Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

For the dollar a year difference, I go with the premium ethanol free.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Frank Thompson" wrote in message ...
Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

On 5/21/2013 7:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
For the dollar a year difference, I go with the premium ethanol free.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"Frank Thompson" wrote in message ...
Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?


Not sure all premium is ethanol free. Probably depends on area you live in.

Frank Thompson wrote:
Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

I've been just using the gas with for years without a problem.

On 5/21/2013 5:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:
Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?


What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

On May 21, 7:56*am, Frank wrote:
On 5/21/2013 7:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

For the dollar a year difference, I go with the premium ethanol free.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
* *www.lds.org
.
.
"Frank Thompson" wrote in ...
Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

Not sure all premium is ethanol free. *Probably depends on area you live in.

I['m not even sure any premium is ethanol free. None of
it here in the nj/nyc area is. You can't find any gas that is
ethanol free. But if I had the choice, for small engines, no
question I'd buy the alcohol free. There are countless reports
of the problems alcohol causes, so why buy gas with
alchohol, then pay for an additive that *might* help fix it?

On May 21, 8:49*am, IGot2P wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:

Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

Yep.

Harry K

On May 21, 11:49*am, IGot2P wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:

Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

Do a bit of googling and you'll find plenty of problems.
Alcohol attracts water and that in turn leads to corrosion
of carb parts, gunking them up, etc.

Some older units, the alcohol damages
seals, gaskets, etc.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"IGot2P" wrote in message ...

What's the big deal about not using gas
with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers,
etc. without any problems.

Don

Try he http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY

Some stations near me "say" their premium is ethanol free.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
wrote in message news:2a7bdb34-d535-47f3-876b-

I['m not even sure any premium is ethanol free. None of
it here in the nj/nyc area is. You can't find any gas that is
ethanol free. But if I had the choice, for small engines, no
question I'd buy the alcohol free. There are countless reports
of the problems alcohol causes, so why buy gas with
alchohol, then pay for an additive that *might* help fix it?

On 5/21/2013 12:19 PM, wrote:
On May 21, 7:56 am, Frank wrote:
On 5/21/2013 7:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

For the dollar a year difference, I go with the premium ethanol free.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"Frank Thompson" wrote in ...
Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

Not sure all premium is ethanol free. Probably depends on area you live in.

I['m not even sure any premium is ethanol free. None of
it here in the nj/nyc area is. You can't find any gas that is
ethanol free. But if I had the choice, for small engines, no
question I'd buy the alcohol free. There are countless reports
of the problems alcohol causes, so why buy gas with
alchohol, then pay for an additive that *might* help fix it?


I tried to Google it up but did not get a good answer. One site had a
US map with fuel requirements of the various states and regions. It's
one hell of a mess that causes price increases and fuel shortages
throughout the country, e.g. a refinery goes down in California and they
cannot bring in gas from out of state as it does not meet their
requirements. Pure insanity.

I had trouble with alcohol containing gas bringing down my snow thrower
a couple of years ago when I left stabilized gas in it over the summer.
Because ethanol in gas changes its solvent properties engines with seals
not made for such gas may have seals and the like attacked. I don't see
how you can add anything to the gas to change this problem. In my case,
I believe shop replaced seals that caused the problem.

I did not notice til much later that snow thrower manual said not to use
gas with ethanol in it.

On May 21, 12:39*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Try *hehttp://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY


NJ is not even on the list. For NY, nothing I see anywhere
near the nyc area. It's all way upstate.

Well, that otherwise good idea isn't doing much good. Sorry about that.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
wrote in message ...
On May 21, 12:39 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Try hehttp://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY


NJ is not even on the list. For NY, nothing I see anywhere
near the nyc area. It's all way upstate.

On 5/21/2013 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:20:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 21, 11:49 am, IGot2P wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:

Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

Do a bit of googling and you'll find plenty of problems.
Alcohol attracts water and that in turn leads to corrosion
of carb parts, gunking them up, etc.

The problems with E-10 are mostly involved with storing it. Buy it,
burn it and buy more. You will be fine.
If you are storing a boat, power tool or whatever, run it dry and
store it dry. This is months, not years. The biggest reason this seems
to pick on boats and small engines is that they are stored more than
they are used, usually full of gas.




Page I was looking at, lot of info:

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM...y_gas_faq.aspx

They even recommend draining your gas tank if not used for a month and
good storage up to 6 months.

Hell, I'm using some 2 cycle mix that must be 5 years old and still good

On Tue, 21 May 2013 14:37:29 -0400, Frank
wrote:

On 5/21/2013 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:20:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 21, 11:49 am, IGot2P wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:

Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

Do a bit of googling and you'll find plenty of problems.
Alcohol attracts water and that in turn leads to corrosion
of carb parts, gunking them up, etc.

The problems with E-10 are mostly involved with storing it. Buy it,
burn it and buy more. You will be fine.
If you are storing a boat, power tool or whatever, run it dry and
store it dry. This is months, not years. The biggest reason this seems
to pick on boats and small engines is that they are stored more than
they are used, usually full of gas.




Page I was looking at, lot of info:

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM...y_gas_faq.aspx

They even recommend draining your gas tank if not used for a month and
good storage up to 6 months.

Hell, I'm using some 2 cycle mix that must be 5 years old and still good
That will depend on your definition of "good" - and what you started
with. If you started with AvGas, quite possibly actually "good" or if
you stored it in a sealed full can.

On 5/21/2013 4:53 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 14:37:29 -0400, Frank
wrote:

On 5/21/2013 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:20:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 21, 11:49 am, IGot2P wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:

Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

Do a bit of googling and you'll find plenty of problems.
Alcohol attracts water and that in turn leads to corrosion
of carb parts, gunking them up, etc.

The problems with E-10 are mostly involved with storing it. Buy it,
burn it and buy more. You will be fine.
If you are storing a boat, power tool or whatever, run it dry and
store it dry. This is months, not years. The biggest reason this seems
to pick on boats and small engines is that they are stored more than
they are used, usually full of gas.




Page I was looking at, lot of info:

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM...y_gas_faq.aspx

They even recommend draining your gas tank if not used for a month and
good storage up to 6 months.

Hell, I'm using some 2 cycle mix that must be 5 years old and still good
That will depend on your definition of "good" - and what you started
with. If you started with AvGas, quite possibly actually "good" or if
you stored it in a sealed full can.


It's in a 2 gallon can about 1/3 full and had Sta-Bil added. Left over
from when I had a 2 cycle mower but now its 4 cycle but this gas still
runs my string trimmer. Gas looked clear before I tried it in the
string trimmer.

My 4 cycle Honda mower started first time this year with gas left in the
tank from last summer. Simple little shut off valve, probably cost
Honda an extra 25 cents allows engine to be run dry without emptying the
tank.

If my snow thrower had a fuel shut off valve, it might have saved
expense of shop fixing damage caused by leaving gas with ethanol in it.

On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

On May 25, 12:39*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:
or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

The issue is not the octane rating. The issue is that
he claims he has high octane gas available which doesn't
contain alcohol. Alcohol is a real potential problem for
small engines. If I could buy gas for use in small engines
that had no alcohol, I would. But at least here, nyc/nj area,
it's not available.

On 5/25/2013 12:39 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Some brands have higher detergent levels in their Premium,
than in their Regular gas. Shell is one of them.
There's been independent tests posted on the internet back this up.

On May 25, 1:08*pm, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:
On 5/25/2013 12:39 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:
Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Some brands have higher detergent levels in their Premium,
than in their Regular gas. *Shell is one of them.
There's been independent tests posted on the internet back this up.

Then the next logical question would be who needs this detergent
and does it actually do anything or is it marketing hype? I've had
all kinds of cars and put a lot of miles on many of them, didn't
use premium in most of them and had no problems. And given
that most people use regular or one step up, you would think
there would be a lot of problems if this extra detergent was
necessary.

On 05/25/2013 01:08 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:
On 5/25/2013 12:39 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Some brands have higher detergent levels in their Premium,
than in their Regular gas. Shell is one of them.
There's been independent tests posted on the internet back this up.


That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system cleaner
like Techron, and any "top tier" gasoline brand should have enough
detergents in any grade to not require additives unless you're doing a
remedial clean up.

NB: I know that "top tier" is probably more marketing BS and I have no
issues using e.g. Sunoco fuel in my car even though it is not "top tier"
but I didn't want to start another discussion of what is a "good brand"
or not with the inevitable sidebar "it all comes from the same refinery
anyway." Long story short, I feel confident buying gasoline from any
station that is a major national brand.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:07:09 -0700, wrote:

The issue is not the octane rating. The issue is that
he claims he has high octane gas available which doesn't
contain alcohol.

OK. Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

I didn't initially get that from his question though,
so I missed the subtleties involved in the question.

His original question was (cleaned up):
Which is the most economical:
(a) to use an additive for gasoline for small engines
(b) to use standard gasoline with alcohol added
(c) or to use premium fuels with no alcohol added

Out here, as elsewhere, there is no option for no alcohol,
so the distinction between higher and lower AKI indexes
is meaningless (from that perspective).

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:44:11 -0700, wrote:

you would think there would be a lot of problems if this
extra detergent was necessary.

People are stupid. Shell marketing knows that. So they sow
FUD with the "detergent" question. Shell marketing is *not*
stupid!

I once saw a statistic that only 5% of the cars out there
have a compression ratio such that they need the higher
octane (aka "premium") gasoline to prevent knocking
(piezo-electric knock sensors aside).

So, as you said, if 95% of the cars out there were getting
insufficient detergents, you'd think we'd know this by now.

PS: Yes, I do know that when fuel injection first became
popular, the government had to mandate a certain detergent
level for all gasolines; but that was decades ago.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 13:46:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system
cleaner like Techron

Techron is actually a trademark and not a chemical, which is
found on a wide suite of solutions.

However ...

Guess what is in those various formulations?

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!

Yup!
- poly ether amines
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

Check out the MSDS if you don't believe me.

On 05/25/2013 07:33 PM, Danny D wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2013 13:46:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system
cleaner like Techron

Techron is actually a trademark and not a chemical, which is
found on a wide suite of solutions.

However ...

Guess what is in those various formulations?

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!

Yup!
- poly ether amines
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

Check out the MSDS if you don't believe me.


I certainly do believe that, was just pointing out that Techron is
pretty much the most universally well regarded of fuel system cleaners
and is in fact effective.

I also agree that it is likely not necessary unless there's a known
issue with fuel injectors. I do use it in my vehicles as one is a BMW
with the N54 engine and already had one of its second set of fuel
injectors replaced recently, and the other, well, just because I'm a
little on the anal retentive side. A treatment before every oil change
should be more than sufficient for any but the most anal retentive.

nate


replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:39:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?
The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

When grass dust half plugs the cooling fins, lawn mowers run even
hotter than normal.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000 (UTC), Danny D
wrote:

On Sat, 25 May 2013 13:46:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system
cleaner like Techron

Techron is actually a trademark and not a chemical, which is
found on a wide suite of solutions.

However ...

Guess what is in those various formulations?

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!

Yup!
- poly ether amines
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

Check out the MSDS if you don't believe me.
Polyether amines are not present in most gasolines. They are a
component of the additive package in Chevron gasolines, and they are a
very effective fuel system and combustion chamber cleaner.
Chevron Techron was the first product marketed with concentrated PEA -
many companies now have their own version.

And just because Techron is a brand name (not a trademark) does not
make my recommendation any less legitimate - all "techron" contains
some level of PEA -

Nowhere did I intimate Techron was a chemical. It is a brand name fuel
conditioner that actually works. If I said I use PEA nobody would
have a clue what it is or where to get it.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:52:20 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

I certainly do believe that, was just pointing out that Techron is
pretty much the most universally well regarded of fuel system cleaners
and is in fact effective.

Agreed. Those poly ether amines are also good for cleaning the
fuel sending unit of sulfurous deposits, I'm told.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:48:39 -0400, clare wrote:

Polyether amines are not present in most gasolines. They are a
component of the additive package in Chevron gasolines

Googling, I find that Chevron gasoline has 400 ppm polyetheramine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techron

Googling some more, we find that all top-tier gasolines meet a
certain cleanliness standard; this standard does not require PEA -
the manufacturers can meet the standard with *any* detergent package
that works (and apparently many work as it's just soap for gas):
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Googling for whether all gasolines sold in the US have polyetheramine
detergents, and knowing that all those gasolines have detergents,
we find this slide set from Chevron:
http://www.aspalliance.org/presentat...2-04-05-07.pdf

Which intimates succinimides, and not polyetheramines, nor
Polyisobutylene amines, are the most common detergents used in
gasoline to meet the federal detergent standards.

In the same slide set, they say there is a demand for differentiation
via additives, which means that if detergent 1 and detergent 2
work, if you can promote detergent 1 (even though it may be no
better than detergent 2), then you've accomplished that goal of
differentiation (hence, as we all know from Eco 101, you can charge
more to those who fall for the trick).

So, I'd say you are correct that probably not all gasolines have
PEA, but, all gasolines have detergents, and one detergent may
be as good as another - but even if they're the same, Chevron
marketing will try to differentiate their soap from the other
guys' soap - so that they can charge more to the sap who falls
for the switcheroo.

BTW, the slide set intimates that California emission standards
force manufacturers to improve their fuel - and - well - I do
live in California - so - it may be that all gasoline sold in CA
is "top tier" with respect to detergents; but I don't know that
for a fact.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000, Danny D wrote:

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!
- poly ether amines (detergent)
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

I stand corrected by clare in fact, but not in substance.

All gasolines have detergents; and, many detergents work just as
well as others - but most gasolines apparently use succinimides
for detergents, while some use polyetheramines (and others use
polyisobutylene amines).

So, I thank clare for bringing this error to my attention,
and, I'll revise that statement above to say that all gasolines
meet the Federal standard for detergents, and all gasolines
sold in California meet California standards for detergents,
but they use different detergents to meet those standards.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:21:54 -0400, clare wrote:

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -

I agree that anything that makes an engine run with higher
compression, higher heat, or advanced timing (further than
spec), will increase the need for a fuel that resists
detonation better.

Of course, the real solution is to clean the piston heads
of carbon deposits; ensure the cooling fins aren't blocked;
and make sure the timing is to spec - but - if these things
are off - I do agree that an engine can knock.

And knocking, if it gets bad, can ruin engine journals,
among other things.

On May 25, 11:21*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:39:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."





wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

* The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

I don't know who is making the recommendation to use premium.
Not any of the eqpt manufacturers that I've seen. They all say to use
regular gasoline.



..

On Sun, 26 May 2013 05:45:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D
wrote:

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000, Danny D wrote:

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!
- poly ether amines (detergent)
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

I stand corrected by clare in fact, but not in substance.

All gasolines have detergents; and, many detergents work just as
well as others - but most gasolines apparently use succinimides
for detergents, while some use polyetheramines (and others use
polyisobutylene amines).

So, I thank clare for bringing this error to my attention,
and, I'll revise that statement above to say that all gasolines
meet the Federal standard for detergents, and all gasolines
sold in California meet California standards for detergents,
but they use different detergents to meet those standards.

The important thing is, do they work? Seems as though they do from my
experience. I cannot think of a fuel related problems in the past 30+
years.

My car dealer though, tries to sell injector cleaning every year at
$159. If I followed his advice, I'd have ****ed away at least $4500
over the years and only achieved in making the dealer more
profitable. That is why I don't use the dealer for service.

On Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The important thing is, do they work?
Seems as though they do from my experience.

I agree with you, based on my personal experience.

All gasolines sold in my state have the three ingredients that
are sold by the Techron marketing team as an additive package
(i.e., detergent, alcohol, & aromatics).

To me, adding *more* of the same, is not necessarily a good
thing.

It's clear, to me, that "Techron" (which indicates some level
of PEA detergents) is merely a marketing "differentiation"
created solely to garner more money from the consumer.

All gasolines have detergents.
Detergents are cheap.
PEA is cheap.
Techron is not.

On Sun, 26 May 2013 05:45:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D
wrote:

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000, Danny D wrote:

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!
- poly ether amines (detergent)
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

I stand corrected by clare in fact, but not in substance.

All gasolines have detergents; and, many detergents work just as
well as others - but most gasolines apparently use succinimides
for detergents, while some use polyetheramines (and others use
polyisobutylene amines).

So, I thank clare for bringing this error to my attention,
and, I'll revise that statement above to say that all gasolines
meet the Federal standard for detergents, and all gasolines
sold in California meet California standards for detergents,
but they use different detergents to meet those standards.
The difference between PEA and other detergents that work as a
standard fuel detergent, is PEA is the only one that is effective at
REMOVING deposits when used as an additive. The other detergents used
in tier 1 gasolines help PREVENT deposits. PEA, as used in Techron and
a number of other additives is one of the only fuel detergents found
to be very effective at REMOVING deposits - not only in the fuel
system, but both before the intake valve and inside the combustion
chamber.

MMO and Sea Foam and several other lesser products are fairly good at
cleaning the fuel system, and have a reasonable effect on existing
deposits - helping loosen them up and get them out - but nothing close
to the PEA additives.

Some additives that are added to the fuel in distribution work to some
extent to remove deposits as well, but are unsuitable as customer
installed additives.

" wrote:
On May 25, 11:21 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:39:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."





wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

I don't know who is making the recommendation to use premium.
Not any of the eqpt manufacturers that I've seen. They all say to use
regular gasoline.



.

Today I stopped to gas up. Their pumps had two options, diesel or 87 octane
gas. Shell. Strange.

Greg

On Mon, 27 May 2013 00:37:44 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

" wrote:
On May 25, 11:21 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:39:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."





wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

I don't know who is making the recommendation to use premium.
Not any of the eqpt manufacturers that I've seen. They all say to use
regular gasoline.



.

Today I stopped to gas up. Their pumps had two options, diesel or 87 octane
gas. Shell. Strange.

Greg
Around here quite a few dealers have been recommending premium - and
when I worked for an Ariens dealer back in the late sixties we
recommended premium on the mowers - which also required popping the
heads off to remove lead deposits every year or so. Prevented taking
pistons out when (not if) the fins got plugged on a hot day.

Unleaded fuel solved the deposit problem, by and large. Some of the
newer engines are less prone to plugging the fins and shrouds due to
better housing design - but then just when they more or less solve
that problem, they up the Compression Ratio with the OHV engines, and
the fixed jet smog carbs run the engine on the lean side -
particularly with ethanol fuel - so the octane requirements go up
again - making premium fuel , particularly if it is ethanol free like
Canadian Shell Ultra - a sensible option.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:07:09 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 25, 12:39*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:
or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

The issue is not the octane rating. The issue is that
he claims he has high octane gas available which doesn't
contain alcohol. Alcohol is a real potential problem for
small engines. If I could buy gas for use in small engines
that had no alcohol, I would. But at least here, nyc/nj area,
it's not available.

He may make the claim but it makes no sense. AFAIK one effect of
adding alcohol to gas is to raise it's octane value. So it seems far
more likely to me that if there was going to be a gas without alcohol
in it, it would be the regular, not the premium.

On May 26, 9:41*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2013 00:37:44 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:





" wrote:
On May 25, 11:21 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:39:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

* The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

I don't know who is making the recommendation to use premium.
Not any of the eqpt manufacturers that I've seen. *They all say to use
regular gasoline.

.

Today I stopped to gas up. Their pumps had two options, diesel or 87 octane
gas. Shell. Strange.

Greg

*Around here quite a few dealers have been recommending premium - and
when I worked for an Ariens dealer back in the late sixties we
recommended premium *on the *mowers - which also required popping the
heads off to remove lead deposits every year or so. *Prevented taking
pistons out when (not if) the fins got plugged on a hot day.

Lead deposits? The 60s? Good grief! Lead hasn't been in hardly any
gasoline
for what 40 years?




Unleaded fuel solved the deposit problem, by and large. *Some of the
newer engines are less prone to plugging the fins and shrouds due to
better housing design - but then just when they more or less solve
that problem, they up the Compression Ratio with the OHV engines, and
the fixed jet smog carbs run the engine on the lean side -
particularly with ethanol fuel - so the octane requirements go up
again - making premium fuel , particularly if it is ethanol free like
Canadian Shell Ultra - a sensible option.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


As I've said, I'd like to see one example of a MANUFACTURER of
lawn eqpt that recommends using premium fuel.

On 05/27/2013 08:59 AM, wrote:
On May 26, 9:41 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2013 00:37:44 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:





" wrote:
On May 25, 11:21 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:39:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

I don't know who is making the recommendation to use premium.
Not any of the eqpt manufacturers that I've seen. They all say to use
regular gasoline.

.

Today I stopped to gas up. Their pumps had two options, diesel or 87 octane
gas. Shell. Strange.

Greg

Around here quite a few dealers have been recommending premium - and
when I worked for an Ariens dealer back in the late sixties we
recommended premium on the mowers - which also required popping the
heads off to remove lead deposits every year or so. Prevented taking
pistons out when (not if) the fins got plugged on a hot day.

Lead deposits? The 60s? Good grief! Lead hasn't been in hardly any
gasoline
for what 40 years?

Surprisingly, it appears that it was still legal to sell in the US until
1995, although I don't remember seeing it being widely available after
the early 80's. Likely, since road vehicles manufactured after the
early 70's couldn't run it, there wasn't much market for it so it was
slowly phased out as demand dropped.

nate

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