I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed for future expansion?

I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:35:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed for future expansion?

I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)

Expansion and contraction will happen on the border edges of the
flooring material (1/4 - 3/8" space is allowed on the outside edges).
This helps to prevent the flooring from buckling up. There should be
no gaps where the material mates next to the other piece.

Was this flooring acclimated to the house before it was installed?
Usually boxes are opened and allowed to sit for X number of days.

I agree with your skepticism.

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:35:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with
a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between
boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor
workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps
are needed for future expansion?

I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a
hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the
boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless
the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)

Expansion and contraction will happen on the border edges of the
flooring material (1/4 - 3/8" space is allowed on the outside edges).
This helps to prevent the flooring from buckling up. There should be
no gaps where the material mates next to the other piece.

Was this flooring acclimated to the house before it was installed?
Usually boxes are opened and allowed to sit for X number of days.

I agree with your skepticism.

I agree with the above.

Hopefully, the OP has not paid the contractor yet. He could also call the
manufacturer and ask the same question to get their confirmation which could
be used in dealing with the contractor.

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:30:07 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:35:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with
a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between
boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor
workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps
are needed for future expansion?

I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a
hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the
boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless
the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)

Expansion and contraction will happen on the border edges of the
flooring material (1/4 - 3/8" space is allowed on the outside edges).
This helps to prevent the flooring from buckling up. There should be
no gaps where the material mates next to the other piece.

Was this flooring acclimated to the house before it was installed?
Usually boxes are opened and allowed to sit for X number of days.

I agree with your skepticism.

I agree with the above.

Hopefully, the OP has not paid the contractor yet. He could also call the
manufacturer and ask the same question to get their confirmation which could
be used in dealing with the contractor.


Some times on tongue and groove, the groove can have a sliver left in
it, making it difficult to install (came from the factory - not a
clean groove cut). Toss that piece and then use it for short cuts.
Same with snap lock types.

Always inspect each piece; particularly, if you glue the flooring to
the slab.

OP, can you post a photo on a free image hosting sight with a URL link
back here?

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:07:03 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:35:14 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:



I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed for future expansion?



I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)



Expansion and contraction will happen on the border edges of the

flooring material (1/4 - 3/8" space is allowed on the outside edges).

This helps to prevent the flooring from buckling up. There should be

no gaps where the material mates next to the other piece.



Was this flooring acclimated to the house before it was installed?

Usually boxes are opened and allowed to sit for X number of days.



I agree with your skepticism.

Oren,
Thanks for your reply.

The banded boxes sat stacked 3-up for a full week in our dining room. Both the Lumber Liquidators salesman and the independent installer mentioned acclimating the wood but nobody said anything about opening the boxes.

The installers came back an hour ago and rubbed brown putty into the cracks, filling them. I'm pleased to say that the floor now looks good but I still would have preferred a tighter installation.
Bob

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:45:25 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I agree with your skepticism.

Oren,
Thanks for your reply.

The banded boxes sat stacked 3-up for a full week in our dining room. Both the Lumber Liquidators salesman and the independent installer mentioned acclimating the wood but nobody said anything about opening the boxes.


Opening the boxes allows the material to acclimate to the humidity
before installation, much faster. Not every single box on the day of
delivery, but enough to get the job started for a day. Then open
others on a big job.

The installers came back an hour ago and rubbed brown putty into the cracks, filling them. I'm pleased to say that the floor now looks good but I still would have preferred a tighter installation.
Bob

If you are happy, everybody else is happy.

It looks good from my house.

On 07/24/13 04:45 pm, wrote:

I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed for future expansion?



I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)



Expansion and contraction will happen on the border edges of the

flooring material (1/4 - 3/8" space is allowed on the outside edges).

This helps to prevent the flooring from buckling up. There should be

no gaps where the material mates next to the other piece.



Was this flooring acclimated to the house before it was installed?

Usually boxes are opened and allowed to sit for X number of days.



I agree with your skepticism.

Oren,
Thanks for your reply.

The banded boxes sat stacked 3-up for a full week in our dining room. Both the Lumber Liquidators salesman and the independent installer mentioned acclimating the wood but nobody said anything about opening the boxes.

The installers came back an hour ago and rubbed brown putty into the cracks, filling them. I'm pleased to say that the floor now looks good but I still would have preferred a tighter installation.

The instructions for both brands of bamboo flooring I have used said to
open the boxes and remove the plastic wrap and keep them in the
atmosphere in which they are to be installed for at least a couple of
days AND "shuffle" them so you don't end up with a whole patch of boards
a significantly different color from the rest.

The first lot I installed have noticeable gaps. The later lots I
installed look much better, especially where I used clamps. The most
recent lot were installed by a relative who knew what he was doing and
look perfect.

I assume that yours are glued down, since they are on concrete. Mine are
on a plywood sub-floor, but the instructions recommended gluing rather
than nailing anyway.

Perce

On 7/24/2013 1:45 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:07:03 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:35:14 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:



I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed for future expansion?



I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)



Expansion and contraction will happen on the border edges of the

flooring material (1/4 - 3/8" space is allowed on the outside edges).

This helps to prevent the flooring from buckling up. There should be

no gaps where the material mates next to the other piece.



Was this flooring acclimated to the house before it was installed?

Usually boxes are opened and allowed to sit for X number of days.



I agree with your skepticism.

Oren,
Thanks for your reply.

The banded boxes sat stacked 3-up for a full week in our dining room. Both the Lumber Liquidators salesman and the independent installer mentioned acclimating the wood but nobody said anything about opening the boxes.

The installers came back an hour ago and rubbed brown putty into the cracks, filling them. I'm pleased to say that the floor now looks good but I still would have preferred a tighter installation.
Bob


that's even worse. as the humidity goes down, the boards will shrink,
and the cracks will reappear. the putty will dry. when the boards swell
again when it becomes more humid, the putty will be forced out.

you should be complaining to the owner of the company that their
installers are hacks.

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:07:02 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

The instructions for both brands of bamboo flooring I have used said to
open the boxes and remove the plastic wrap and keep them in the
atmosphere in which they are to be installed for at least a couple of
days AND "shuffle" them so you don't end up with a whole patch of boards
a significantly different color from the rest.

True. The climate in a warehouse is not the same as the house of the
intended install. Give the material some time to adjust.

wrote:

The installers came back an hour ago and rubbed brown putty into the
cracks, filling them. I'm pleased to say that the floor now looks
good but I still would have preferred a tighter installation.

That sounds like bad news to me. I don't see why there should be any gaps
on a new installation that need to be filled with putty.

wrote in message

I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete
slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are
many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few
length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the
installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed
for future expansion?

Not needed for expansion. What do you consider "small" and "many"?

My thoughts without seeing it. Couple of possibilities...

1. The gaps are because boards vary in width (easy to determine). That is a
manufacturing problem but not necessarily a defect, depends on the specs.
The gaps would be at the end joint where a thinner board meets a wider one;
normally, those gaps decrease in width as they get farther from the end
oint.

2. You said it was on slab. How was it fastened? Normally, wood floors are
fastened to a subfloor or - on concrete - to panels nailed to the concrete.
The boards are fastened to the panels or subfloor with cleats (sometimes
staples) driven at a downward angle through the tongue. It is perfectly
normal for some of the flooring boards to be less than perfectly straight
but the force of the nailing should pull them tight; if it doesn't, the
installer should take other steps (clamps, etc.) to get them in straight. I
would say that gaps at end joints are definitely from sloppy work, maybe
those parallel to the boards too..

Was your floor mechanically fastened? If so, I would say the installer cut
corners. If not - if some sort of mastic was used - I'd say it wasn't
holding well.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

wrote in message ...
I had 3/8" thick Bellawood installed today over concrete slab (with a skim coat of a prep material). There are many small gaps between boards side-by-side, plus a few length-wise. Is this simply poor workmanship or is the installer correct when he says that these gaps are needed for future expansion?

I am a bit dubious of his claim because we are in the middle of a hot and humid summer in the Gulf South. It seems to me that the boards should be as expanded as they'll ever get right now. (Unless the levies are breached and New Orleans floods again.)

===

Poor workmanship, no question.

Not the same thing, but I had a damaged hardwood floor about 3 ft x 3ft. The floor was 35 years old and that width of the stock slats was not available. The installer made custom pieces and they matched perfectly with no spaces. Now, after 20 years, you still cannot tell it had been patched. Cost was around $150 total.

I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly surmised that the boards were glued down. Other than a discount, I don't think there is anything to be done at this point but live with it.

This little project has taught me that if I want the job done right, I need to learn about these details in advance and closely supervise the installers. This isn't what I had in mind when I pay someone who is supposed to be an expert to do work for me.

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 6:25:56 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
wrote:



The installers came back an hour ago and rubbed brown putty into the

cracks, filling them. I'm pleased to say that the floor now looks

good but I still would have preferred a tighter installation.



That sounds like bad news to me. I don't see why there should be any gaps

on a new installation that need to be filled with putty.

+1

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:12:09 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm the OP.

Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly surmised that the boards were glued down. Other than a discount, I don't think there is anything to be done at this point but live with it.



That depends on how bad it is and if you want to do something about it.
If you want to do something about it, first step is to get the owner or
a manager of the company that installed it out to look at it. If they
won't resolve it, next you could try the BBB. And there is always small
claims court.

If you post some pics on one of the pic hosting websites with a link,
we'd have a better idea of what it looks like. But having to put putty
in gaps in a new floor doesn't sound right.





This little project has taught me that if I want the job done right, I need to learn about these details in advance and closely supervise the installers. This isn't what I had in mind when I pay someone who is supposed to be an expert to do work for me.

Sad, but true. When I'm planning to do something like this, I always
find out a reasonable amount about what needs to be done, via
manufacturer;s websites, install instructions, here, etc. It's very
useful in determining which possible contractors are honest and know
what they are doing from the skunks.

wrote:
I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the installers didn't do
good work. And you've correctly surmised that the boards were glued
down. Other than a discount, I don't think there is anything to be
done at this point but live with it.

This little project has taught me that if I want the job done right,
I need to learn about these details in advance and closely supervise
the installers. This isn't what I had in mind when I pay someone who
is supposed to be an expert to do work for me.

I don't think that you should just give up and take the hit on this one.

You bought the materials at Lumber Liquidators and I am guessing that you
arranged for the installation through Lumber Liquidators. If that's the
case, I would start with LL, especially if I paid LL for the materials and
for the installation.

Personally, I think they can take the floor up and replace it at no cost to
you even though it is already glued down to the concrete. Or, if you have
enough room to add additional height to the new floor (meaning under doors,
figuring in higher thresholds, the height up to the bottom step or down from
the top step if you have stairs leading up or down from that room, etc) --
then they could just add a new floor on top of this one at no cost to you.

If you bought the materials at LL, but hired your own installer apart from
LL and not through them, then I think LL would be off the hook regarding the
cost of the materials. In that case, I think you would have to recover all
of the replacement cost from the installer.

I think you said you are in Louisiana. If so, check out whatever home
improvement license laws they may have etc. A very quick check on my part
looks like those laws may not be very strong in terms of protecting the
consumer, but check anyway. I doubt that the BBB would do anything.

If you paid by credit card, contest the charge or charges on your credit
card while you are dealing with LL and/or the contractor.

The bottom line is that you did not get what you paid for -- a new hardwood
floor that was installed on a workmanlike manner. You pointed out the
problem while it was happening, both here and with the contractor, and the
contractor did come out and saw the problem. They even told you first that
the gaps were needed for expansion which is completely bogus.

Of course, keep good records of everything, and if you don't get full
satisfaction check around for lawyers in your area that specialize in
construction law. In some states, that laws are written in a way that would
allow an attorney to take the case on a contingency basis and recover all of
the legal fees and costs from the defendant(s).

Good luck.

wrote in message


I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the
installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly
surmised that the boards were glued down.

Under the circumstances, I think saying they did not do good work is way
harsh. The fact is, not all the boards are going to be arrow straight; some
of them are going to have crook. In order to get mating edges, crooked
boards need to be bent and afixed in that position. I've never glued a
floor but I can't see how doing so could keep a board bent to straight from
returning to its former crook.
____________________

Other than a
discount, I don't think there is anything to be done at
this point but live with it.

If they did nothing wrong, you are not entitled to a discount.
_____________________

This little project has taught me that if I want the job
done right, I need to learn about these details in
advance and closely supervise the installers.

*THAT* I agree with Not so sure about the supervising though...ask
questions/express concerns, yes; nit pick/look over their shoulders,
no...you want them to like you, not consider you a PITA.
_______________________

This isn't what I had in mind when I pay someone who is supposed to
be an expert to do work for me.

I agree with that too. I would expect them to advise me of any potential
problems. In this case, asking, "Will there be any gaps between the
boards?" would have been a good question to ask before commiting to the
work. Depending on the answer, then you might be entitled to a new floor;
especially if the answer had been written into the contract.

Your problems reinforce my belief that the only wood floor I would ever want
is 3/4 solid wood, sanded and finished on site.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 7/25/2013 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message


I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the
installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly
surmised that the boards were glued down.

Under the circumstances, I think saying they did not do good work is way
harsh. The fact is, not all the boards are going to be arrow straight; some
of them are going to have crook. In order to get mating edges, crooked
boards need to be bent and afixed in that position. I've never glued a
floor but I can't see how doing so could keep a board bent to straight from
returning to its former crook.

i've had a glued on concrete hardwood floor. it came out without any
cracks and didn't need filling anywhere. i would say that now-a-days,
most all machine made hardwood floor planks are arrow straight. an
installer should know enough to work around them, on the rare board that
wasn't.

____________________

Other than a
discount, I don't think there is anything to be done at
this point but live with it.

If they did nothing wrong, you are not entitled to a discount.
_____________________

This little project has taught me that if I want the job
done right, I need to learn about these details in
advance and closely supervise the installers.

*THAT* I agree with Not so sure about the supervising though...ask
questions/express concerns, yes; nit pick/look over their shoulders,
no...you want them to like you, not consider you a PITA.
_______________________

This isn't what I had in mind when I pay someone who is supposed to
be an expert to do work for me.

I agree with that too. I would expect them to advise me of any potential
problems. In this case, asking, "Will there be any gaps between the
boards?" would have been a good question to ask before commiting to the
work. Depending on the answer, then you might be entitled to a new floor;
especially if the answer had been written into the contract.

Your problems reinforce my belief that the only wood floor I would ever want
is 3/4 solid wood, sanded and finished on site.

"chaniarts" wrote in message

On 7/25/2013 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message


I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the
installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly
surmised that the boards were glued down.

Under the circumstances, I think saying they did not do
good work is way harsh. The fact is, not all the
boards are going to be arrow straight; some of them are
going to have crook. In order to get mating edges,
crooked boards need to be bent and afixed in that
position. I've never glued a floor but I can't see how
doing so could keep a board bent to straight from
returning to its former crook.

i've had a glued on concrete hardwood floor. it came out
without any cracks and didn't need filling anywhere. i
would say that now-a-days, most all machine made hardwood
floor planks are arrow straight. an installer should know
enough to work around them, on the rare board that wasn't.

I have no doubt that they start out straight but that doesn't mean they will
stay that way in the time from mill to laying.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:15:16 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

i've had a glued on concrete hardwood floor. it came out
without any cracks and didn't need filling anywhere. i
would say that now-a-days, most all machine made hardwood
floor planks are arrow straight. an installer should know
enough to work around them, on the rare board that wasn't.

I have no doubt that they start out straight but that doesn't mean they will
stay that way in the time from mill to laying.

I've opened many boxes of wood flooring (a couple hundred or more).

Only on a rare occasion was a plank faulty from the factory, then it
was a minor flaw. YMMV

There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 12:08:12 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.


Use and salvage those for shorter cuts - done all the time.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg


That is _ridiculous_. The tongue is not in the groove for the most
part. I thought the gaps would be smaller. Dang.

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg

If that was my floor I would be eating a box of nails by now.

A damn shame the installer - never mind!

On 07/25/13 03:08 pm, wrote:
There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg

That looks far worse than my first effort. My subsequent ones were
considerably better still.

Perce

On 7/25/2013 12:08 PM, wrote:
There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg


this was the guy's first flooring job?

i'd complain to the company owner.

In ,
belched:
There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There
were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some
boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap
unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg

I hope you paid by credit card and not cash.
I'd tell them to send another installer and completely replace the floor or
they will be talking to my attorney
Both pictures are totally unacceptable, period!
Even the putty is the wrong color.
There is no way that even the manager could say that that is
acceptable(unless he's an idiot)
Good luck

wrote:
There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There
were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some
boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap
unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg .

That looks really bad to me. Be sure to take lots of pictures, including
any gaps where the ends were supposed to match up. There is no doubt in my
mind that they were supposed to bang the boards so they fit tight against
each other and didn't do that. Then they tried to B.S. you when you asked
about the gaps by talking about a need for the product to "expand".

Did you get the installers through Lumber Liquidators or did you hire your
own installers without going through LL?

Did you pay the installers directly, or did you pay LL for the installation?

I am assuming that the flooring that they put down is regular 3/4-inch
hardwood, correct? Could you post the exact product that they installed --
meaning the brand, color, and exactly what it says on the box or in the LL
catalog?

And, have they all been paid in full? If so, and you paid with a credit
card, you may still have the recourse of disputing the bill until everything
gets resolved with LL and the installer.

Good luck.

TomR wrote:

I am assuming that the flooring that they put down is regular 3/4-inch
hardwood, correct? Could you post the exact product that they
installed -- meaning the brand, color, and exactly what it says on
the box or in the LL catalog?

Sorry, I just realized that you said that it is 3/8-inch Bellawood.

Here are two photos that I found showing a "during" and "after" glue down
installation over concrete:
http://images2.powerreviews.com/medi...50240_full.jpg

http://images2.powerreviews.com/medi...50241_full.jpg .

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:15:16 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
"chaniarts" wrote in message



On 7/25/2013 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:

wrote in message





I'm the OP.

Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the

installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly

surmised that the boards were glued down.



Under the circumstances, I think saying they did not do

good work is way harsh. The fact is, not all the

boards are going to be arrow straight; some of them are

going to have crook. In order to get mating edges,

crooked boards need to be bent and afixed in that

position. I've never glued a floor but I can't see how

doing so could keep a board bent to straight from

returning to its former crook.



i've had a glued on concrete hardwood floor. it came out

without any cracks and didn't need filling anywhere. i

would say that now-a-days, most all machine made hardwood

floor planks are arrow straight. an installer should know

enough to work around them, on the rare board that wasn't.



I have no doubt that they start out straight but that doesn't mean they will

stay that way in the time from mill to laying.


They should if it's quality flooring from a reputable manufacturer.
When you buy God knows what, from God knows who, then maybe not.
I haven't seen a new floor installed that needed putty to fill in
gaps. Seems there would be a lot of ****ed off consumers if that
were typical.

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:22:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg .

That looks really bad to me. Be sure to take lots of pictures, including
any gaps where the ends were supposed to match up. There is no doubt in my
mind that they were supposed to bang the boards so they fit tight against
each other and didn't do that. Then they tried to B.S. you when you asked
about the gaps by talking about a need for the product to "expand".

I'd like to know if the installer even attempted to pop a chalk line
on the pad. Trying to keep square.

The gaps will travel, get wider if not kept reasonably square.

OP, post a photo of the ends, that will likely have a gap, too.

Not square...

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:15:16 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"chaniarts" wrote in message

On 7/25/2013 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message


I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the
installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly
surmised that the boards were glued down.

Under the circumstances, I think saying they did not do
good work is way harsh. The fact is, not all the
boards are going to be arrow straight; some of them are
going to have crook. In order to get mating edges,
crooked boards need to be bent and afixed in that
position. I've never glued a floor but I can't see how
doing so could keep a board bent to straight from
returning to its former crook.

i've had a glued on concrete hardwood floor. it came out
without any cracks and didn't need filling anywhere. i
would say that now-a-days, most all machine made hardwood
floor planks are arrow straight. an installer should know
enough to work around them, on the rare board that wasn't.

I have no doubt that they start out straight but that doesn't mean they will
stay that way in the time from mill to laying.
Engineered hardwood generally will - and I would not use anything
BUT engineered hardwood on a concrete slab. Using solisd hardwood on
a concrete slab, glued down, is just asking for more trouble than it's
worth.

Just my opinion.

In ,
belched:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:15:16 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"chaniarts" wrote in message

On 7/25/2013 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message


I'm the OP.
Most of the replies confirm my opinion that the
installers didn't do good work. And you've correctly
surmised that the boards were glued down.

Under the circumstances, I think saying they did not do
good work is way harsh. The fact is, not all the
boards are going to be arrow straight; some of them are
going to have crook. In order to get mating edges,
crooked boards need to be bent and afixed in that
position. I've never glued a floor but I can't see how
doing so could keep a board bent to straight from
returning to its former crook.

i've had a glued on concrete hardwood floor. it came out
without any cracks and didn't need filling anywhere. i
would say that now-a-days, most all machine made hardwood
floor planks are arrow straight. an installer should know
enough to work around them, on the rare board that wasn't.

I have no doubt that they start out straight but that doesn't mean
they will stay that way in the time from mill to laying.
Engineered hardwood generally will - and I would not use anything
BUT engineered hardwood on a concrete slab. Using solisd hardwood on
a concrete slab, glued down, is just asking for more trouble than it's
worth.

Just my opinion.

That is also the opinion of anyone that knows anything about flooring.
You CANNOT put solid wood on a slab without a plywood subfloor, period

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 12:08:12 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg
Sure doesn't look like a good job to me. If I did that bad a job I'd
start over, and get some help if I needed it. If I paid someone to do
the job and it turned out like that, they WOULD be doing it over, or
they would NOT get paid.

We "won" a room of high end solid vinyl seamless flooring about 20
years ago. We had to pay the installation. They came in in december
to lay the floor and did not let it warm up properly, so it cracked at
2 corners - just 1/2 to 3/4" cracks out from the corners at the door
frames.. The installation was something like $600, on close to $2000
worth of material.

I called the supplier/installer and told them I wasn't happy with the
job and if the installer was going to be paid, the floor was going to
be redone RIGHT - but I was willing to put up with the slight damage
if I wasn't paying for it. They came out and said I was being more
than fair - and tore up the bill. I still see those cracks every time
I look at the floor, but figure "for nothing" I'm OK with it. (that
was the start of what turned into a $6000 kitchen reno)

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 13:09:19 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 7/25/2013 12:08 PM, wrote:
There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg


this was the guy's first flooring job?

i'd complain to the company owner.
Should be his LAST.

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 3:47:22 PM UTC-5, TomR wrote:
TomR wrote:



I am assuming that the flooring that they put down is regular 3/4-inch

hardwood, correct? Could you post the exact product that they

installed -- meaning the brand, color, and exactly what it says on

the box or in the LL catalog?



Sorry, I just realized that you said that it is 3/8-inch Bellawood.

I don't think it really matters now but the product ID is:
10004797/HUSBT3S38V/1031
BEL Cumaru 3/8x3" Sel

I purchased the wood and installation materials on credit. I hired the installer directly based on a recommendation from Lumber Liq. I already paid him for the demo but not the installation.

This afternoon, I spoke to the LL salesman that I bought the flooring from. He asked me to send him the pictures so he could forward them to the corporate office for evaluation.

In general, the boards were installed reasonably tightly end-to-end. However, after looking around for a couple minutes, I found a 1 mm gap that has not yet been filled:

http://s24.postimg.org/fb3nkw6xh/3_end_to_end.jpg

wrote in message

There is almost a full box leftover from the
installation. There were some bad boards the installers
pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight,
they could have discarded all the bad ones.

Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with
the gap unfilled and one with it filled.

http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg

This is not solid wood? A manufactured "wood product" with wood veneer? If
so, I concur that it is a lousy job, no reason the boards couldn't have been
knocked together. Especially so with the end to end gap.

Question: how far does the gap you photographed extend? All the way to the
next board in the same course? Does it extend along that next board too?

Stick to your guns, you've been wronged.

First rate photos, btw.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 5:32:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 13:09:19 -0700, chaniarts

wrote:



On 7/25/2013 12:08 PM, wrote:

There is almost a full box leftover from the installation. There were some bad boards the installers pointed out to me. If some boards were not straight, they could have discarded all the bad ones.



Some folks suggested I upload pictures. Here is one with the gap unfilled and one with it filled.



http://s24.postimg.org/81iwtv191/1_gap.jpg



http://s14.postimg.org/lxfuh7tc1/2_filled.jpg





this was the guy's first flooring job?



i'd complain to the company owner.

Should be his LAST.

Yeah, there goes any theory that it's some small thing or that
it might be somehow normal or acceptable. This is a disaster, not
even close to acceptable standards of workmanship and
I sure would not be putting up with it. If the supplier had anything
to do with finding the installer, I would contact the supplier and
show them a pic of this mess. IMO, if you went to small claims with
this, you'd easily win. Of course collecting from the skunk who
installed it could be another story.

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:15:17 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

This is not solid wood? A manufactured "wood product" with wood veneer? If
so, I concur that it is a lousy job, no reason the boards couldn't have been
knocked together. Especially so with the end to end gap.

This product is supposed to be solid wood and it appears to be exactly that. What makes you think it's not?

Question: how far does the gap you photographed extend? All the way to the
next board in the same course? Does it extend along that next board too?

It depends. Most of the side-by-side gaps continue to the end of the board. The next board might be flush or have its own gap. Many of the end-to-end gaps narrow towards one of the long edges.

Stick to your guns, you've been wronged.

Thanks for the encouragement. I just took my wife out to dinner to explain the whole mess. To my surprise, she's on board with trying to get the floor replaced, even if this means our living room won't be back to normal for another month.

wrote in message

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:15:17 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

This is not solid wood? A manufactured "wood product"
with wood veneer? If so, I concur that it is a lousy
job, no reason the boards couldn't have been knocked
together. Especially so with the end to end gap.

This product is supposed to be solid wood and it appears
to be exactly that. What makes you think it's not?

At first look, the tongue looked like it was not, looked "strandy". With a
second look, I realize it is wood, just unfinished and considerably
magnified.
____________________

Question: how far does the gap you photographed extend?
All the way to the next board in the same course? Does
it extend along that next board too?

It depends. Most of the side-by-side gaps continue to
the end of the board.

Which means that (most likely) there was no defect or warp in the board, the
installer just didn't care enough to seat it fully.
____________________

The next board might be flush or
have its own gap. Many of the end-to-end gaps narrow
towards one of the long edges.

Which indicates that the end wasn't cut square. Either that or the board is
angled relative to its neighbor on the side in which case there would be a
gap along the side as well at the end.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:22:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:15:17 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

Stick to your guns, you've been wronged.

Thanks for the encouragement. I just took my wife out to dinner to explain
the whole mess. To my surprise, she's on board with trying to get the floor
replaced, even if this means our living room won't be back to normal for
another month.

I paid the installer for the demolition work his guys did but not for the installation. Lumber Liquidators has a corporate adjudication department. The installer and I agreed that if they think the gaps are acceptable, I will pay him for the rest of the job. On the other hand, if they think the gaps are not acceptable, he and I will have to decide how to proceed.

This dispute may end up in small claims court. For those who replied with an opinion that the workmanship was not acceptable, is there anyone who is qualified to be an expert witness by either your experience or your training?

On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 07:41:45 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

This dispute may end up in small claims court. For those who replied with an opinion that the workmanship was not acceptable, is there anyone who is qualified to be an expert witness by either your experience or your training?

Bob,

I can't see this going to court if the folks at LL are being honest
with themselves. The photos speaks volumes as to the poor
workmanship.

Or, cut, paste and send LL all the comments in this thread.