Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


--
Wes Groleau

€œTwo things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
But I'm not so sure about the universe.€�
€” Albert Einstein

On Jan 23, 8:59*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

* *“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
* * But I'm not so sure about the universe.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Albert Einstein

Read the details of the plan...

When I signed up for an AC power use reduction plan there were a
number of choices.

It was while ago so I don't remember the exact details
For like $250 per year they had the right to disable the AC for a
maximum of 3 hours per day for an unlimited number of days.
For like $150 per year they had the right to disable the AC for a
maximum of 3 hours per day for X number of days.

The whole idea is they're paying for option to be able to shed load as
suits their needs.
They're not going to be turning your AC on & off every 5 minutes.

The net result of this program.... your house will be a bit warmer at
times & the compressor might run longer at times to "catch up". YMMV

cheers
Bob

On 1/23/2013 10:07 PM, DD_BobK wrote:
On Jan 23, 8:59 pm, Wes wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
But I'm not so sure about the universe.”
— Albert Einstein

Read the details of the plan...

When I signed up for an AC power use reduction plan there were a
number of choices.

It was while ago so I don't remember the exact details
For like $250 per year they had the right to disable the AC for a
maximum of 3 hours per day for an unlimited number of days.
For like $150 per year they had the right to disable the AC for a
maximum of 3 hours per day for X number of days.

OK, but what's X?

You know the only way for them to reduce the peak is to turn off your AC
when it wants to run...the hottest part of the day.
So, people will just set the thermostat colder so it doesn't get so hot
when it's off.

This only works if it makes you uncomfortable. And we know how people
like being uncomfortable.

The whole idea is they're paying for option to be able to shed load as
suits their needs.
They're not going to be turning your AC on& off every 5 minutes.

The net result of this program.... your house will be a bit warmer at
times& the compressor might run longer at times to "catch up". YMMV

cheers
Bob

On Jan 24, 4:59*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

* *“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
* * But I'm not so sure about the universe.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Albert Einstein

There are several possible reasons but load shedding is the likely
one. It won't damage it.
Of course it will be turned off exactly when you need it most.
The amount of discomfort will depend on how massively your house is
constructed and how well insulated it is.

As a HVAC installer and service guy, my view of how to save power, is to
have the unit professionally cleaned. A dirty AC can and does use a lot of
wasted power. If money permits, upgrading from piston compressor unit to a
rotary compressor also helps.

If you get the remote disable, consider a window AC so you can retreat to a
"safe, AC room" sort of thing while the power company shuts down your
central.

Not many people have the capability, but it would be nice to set up a water
tank and a chiller that runs from the off peak side of a meter. Use chilled
water for cooling during the heat of the day.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"mike" wrote in message
...


You know the only way for them to reduce the peak is to turn off your AC
when it wants to run...the hottest part of the day.
So, people will just set the thermostat colder so it doesn't get so hot
when it's off.

This only works if it makes you uncomfortable. And we know how people
like being uncomfortable.

I'd not want one on my house. Too much risk of them
shutting you off during the hot afternoon when you need
it most. You can be nice to them and raise the the stat
set point temp during hot days. Even nicer, is to have your
AC cleaned by a tech, so it's not wasteful.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


--
Wes Groleau

"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
But I'm not so sure about the universe."
- Albert Einstein

On Jan 24, 3:04*am, mike wrote:
On 1/23/2013 10:07 PM, DD_BobK wrote:





On Jan 23, 8:59 pm, Wes *wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

* * Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
* * *But I'm not so sure about the universe.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Albert Einstein

Read the details of the plan...

When I signed up for an AC power use reduction plan there were a
number of choices.

It was while ago so I don't remember the exact details
For like $250 per year they had the right to disable the AC for a
maximum of 3 hours per day for an unlimited number of days.
For like $150 per year they had the right to disable the AC for a
maximum of 3 hours per day for X number of days.

OK, but what's X?

You know the only way for them to reduce the peak is to turn off your AC
when it wants to run...the hottest part of the day.
So, people will just set the thermostat colder so it doesn't get so hot
when it's off.

This only works if it makes you uncomfortable. *And we know how people
like being uncomfortable.





The whole idea is they're paying for option to be able to shed load as
suits their needs.
They're not going to be turning your AC on& *off every 5 minutes.

The net result of this program.... *your house will be a bit warmer at
times& *the compressor might run longer at times to "catch up". *YMMV

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I had this program for 15 years with the local utility. It
was already installed on the house I bought. I was a bit
suspicous too and didn't buy their claims that it was
unnoticeable. It would seem to me that the AC units
are all turning on and off randomly and the only way
to really effect the system to their benefit is to turn
enough of them off for long enough that it has to effect
the cooling performance. That is for the main use
anyway. I guess there could be times when they have
a crisis of some kind that only lasts 15 mins.

Here they paid some small fee, might have been $35
a year or so. I never noticed any situation where the
AC was impacted though. Could be because I was
working, not home during the day, etc. So, there are
cases where even if it causes the temp to rise slightly,
you would not be impacted by it.

After about 10 years, they changed the plan to one
where they paid I think $2 each time they activated it.
Since they rarely did so, I got even less. Last year
they announced the end of the whole program because
the frequency they use to control it is being converted
by the govt to other uses and the eqpt is now useless.

I guess if I were offered such a plan in the future, I'd
take a look at how much it amounts to in money. If
it passes that test, I'd ask some neighbors that have it
and what their experience has been.

Here in NY I don't think the offer is to shut it off, only to turn it up a couple of degrees. I don't know if they adjust the temp upward regardless of the setting or they mostly just stop people from cooling their houses to 70 on peak power days...

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 23:59:25 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


Wouldn't it be cheaper and just as cost effective to install a
programmable thermostat ?

On Jan 24, 9:05*am, Doug wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 23:59:25 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

Wouldn't it be cheaper and just as cost effective to install a
programmable thermostat ?

No, because the power company can't adjust your thermostat.
The purpose of these utility company programs isn't to save
you energy. It's to shed some big loads when they need to do
it to either avoid having to buy more power at much higher rates,
or having the system brown out on it's own, etc.

And cheaper isn't a factor. The utility installs the power control
for free and then typically pays you for doing so, either yearly
or each time it's activated.

On 1/23/2013 10:59 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


The local utility here calls the program Saver Switch. During periods
of peak demand, they activate the switch and cycle your a/c compressor
on and off every 15 minutes. Like you, I wonder if repeatedly cycling
the compressor that often would be hard on it. I decided I didn't want
to save 15% on my June-Sept. electric bill but maybe end up having to
replace the compressor after a few years.

My sister had the switch put on her a/c unit. She lives in a
multi-level home and discovered that it was difficult to adequately
cool the upper levels when the a/c kept cycling on and off. So she had
them remove the switch.

On 1/23/2013 11:59 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?



It will not damage your AC system, or cause it to wear out or burn out
sooner. When implemented, it actually reduces the # of on/off cycles
per day which if anything might reduce wear and tear on moving parts.

Efficiency? If your asking for an engineering analysis, I can't provide
an answer. If your asking because you're concerned about cost, I'm sure
the value of the rebate you'll receive more than compensates for any
loss in your system's efficiency - assuming there would be any.

The decision to enroll should be based on how much your home will be
occupied on very hot afternoons (working, retired, stay-at-home
lifestyle vs. always out and about, etc)., how tolerant the occupants
are (both medically and temperamentally) to mild heat discomfort, and
how well your home is insulated. A poorly insulated home will warm up
quite quickly after the AC cycle ends. A better insulated home takes
longer to get uncomfortably hot again. There's no single answer that's
best for every homeowner.

On Jan 24, 9:37*am, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 1/23/2013 10:59 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:

Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

The local utility here calls the program Saver Switch. During periods
of peak demand, they activate the switch and cycle your a/c compressor
on and off every 15 minutes. Like you, I wonder if repeatedly cycling
the compressor that often would be hard on it.

Don't know your climate, but in most places with AC
it's not at all unusual for the AC to be doing 15 min
cycles on typical AC days. And the power company is
only adding to that when it's necessary, ie it should not
be enough that it's going to make a difference.

On Jan 24, 12:04*am, mike wrote:
SNIP

OK, but what's X?
You know the only way for them to reduce the peak is to turn off your
AC
when it wants to run...the hottest part of the day.
So, people will just set the thermostat colder so it doesn't get so
hot
when it's off.
This only works if it makes you uncomfortable. And we know how
people
like being uncomfortable.


"X" depends on the details of the program choices offered by the
untility.

It's not about energy savings... it's about power demand reduction
(load shedding).
If the occupant makes the house colder by setting the thermostat lower
in anticipation of AC being disable...so be it.

This behavior shifts the load.. "storing cold" in the house mass for
"later use".
The utility is happy...lower peak load.

They paying for the option to juggle their load in ~10kw increments.

cheers
Bob

On Jan 24, 6:44*am, Peter wrote:
SNIP

There's no single answer that's
best for every homeowner.


Bingo... homeowner must do the eval for their situation.

cheers
Bob

On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 8:59:25 PM UTC-8, Wes Groleau wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely

alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.



Is this truly harmless?



Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?





--

Wes Groleau



“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.

But I'm not so sure about the universe.”

— Albert Einstein

What you should really be asking is: If your A/C suddenly stops working one hot day, how will you know if it just broke down or if the electric company turned it off.

On Jan 24, 12:32*pm, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 8:59:25 PM UTC-8, Wes Groleau wrote:
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely

alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--

Wes Groleau

* *“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.

* * But I'm not so sure about the universe.”

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Albert Einstein

What you should really be asking is: If your A/C suddenly stops working one hot day, how will you know if it just broke down or if the electric company turned it off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On the unit I had, the controller that was mounted on the
condenser had a couple of LEDs. I would think they all
would have similar indicators.

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:05:24 AM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
Wouldn't it be cheaper and just as cost effective to install a
programmable thermostat ?

Sure it would, but then you're depending on the good will of the people to program their thermostats so that their ACs don't run at peak times of the day. People aren't going to do it out of the kindness in their hearts.

Of course, that will never happen. Most people are going to say, "I want to be comfortable," and leave their ACs cranked 24/7. Then they will cry and complain about brownouts and rolling blackouts.

The only effective way to make this work is cash bribes.

On 1/24/13 12:23 PM, wrote:
On Jan 24, 12:32 pm, wrote:

What you should really be asking is: If your A/C suddenly stops
working one hot day, how will you know if it just broke down or if
the electric company turned it off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On the unit I had, the controller that was mounted on the condenser
had a couple of LEDs. I would think they all would have similar
indicators.


The rural power companies here in Nebraska use controllers on
irrigation wells. The LEDs are red and green. Green means the
controller is on and the power is off to the well. Red means the
controller is off and the power is on to the well.
It's a bit confusing. The labels on the controllers are illegible
after a few years.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:26:54 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:05:24 AM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
Wouldn't it be cheaper and just as cost effective to install a
programmable thermostat ?

Sure it would, but then you're depending on the good will of the people to program their thermostats so that their ACs don't run at peak times of the day. People aren't going to do it out of the kindness in their hearts.

Of course, that will never happen. Most people are going to say, "I want to be comfortable," and leave their ACs cranked 24/7. Then they will cry and complain about brownouts and rolling blackouts.

The only effective way to make this work is cash bribes.


Ok but if they could save money does that matter? I use one and of
course there is part of the day my home is slightly less comfortable
if I'm home but later it kicks in and all is well then. I know I've
saved money and prefer one.

If the house warms up, you have to go out and take the panel off, and look
at the LEDs on the box? Not sure that idea sounds good.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

What you should really be asking is: If your A/C suddenly stops working
one hot day, how will you know if it just broke down or if the electric
company turned it off.- Hide quoted text -


On the unit I had, the controller that was mounted on the
condenser had a couple of LEDs. I would think they all
would have similar indicators.

A large part of the male population is red green
color blind.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message
...

The rural power companies here in Nebraska use controllers on
irrigation wells. The LEDs are red and green. Green means the
controller is on and the power is off to the well. Red means the
controller is off and the power is on to the well.
It's a bit confusing. The labels on the controllers are illegible
after a few years.

On 1/24/13 4:15 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
If the house warms up, you have to go out and take the panel off, and look
at the LEDs on the box? Not sure that idea sounds good.


The lights are on the exterior of the controller units I've
seen. I think they're usually on the bottom but I can't remember for
sure. They're easy to see for people who can distinguish red and green.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

wrote in message
...

What you should really be asking is: If your A/C suddenly stops working
one hot day, how will you know if it just broke down or if the electric
company turned it off.- Hide quoted text -


On the unit I had, the controller that was mounted on the
condenser had a couple of LEDs. I would think they all
would have similar indicators.

On Jan 24, 3:14*pm, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:26:54 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:05:24 AM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
Wouldn't it be cheaper and just as cost effective to install a
programmable thermostat ?

Sure it would, but then you're depending on the good will of the people to program their thermostats so that their ACs don't run at peak times of the day. People aren't going to do it out of the kindness in their hearts.

Of course, that will never happen. Most people are going to say, "I want to be comfortable," and leave their ACs cranked 24/7. Then they will cry and complain about brownouts and rolling blackouts.

The only effective way to make this work is cash bribes.

Ok but if they could save money does that matter?

Well yes it does, because you're talking apples and
oranges. The subject of the thread is power rationing
initiated on the extreme peak occasions when the power
company needs to do so. It's implemented with a device
on your AC that THEY need to control.

The programmable thermostat, well everyone knows
what that does and it's not the above.






* I use one and of
course there is part of the day my home is slightly less comfortable
if I'm home but later it kicks in and all is well then.

You could just adjust the thermostat like the rest of us
instead of suffer....



*I know I've
saved money and prefer one.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:54:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

it most. You can be nice to them and raise the the stat
set point temp during hot days. Even nicer, is to have your
AC cleaned by a tech, so it's not wasteful.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lsd.org

lsd.org is a drug website!
Just goes to show what this guy is using!

Anyone who posts about 50 times a day to alt.home.repair, and still cant
figure out how to bottom post on a newsgroup, has to be on drugs.
Some people just dont have a life!

It must be nice getting all that money from welfare, and spending life
in front of a computer. The OP must be about 400lbs overweight from
lack of exercise.

Oh well, I'll leave so the OP can inject another syringe filled with
drugs.

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


--
Wes Groleau


I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement and
a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the four
months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut off the
A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00 PM.
By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo. It got
back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or having
ensured comfort.

On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


--
Wes Groleau


I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.

On 01-24-2013 19:55, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:
I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

The offer here is eight dollars.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

I'm not worried about the comfort. I'm a hardy soul. I was concerned
about whether the eight bucks a month would result in an eight hundred
dollar repair bill in less than a hundred months.

I got one answer of NO, a couple more of "the things don't work" and a
whole heap of programmable thermostats.

Saving money is nice, but they already owe me over a hundred, so it's
certainly not a matter of need.

--
Wes Groleau

€œMissing a train is only painful if you run after it!€�
€” Nassim Nicholas Taleb

On 01-24-2013 23:19, mike wrote:
Yep, that's the issue. To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.

I never need it. But sometimes I want it.

--
Wes Groleau

A pessimist says the glass is half empty.
An optimist says the glass is half full.
An engineer says somebody made the glass
twice as big as it needed to be.

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:58:34 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 01-24-2013 19:55, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:
I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

The offer here is eight dollars.

For $50, a quarter of my highest month's bill, I'd probably do it. For
eight bucks, not a chance.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

I'm not worried about the comfort. I'm a hardy soul. I was concerned
about whether the eight bucks a month would result in an eight hundred
dollar repair bill in less than a hundred months.

I got one answer of NO, a couple more of "the things don't work" and a
whole heap of programmable thermostats.

Huh? The above doesn't parse.

Saving money is nice, but they already owe me over a hundred, so it's
certainly not a matter of need.

Owe you?

On Jan 24, 11:19*pm, mike wrote:
On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:







"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. *To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not supposed to turn it off for eight hours straight.
The idea is to turn them off in groups for maybe 20 mins
at a time, if necessary. Either something exceptional was happening
or something screwed up. As I said before, I had one on mine
here in NJ for over 10 years and never noticed any difference.
It's going to depend a lot on the shape of the electric system
in the area. But still, turning it off for 8 hours doesn't seem
right. Wonder if he complained to the utility and what they
said? You would think if they did that to people, most of them
would say come take this thing off, end of story....

On 1/25/2013 6:18 AM, wrote:
On Jan 24, 11:19 pm, wrote:
On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:







"Wes wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not supposed to turn it off for eight hours straight.
The idea is to turn them off in groups for maybe 20 mins
at a time, if necessary. Either something exceptional was happening
or something screwed up. As I said before, I had one on mine
here in NJ for over 10 years and never noticed any difference.
It's going to depend a lot on the shape of the electric system
in the area. But still, turning it off for 8 hours doesn't seem
right. Wonder if he complained to the utility and what they
said? You would think if they did that to people, most of them
would say come take this thing off, end of story....


Do the math. If the power isn't off longer than the thermal time-constant
of your house, it does zero good.
There's a very strong
correlation between how much you suffer and the goodness
of decreasing peak load for the utility. And that happens
at the peak load time when you most want the air conditioning.

If you turned mine off for 20minutes, I'd never notice, because it
doesn't run that often. And the utility would have gained nothing
because mine wouldn't have run anyway.

Take the energy saved while it's off. Subtract the energy used
when it comes back on to bring the temperature back to where you
want it.
Unless the number is positive, or the recovery time is outside
the peak load window, the utility gained nothing.

The way to solve the problem is to store heat (cold) locally.
Cool a tank of water during off peak and use it to reduce
the peak load. That trades efficiency loss for load leveling.

There is no free lunch...

On Jan 25, 5:06*pm, mike wrote:
On 1/25/2013 6:18 AM, wrote:





On Jan 24, 11:19 pm, *wrote:
On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:

"Wes *wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo..
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. *To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not supposed to turn it off for eight hours straight.
The idea is to turn them off in groups for maybe 20 mins
at a time, if necessary. *Either something exceptional was happening
or something screwed up. * As I said before, I had one on mine
here in NJ for over 10 years and never noticed any difference.
It's going to depend a lot on the shape of the electric system
in the area. * But still, turning it off for 8 hours doesn't seem
right. *Wonder if he complained to the utility and what they
said? * You would think if they did that to people, most of them
would say come take this thing off, end of story....

Do the math. *If the power isn't off longer than the thermal time-constant
of your house, it does zero good.

That's not true. There are a lot of AC's that during peak
demand days, ie when it's 100F out, could be running almost
constantly for hours. Take folks that have setback thermostats
for example. They have it set to come on at say 3 or 4PM so
that the house will be cooled down by the time they come home.
If the utility cycles say 1/3 or half of them to be off at a time,
they
have reduced their load. It clearly doesn't require turning off
the AC for 8 hours straight to be effective.



There's a very strong
correlation between how much you suffer and the goodness
of decreasing peak load for the utility. *And that happens
at the peak load time when you most want the air conditioning.

The point is that I think it's very unusual for a utility to
shut off your AC for 8 hours straight.



If you turned mine off for 20minutes, I'd never notice, because it
doesn't run that often. *And the utility would have gained nothing
because mine wouldn't have run anyway.

That's true if it doesn't run that often. But I'd say there
are enough AC's running a lot so that cutting them back
so they can only run say 20 mins or half the time will indeed
make a difference. There's a big difference between that
and cutting you off for 8 hours, which is nuts.




Take the energy saved while it's off. *Subtract the energy used
when it comes back on to bring the temperature back to where you
want it.
Unless the number is positive, or the recovery time is outside
the peak load window, the utility gained nothing.

The way to solve the problem is to store heat (cold) locally.
Cool a tank of water during off peak and use it to reduce
the peak load. *That trades efficiency loss for load leveling.

How practical is that?

So, did you call them up to find out if they actually intended to
cut your AC off for 8 hours? Or if something went wrong?
I had the same kind of system for over 10 years and never
had any experience like that. Never had a single occasion
where I could tell it was even activated. And if I did, and
they told me that's how it's supposed to work, I'd call them
up and tell them to remove it. Did you?

wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 11:19 pm, mike wrote:
On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:







"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not supposed to turn it off for eight hours straight.
The idea is to turn them off in groups for maybe 20 mins
at a time, if necessary. Either something exceptional was happening
or something screwed up. As I said before, I had one on mine
here in NJ for over 10 years and never noticed any difference.
It's going to depend a lot on the shape of the electric system
in the area. But still, turning it off for 8 hours doesn't seem
right. Wonder if he complained to the utility and what they
said? You would think if they did that to people, most of them
would say come take this thing off, end of story....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My utility has three duty-cycle options if you choose to sign up:

100% - Get 100% of the $12.50 discount per unit (I have two units) if you
allow them to turn it off for 100% of the time they have an emergency.

75% - 75/75

50% - 50/50

I had chosen the 100% option.

Now as for the question why off for eight hours, it was an exceptional
emergency event. After the utility received complaints, they sent a letter
of apology, and also thanked those who had the switch units. They claimed
if nobody had them, there would have been rolling brownouts, it was that
much demand, and those of us who had the units saved their day. I think the
temp that day reached 104 F.

As to another thread, even when there is no cycling off, when it is hot
enough outside, my upstairs heat pump can't keep up when running constantly,
and the temperature rises above the set point while running continuously,
until the outside temp lowers and/or the sun gets lower in the sky. And
that unit is required only for my upstairs. I have drapes/shades. The
thermostat is in the master BR, which has a cathedral ceiling with its own
roof. The room (and rooms below) are on a side section of the house with a
lower roof above the master BR, ie not under the attic.

If I remember right, the offer here (NY area- Con Ed) was that they'd turn the thermostat higher but the customer could always override it. I guess they figured some people wouldn't notice, wouldn't care or wouldn't be home, and that was sufficient.

On 1/24/2013 7:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?


--
Wes Groleau


I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

I was part of that heat wave too. When people complained online, the
utility originally said the AC was only off until 2:00 (or something)
and then come to find out they supposedly immediately implemented some
sort of second emergency cutoff. It was mid-90s in my house when I got
home. Dogs were panting. Speaking of programmable thermostats, part of
the deal was they gave me and installed one. Came in "handy" because
they day they turned off the AC, they displayed some message to that
effect on the thermostat! At least I knew my AC hadn't up and died on me.

Complaining aside, if the choice is between cycling the AC and having a
blackout, I'd like to at least have the capability of running my ceiling
fans rather than a total power outage. (My neighborhood gets enough of
those at random intervals anyhow!).

On 1/25/2013 2:42 PM, wrote:
On Jan 25, 5:06 pm, wrote:
On 1/25/2013 6:18 AM, wrote:





On Jan 24, 11:19 pm, wrote:
On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:

"Wes wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not supposed to turn it off for eight hours straight.
The idea is to turn them off in groups for maybe 20 mins
at a time, if necessary. Either something exceptional was happening
or something screwed up. As I said before, I had one on mine
here in NJ for over 10 years and never noticed any difference.
It's going to depend a lot on the shape of the electric system
in the area. But still, turning it off for 8 hours doesn't seem
right. Wonder if he complained to the utility and what they
said? You would think if they did that to people, most of them
would say come take this thing off, end of story....

Do the math. If the power isn't off longer than the thermal time-constant
of your house, it does zero good.

That's not true. There are a lot of AC's that during peak
demand days, ie when it's 100F out, could be running almost
constantly for hours. Take folks that have setback thermostats
for example. They have it set to come on at say 3 or 4PM so
that the house will be cooled down by the time they come home.
If the utility cycles say 1/3 or half of them to be off at a time,
they
have reduced their load. It clearly doesn't require turning off
the AC for 8 hours straight to be effective.



There's a very strong
correlation between how much you suffer and the goodness
of decreasing peak load for the utility. And that happens
at the peak load time when you most want the air conditioning.

The point is that I think it's very unusual for a utility to
shut off your AC for 8 hours straight.



If you turned mine off for 20minutes, I'd never notice, because it
doesn't run that often. And the utility would have gained nothing
because mine wouldn't have run anyway.

That's true if it doesn't run that often. But I'd say there
are enough AC's running a lot so that cutting them back
so they can only run say 20 mins or half the time will indeed
make a difference. There's a big difference between that
and cutting you off for 8 hours, which is nuts.

spoiler alert...math below.




Take the energy saved while it's off. Subtract the energy used
when it comes back on to bring the temperature back to where you
want it.
Unless the number is positive, or the recovery time is outside
the peak load window, the utility gained nothing.

The way to solve the problem is to store heat (cold) locally.
Cool a tank of water during off peak and use it to reduce
the peak load. That trades efficiency loss for load leveling.

How practical is that?

So, did you call them up to find out if they actually intended to
cut your AC off for 8 hours? Or if something went wrong?
I had the same kind of system for over 10 years and never
had any experience like that. Never had a single occasion
where I could tell it was even activated. And if I did, and
they told me that's how it's supposed to work, I'd call them
up and tell them to remove it. Did you?


I don't think they even offer the option in Oregon.
About the only choice we have is to pay a monthly fee
so that we can pay slightly less for off-peak and more for peak
consumption.
If I signed up and moved 80% of my consumption to the 3AM time frame,
I'd save just about enough to pay the fee.

There seems to be a math aversion in this thread.

Here's a simple calculation with numbers pulled out of my ass.
You can publish the results with your assumptions...

If the utility has a peak capacity of 1000.
And if the demand is 1100
And if air conditioning represents 500 of that load,
you need to shed 20% of the air conditioning load.
If 20% of the air conditioning load signed up for the shutoff option
You need to turn ALL of them off for the duration.
Note, I said 20% of the A/C load, not customers. Altruistic customers
are disproportionately punished...and paid handsomely for the privilege.
The utility paid you an insurance premium. It's time to pay the claim.

The person who quoted the 8 hour duration got exactly what
he contracted to get.

Bottom line is that the grid can't support peak load in some areas.
We either get more efficient and reduce the peak, or we suffer loss of
power, incrementally or catastrophically.

If I weatherize to reduce my load, I'd still get hit with blackouts.
If my tiny load signs up for a shutoff option, it provides
proportionately less help for the utility. Ironically, the most frugal
can help the least.

There is no free lunch!!!

This problem is more political than technical.
If the anti-nuke people
and the anti-wind farm people
and the no power lines in my back yard people
and the no hydro dams people would just get out of the way
the situation would improve.

We need to have a vote on issues like nukes, wind, transmission lines,
hydro, etc. Every time you vote no on one of them, your "number"
gets incremented.
You get to share in the shortfall proportional to your "number".
That'd fix it real quick!
My mom used to call it, "put your money where your mouth is."

On 01-25-2013 17:06, mike wrote:
Do the math. If the power isn't off longer than the thermal time-constant
of your house, it does zero good.
There's a very strong
correlation between how much you suffer and the goodness
of decreasing peak load for the utility. And that happens
at the peak load time when you most want the air conditioning.

Are they just turning it off for a while? The letter made me think that
they were altering the waveform into the motor

--
Wes Groleau

€œBeware the barrenness of a busy life.€�
€” Socrates

On Jan 25, 8:34*pm, mike wrote:
On 1/25/2013 2:42 PM, wrote:





On Jan 25, 5:06 pm, *wrote:
On 1/25/2013 6:18 AM, wrote:

On Jan 24, 11:19 pm, * *wrote:
On 1/24/2013 4:55 PM, Dimitrios Paskoudniakis wrote:

"Wes * *wrote in message
...
Electric company wants me to install a device that lets them remotely
alter the duty cycle of my AC compressor.

Is this truly harmless?

Can it make the thing less efficient, or wear out / burn out sooner?

--
Wes Groleau

I live in Maryland near DC. I have A/C on the first floor and basement
and a heat pump for the upper level. I get $50/month discount for the
four months of May - August by allowing the utility to be able to shut
off the A/C.

Two years ago during a heat wave, they shut it off from 11:30 AM - 7:00
PM. By that time, my upstairs thermostat read 91 F. That's not a typo.
It got back to a sleepable temp by about 1:00 AM.

You just need to decide what's more important, saving a few bucks or
having ensured comfort.

Yep, that's the issue. *To do any good, they have to turn it off when
you most need it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not supposed to turn it off for eight hours straight.
The idea is to turn them off in groups for maybe 20 mins
at a time, if necessary. *Either something exceptional was happening
or something screwed up. * As I said before, I had one on mine
here in NJ for over 10 years and never noticed any difference.
It's going to depend a lot on the shape of the electric system
in the area. * But still, turning it off for 8 hours doesn't seem
right. *Wonder if he complained to the utility and what they
said? * You would think if they did that to people, most of them
would say come take this thing off, end of story....

Do the math. *If the power isn't off longer than the thermal time-constant
of your house, it does zero good.

That's not true. *There are a lot of AC's that during peak
demand days, ie when it's 100F out, could be running almost
constantly for hours. * Take folks that have setback thermostats
for example. *They have it set to come on at say 3 or 4PM so
that the house will be cooled down by the time they come home.
If the utility cycles say 1/3 or half of them to be off at a time,
they
have reduced their load. *It clearly doesn't require turning off
the AC for 8 hours straight to be effective.

There's a very strong
correlation between how much you suffer and the goodness
of decreasing peak load for the utility. *And that happens
at the peak load time when you most want the air conditioning.

The point is that I think it's very unusual for a utility to
shut off your AC for 8 hours straight.

If you turned mine off for 20minutes, I'd never notice, because it
doesn't run that often. *And the utility would have gained nothing
because mine wouldn't have run anyway.

That's true if it doesn't run that often. *But I'd say there
are enough AC's running a lot so that cutting them back
so they can only run say 20 mins or half the time will indeed
make a difference. * There's a big difference between that
and cutting you off for 8 hours, which is nuts.

spoiler alert...math *below.





Take the energy saved while it's off. *Subtract the energy used
when it comes back on to bring the temperature back to where you
want it.
Unless the number is positive, or the recovery time is outside
the peak load window, the utility gained nothing.

The way to solve the problem is to store heat (cold) locally.
Cool a tank of water during off peak and use it to reduce
the peak load. *That trades efficiency loss for load leveling.

How practical is that?

So, did you call them up to find out if they actually intended to
cut your AC off for 8 hours? *Or if something went wrong?
I had the same kind of system for over 10 years and never
had any experience like that. *Never had a single occasion
where I could tell it was even activated. *And if I did, *and
they told me that's how it's supposed to work, I'd call them
up and tell them to remove it. * Did you?

I don't think they even offer the option in Oregon.
About the only choice we have is to pay a monthly fee
so that we can pay slightly less for off-peak and more for peak
consumption.
If I signed up and moved 80% of my consumption to the 3AM time frame,
I'd save just about enough to pay the fee.

There seems to be a math aversion in this thread.

Here's a simple calculation with numbers pulled out of my ass.
You can publish the results with your assumptions...

If the utility has a peak capacity of 1000.
And if the demand is 1100
And if air conditioning represents 500 of that load,
you need to shed 20% of the air conditioning load.
If 20% of the air conditioning load signed up for the shutoff option
You need to turn ALL of them off for the duration.

That makes a bunch of assumptions designed to prove
that it doesn't work. For example, just change the peak capacity
overage from 1100 to 1050. Then the utility no longer
needs to turn off all the AC's for the duration. What basis
do you have that those numbers to run your "math"
reflect reality?

More fundamentally, there is going to be a distribution of AC
duty cycles out there. On peak days which are typicallly VERY
hot days, a significant number are probably going to be
running constantly, or close to constantly. If they throttle
all AC's back to 50% duty cycle, the power usage by those
units that were running 100% has been cut 50%.
The AC's that were running 75% of the time are
now running 50%, saving 33% there. The ones that were
running 66% of the time are now running 50%, saving 24%
there. If your AC was only running 50% of the time or less,
then there is no power saving there. Taken together it
all adds up enough to make a difference, without shutting
everyone down for long periods or making them suffer.
I'll bet there are plenty of houses out there with the AC
running 66% to 100% of the time with it 72F inside.
So, they wind up drifting up to 76F and the utility sheds
some load. That is how it typically works, not by
cutting folks off with no AC for 8 hours straight.
And cumulatively it works, is significant enough,
which is why utilities do it.



Note, I said 20% of the A/C load, not customers. *Altruistic customers
are disproportionately punished...and paid handsomely for the privilege.
The utility paid you an insurance premium. *It's time to pay the claim.

The person who quoted the 8 hour duration got exactly what
he contracted to get.


And from my experience, that is an exceptional case and
*not* how the system is typically implemented. It's *not* how
the system here in NJ worked for the 10 plus years I had it.
It's just plain dumb, because very few customers are going
to tolerate it. I would bet 99% of them don't understand that
their AC will be off for 8 hours. And once they have it happen
once, they are gonna call the utility up to come remove it.
No benefit to the utility for the cost of install, removal, etc
and getting a black eye. Just because ONE utility is dumb,
doesn't mean that's how it works everywhere.

Have you ever had actual experience with such a system
yourself?



Bottom line is that the grid can't support peak load in some areas.
We either get more efficient and reduce the peak, or we suffer loss of
power, incrementally or catastrophically.

If I weatherize to reduce my load, I'd still get hit with blackouts.

No you wouldn't, unless you had an extreme nut case utility.
Per my example above, if you're running your AC only 30%
and the utility throttles everyone on the plan back to 30% to
50% duty cycle, you would see no effect. And again, that is
how it typically works, not cutting folks off for 8 hours straight.
Why do you insist on using the most pathological case?




If my tiny load signs up for a shutoff option, it provides
proportionately less help for the utility. *Ironically, the most frugal
can help the least.

There is no free lunch!!!

Apparently there is, because in the case you just cited
you would be getting paid for participating in the program
the same amount as everyone else. But if you you're frugal
with AC usage, it doesn't impact you.




This problem is more political than technical.
If the anti-nuke people
and the anti-wind farm people
and the no power lines in my back yard people
and the no hydro dams people would just get out of the way
the situation would improve.

We need to have a vote on issues like nukes, wind, transmission lines,
hydro, etc. *Every time you vote no on one of them, your "number"
gets incremented.
You get to share in the shortfall proportional to your "number".
That'd fix it real quick!
My mom used to call it, "put your money where your mouth is."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 26, 1:09*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 01-25-2013 17:06, mike wrote:

Do the math. *If the power isn't off longer than the thermal time-constant
of your house, it does zero good.
There's a very strong
correlation between how much you suffer and the goodness
of decreasing peak load for the utility. *And that happens
at the peak load time when you most want the air conditioning.

Are they just turning it off for a while? *The letter made me think that
they were altering the waveform into the motor

--
Wes Groleau

* *“Beware the barrenness of a busy life.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Socrates

The system here in NJ turns it off. They all have to
do it that way for some key reasons. One is it has to have
significant effect. Even if you operated the AC with your
"altered waveform", you could only reduce the power going
in slightly. Second, it has to be cheap. A relay is cheap,
power control electronics for 50 amps isn't. And finally,
turning it on and off, there is no risk to burning up the
motor. When you try to run all kinds of AC units on
some kind of reduced power, no telling what would
happen.