A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

On 1/13/13 5:57 AM, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...




Triplex to me means three wires, not four. I would call that wire
quad.
The bare wire would be for the equipment ground, not the neutral.
The neutral is current carrying and is supposed to be insulated.
There have been some code changes regarding single phase wiring in the
U.S. Electric stoves and clothes dryers are what I'm thinking of. It
was acceptable long ago to wire them with three wires. The equipment
ground and neutral were permitted to be combined. That is no longer
permitted in new wiring. The current carrying neutral and the normally
non current carrying equipment ground have to be separate.

On Jan 13, 6:57*am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

On Jan 13, 10:01*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. *All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. *That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. *Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.



You can verify it by looking at the transformers.
If you see 2, one perhaps bigger than the other, it is 3 phase center
tapped delta. (AKA red leg or wild leg)http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

If you see 3 equally sized transformers it is usually 3p wyehttp://gfretwell.com/electrical/3%20p%20wye-wye.jpg

On 1/13/2013 9:20 AM, wrote:
....


Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

....

Iff'en it "is not connected to anything" how can it support anything?

I'd not think that would be how OP would have written the description if
it were the support cable he was speaking of.

--

On 1/13/2013 6:57 AM, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

Likely you mean it has a drop using quadplex aerial cable?


The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

On Jan 13, 10:59*am, dpb wrote:
On 1/13/2013 9:20 AM, wrote:
...



Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

...

Iff'en it "is not connected to anything" how can it support anything?

I would assume by "not connected to anything", he means
it is not electrically connected to anything. He doesn't say
anything about whether it's physically connected to the
building, pole, etc




I'd not think that would be how OP would have written the description if
it were the support cable he was speaking of.

--

From what he wrote, a lot isn't clear. Hopefully he will
clarify it.

On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:
On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.


The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.







You can verify it by looking at the transformers.
If you see 2, one perhaps bigger than the other, it is 3 phase center
tapped delta. (AKA red leg or wild leg)http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

If you see 3 equally sized transformers it is usually 3p wyehttp://gfretwell.com/electrical/3%20p%20wye-wye.jpg

On Jan 13, 10:55*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:20:23 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 13, 10:01*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. *All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. *That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring..
Three hot, and the neutral. *Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The bare wire on the pole is the neutral.



But again, he says the neutral wire in the service cable that
he is talking about is not connected. It can't be a neutral
if it's not connected.

On 1/13/2013 10:59 AM, dpb wrote:
On 1/13/2013 9:20 AM, wrote:
...


Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

...

Iff'en it "is not connected to anything" how can it support anything?

I'd not think that would be how OP would have written the description if
it were the support cable he was speaking of.

--

The original post mentions describes the "four wire triplex" with one
wire unconnected. "trader" introduced the idea of it being the "neutral"

On Jan 13, 11:10*am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:59 AM, dpb wrote:





On 1/13/2013 9:20 AM, wrote:
...

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

...

Iff'en it "is not connected to anything" how can it support anything?

I'd not think that would be how OP would have written the description if
it were the support cable he was speaking of.

--

The original post mentions describes the "four wire triplex" with one
wire unconnected. "trader" introduced the idea of it being the "neutral"- Hide quoted text -


No, I didn't introduce the idea that it was the neutral.
The OP stated that in the first sentence:

"A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex
feeding the building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other
is the bare neutral. "

Then he says:

"The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is
not
connected to anything. "

So he's saying he has 3 black insulated, the other is the
bare neutral. The 4th wire is not connected to anything.
I took that 4th wire to be the bare neutral. But it's not
clear what exactly he means by the 4th wire. If it's one of the 3
blacks, I would think he would just say one of the blacks
is not connected.

On Jan 13, 11:07*am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:





On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. *All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. *That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring..
Three hot, and the neutral. *Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.



The confusion is that he first says there are 3 black
wires and a bare neutral. Then he says the "4th wire"
is not connected to anything. Since he was talking
about 3+1 and then says "the 4th wire", I took that
4th wire to be the bare neutral. It's not clear what
the 4th wire is. If the 4th wire is one of the other
three, then I would think he would have said:

There are 3 blacks, one of them is unconnected and
there is a bare neutral. That is the way the rest of you
seem to be interpreting it. Hopefully he'll clarify.

A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...


*It could be a 3 phase delta service. How many transformers are on the
pole?

On Jan 13, 11:58*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 08:27:47 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 13, 11:07*am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. *All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. *That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. *Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.

The confusion is that he first says there are 3 black
wires and a bare neutral. *Then he says the "4th wire"
is not connected to anything. *Since he was talking
about 3+1 and then says "the 4th wire", I took that
4th wire to be the bare neutral. * It's not clear what
the 4th wire is. *If the 4th wire is one of the other
three, then I would think he would have said:

There are 3 blacks, one of them is unconnected and
there is a bare neutral. *That is the way the rest of you
seem to be interpreting it. *Hopefully he'll clarify.

That is why I said "look at the transformers"

The topic is called "what is FOUR wire Triplex for? and the answer is
"3 phase"
I bet if he posts a picture, you are going to see that bare wire
connected to the strand on the pole and one might believe that is not
connected to anything but that is the neutral.

around pittsburgh many aerial drops use a bare wire not connected to
anything but the pole and building mechanically... no electric
connections....

On Jan 13, 11:58*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 08:27:47 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 13, 11:07*am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. *All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. *That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. *Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.

The confusion is that he first says there are 3 black
wires and a bare neutral. *Then he says the "4th wire"
is not connected to anything. *Since he was talking
about 3+1 and then says "the 4th wire", I took that
4th wire to be the bare neutral. * It's not clear what
the 4th wire is. *If the 4th wire is one of the other
three, then I would think he would have said:

There are 3 blacks, one of them is unconnected and
there is a bare neutral. *That is the way the rest of you
seem to be interpreting it. *Hopefully he'll clarify.

That is why I said "look at the transformers"

The topic is called "what is FOUR wire Triplex for? and the answer is
"3 phase"
I bet if he posts a picture, you are going to see that bare wire
connected to the strand on the pole and one might believe that is not
connected to anything but that is the neutral.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, I agree, IF they are all in fact connected. But
that sure isn't what he's saying. And as I've said,
from the confusing post, it's not clear exactly what
the 4th allegedly unconnected wire is, ie the bare or
one of the conductors.

On 1/13/2013 12:07 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jan 13, 11:58 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 08:27:47 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 13, 11:07 am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.

The confusion is that he first says there are 3 black
wires and a bare neutral. Then he says the "4th wire"
is not connected to anything. Since he was talking
about 3+1 and then says "the 4th wire", I took that
4th wire to be the bare neutral. It's not clear what
the 4th wire is. If the 4th wire is one of the other
three, then I would think he would have said:

There are 3 blacks, one of them is unconnected and
there is a bare neutral. That is the way the rest of you
seem to be interpreting it. Hopefully he'll clarify.

That is why I said "look at the transformers"

The topic is called "what is FOUR wire Triplex for? and the answer is
"3 phase"
I bet if he posts a picture, you are going to see that bare wire
connected to the strand on the pole and one might believe that is not
connected to anything but that is the neutral.

around pittsburgh many aerial drops use a bare wire not connected to
anything but the pole and building mechanically... no electric
connections....

They must have a different take on things. Standard practice is to bond
bare wires than can become energized for any reason even if unused.

On 1/13/2013 11:27 AM, wrote:
On Jan 13, 11:07 am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:





On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.



The confusion is that he first says there are 3 black
wires and a bare neutral. Then he says the "4th wire"
is not connected to anything. Since he was talking
about 3+1 and then says "the 4th wire", I took that
4th wire to be the bare neutral. It's not clear what
the 4th wire is. If the 4th wire is one of the other
three, then I would think he would have said:

There are 3 blacks, one of them is unconnected and
there is a bare neutral. That is the way the rest of you
seem to be interpreting it. Hopefully he'll clarify.

It must have been the other "trader" who argued the point that it was
the neutral...

On Jan 13, 12:58*pm, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 11:27 AM, wrote:



On Jan 13, 11:07 am, George wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:01 am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. *All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. *That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. *Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...

That says "3 phase".
Three hots and a neutral.

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? *Sounds like a support
wire to me.

The version on the newsserver I use does not mention anything about the
"neutral" being unconnected.

The confusion is that he first says there are 3 black
wires and a bare neutral. *Then he says the "4th wire"
is not connected to anything. *Since he was talking
about 3+1 and then says "the 4th wire", I took that
4th wire to be the bare neutral. * It's not clear what
the 4th wire is. *If the 4th wire is one of the other
three, then I would think he would have said:

There are 3 blacks, one of them is unconnected and
there is a bare neutral. *That is the way the rest of you
seem to be interpreting it. *Hopefully he'll clarify.

It must have been the other "trader" who argued the point that it was
the neutral...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now you're adding to the obfuscation, implying that I
argued the point that "it" was the neutral. What "it" are you
refering to? The OP wrote:

"3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral. "

So there is an "it" and it's the OP saying it's the neutral,
not me.

Then he says:

"the 4th wire is not connected to anything. "

So we have 3+1. Now maybe YOU are a mind reader,'
but it's not clear what the 4th unconnected wire he's referring to
is. I took it to mean the bare wire. gfretw
thinks it's 3 phase and all are actually connected.

You, well, it's not clear what you think because all
you seem more interested in is trying to pick apart my
interpretation, which I believe is a perfectly reasonable
one, because the OP was unclear on what the 4th
wire is that he's referring to.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:57:42 -0600, wrote:

A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything. All the triplex I've ever seen is 3 wire, two
are insulated, one is bare. That's for a standard 240V single phase
system.

Im thinking that this cable was intended to be for three phase wiring.
Three hot, and the neutral. Is this right?
Maybe that building once had 3 phase service, or they just had that
cable on hand when they wired it, and used what they had...


The bare wire is the "suspension" cable..

On 1/13/2013 10:05 AM, wrote:
....

I would assume by "not connected to anything", he means
it is not electrically connected to anything. He doesn't say
anything about whether it's physically connected to the
building, pole, etc


....

Well, if it were physically connected to the structure/pole, w/o it
being electrically connected it would be pretty clear it wasn't an
electrical conductor wouldn't it? And, then it would be even more
unlikely to be said it was "unconnected".

--

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.



Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.

On Jan 13, 7:14*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? *You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. *Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. *There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. *And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. *I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. *The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. *So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. *It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. *I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. *The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. *I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.

On 01/13/2013 07:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.



Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.


3+1 wires sounds to me like three phase service which would be common
for a large industrial service. but as others have said the bare would
in fact be a neutral/ground conductor and would in fact be connected.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jan 14, 12:10*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:20:29 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. *So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.

I would still like to see a picture. If that messenger is truly "not
connected to anything" (not bonded) it is a NESC violation and a
safety hazard, no lineman would allow to happen.since they are the
ones who are in danger,


In his second post he said that the bare was both the support
and the neutral, just as you thought from the beginning.
What is not connected is apparently one of the insulated conductors,
though even in the new post he doesn't directly say that. But
since he said the "4th wire" isn't connected, that's the only
possibility left. So it sounds like it could have been a 3 phase that
was later converted to 240.



I bet *that when we actually look at it we find it is crimped onto the
strand between poles where everything else is bonded. There won't
usually be a direct connection to the transformer and maybe that was
the confusion.

On Jan 13, 7:20*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 13, 7:14*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? *You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. *Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. *There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. *And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. *I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. *The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. *So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. *It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. *I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. *The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. *I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. *So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess I'm missing where he specifically "clarified that 4th
unconnected wire is one of the insulated conductors".

Did I miss a post?

On Jan 14, 9:44*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 13, 7:20*pm, "
wrote:





On Jan 13, 7:14*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? *You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. *Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. *There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. *And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. *I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. *The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed.. *So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. *It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. *I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. *The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. *I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. *So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess I'm missing where he specifically "clarified that 4th
unconnected wire is one of the insulated conductors".

Did I miss a post?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He made two posts. In the second he said:

"Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral.
There are 3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one,
not the usual two. "

If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected. The only
remaining possibility is that one of the three insulated
conductors is the unconnected 4th wire.

On Jan 14, 10:17*am, "
wrote:
On Jan 14, 9:44*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Jan 13, 7:20*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 7:14*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? *You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. *Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. *There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. *And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. *I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. *The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. *So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. *It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. *I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. *The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. *I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. *So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess I'm missing where he specifically "clarified that 4th
unconnected wire is one of the insulated conductors".

Did I miss a post?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He made two posts. *In the second he said:

"Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral.
There are *3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one,
*not the usual two. "

If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected. *The only
remaining possibility is that one of the three insulated
conductors is the unconnected 4th wire.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right, I saw that second post.

We're still taking his word for it that it's the neutral. Even you
said: "If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected."

As long as we're still starting our sentences with "If" there's still
room for confusion.

I rented a house in the Outer Banks this summer and saw where there
were 2 insulated wires and a bare wire coming from the pole. At first
it appeared to me that the bare wire was only the support and that
there as no ground (which made me curious), but closer investigation
showed it to be the ground also. That was the first time I had seen a
set up like that.

Where's the picture (or a more detailed description) from the OP that
will clarify all this?

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I rented a house in the Outer Banks this summer and saw where there
were 2 insulated wires and a bare wire coming from the pole. At first
it appeared to me that the bare wire was only the support and that
there as no ground (which made me curious), but closer investigation
showed it to be the ground also. That was the first time I had seen a
set up like that.

Not sure what the standard is now in North Carolina,but most of the houses I
have looked at that seems to be the standard. Two hot wires (insulated) and
a bare wire for the neutral that also seems to be the support line.

On Jan 14, 10:40*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 14, 10:17*am, "
wrote:





On Jan 14, 9:44*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Jan 13, 7:20*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 7:14*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. *3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? *You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. *Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. *There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. *And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. *I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. *The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. *So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. *It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. *I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. *The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. *I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. *So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess I'm missing where he specifically "clarified that 4th
unconnected wire is one of the insulated conductors".

Did I miss a post?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He made two posts. *In the second he said:

"Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral.
There are *3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one,
*not the usual two. "

If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected. *The only
remaining possibility is that one of the three insulated
conductors is the unconnected 4th wire.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right, I saw that second post.

We're still taking his word for it that it's the neutral. Even you
said: *"If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected."

He also said that the way it's connected, ie with one of
the 4 wires unconnected, it looks like a 240V service.
With a 240V service, you have two hots and a neutral,
all of which are connected.
Yes, he didn't come right out and say that it's one of
the insulated conductors that is unconnected, but it's
the only interpretation that makes sense.





As long as we're still starting our sentences with "If" there's still
room for confusion.

I rented a house in the Outer Banks this summer and saw where there
were 2 insulated wires and a bare wire coming from the pole. At first
it appeared to me that the bare wire was only the support and that
there as no ground (which made me curious), but closer investigation
showed it to be the ground also. That was the first time I had seen a
set up like that.



That is the classic case. It's how alll the overhead services
I've seen are done. They use the base wire as both
support and neutral.



Where's the picture (or a more detailed description) from the OP that
will clarify all this?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

About 80% of this thread would have been eliminated
if the description would have been clearer. How hard
is it to just say "One of the 3 insulated conductors is
not connected."

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:10:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:20:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.

I would still like to see a picture. If that messenger is truly "not
connected to anything" (not bonded) it is a NESC violation and a
safety hazard, no lineman would allow to happen.since they are the
ones who are in danger,

I bet that when we actually look at it we find it is crimped onto the
strand between poles where everything else is bonded. There won't
usually be a direct connection to the transformer and maybe that was
the confusion.

How much clearer can I make this.....
One of the insulated wires is NOT connected to anything, (on either end
of the cable). It's not taped or capped in any way, it's just there
doing nothing. This might be a code violation, I'm not sure, since the
wire does nothing. I'd still think it should be capped somehow. But if
this is code, I'd think the Po Co would have capped it.

The bare wire IS the neutral and is connected that way. The other 2
insulated wires are connected in the normal manner that any 240V
overhead cable would be.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:28:39 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

3+1 wires sounds to me like three phase service which would be common
for a large industrial service. but as others have said the bare would
in fact be a neutral/ground conductor and would in fact be connected.

nate

I've only lived here for about 12 years. The building that cable feeds
was once a clothing store in the 50's. then a JC Penneys, (in the 1960s
- 80s) then it was supposed to be a become a bar/restaurant, (early
2000s) with a dance hall, but after some renovation, the owner moved,
and the place was never opened. Now it's unoccupied. The building is
likely close to 100 years old. The entire downtown consists of building
of that age, except for a few newer ones. My guess is that the wires
may have been 3 phase, but I really dont know why a clothing store or
Penneys would need 3 phase. But I'm wondering if that cable was added
in the early 2000's when that bar/restarant was supposed to open. I
could see the need for 3 phase for walk in coolers and other industrial
food preparation equipment. It's hard to tell the age of that cable,
but it's older looking, but not cracked or bad looking. I'd take a wild
guess that the power company installed it for future upgrade to 3 phase
for that bar/rest. Just a guess!!!!

Prior to that 1950s clothing store, I'm not sure what the building was
used for, and so far no one else in town seems to remember, except that
maybe it was a clothing store going way back to when it was built. It's
a large 3 story building for a small town, but would be small for a big
city. Typical turn of the century store front with large glass windows.
It's supposed to be in pretty good shape for its age, but the guy just
leaves it vacant and dont try to sell it. Apparently he must think it's
going to be a "gold mine" in later years. Who knows????

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:20:23 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

I did *NOT* say that.....
Learn to read for comprehension!!!

On Jan 14, 2:16*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:10:46 -0500, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:20:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. *So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.

I would still like to see a picture. If that messenger is truly "not
connected to anything" (not bonded) it is a NESC violation and a
safety hazard, no lineman would allow to happen.since they are the
ones who are in danger,

I bet *that when we actually look at it we find it is crimped onto the
strand between poles where everything else is bonded. There won't
usually be a direct connection to the transformer and maybe that was
the confusion.

How much clearer can I make this.....
One of the insulated wires is NOT connected to anything, (on either end
of the cable). *It's not taped or capped in any way, it's just there
doing nothing. *This might be a code violation, I'm not sure, since the
wire does nothing. *I'd still think it should be capped somehow. *But if
this is code, I'd think the Po Co would have capped it.

The bare wire IS the neutral and is connected that way. *The other 2
insulated wires are connected in the normal manner that any 240V
overhead cable would be.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As far as I can tell, this is the one and only post in which you
specifically said "One of the insulated wires is NOT connected to
anything". Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

In your OP you said:

"A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare
neutral. The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th
wire is not connected to anything."

Since you mentioned 3 wires, and then the "other one" and then said
"the 4th wire is not connected to anything" many of us followed that
sequentially and assumed that the "other one" and the "4th" were one
and the same. There was no way for us to know that the "4th" was one
of the 3 insulated wires.

In your 2nd post you said:

"Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. There
are 3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two."

Once again, no mention of which of the 4 wires is not connected.

You had the advantage of a visual, all we had were your words, which
were not very clear. Had you referred to the "4th wire" as one of the
insulated ones, as you did in this post, there would have been
absoutely no confusion. e.g. "The thing that caught my attention to
it, is that one of the 3 insulated wires is not connected to
anything."

In addition, it was not clear to us that the wire was not connected at
either end. You said:

"I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door, and I
was on the deck last week. The entrance head is probably only 12 feet
up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire."

From where we're sitting, all that we can envision is the end you told
us about: The entrance head. You never mentioned the other end of the
cable until now.

wrote:
"

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

I did *NOT* say that.....
Learn to read for comprehension!!!

Your original characterization of the so-called '4th' wire was
ambiguous. Not even ambiguous, more like (unintenionally) misleading.

Effective communication is a responsibility primarily of/on the sender,
only secondarily the receiver.

The sender is supposed to recognize the limitations of the media and
know that the receiver cannot see inside the head of the sender to know
what he was thinking about when he said what he said.

You said at the opening:

A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

3 like wires and then 'the other' would cause a normal reader to call
the other the 4th, different, wire.

Then you said:

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

I believe that it would be normal for the receiver to interpret that the
bare, neutral, different, 4th wire is not connected.

Your original does not 'select' one of the 3 otherwise identical black
insulated wires to be the '4th' wire (not connected).

The criticism of the communication breakdown should not be assigned to
the receivers comprehension or lack or mind-reading skills here.

It wasn't until later that you began to try to clarify what you were
thinking and seeing at the wires.



--
Mike Easter

On Jan 14, 2:44*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:28:39 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

3+1 wires sounds to me like three phase service which would be common
for a large industrial service. *but as others have said the bare would
in fact be a neutral/ground conductor and would in fact be connected.

nate

I've only lived here for about 12 years. *The building that cable feeds
was once a clothing store in the 50's. then a JC Penneys, (in the 1960s
- 80s) then it was supposed to be a become a bar/restaurant, (early
2000s) with a dance hall, but after some renovation, the owner moved,
and the place was never opened. *Now it's unoccupied. *The building is
likely close to 100 years old. *The entire downtown consists of building
of that age, except for a few newer ones. *My guess is that the wires
may have been 3 phase, but I really dont know why a clothing store or
Penneys would need 3 phase. *But I'm wondering if that cable was added
in the early 2000's when that bar/restarant was supposed to open. *I
could see the need for 3 phase for walk in coolers and other industrial
food preparation equipment.

The power demands of a typical JC penny are going to
be greater than the power needs of a bar/restaurant.
For one thing, a large dept store has large HVAC needs.
Any dept store I've been in would blow away a bar/rest
from that standpoint alone.
Also, the JC Penny type stores typically have escalators,
elevators, etc.





*It's hard to tell the age of that cable,
but it's older looking, but not cracked or bad looking. *I'd take a wild
guess that the power company installed it for future upgrade to 3 phase
for that bar/rest. *Just a guess!!!!

Seems rather unlikely. How could anyone predict
decades ago what might or might not go into a building at some point
in the future? IF anything it would appear that
it was a 3 phase service that was backed down to 240V.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:10:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:20:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.

I would still like to see a picture. If that messenger is truly "not
connected to anything" (not bonded) it is a NESC violation and a
safety hazard, no lineman would allow to happen.since they are the
ones who are in danger,

I bet that when we actually look at it we find it is crimped onto the
strand between poles where everything else is bonded. There won't
usually be a direct connection to the transformer and maybe that was
the confusion.
And no connection at the building, in all likelihood.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:16:34 -0600, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:10:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:20:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.

I would still like to see a picture. If that messenger is truly "not
connected to anything" (not bonded) it is a NESC violation and a
safety hazard, no lineman would allow to happen.since they are the
ones who are in danger,

I bet that when we actually look at it we find it is crimped onto the
strand between poles where everything else is bonded. There won't
usually be a direct connection to the transformer and maybe that was
the confusion.

How much clearer can I make this.....
One of the insulated wires is NOT connected to anything, (on either end
of the cable). It's not taped or capped in any way, it's just there
doing nothing. This might be a code violation, I'm not sure, since the
wire does nothing. I'd still think it should be capped somehow. But if
this is code, I'd think the Po Co would have capped it.

The bare wire IS the neutral and is connected that way. The other 2
insulated wires are connected in the normal manner that any 240V
overhead cable would be.

Then you have a 3 phase supply cable repurposed, and the unused
insulated conductor SHOULD be grounded at the(preferably) supply end.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:14:33 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


The power demands of a typical JC penny are going to
be greater than the power needs of a bar/restaurant.
For one thing, a large dept store has large HVAC needs.
Any dept store I've been in would blow away a bar/rest
from that standpoint alone.
Also, the JC Penny type stores typically have escalators,
elevators, etc.



In that case, then it may have been 3 phase in the past adn was backed
down to single phase since then.


*It's hard to tell the age of that cable,
but it's older looking, but not cracked or bad looking. *I'd take a wild
guess that the power company installed it for future upgrade to 3 phase
for that bar/rest. *Just a guess!!!!

Seems rather unlikely. How could anyone predict
decades ago what might or might not go into a building at some point
in the future? IF anything it would appear that
it was a 3 phase service that was backed down to 240V.

Yep!!!

On 1/14/2013 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Jan 14, 10:40 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 14, 10:17 am, "
wrote:





On Jan 14, 9:44 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Jan 13, 7:20 pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 7:14 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:52:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:57 am, wrote:
A large store downtown has a heavy FOUR wire triplex feeding the
building. 3 wires are black insulated, the other is the bare neutral.

The thing that caught my attention to it, is that the 4th wire is not
connected to anything.

If it's not connected to anything, why are you identifying it
as the neutral? You have 3 wires that are apparently
current carrying conductors and one that is bare, not
connected. Assuming this is overhead, ie going from the
pole to the building, sounds like the bare wire is for
support only and you have a 240V service, with two
hots, one neutral.

Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral. There are
3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one, not the usual two. And
yea, as another person said, it's not really TRIPLEX, because that would
be 3 wires. I'm not sure what they call the 4 conductor stuff, but it's
the same type of cable. The way it's connected, it's a 240V feed. So
my guess is that either they had 3 phase feeding that store in the past,
or else they just used the cable they had on hand when they installed
it. It's been there awhile, the building is probably close to 100 years
old. I noticed it because there is a deck on the building next door,
and I was on the deck last week. The entrance head is probably only 12
feet up from that deck, it's easy to see the unused wire. I tend to
notice stuff like that, after doing construction most of my life.

Your original post is unclear. When you say the 4th wire is not connected
to anything, are you referring to the bare wire?

If so, then I gotta repeat the question trader4 asked:

How can it be a neutral if it's not connected to anything? Furthermore, a
neutral carries current and therefore must be insulated. How can you call a
bare wire not connected to anything a neutral?

If it's not connected it's neither a hot, a neutral or a ground. It's just
a wire. If it's bare, then it wouldn't be a neutral even if it was
connected to something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He just clarified that 4th unconnected wire is
one of the insulated conductors. So, like he says,
if that is what;s there, then it's apparently a 240V
service that might have been 3 phase before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess I'm missing where he specifically "clarified that 4th
unconnected wire is one of the insulated conductors".

Did I miss a post?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He made two posts. In the second he said:

"Yep, the bare wire is the support, but it's also the neutral.
There are 3 insulated wires wrapped around the bare one,
not the usual two. "

If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected. The only
remaining possibility is that one of the three insulated
conductors is the unconnected 4th wire.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right, I saw that second post.

We're still taking his word for it that it's the neutral. Even you
said: "If it's the neutral, then it has to be connected."

He also said that the way it's connected, ie with one of
the 4 wires unconnected, it looks like a 240V service.
With a 240V service, you have two hots and a neutral,
all of which are connected.
Yes, he didn't come right out and say that it's one of
the insulated conductors that is unconnected, but it's
the only interpretation that makes sense.


What really confused everything is even though it the the description
was ambiguous you ran with the "unconnected neutral" and started
defending your position. Then later it became the OPs fault that you did
that. I suppose thats what personal responsibility means.





As long as we're still starting our sentences with "If" there's still
room for confusion.

I rented a house in the Outer Banks this summer and saw where there
were 2 insulated wires and a bare wire coming from the pole. At first
it appeared to me that the bare wire was only the support and that
there as no ground (which made me curious), but closer investigation
showed it to be the ground also. That was the first time I had seen a
set up like that.



That is the classic case. It's how alll the overhead services
I've seen are done. They use the base wire as both
support and neutral.



Where's the picture (or a more detailed description) from the OP that
will clarify all this?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

About 80% of this thread would have been eliminated
if the description would have been clearer. How hard
is it to just say "One of the 3 insulated conductors is
not connected."

On 1/14/2013 2:46 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:20:23 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Did you read the part where he says the "neutral"
is not connected to anything? Sounds like a support
wire to me.

I did *NOT* say that.....
Learn to read for comprehension!!!


Exactly, the thread grew because trader ran with that and then later
declared it was your fault that he did.