every right to inquire and/or negotiate a price.

Sure, they also have the right to refuse, but then you have the right to
go find a provider who isn't stupid.

I'm posting this after working in healthcare since 2004, more than half
of that time in the financial areas.

--
Wes Groleau

He that is good for making excuses, is seldom good for anything else.
€” Benjamin Franklin

On 12/13/2013 6:11 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 12-13-2013, 14:29, Robert Green wrote:
medical care*before* it happens? A recent New York state study proved
without a doubt that hospitals charge whatever they damn well feel like
charging and that you can only find out what things cost AFTER you've

Nonsense. In an emergency, you may be stuck, but otherwise, you have
every right to inquire and/or negotiate a price.

Sure, they also have the right to refuse, but then you have the right to
go find a provider who isn't stupid.

I'm posting this after working in healthcare since 2004, more than half
of that time in the financial areas.


Wes, isn't it true that hospitals are often buried under tons of
government paperwork, rules and regulations? Not just federal
government but different state and local requirements? I imagine that a
hospital in New York City will have much higher operating costs than one
in Gadsden, Alabama because of so much more government "oversight". o_O

TDD

I doubt ********s like Alabama even has hospitals ..they just recently discovered electricity and running water.

On 12/13/2013 8:28 PM, Daring Dufas : Hypocrite TeaBillie on welfare wrote:
I doubt ********s like Alabama even has hospitals ..they just
recently discovered electricity and running water.

Killer Loon, living proof that human females should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
On 12-13-2013, 14:29, Robert Green wrote:
medical care*before* it happens? A recent New York state study proved
without a doubt that hospitals charge whatever they damn well feel like
charging and that you can only find out what things cost AFTER you've

Nonsense. In an emergency, you may be stuck,

That's a fairly huge caveat because I'd rate the services of both a surgeon
and a criminal attorney as those most likely to be consumed under a state of
pressure and duress.

but otherwise, you have every right to inquire

Yes, you have every right to inquire about prices but that says absolutely
nothing about whether anyone will actually *give* you a price.

and/or negotiate a price.

I have to laugh about the potential for a heart patient to endure what this
writer suggests:


http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1432002

Call the medical billing office at your hospital and propose a lower rate
for your care. Your negotiation might take dozens of calls, lots of
unreturned voice mails and yield several "no's," but it's worth the time and
effort if the hospital is willing to negotiate.

Dozens of calls, no call backs, and a very big IF at the end. If you
weren't having a heart attack to start with, you would after going through a
process like that.

I know plenty of people who, after a major surgery are flooded with bills
from specialists they never heard of or get stuck with paying seven dollars
for a "mucous absorption device" (a Kleenex). The "ballpark" figure their
doctor gave them often turns out to be a fraction of the real cost. As
someone in healthcare I think you're expecting Joe Patient to have your
expertise when it comes to dealing with hospital business offices. I submit
that's not likely.

What you're writing goes against just about everything I've read or heard
about health care costs:

http://www.cjr.org/the_second_opinio...h.php?page=all

You might want to read that analysis of Steven Brill's taboo shattering
analysis of health care costs and tell us why your impression of health care
is so discordant. It should also be education to Kurt because it explains
how Medicare, a *mostly* single payer systems, has helped forced
skyrocketing medical costs back to earth:

By carefully parsing so many hospital bills from non-Medicare patients and
comparing them to how much less Medicare would have paid, Brill shows what
happens when the government gets involved in the price of care. The price
goes down. One hospital charged a patient $333 for a particular X-Ray.
Medicare pays $23.83. . . . Another major theme of Brill's piece is that
Medicare could do way more to control medical costs if only Congress would
let them is a point he made on ABC's This Week in late February, where he
talked about the legal prohibition on negotiating prices with pharmaceutical
companies. In many other countries drug prices are regulated; America could
save some $94 billion a year if we paid what other countries pay for the
same products, he reported . . ."The real issue isn't whether we have a
single payer or multiple payers. It's whether whoever pays has a fair chance
in a fair market."

And that's the crux of my post - how can SM claim the "free market" will
sort out health care costs when it's clear there's not any semblance of
fairness in the market?"

Then there's the question of how much of serious medical care *is* emergency
related? I'd say more than enough to make comparison shopping meaningless
because of the expertise and time it takes to get an accurate price quote
*before* services are rendered.

A medical problem is not like a kitchen remodel. There's always a fair
sense of urgency involved in the cases I am aware of. You can cherry-pick
elective procedures where there might be some flexibility in pricing, but
when people get sick enough to require $K's of medical care, it usually puts
some serious limits to whether they can make dozens of calls and wait
patiently for call backs that never come before scheduling treatment.

I am really somewhat shocked that with your background you seem unaware that
there have been countless attempts to divine medical costs *before* a
procedure that have ended like this:

http://www.wbur.org/2012/08/02/health-care-shopping

. . . as you said, and you tried to find out in advance how much your MRI
would cost. How did that process go?
Well, I started at Newton-Wellesley Hospital, which is where my doctor sent
me, and it's been six hours since I first started making calls and I don't
have an answer yet. My doctor didn't know, I got transferred to radiology, I
got transferred to billing. Billing said they would call me back. I've
called them back three times now and I just get a machine.

You couldn't even get a ballpark estimate?

I couldn't get a ballpark.

If you'd like, I can find a dozen more such articles with Google in under
two minutes. Probably hundreds in half an hour. It's the rule, not the
exception, that you can't get good pricing information before consuming
health care. It's apparent from simply reading the comments following the
WBUR article. There is no free market in health care. There simply can't
be when prices are nearly impossible to ascertain beforehand, where
conditions of duress and urgency exist and where hospitals have become
specialists in charging $1,000 for a $1 bag of saline solution *if* they can
get away with it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/he...ret-costs.html

Luckily for anyone who has ever needed an IV bag to replenish lost fluids
or to receive medication, it is also one of the least expensive. The average
manufacturer's price, according to government data, has fluctuated in recent
years from 44 cents to $1 . . . Some of the patients' bills would later
include markups of 100 to 200 times the manufacturer's price, not counting
separate charges for "IV administration." And on other bills, a bundled
charge for "IV therapy" was almost 1,000 times the official cost of the
solution.

Sure, they also have the right to refuse, but then you have the right to
go find a provider who isn't stupid.

Oh, yeah, that's exactly what someone experiencing an attack of
diverticulitus, someone with a knee so painful they can't walk that they are
on mind-clouding pain meds or someone having chest pains is going to go
right out and do: hmm, I feel like I am going to die but I'd better take
hours (days?) to comparison shop for the best provider. Unfortunately that
supposes a lot of things that just aren't likely to be true like the
patient's ability to evaluate the differences between healthcare providers
and the willingness of providers to divulge the end cost.

I suspect that because you've been working in this area for so long you're
discounting your own expertise in medical costs and expecting others to act
as if they knew what you know. That's not a reasonable assumption.

Sure, a normal cost-conscious person could call around and perhaps find out
that "Hospitals'R'Us" does the cheapest TKR, but how much digging will they
have to do to find out that H'R'Us doctors have the highest malpractice
rates in the area or that they routinely infect their patients with MRSA,
requiring rehospitalization or they have some sort of sweetheart deal going
with the implant manufacturer (the rebate ethics question in another form)?

When people get sick they're usually quite afraid and that's not an emotion
conducive to making intelligent decisions or doing detailed price shopping
or price negotiating. Especially if they're not subject matter experts. I
think you're pretty far off the mark, Wes, about what the options normal
people have when it comes to trying to deal with health care costs. I think
one of the reasons that medical tourism has grown is because hospitals
abroad WILL give people the total price of a knee replacement surgery BEFORE
they commit.

I'm posting this after working in healthcare since 2004, more than half
of that time in the financial areas.

That makes your position even harder to understand except perhaps in terms
of defending a system that's been financial rewarding to you and brings into
question your objectivity. Sounds like a textbook case of cognitive
dissonance to me: "I am part of the system, I am a good person, therefore
the system *can't* be bad if I am a part of it." But it is bad. Rotten to
the core, in fact. Nothing I've read supports what you say about the
ability to negotiate prices in any meaningful way. I suspect the billing
office's response to "Knees'R'Us" will do it for less is almost always going
to be "Good, let them do your TKR." Of course, the doctor you know and
trust might not have admitting privs at KRU so you'll have to choose a
doctor that you have no history with to get the cheaper price.

Maybe you can point us to some articles or posts that counter the article
that I referred to. I would love to read about all the people who have
successfully negotiated a lower price for serious surgery or have been able
to find out in advance what treating something like a small breast tumor
would cost. (I just helped my neighbor do that and I can swear on a bible
that you just can't get that information no matter HOW hard you try - you
can get nearly an infinite number of providers to promise to call you back
that never do, however). I've seen a number of articles talking about how
to negotiate but they're backed up by very few actual testimonials on
someone actually having done it.

My experience with real people and the dozens (hundreds?) of articles I've
read about people trying to figure out what even elective surgery will cost
them runs very much counter to what you are saying. So does the article
that I quoted. Reading into it further you'll discover how distressed many
health care administrators are to have been forced by Gov. Cuomo to reveal
their pricing information claiming patients "just wouldn't understand the
figures."

--

Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:


You might want to read that analysis of Steven Brill's taboo shattering
analysis of health care costs and tell us why your impression of health care
is so discordant. It should also be education to Kurt because it explains
how Medicare, a *mostly* single payer systems, has helped forced
skyrocketing medical costs back to earth:
Medicare has on numerous occsassions (DRGs, etc,) brought
medical costs back to earth, for periods of time. But they always pick
back up again soon thereafter. So far nothing has done more than slow
the rise for a period of time and then they take off again. Get back
with me in 2-3 years, especially when the economy picks back up.



Then there's the question of how much of serious medical care *is* emergency
related? I'd say more than enough to make comparison shopping meaningless
because of the expertise and time it takes to get an accurate price quote
*before* services are rendered.

So you set up your own definition of how much and don't bother to
let anyone in on it. Sorta the medical debate version of double secret
probation.



That makes your position even harder to understand except perhaps in terms
of defending a system that's been financial rewarding to you and brings into
question your objectivity.
Guffaw. Someone with some actual experience disagrees with you and
you question his objectivity

Sounds like a textbook case of cognitive
dissonance to me:
Me, too , in your case. The problem is that you probably don't get
the overwhelming irony of this statement coming from your fingers.
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:28:29 -0800 (PST), "Daring Dufas : Hypocrite
TeaBillie on welfare" wrote:

I doubt ********s like Alabama even has hospitals ..they just recently discovered electricity and running water.

It's obvious that your ******** doesn't even has grade schools.
Lefties are pretty damned stupid. What's amazing is that they're so
damned proud of it.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:14:23 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"=" wrote in message ...


The free market cares little about those with little/no money and even those
who have money and don't spend it like many older people.

Tomsic



My hammer cares little about nails, or wood, but when used as intended does exactly
what it is supposed to do. The free market is a concept that morons mess with
expecting it to be something that it is not. One must not confuse the free market
with capitalism. One should keep the government out of both.

Huh? The free market IS capitalism. That's the definition of
capitalism.

On 12-14-2013, 06:18, Robert Green wrote:
face. It's very difficult to determine what coverage you'll need
without knowing what medical maladies you're likely to face.

There are none that I'm "likely to face." I know what my
preventive/maintenance care cost last year and the cost of
treating the maladies I do happen to have. I base my decisions
on that, not on the umpteen hundred conditions that I might get, none of
which anyone is "likely" to have. (Defining "likely" as a probability
of more than twenty percent.)

still interested in whether you believe the US health care system resembles
anything like the textbook definition of a "free market."

It was closer to it before the government got involved.

The ACA *should* have been an extension of Medicare, not the fiasco that

Medicare and Medicaid pay LESS than our costs. The commercials pay
enough over to compensate. Move enough people off of commercials and
onto a government system, and see how many providers decide to find a
new career.

it's turned into. I know a lot of doctors and not one of them is happy with
the amount of extra work that dealing with a plethora of private insurers
AND Medicare/Medicaid requires. A recent article I read said that

Yes, it's hard for small outfits, but it's routine for a large one.
They're not as different as you seem to think. The "Explanation Of
Benefits" that individuals get in a zillion different formats is a
single nearly identical electronic format for us (the providers) from
almost all companies.

system that requires a dedicated employee to plow through the endless (and
different) paperwork of dozens of insurers possibly be efficient?

It's maybe five percent paperwork. A law called HIPAA forces most
payers and providers to use standardized alectronic formats, and there
are so many software packages that read those formats that anyone who
tries to sell one that doesn't will not succeed.

very minor) additional fees and co-pays? I'll be sure to try to use it in
the future even if it means using ten words where two will do. Will

Define your terms as you use them, and ignore the people who pretend not
to understand.

Also, for my edification, give us some feedback on my main proposition: that
the US health care system cannot be considered a free market for the simple
reason that the prices of the product are unknown until after they are
consumed and vary wildly depending on who is actually footing the bill - the
uninsured, private insurers, Medicare, Tricare, etc. I don't think it's a

Again, if you want to know our cost for a procedure, all you have to do
is ask. And if you want to know how much your insurance will cover,
we'll tell you that, too--and thanks to HIPAA and X12N, it usually takes
about five minutes to do so.

AND, we know without even asking what they won't cover, and if we don't
know, we assume they MIGHT not. We explain that to the patient and if
they want to do it anyway, they sign a form acknowledging that we
explained it and that they chose to do it anyway.

--
Wes Groleau

Pat's Polemics
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett

On 12-13-2013, 20:59, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Wes, isn't it true that hospitals are often buried under tons of
government paperwork, rules and regulations? Not just federal
government but different state and local requirements?

It's not quite as bad as your wording makes it sound like.
But it's still pretty bad. The part that irritates ME the
most is treatment GUIDELINES created by the profession but
then turned into DOGMA by the government (or by the profession).

These "standards of care" allow (sometimes REQUIRE) providers
to treat stereotypes instead of patients.

http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.org/WWW.php?itemid=876

--
Wes Groleau

€œTo know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying
Amen to what the world tells you you should prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.€�
€” Robert Louis Stevenson

On 12-14-2013, 09:41, Robert Green quoted:
http://www.wbur.org/2012/08/02/health-care-shopping

. . . as you said, and you tried to find out in advance how much your MRI
would cost. How did that process go?
Well, I started at Newton-Wellesley Hospital, which is where my doctor sent
me, and it's been six hours since I first started making calls and I don't
have an answer yet. My doctor didn't know, I got transferred to radiology, I
got transferred to billing. Billing said they would call me back. I've
called them back three times now and I just get a machine.

You couldn't even get a ballpark estimate?

I couldn't get a ballpark.

Well, maybe my experience is atypical.

WE answer such questions truthfully.

And we have pre-determined discounts for the uninsured
or those who pay in advance.

And we write off millions as charity, and even more as uncollectible.

--
Wes Groleau

€œIt is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it
goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the
world.€�
€” Thomas Jefferson

wrote in message ...


Huh? The free market IS capitalism. That's the definition of
capitalism.

Close.

I am being lazy, today. So:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

The two are often closely linked. However, in today's society, and the rampant
advent of socialistic/Marxist re-definition, it is prudent to differentiate
between the two as a means to divide and conquer the commie hoard.

They will invariably come back to "government must control everything". Yet,
when asked about their own use of capitalism, after they rant about the evils
it presents, they will insist that they are above the common fray and need not
be subject to supervision, for, after all, they are one of the fold and know
what is best for themselves and everyone else. Rules need not apply, if you will.

Compromise and a happy medium is utter BS with any and all of these types. It is
a one way street that the common man loses on every time they win an inch. Of course
they will mock you. As little as 1998 some of my progressive friends laughed at me
and my warnings of "give an inch and it shall not be given back", and went on about
the foolishness of arguing the "slippery slope". I don't associate with them that
much anymore, and I am certain they are either blind or willfully ignorant on how
far down our country has slid.

Of course, they could just be ****ing stupid. Worse, they cherish the thought in
a masochistic bent.

On 12-14-2013, 12:05, Kurt Ullman wrote:
That makes your position even harder to understand except perhaps in terms
of defending a system that's been financial rewarding to you and brings into
question your objectivity.
Guffaw. Someone with some actual experience disagrees with you and
you question his objectivity

As a matter of fact, I was making 50% more in a prior job and could
double my income if I were to choose to go back to that field.

I don't work for money anymore, as long as I get enough to pay the
bills. After the job I mentioned, I was a substitute teacher for
eighteen months and loved it. Took my current job because subbing
didn't keep up with the utilities and such.

--
Wes Groleau

€œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
€” Larry Wall

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:38:45 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


wrote in message ...


Huh? The free market IS capitalism. That's the definition of
capitalism.

Close.

I am being lazy, today. So:

You lied?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

The two are often closely linked. However, in today's society, and the rampant
advent of socialistic/Marxist re-definition, it is prudent to differentiate
between the two as a means to divide and conquer the commie hoard.

Nonsense. WOrds mean things. You're making a distinction without a
difference.

They will invariably come back to "government must control everything". Yet,
when asked about their own use of capitalism, after they rant about the evils
it presents, they will insist that they are above the common fray and need not
be subject to supervision, for, after all, they are one of the fold and know
what is best for themselves and everyone else. Rules need not apply, if you will.

Sure. Classical leftists. Do what I say... (The key being "what *I*
say")

Compromise and a happy medium is utter BS with any and all of these types. It is
a one way street that the common man loses on every time they win an inch. Of course
they will mock you. As little as 1998 some of my progressive friends laughed at me
and my warnings of "give an inch and it shall not be given back", and went on about
the foolishness of arguing the "slippery slope". I don't associate with them that
much anymore, and I am certain they are either blind or willfully ignorant on how
far down our country has slid.

Of course. But then again, why worry about idiots mocking you? Just
because they've read "Rules or Radicals" (or more likely, their
handler has) doesn't make them any more than idiots (or "useful
idiots").

Of course, they could just be ****ing stupid. Worse, they cherish the thought in
a masochistic bent.

They're followers. Leftists can't think. They've been brainwashed
their whole lives into believing there is a free lunch.

wrote in message ...


You lied?

I'll play Burger King today:

Hold the pickles and extra mayo? You want fries with that?

*rolling eyes*

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 19:21:58 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


wrote in message ...


You lied?

I'll play Burger King today:

Hold the pickles and extra mayo? You want fries with that?

Seems to be a job that you could aspire to.

*rolling eyes*