On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:07:56 -0500, krw wrote:

Does anyone know how to get a pressure washer to spray the stuff?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917337.jpg

Put it in the pressure washer's soap tank? Do any pressure washers
suck up the "soap" when they're running at pressure? Every one I've
seen will only draw from the tank when it's running very low pressure

I'm confused.

I could not figure out HOW to get the pressure washer to suck a fluid out
of an external tank (i.e., a soap tank).

Clearly my Honda pressure washer has a mechanism for sucking up the fluid
as shown in the picture - but I've never done it.

Q: What do I have to do to a pressure washer to make it suck from the
soap tank? Is there a valve or setting I have to twist or turn?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11924751.jpg

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:37:15 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Note: The amount of urushiol you see dripping in that one picture can
poison the entire population of the planet, according to the prior
references! wow.

Is there a market for that product?

If there is, let me know 'cuz I have enough urushiol sap to contaminate
everyone on earth very many times over!

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:13:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:07:56 -0500, krw wrote:

Does anyone know how to get a pressure washer to spray the stuff?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917337.jpg

Put it in the pressure washer's soap tank? Do any pressure washers
suck up the "soap" when they're running at pressure? Every one I've
seen will only draw from the tank when it's running very low pressure

I'm confused.

I could not figure out HOW to get the pressure washer to suck a fluid out
of an external tank (i.e., a soap tank).

Clearly my Honda pressure washer has a mechanism for sucking up the fluid
as shown in the picture - but I've never done it.

Q: What do I have to do to a pressure washer to make it suck from the
soap tank? Is there a valve or setting I have to twist or turn?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11924751.jpg

Fill the tube with liquid to prime the vacuum from the pump?

Never tried it, but it would be my guess.

"Danny D." wrote:
Brooklyn1 wrote:

There are similar cutters that mount on small tractors, that's how
roadway shoulders are cleared of heavy brush... they're called "flail
mowers". From your pictures it appears one could easily clear your
property down to stumps with a small tractor with a cab

Understood. They clear the roads out here all the time with a five foot
wide cutter than arcs high and can get behind the guardrails (banging
them up in the process).

That WOULD work for the part that I just cleared, but not for the part
deep down in the ravine 100 feet below (which is inaccessible to tractors
AFAIK).

Probably not in my budget though.

You don't need to buy, you can rent. But I were you I'd contract with
a local land clearing company... since it appears that you really need
to get the job done it pays to have the pros do it... they have the
equipment and the know how. Often attempting such jobs oneself the
cheap turns out expensive. You might be pleasantly surprised to find
out having the pros do it doesn't cost as much as you may think. Get
some estimates, that's also a great way to learn some good ways to
approach your problem from folks who actually know. I know that it
can be very tough on certain people's egos but there are some jobs one
shouldn't do themselves, from what I can see I think this is such a
job. Were it my property I'd have the company that removes trees for
me do that job, they'd arrive with a small crew (maybe four men), in
no time all that heavy brush would go into their heavy shredder, it
would get trucked to a dump site. Then they'd come in and till and
power rake your entire field. In practically no time all your
problems would be over and you'd have nice fresh land to do with as
you will. I don't remember seeing where you mention how much land is
involved (acres?), I'm guestimating from your pictures that job will
cost you about $1,000, well worth it. Jobs like yours are almost all
labor, there are no materials involved like when putting in a gravel
roadway... only material for your job is like $100 diesel.
Either of these companys can do your job, I've used both several times
each, both are very reliable and honest. If all you want is to remove
the brush contact LB, if you want to remove the brush and totally
improve the topography contact Maggio:
http://www.maggioandsons.com/
http://lbtreeservice.com/index.htm

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:13:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:07:56 -0500, krw wrote:

Does anyone know how to get a pressure washer to spray the stuff?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917337.jpg

Put it in the pressure washer's soap tank? Do any pressure washers
suck up the "soap" when they're running at pressure? Every one I've
seen will only draw from the tank when it's running very low pressure

I'm confused.

I could not figure out HOW to get the pressure washer to suck a fluid out
of an external tank (i.e., a soap tank).

Clearly my Honda pressure washer has a mechanism for sucking up the fluid
as shown in the picture - but I've never done it.

Q: What do I have to do to a pressure washer to make it suck from the
soap tank? Is there a valve or setting I have to twist or turn?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11924751.jpg

My new pressure washer has two built-in tanks, it will suck at low or
high pressure settings, and can set the suck rate.
Love it:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o03_s00_i00

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 19:01:11 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

I hope you are using Ivy Block or something similar.

Heh heh. (I think) I may be a bit different than most people, partly
because I'm often literally slathered in urushiol laced sap, so I'd be
using gallons of those expensive cremes.

Of course, even with long-sleeved shirts, I still get rashes on my face,
ears, neck, wrists, hands, and ankles (I never can figure out how the
ankles get it, but they do).

Those expensive solutions (ivy block, technu, zanfel, etc.) are for
governments who can afford overpaying for them or for people who use only
a little bit, who also can afford the outrageous prices they charge.

Me?

What I use (as much as I need) is pictured he
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917988.jpg

IVYBLOCK:
After researching how Ivy Block came about (firemen didn't get poison oak
in their their arm pits which had deodorant containing bentonite), I
picked up that bag of bentonite clay from a well driller.

TECHNU/ZANFEL:
After researching how the $40/ounce spermicide-laced polyethylene-grit
detergents worked, I came up with 22 cents/ounce Dawn dishwashing liquid
as my affordable alternative, which I slather on with wanton abandon.

In addition, I just learned from this patent about a NEW SOLUTION!
- United States Patent 4,594,239, June 10, 1986,
- Method for neutralizing offensive chemicals
- http://tinyurl.com/ah7myn3

This solution (which also reputedly works for skunk stink) is essentially
a weak solution of a chloramine (such as the pool chemical trichlor) and
a weak solution of a wetting agent (such as rubbing alcohol or acetone).

This is good news because Ivy Block (and my bentonite substitute) only
works BEFORE exposure; and Technu/Zanfel mostly work best within 15
minutes of exposure (for the most part) ...

But, this cheap solution of, essentially, bleach + alcohol, can be rubbed
on my face, hands, wrists, neck, ears, etc., every 15 minutes while I'm
working!

I'm not one for old wives tales - so I have to experiment personally with
this patented idea - but the fact it has a patent is a good thing because
it must be vetted somehow with experimental results.

I wonder why I've NEVER SEEN THIS solution in the web searches to date???

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 10:42:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

How about power pruners like:
http://www.blackanddecker.com/outdoor/LP1000.aspx or the pro versions?

Wow. That looks like a mean pruner!
This is the FIRST suggestion which is actually affordable (i.e., $80).
I do have a 20 inch hedge clipper - but it gets hung up on the vines all
the time, so I didn't even mention it. But THIS pruner, wow, it sure
looks like it might do the job if I can get an 18-inch long jaw.

Do you know about Technu IvyBlock and Technu Extreme?

I've researched the chemicals in those expensive creams in great detail.
What I use is the cheaper base alternative shown in this photograph:
Bentonite clay (IvyBlock), Dawn Dish Detergent + alchohol (Technu/Zanfel)
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917988.jpg

In my very humble opinion, only people who work for the government (e.g.,
firemen) can afford these expensive $40/ounce solutions.

The problem with IvyBlock (or my driller's clay) is that you have to put
it on ahead of time; and the problem with Technu (or dish detergent +
alcohol) is that it mostly works in the first 15 minutes.

But, I just found this patent which will give me a great new solution!
- United States Patent 4,594,239, June 10, 1986,
- Method for neutralizing offensive chemicals
- http://tinyurl.com/ah7myn3

I can take diluted bleach (or pool trichlor) and mix it with rubbing
alcohol (or acetone) as a wetting agent, and that will oxidize the
urushiol sap just enough so that the body's T Cells won't recognize it
anymore as offensive.

The beauty of this (new to me) approach is that I can afford to slather
this new decontamination solution on my face, hands, wrists, ears, and
neck every fifteen minutes while working in the ravines.

The amazing thing is that I had never heard of this decontamination
solution until just yesterday! I found it out on rec.photo.digital when I
asked how to decontaminate my expensive Nikon SLR which is clearly
covered in urushiol sap by now!

Danny D. wrote:

The patent prefers a solution of acetone + butyl acetate +
trichloroisocyanuric acid for neutralizing urushiol on skin, clothes,
and equipment;

What is butyl acetate and where would you get it?

I thought you were going to spray it on the plants.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...

United States Patent 4,594,239, to Pluim, Jr., on June 10, 1986
Titled: Method for neutralizing offensive chemicals
http://tinyurl.com/ah7myn3

Summary:
Urushiol causes dermatitis by changing the surface proteins in the skin
so the body no longer recognizes the skin as human, and attacks it.

That effect is actually fairly easy to interfere with. Pretty much any
change to the urushiol molecule would probably prevent dermatitis.

Chlorine bleach is a strong oxidizing agent, and should easily do the
trick. Getting it into the oil would be aided by adding alcohol or
acetone as a wetting agent, but a strong surfactant should also work.

The patent prefers a solution of acetone + butyl acetate +
trichloroisocyanuric acid for neutralizing urushiol on skin, clothes, and
equipment; but if I preferentially select just the common household
chemicals discussed, the patent seems says that 2% to 6% common bleach
alone or combined with 5% to 20% rubbing alcohol (or acetone) as a
wetting agent will neutralize urushiol in about 1 minute.

The patent even explains how adding certain ferrous compounds will
actually make the toxic urushiol glow green, while the decontaminated
urushiol will not.

Armed with this information, I can create a decontamination mix out of
the prescribed pool chemicals and rubbing alcohol, which I can use to
wash my face, hands, neck, ears, and wrists every 15 minutes, while
removing the poison oak in the field!

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 20:01:52 -0800, Pat wrote:

They make cutters that mount on excavators look here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX66xyk0InQ

I WISH I had an excavator/cutter like that one!

Look around. Someone in the area will have one. Hire him.

That WOULD work for the part that I just cleared, but not for the part
deep down in the ravine 100 feet below (which is inaccessible to tractors
AFAIK).

Probably not in my budget though.

A excavator can work a steep slope with a second rig on top with a winch. A
tow truck can be used.

On 01-09-2013 08:33, TimR wrote:
I wonder if it is possible to build or rebuild an immunity to poison ivy, like you can to iocaine powder (see Princess Bride).

Fictional stuff aside, I and others have noted becoming less sensitve to
poison oak over time and have attributed it to drinking the milk of
goats that eat the stuff. I am not aware of any experiments to test
that hypothesis, but the immune effect is real, whatever its cause.

--
Wes Groleau

€œBrigham Young agrees to confine himself to one woman,
if every member of Congress will do the same.€�
€” Weekly Republican, 1869

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:22:27 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I thought you were going to spray it on the plants.

Naaah. I'm gonna spray me!

The side of my face has a rash, the back of my ears, my neck where the
camera strap was, and my wrists where the TIG welding gloves lifted up.

And how a drop or few of urushiol sap got on my ankle is a mystery to me
as I was wearing tall rubber boots.

After reading that patent, today I conjured up a triplet solution of 1/3
bleach (oxidizing agent), 1/3 rubbing alcohol (wetting agent), and 1/3
dish detergent (surfactant) and rubbed those spots for about five minutes
in a hot shower today. (Note: Yes, I've heard hot water 'opens the
pores', but I've never heard that urushiol enters via the pores, so I
don't see any good reason to take a cold shower.)

Hopefully that will help but, looking at the Zanfel ingredients:
http://www.empr.com/zanfel/drug/878/
What I really need to add is the spermicide and polyethylene granules!

Do you have any experience with spermicides & PEG?

I googled them and the spermicides seem to be something the lady folks
may know more about but which may be easy to buy at the drug store.

The polyethylene granules may have a common household substitute???

Danny D. wrote:

Do you have any experience with spermicides & PEG?

Drug stores will have spermicide creams.

But your problem is going to be finding spermicides without lubricants.

For the abrasive, maybe toothpaste will work as it has sand in it.

On 01-09-2013 00:04, Danny D. wrote:
Nobody is immune to cell mediated immunity.

Or as my four-year-old sister said,
"There's no such thing of that, 'cause I never heard of it!"

They said no one is immune to smallpox--your lack of scar PROVES you
were never vaccinated. So they did it again.

Two years later, same argument, same result.

My sensitivity to poison oak DEcreased from 1967 to 1972. Don't know
why, but I've posted my hypothesis already.

--
Wes Groleau

Don't get even €” get odd!

On 01-09-2013 01:05, Danny D. wrote:
Now, maybe the goats milk matters - because the immune system DOES work
the way you said it does (i.e., when exposed at the right time in the
immune system development, the immune system learns what is body and what
is foreign) - so I am NOT saying you're wrong ... I'm just cautioning
anyone from actually touching the stuff with bare hands on purpose!

TRUE--but many accidental exposures had appeared to confirm the goat's
milk hypothesis. So, being young and foolish, I assumed I was immune
and abandoned precautions. And got away with it.

When it was my son's turn to be young and foolish, he formed the
hypothesis that he could immunize himself by limited contact.
If you know where to look, you can still make out the scars.

The other thing to remember is that the oil is NOT on the outside
of the plant. Not outside the leaves, stem, berries, or root. But
it's inside all of them, so, you (and I) can pick it up (gingerly)
and nothing bad will happen.

Ah, I would question that as well. Before my resistance developed, the
slightest contact had severe effects.

By the way, some of that resistance has gone away over time.

--
Wes Groleau

ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI

On 01-09-2013 01:22, Danny D. wrote:
If they chew on the bark, there's no way they're not exposed to the
urushiol in huge amounts!

Here is a full-sized picture of what's just under the bark on a small
vine, of the type they might chew on. They must have amazing guts!

Well, remember your posts about changing the chemical structure.
Hydrochloric acid and whatever else is in goats' stomachs would probably
do that.

And they don't chew much at first. Like cows, they pick and swallow
rapidly, then they relax somewhere, cough it back up and chew it thoroughly.

--
Wes Groleau

After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed
all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him
three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, €œThat preacher
said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to
stay with you guys."

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:43:07 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

I and others have noted becoming
less sensitive to poison oak over time and have attributed
it to drinking the milk of goats that eat the stuff.

I suspect that very well could be the case. Allergies are clearly complex
things, and they clearly have competing actions.

For example, we all know that to be exposed to allergens as a child when
our immune systems are developing is a way for the body to learn to
ignore harmless things such as almost invisible pollen or mold or dust.

Yet, there's the conflicting statement in this UC Davis site:
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7431.html
Which says (verbatim):
"Once a reaction occurs, repeated exposures further increase
sensitivity. Conversely, long periods with no exposure will
reduce an individuals susceptibility."

That sentence makes sense based on how cell mediated immune responses
work in the body.

Yet, on the contrary side, as you noted, you can be exposed to the
allergen via other methods (in your case, via goat's milk).

For example, this site says some people were sensitized to urushiol via
mangoes:
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/si...rm+@DOCNO+7485

And this Wikipedia article says the same thing about cashew nuts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushio...act_dermatitis

Of course, people with AIDS or other immune disorders are said to have
vastly less of a response to poison oak.
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0802.htm

And, just as our eyes and muscle mass deteriorate as we age, I suspect
our immune systems go downhill also as we age, which would potentially
affect the effect of urushiol on our bodies.

So, my only point is that the immune system is so complex, and so variant
by individual and age, that I don't doubt that goat's milk might help
confer greater immunity to the urushiol.

As for me, if the rash on my neck, ears, cheek, wrists and ankle is of
any evidence, I'm clearly not immune. Of course, this site says that a
single drop the size of a pinhead can infect 500 people:
http://poisonivy.aesir.com/view/fastfacts.html

So, I would be shocked if I did not get a rash, after all the globs of
sap that I was exposed to this week.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 02:21:57 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

The other thing to remember is that the oil is NOT on the outside of
the plant. Not outside the leaves, stem, berries, or root. But it's
inside all of them, so, you (and I) can pick it up (gingerly)
and nothing bad will happen.

Ah, I would question that as well.
Before my resistance developed, the slightest contact
had severe effects.

Botanically, a pristine plant has cell walls, and these cell walls keep
the urushiol-laced sap from being on the outside of the roots, vines,
stems, leaves, flowers, and berries of Toxicodendron diversilobum.

However, in nature, a pristine plant would be hard to find, so, I don't
doubt one bit that there may be oils on the OUTSIDE of the plant!

For a graphic example, look at this picture of me holding a Pacific
Poison Oak plant that I just cut with a chain saw.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917694.jpg

Clearly the oils are on the outside of this (brutally damaged) plant!
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11925505.jpg

It turns out it doesn't take all that much to damage a cell wall, so, I
don't doubt that urushiol sap would be on the OUTSIDE of a (damaged)
plant. Here, for example, is a shot from yesterday where I circled all
the obvious areas where the urushiol-laced sap bled from the vine:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11925520.jpg

Given that a pin head worth of urushiol can infect 500 people, and that a
quarter ounce of the stuff can infect every human on earth
(REF: http://poisonivy.aesir.com/view/fastfacts.html)

I wonder what the CONCENTRATION of urushiol is in the dripping sap in my
photos (because I clearly was exposed yesterday to a thousand times what
it takes to infect everyone on earth).

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 02:28:48 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

If they chew on the bark, there's no way they're not exposed to the
urushiol in huge amounts!

Well, remember your posts about changing the chemical structure.
Hydrochloric acid and whatever else is in goats' stomachs would probably
do that.

Yes, I remember.

Here's basically what we said:
"Urushiol causes dermatitis by changing the surface proteins
in the skin so the body no longer recognizes the skin as human,
and then attacks it (cytokine storm). That effect should be fairly
easy to interfere with because any change to the urushiol molecule
would probably prevent the class IV delayed sensitivity dermatitis.
Chlorine bleach is a strong oxidizing agent which should easily
do the trick. Getting the oxidizer into the oil would be aided by
adding alcohol or acetone as a wetting agent, but a strong surfactant
should also work. Spermicides help to get under the layers of skin.
And polyethylene granules act as an abrasive to remove the horny
barrier."

I assume your hypothesis is that the goat's stomach acids change the
urushiol allergen ever so slightly, such that our body no longer
recognizes the quinone as an allergan in our bodies.

Maybe that is the case, because humans have been known to die from
ingesting urushiol and Lord knows, there is tons of sap in a single vine
as shown in this short 20 second video I took yesterday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYcJslc6ymE

Since, after being covered in urushiol from chainsawing the stuff for
hours, I don't have time for the goat's milk remedy, I am applying the
following five-ingredient poor-man's zanfel/technu as follows:

a. oxidizer (common household sodium hypochlorite or non-chlorine bleach)
b. wetting agent (household rubbing alcohol or acetone)
c. surfactant (common household dish detergent)

To a 1:1:1 solution of those three ingredients, I will dab a paste of
d. non-oily spermicide cream
plus a squirt of
e. abrasive toothpaste

And, then, I will rub all five ingredients into the rash on my neck,
ears, cheek, wrists, and ankle, and call you in the morning!

PS: Here's a picture of the poor-man's Ivy Block which is bentonite clay
that I get for free from the well drilling rigs common here in the hills:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11917988.jpg

Hint: It's the active ingredient in the expensive Ivy Block creme!

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:23:57 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

I am applying the following five-ingredient poor-man's
zanfel/technu as follows:
a. oxidizer (common household sodium hypochlorite or non-chlorine
bleach)
b. wetting agent (household rubbing alcohol or acetone)
c. surfactant (common household dish detergent)

To a 1:1:1 solution of those three ingredients, I will dab a paste of d.
non-oily spermicide cream plus a squirt of e. abrasive toothpaste

And, then, I will rub all five ingredients into the rash on my neck,
ears, cheek, wrists, and ankle, and call you in the morning!

Here is the detoxifying 'kit', sans the oil-free spermicide:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11926557.jpg

It's all news, to me. I've heard of baking soda and hydrogen peroxide (and a
couple drops of soap) for skunk spray, but this urishol treatment, I've
never read or done anything.

I hope it works, and can help others.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:22:27 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I thought you were going to spray it on the plants.

Naaah. I'm gonna spray me!

The side of my face has a rash, the back of my ears, my neck where the
camera strap was, and my wrists where the TIG welding gloves lifted up.

And how a drop or few of urushiol sap got on my ankle is a mystery to me
as I was wearing tall rubber boots.

After reading that patent, today I conjured up a triplet solution of 1/3
bleach (oxidizing agent), 1/3 rubbing alcohol (wetting agent), and 1/3
dish detergent (surfactant) and rubbed those spots for about five minutes
in a hot shower today. (Note: Yes, I've heard hot water 'opens the
pores', but I've never heard that urushiol enters via the pores, so I
don't see any good reason to take a cold shower.)

Hopefully that will help but, looking at the Zanfel ingredients:
http://www.empr.com/zanfel/drug/878/
What I really need to add is the spermicide and polyethylene granules!

Do you have any experience with spermicides & PEG?

I googled them and the spermicides seem to be something the lady folks
may know more about but which may be easy to buy at the drug store.

The polyethylene granules may have a common household substitute???

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:57:03 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I hope it works, and can help others.

Me too.

Just to be clear, I didn't make any of it up.

The ingredients come from the researching the ingredients of IvyBlock,
Technu, Zanfel, and from patent http://tinyurl.com/ah7myn3 (which is
rather explicit as to what chemicals and what concentrations to use).

Here's my field kit:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11926557.jpg

Three of the ingredients are for cleaning my camera and chainsaw, and
adding two more specifically is for removing urushiol from skin:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11926802.jpg

I used this Mcgyveresque field kit last night on the rash on my cheek,
ears, wrists, ankle, and neck (from the camera strap) - and - well - it
was kind of a cool menthol feeling (probably from the mix of fast-drying
alcohol & toothpaste).

It feels less itchy today but be wary of such proclamations from anyone
who isn't doing at least a single-blind test as the placebo effect is
real.

Nonetheless, the science is there for these five ingredients:
a. Oxidizer (to change the urushiol)
b. Surfactant (to remove the oil)
c. Wetting agent (to get to the urushiol in the oil)
d. Abrasive (to scrub away the horny layer)
e. Spermicide (to dig under the overlapping skin cells)

I'll check out the spermicides today, but I hope I can find a non oily
one. If anyone has experience with this, let me know.

Danny D. wrote:

Nonetheless, the science is there for these five ingredients:
a. Oxidizer (to change the urushiol)
b. Surfactant (to remove the oil)
c. Wetting agent (to get to the urushiol in the oil)
d. Abrasive (to scrub away the horny layer)
e. Spermicide (to dig under the overlapping skin cells)

Seems to me this is a field kit for chemical warfare detoxification.

after thinking about this for awhile.......

the plants didnt get so large overnite. do you REALLY need access to
that land. this is one case where it might be better to just avoid the
area and ignore it.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:57:50 -0800, bob haller wrote:

the plants didnt get so large overnite. do you REALLY need access to
that land. this is one case where it might be better to just avoid the
area and ignore it.

Nope. That's the whole point. I don't have to clean up any of this poison
oak. So, I can take my time.

Basically, when I get in the mood for a good fight, I head down to the
ravine for battle. It's really more of a hobby to figure out how to
defeat the poison oak, to beat it at its own game - and not get rashed in
the process.

It has been a tough battle - but I've learned a lot in just the past few
days, so, eventually, I'll know the secret.

Today I talked to a pharmacist. I must have gotten a bad apple because
she kept telling me it's for women and that it won't work on the skin and
that it wasn't an "approved purpose".

I need to find a pharmacist who can actually think out of the box.
(It doesn't seem to be their specialty as all they do is follow the
rules.)

On 01-10-2013 02:36, Danny D. wrote:
Yet, on the contrary side, as you noted, you can be exposed to the
allergen via other methods (in your case, via goat's milk).

Well, that's the hypothesis. I don't KNOW that it's in the milk.
In fact, it probably isn't. But something derived from it may be.

--
Wes Groleau

In any formula, constants (especially those obtained
from handbooks) are to be treated as variables.

On 01-10-2013 23:08, Danny D. wrote:
I need to find a pharmacist who can actually think out of the box.
(It doesn't seem to be their specialty as all they do is follow the
rules.)

I once argued for five minutes with a pharmacist who didn't want to fill
my prescription for four 85 cc doses of Lovenox. "Only comes in fifty
and a hundred." I finally convinced him I am capable of squirting
fifteen CC into the sink.

--
Wes Groleau

In any formula, constants (especially those obtained
from handbooks) are to be treated as variables.

I have a similar "while I have the time" project. I collect rocks out of a
farmer's field, and fill mudholes with them. One I've been working on, is
where the utility guys pull off the road to do phone wiring. The mudhole is
probably four by 10 feet or so. I've put in a bunch of buckets of rocks, and
I'm falling behind. The mudhole is still there.

A few years back, I used buckets of rock to fill the sink holes at my
church, next to the storm drain.

Farmers are better off without the rocks, and the rest of the world is
better off without the sink holes. I only harvest rocks between crops,
won't walk on shoots or harvestable crops.

I also am not all that impressed with "in the box" thinkers.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...

Nope. That's the whole point. I don't have to clean up any of this poison
oak. So, I can take my time.

Basically, when I get in the mood for a good fight, I head down to the
ravine for battle. It's really more of a hobby to figure out how to
defeat the poison oak, to beat it at its own game - and not get rashed in
the process.

It has been a tough battle - but I've learned a lot in just the past few
days, so, eventually, I'll know the secret.

Today I talked to a pharmacist. I must have gotten a bad apple because
she kept telling me it's for women and that it won't work on the skin and
that it wasn't an "approved purpose".

I need to find a pharmacist who can actually think out of the box.
(It doesn't seem to be their specialty as all they do is follow the
rules.)

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:35:56 -0500, Frank wrote:

Have you tried 2,4D? It works on my poison ivy.

Hi Frank,
2,4D (aka Agent Orange) might work, especially if I could drop it out
of the sky like they did in Vietnam - which - is my real problem with
weed killers.

The poison oak plants I have are 20 feet long by something like 5 to
10 to 20 feet deep, so, there's just no way a normal weed killer
sprayer is going to go the distance.

Today I tried to see if I could get my pressure washer to suck out of
the 5 gallon pesticide jug - but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

Does anyone know how to get a pressure washer to spray the stuff?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/.../11917337.jpg\

Have you tried a hose end sprayer. Mine easily sprays 20 feet. I'd use one of
the "fill spray jar for 6 gallons" variety. You'll have to wait for spring
growth first for most sprays to work.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 02:07:03 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

Well, that's the hypothesis. I don't KNOW that it's in the milk. In
fact, it probably isn't. But something derived from it may be.

It depends a LOT on what's in the milk, and, what your body does to it.
The entire process is complicated, and I don't profess to fully
understand it.

But, it starts with urushiol & T cells.

The actual urushiol is a benzene ring with two hydroxides (i.e., a
catechol), with a specific alkyl group which is slightly different
depending on species (e.g., poison ivy = 15 carbon chain, poison oak = 17
carbon chain). This molecule is harmless, and it, in and of itself, does
not provoke the immune response.

The immune response is complicated in so much as the longer carbon chains
in poison oak sap appear to have a greater immune response than the
shorter ones of ivy ... and ... the more unsaturated the chain (i.e.,
double bonds), the more our immune systems react to it (at least it says
so in Wikipedia).

Once on the skin, the oil penetrates to the lower antigen-presenting
immune cells whose job is to capture foreign invaders and transport them
to the lymph notes to be presented as evidence to the specific white
blood cells which had matured in the thymus in front of your heart, and
which play a role in the cell mediated immune response.

Since T cells, which originate in the bone marrow, randomly mutate in the
thymus, some of those mutations select for "self" proteins. But that's
bad news for the body, so the thymus has a system for weeding out these
miscreants.

Unfortunately, what the thymus lets out are T cells who have receptors
that key for the quinole that the urushiol oxidizes to. Hence the rash.

Point is, this is a complicated mechanism, which, we have only two basic
approaches to combat:

1. Build up an immunity (i.e., don't create Tcells coded for the quinone)
or
2. Remove the quinone from the body as soon as you can

I'm working on the second approach ... you've resolved the first.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:34:56 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:35:56 -0500, Frank wrote:

Have you tried 2,4D? It works on my poison ivy.

Hi Frank,
2,4D (aka Agent Orange) might work, especially if I could drop it out
of the sky like they did in Vietnam - which - is my real problem with
weed killers.

The poison oak plants I have are 20 feet long by something like 5 to
10 to 20 feet deep, so, there's just no way a normal weed killer
sprayer is going to go the distance.

Today I tried to see if I could get my pressure washer to suck out of
the 5 gallon pesticide jug - but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

Does anyone know how to get a pressure washer to spray the stuff?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/.../11917337.jpg\

Have you tried a hose end sprayer. Mine easily sprays 20 feet. I'd use one of
the "fill spray jar for 6 gallons" variety. You'll have to wait for spring
growth first for most sprays to work.

Every power washer I've ever seen has a place to attach a tube for
sucking up liquid, often there's a port right on the spray gun housing
.... most normal brained folks would ask the power washer's customer
service department... and it's really dumb to ask about a power washer
without indicating the brand/model number.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:34:56 -0800, Bob F wrote:

Have you tried a hose end sprayer. Mine easily sprays 20 feet. I'd use
one of the "fill spray jar for 6 gallons" variety. You'll have to wait
for spring growth first for most sprays to work.

If I had a sprayer that went 20 feet, that would go a long way toward
killing (at least half) the Pacific Poison Oak I want dead.

I tried getting my Honda pressure washer to spray from a 5 gallon jug,
but I haven't figured out the controls to do so.

The best time to spray, I'm told, is when the fruits are out.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:17:21 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Every power washer I've ever seen has a place to attach a tube for
sucking up liquid, often there's a port right on the spray gun housing
... most normal brained folks would ask the power washer's customer
service department... and it's really dumb to ask about a power washer
without indicating the brand/model number.

This power washer has not only a place to suck up liquid, but it already
has a hose attached. It's just not sucking up the liquid!

I'm sure it's because it needs a switch (somehow) flipped!

Here's a picture of the PowerStroke washer I just took for you.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11936549.jpg

It uses the Honda GC160 engine, if that helps.

Here is a closeup of the markings & the valving apparatus:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11936568.jpg

If anyone has ever used their pressure washer to suck out of the hose,
they would probably know what the secret configuration setup might be.

On 1/11/2013 10:57 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:34:56 -0800, Bob F wrote:

Have you tried a hose end sprayer. Mine easily sprays 20 feet. I'd use
one of the "fill spray jar for 6 gallons" variety. You'll have to wait
for spring growth first for most sprays to work.

If I had a sprayer that went 20 feet, that would go a long way toward
killing (at least half) the Pacific Poison Oak I want dead.

I tried getting my Honda pressure washer to spray from a 5 gallon jug,
but I haven't figured out the controls to do so.

The best time to spray, I'm told, is when the fruits are out.


i have a weed sprayer container that sucks via an venturi, that attaches
to a regular hose that will easily shoot 20' in a stream, or can be
adjusted to spray in a fan. it only cost a few dollars at the borg.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/76/76711d76-df80-405e-8836-d025a8429b88_300.jpg

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:12:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I also am not all that impressed with "in the box" thinkers.

Yup. I agree.

With poison oak, everyone says hire someone else to get the rash, or to
spray it. That's thinking INSIDE the box.

Thinking OUTSIDE the box is figuring out a way to remove it mechanically,
but efficiently (I agree, the chainsaw is a lousy idea, so that's why I
had asked).

Most of the out-of-the-box answers that came back were GREAT, albeit a
bit on the expensive side for something I don't have to do (like hiring
out trucks with mechanical arms and rotary blades on the end).

I did like the idea of the salt (although it had some big drawbacks), and
the evil-looking $80 pruner that was suggested seemed within my budget.

I immediately discounted the out-of-the-box idea of burning it or hand
pruning it, the former due to the danger of smoke inhalation, and the
latter to the sheer number of manyears it would require to methodically
cut each vine individually.

As for cleanup after the inevitable exposure, I certainly appreciated all
the in-the-box suggestions of using Technu & Zanfel. For removal, I
prefer my out-of-the-box in-the-box duplication of those EXPENSIVE
solutions using simple dish detergent (surfactant), bleach (oxidizer),
alcohol (wetting agent), toothpaste (silicon dioxide abrasive), and
spermicide (non-ionic surfactant).

I'm not exactly sure WHY the spermicide works though, but that too much
out-of-the-box thinking for the pharmacist that I had asked.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonoxyn...son_ivy_creams
"Nonoxynol-9 is also found in Zanfel poison ivy cream.
It effectively helps to break up the oil urushiol that causes the rash."

According to that page, they also use the spermicide in shaving cream for
the same reason. This page says the nonoxyl9 is a biocide:
hanskellner.com/2003/04/25/poison-oak-treatment-zanfel-ingredients/

Surprisingly, this Amazon review of Zanfel contains very useful
information as to HOW the nonoxyl9 actually works:
http://www.amazon.com/Zanfel-Poison-...oduct-reviews/
B000GCPWUU?pageNumber=2
But the key takeaway is that it is a fundamental ingredient that we need
to reproduce in our own home remedies.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:16:26 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:17:21 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Every power washer I've ever seen has a place to attach a tube for
sucking up liquid, often there's a port right on the spray gun housing
... most normal brained folks would ask the power washer's customer
service department... and it's really dumb to ask about a power washer
without indicating the brand/model number.

This power washer has not only a place to suck up liquid, but it already
has a hose attached. It's just not sucking up the liquid!

I'm sure it's because it needs a switch (somehow) flipped!

Here's a picture of the PowerStroke washer I just took for you.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11936549.jpg

It uses the Honda GC160 engine, if that helps.

Here is a closeup of the markings & the valving apparatus:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11936568.jpg

If anyone has ever used their pressure washer to suck out of the hose,
they would probably know what the secret configuration setup might be.

Instructions are likely in the owner's manual. This looks like the
same unit... it automatically mixes concentrates. Powerwashers
usually suck concentrate only with the lowest pressure tip, because
they're designed to apply the cleaner and then let it sit, not wash it
right off. If you can't find instructions in the owner's manual phone
the manufacturer.
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-press...p-07175291000P

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:25:40 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

i have a weed sprayer container that sucks via an venturi, that attaches
to a regular hose that will easily shoot 20' in a stream, or can be
adjusted to spray in a fan. it only cost a few dollars at the borg.

Thanks for the picture of that weed sprayer.
It appears to use a garden hose as part of the apparatus?

I mentioned somewhere in this thread that this infestation of poison oak
starts something like 400 or 500 feet from the house (I haven't meaured
it but it's easily a football field away), and goes for a few hundred
feet further in the downhill direction.

It's not impossible to handle 500 feet of garden hose (I probably have
just about that much already) ... it's not the easiest approach.

Personally I'm looking for a more portable solution for the mountain
folks like me who have hilly acreage.

I like a couple things, in this thread.
First, a bunch of folks have chimed in with ideas. That's neat.
You're obviously working at the job, and that's good.
You've done your internet research, which helps duplicate others success,
and not others failures.
And you're going back and changing the process, as you learn.

I'm not a big contributor of useful ideas, but I'm here to cheer you on.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:12:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I also am not all that impressed with "in the box" thinkers.

Yup. I agree.

With poison oak, everyone says hire someone else to get the rash, or to
spray it. That's thinking INSIDE the box.

Thinking OUTSIDE the box is figuring out a way to remove it mechanically,
but efficiently (I agree, the chainsaw is a lousy idea, so that's why I
had asked).

Most of the out-of-the-box answers that came back were GREAT, albeit a
bit on the expensive side for something I don't have to do (like hiring
out trucks with mechanical arms and rotary blades on the end).

I did like the idea of the salt (although it had some big drawbacks), and
the evil-looking $80 pruner that was suggested seemed within my budget.

I immediately discounted the out-of-the-box idea of burning it or hand
pruning it, the former due to the danger of smoke inhalation, and the
latter to the sheer number of manyears it would require to methodically
cut each vine individually.

As for cleanup after the inevitable exposure, I certainly appreciated all
the in-the-box suggestions of using Technu & Zanfel. For removal, I
prefer my out-of-the-box in-the-box duplication of those EXPENSIVE
solutions using simple dish detergent (surfactant), bleach (oxidizer),
alcohol (wetting agent), toothpaste (silicon dioxide abrasive), and
spermicide (non-ionic surfactant).

I'm not exactly sure WHY the spermicide works though, but that too much
out-of-the-box thinking for the pharmacist that I had asked.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonoxyn...son_ivy_creams
"Nonoxynol-9 is also found in Zanfel poison ivy cream.
It effectively helps to break up the oil urushiol that causes the rash."

According to that page, they also use the spermicide in shaving cream for
the same reason. This page says the nonoxyl9 is a biocide:
hanskellner.com/2003/04/25/poison-oak-treatment-zanfel-ingredients/

Surprisingly, this Amazon review of Zanfel contains very useful
information as to HOW the nonoxyl9 actually works:
http://www.amazon.com/Zanfel-Poison-...oduct-reviews/
B000GCPWUU?pageNumber=2
But the key takeaway is that it is a fundamental ingredient that we need
to reproduce in our own home remedies.

Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:25:40 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

i have a weed sprayer container that sucks via an venturi, that
attaches to a regular hose that will easily shoot 20' in a stream,
or can be adjusted to spray in a fan. it only cost a few dollars at
the borg.

Thanks for the picture of that weed sprayer.
It appears to use a garden hose as part of the apparatus?

I mentioned somewhere in this thread that this infestation of poison
oak starts something like 400 or 500 feet from the house (I haven't
meaured it but it's easily a football field away), and goes for a few
hundred feet further in the downhill direction.

It's not impossible to handle 500 feet of garden hose (I probably have
just about that much already) ... it's not the easiest approach.

Personally I'm looking for a more portable solution for the mountain
folks like me who have hilly acreage.

A big tank, water pump, and hose nozzle. You could just pay some gardening
company to spray it for you with their big rig. Or go rent a big sprayer.