For most of you on a.h.r, these lessons will be old hat; but for those of
you (like I was) who have never relocated a torsion spring, these lessons
may come in handy in the future.

WHAT DO MOST GARAGE DOOR COMPANIES DO:
- Most charge around $150 to $200 and will do a great job.
- Most promise same day and next-day service.
- I could do the entire job in an hour - so I'm sure they can too.
- Most will simply replace the old spring with the same size new spring.
- Some will 'upgrade' the spring to a longer-life spring (others won't).
- Some may charge for that longer-life upgrade; others won't.
- Most will adjust and lubricate the door and GDO as a bonus to you.
- Some may try to sell you useless extras, such as galvanized springs or
warranties (the 800 numbers I called were the worst offenders).

MAINTENANCE:
- Snap a picture today of your torsion spring setup (I wish I had this).
- Lubricate the garage door rollers, hinges, GDO mechanism, and torsion
bar bearings (two to three of those bearings may be installed).
- Check that the door is parallel when raised and vertical when lowered.
- Operate the door by hand to check spring balance at multiple positions.
- Close the door and check for tilt by looking for light at the bottom.

RESEARCH:
- I've watched EVERY torsion spring DIY on YouTube and none beat DDM
Garage Doors - so all you need is the ddmgaragedoors.com web site.
- The Richard Kinch truetex web site is the second site you'll need.
- No other web sites are needed although I've read EVERY alt.home.repair
thread that mentions garage doors that I can find in the groups.google.com
archive and while there is 'some' really good information on a.h.r - most
of the threads also contain contradictory garbage, and therefore you must
take every thread with a grain of salt.

REPLACEMENT:
- Replacing a torsion spring is easy and requires basic tools.
- The only special tool are two 18" long 1/2" diameter winding bars.
- A few open end wrenches and a large vise grip is all else you'll need.
- Basically, to remove a single broken torsion spring you climb on your
stepladder, unbolt the two set bolts on the winding cone and remove the
two nuts on the spring end plate side. After marking the location of the
cable drums on the torsion rod, you loosen the set bolts on both cable
drums, and then you simply slide the broken torsion spring off the
torsion rod, leaving the torsion rod at the top of the door and only
removing the one cable drum on the side away from the spring anchor plate.
- Basically, to replace the torsion spring, you side the spring onto the
torsion rod, add a bearing if desired, line up the cable drum prior marks
and tighten the cable drums snug against the bearing end plates and
insert the cables holding them in place with a vice grip tensioning the
tension bar and then proceed to wind the spring. When wound the
prescribed 30 quarter turns (7 1/2 full turns for a 7 foot tall door),
you push out the spring about a quarter inch, and then tighten the
winding cone set bolts. Then you check and adjust and lubricate the
hinges, rollers, bearings, and GDO mechanism.
- If it's a two-spring system, the only additional initial step is to
unwind the unbroken spring before touching anything. Unwinding the old
spring is even easier than winding the new spring and is simply the
reverse operation of 30 quarter turns (7 1/2 full turns) for a 7 foot
tall door.

DANGER:
- I searched the news.google.com archives for gory stories of residential
homeowners being hurt or killed by winding garage door springs at home,
and, I just couldn't find much. This doesn't indicate much other than
it's not a big newsworthy topic I guess - but it's a datapoint.
- EVERY (and I mean every) site says it's dangerous - just as chain saws
and table saws and 220 volt motors and swimming pools are dangerous when
accidents happen - so I'll repeat what the sites say. It is dangerous.
- Winding torsion springs is dangerous because "something can go wrong",
and because "something can break".
- However, having said that, if you take normal precautions against both
of those possibilities, you too can (easily) wind a torsion spring.
- There are plenty of things NOT to do, by the way, when winding torsion
springs ... but the list of things to do are well spelled out at the DDM
Garage Door web site.
- Personally, at no point did I "feel" dire danger, especially after
having removed and reinstalled my torsion spring a half-dozen times. It
became 'almost' routine (therein lies the biggest danger, I suspect, to
garage door repairmen).
- The amount of force needed to wind a 0.250" 36" long torsion spring
with 18" steel bars is well within the strength of a normal man.

THEORY:
- The torsion spring acts like a counterweight to balance the
(appreciable) weight of the door.
- The GDO merely pushes the door open or closed - and in and of itself
does NOT open the door.
- The only lateral movement, assuming the cable drums are tightened
against the bearing end plates, as the door goes up and down is merely
the distance between the coils of the springs.
- Everything else should be locked down tightly (which was my problem).
- In general, the garage door repair company skimps on the springs, by
default, by giving you a 10,000 cycle spring.
- You can ask for longer cycle springs, which, if you keep to the same
inside diameter, are merely thicker gauge wire.
- The only thing that matters is the IPPT (inch pounds per turn) that you
need. Your garage door has a weight and a track & drum geometry that
determines the IPPT you need. Period.
- So, whatever new springs you put on must exert the same IPPT as the old
springs. Period.
- Most people want longer-lasting springs, so, all you need is either a
wider inside diameter spring with the same IPPT or a thicker gauge spring
with the same IPPT.
- In general, you likely won't opt for a wider ID so your choice is
merely a thicker gauge spring.
- Adding a second spring does NOT in any way improve your number of
cycles (only the spring geometry makes a difference in lifetime).
- Adding a second spring has some benefits - but they're relatively minor.
- Your limiting factor in improving lifetime will be how much room you
have as thicker-gauge springs with the same ID and IPPT will be longer
than the original.

Adding a second spring significantly reduces or eliminates the severity of the force with which the garage door comes down on a person or a vehicle if the single spring breaks. Some technicians will want to replace your double spring with a single spring so they don’t have to go back to the shop to get another spring. Don’t let them.

On Dec 7, 1:31*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
For most of you on a.h.r, these lessons will be old hat; but for those of
you (like I was) who have never relocated a torsion spring, these lessons
may come in handy in the future.

WHAT DO MOST GARAGE DOOR COMPANIES DO:
- Most charge around $150 to $200 and will do a great job.
- Most promise same day and next-day service.
- I could do the entire job in an hour - so I'm sure they can too.
- Most will simply replace the old spring with the same size new spring.
- Some will 'upgrade' the spring to a longer-life spring (others won't).
- Some may charge for that longer-life upgrade; others won't.
- Most will adjust and lubricate the door and GDO as a bonus to you.
- Some may try to sell you useless extras, such as galvanized springs or
warranties (the 800 numbers I called were the worst offenders).

MAINTENANCE:
- Snap a picture today of your torsion spring setup (I wish I had this).
- Lubricate the garage door rollers, hinges, GDO mechanism, and torsion
bar bearings (two to three of those bearings may be installed).
- Check that the door is parallel when raised and vertical when lowered.
- Operate the door by hand to check spring balance at multiple positions.
- Close the door and check for tilt by looking for light at the bottom.

RESEARCH:
- I've watched EVERY torsion spring DIY on YouTube and none beat DDM
Garage Doors - so all you need is the ddmgaragedoors.com web site.
- The Richard Kinch truetex web site is the second site you'll need.
- No other web sites are needed although I've read EVERY alt.home.repair
thread that mentions garage doors that I can find in the groups.google.com
archive and while there is 'some' really good information on a.h.r - most
of the threads also contain contradictory garbage, and therefore you must
take every thread with a grain of salt.

REPLACEMENT:
- Replacing a torsion spring is easy and requires basic tools.
- The only special tool are two 18" long 1/2" diameter winding bars.
- A few open end wrenches and a large vise grip is all else you'll need.
- Basically, to remove a single broken torsion spring you climb on your
stepladder, unbolt the two set bolts on the winding cone and remove the
two nuts on the spring end plate side. After marking the location of the
cable drums on the torsion rod, you loosen the set bolts on both cable
drums, and then you simply slide the broken torsion spring off the
torsion rod, leaving the torsion rod at the top of the door and only
removing the one cable drum on the side away from the spring anchor plate..
- Basically, to replace the torsion spring, you side the spring onto the
torsion rod, add a bearing if desired, line up the cable drum prior marks
and tighten the cable drums snug against the bearing end plates and
insert the cables holding them in place with a vice grip tensioning the
tension bar and then proceed to wind the spring. When wound the
prescribed 30 quarter turns (7 1/2 full turns for a 7 foot tall door),
you push out the spring about a quarter inch, and then tighten the
winding cone set bolts. Then you check and adjust and lubricate the
hinges, rollers, bearings, and GDO mechanism.
- If it's a two-spring system, the only additional initial step is to
unwind the unbroken spring before touching anything. Unwinding the old
spring is even easier than winding the new spring and is simply the
reverse operation of 30 quarter turns (7 1/2 full turns) for a 7 foot
tall door.

DANGER:
- I searched the news.google.com archives for gory stories of residential
homeowners being hurt or killed by winding garage door springs at home,
and, I just couldn't find much. This doesn't indicate much other than
it's not a big newsworthy topic I guess - but it's a datapoint.
- EVERY (and I mean every) site says it's dangerous - just as chain saws
and table saws and 220 volt motors and swimming pools are dangerous when
accidents happen - so I'll repeat what the sites say. It is dangerous.
- Winding torsion springs is dangerous because "something can go wrong",
and because "something can break".
- However, having said that, if you take normal precautions against both
of those possibilities, you too can (easily) wind a torsion spring.
- There are plenty of things NOT to do, by the way, when winding torsion
springs ... but the list of things to do are well spelled out at the DDM
Garage Door web site.
- Personally, at no point did I "feel" dire danger, especially after
having removed and reinstalled my torsion spring a half-dozen times. It
became 'almost' routine (therein lies the biggest danger, I suspect, to
garage door repairmen).
- The amount of force needed to wind a 0.250" 36" long torsion spring
with 18" steel bars is well within the strength of a normal man.

THEORY:
- The torsion spring acts like a counterweight to balance the
(appreciable) weight of the door.
- The GDO merely pushes the door open or closed - and in and of itself
does NOT open the door.
- The only lateral movement, assuming the cable drums are tightened
against the bearing end plates, as the door goes up and down is merely
the distance between the coils of the springs.
- Everything else should be locked down tightly (which was my problem).
- In general, the garage door repair company skimps on the springs, by
default, by giving you a 10,000 cycle spring.
- You can ask for longer cycle springs, which, if you keep to the same
inside diameter, are merely thicker gauge wire.
- The only thing that matters is the IPPT (inch pounds per turn) that you
need. Your garage door has a weight and a track & drum geometry that
determines the IPPT you need. Period.
- So, whatever new springs you put on must exert the same IPPT as the old
springs. Period.
- Most people want longer-lasting springs, so, all you need is either a
wider inside diameter spring with the same IPPT or a thicker gauge spring
with the same IPPT.
- In general, you likely won't opt for a wider ID so your choice is
merely a thicker gauge spring.
- Adding a second spring does NOT in any way improve your number of
cycles (only the spring geometry makes a difference in lifetime).
- Adding a second spring has some benefits - but they're relatively minor..
- Your limiting factor in improving lifetime will be how much room you
have as thicker-gauge springs with the same ID and IPPT will be longer
than the original.

DD-

Just because you've done one garage door (or seen one done) & read a
number of website sites does not make you expert enough to be writing
up descriptions for other novices to follow.

Your use of the subject terminology gives you away as someone merely
regurgitating / "parroting" (apologies to every parrot worldwide)
poorly understood information.

Your fix (metal "plate") was an amateurish hack.

Stop fixating on "ugly", learn to do appropriate investigative
demolition, drywall repair and how to take expert advice offered by
the a.h.r regulars.

How's your slope doin' ?
Goin' read some websites & post on slope stabilization next?

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 17:10:37 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:

Just because you've done one garage door (or seen one done) & read a
number of website sites does not make you expert enough to be writing up
descriptions for other novices to follow.

I never said (nor implied) I was an expert so I'm sadly confused about
your response.

In fact, I clearly & overtly said in the very first line that I had never
done it before; and in the text I said these were lessons learned from
removing and reinstalling the torsion spring a half dozen times.

So, I'm sorry if you were confused (apparently) because I also said I
read every DIY and howto and watched every video that I could find on the
net.

I meant you no harm - and I sincerely hope nobody else (erroneously)
thought I was an expert as I never represented myself as such.

[I should note I confirmed all my work with Dan Musick whom I've spoken
with only a half dozen times, yet whom I 'would' consider an expert.]

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:18:29 -0800, recyclebinned wrote:

Adding a second spring significantly reduces ...
the severity of the force with which the garage door comes down

Agreed!

That reduced-severity action actually works both ways.

1. When the door is going down (as you noted).
And,
2. When the door is coming up:
When a single broken spring, especially when it breaks near the
stationary cone, can cause the torsion bar to spin violently such that
there can be damage the top part of the door and to the cables.

In addition, two-spring systems balance the forces on the two cable
drums, which is important for systems (like mine) with weak cable drum
support to start with.

Two springs also enable the advantage that MORE SPRING SIZES (i.e.,
thicknesses) are instantly available to the homeowner, who then has more
options to choose springs of the desired life cycles.

A minor advantage of two-spring systems is that winding each one is half
the work of winding a single-spring system; but that's a one-time bonus.

Of course, two spring systems typically being longer (combined) than
single-spring systems have disadvantages too (e.g., they take up more
room so that you may have to move the spring anchor plate, they can cost
more, there are more things to break and replace, they can be heavier,
etc.).

All in all, very few professional installers told me by phone that they
would change out my single-spring system for a two-spring system, and,
Dan Musick advised me against it (even though his web site explains all
that I've said above).

Nonetheless, if you wish to convert from one spring to two, this handy
calculator tells you all that you need to know!
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/springs/st...s.php#database

For example, here is my current spring:
$51.56 36,000 cycles 0.250"x36" 14.14 pounds Lift=123.3# SPB-250-36-00R

If I converted that to two springs, Dan's site recommends:
$34.56 77,000 cycles 0.207"x28.5" 9.09 pounds Lift=61.9# SPB-207-28-50R
$34.56 77,000 cycles 0.207"x28.5" 9.09 pounds Lift=61.9# SPB-207-28-50L

So, the two-spring system would only cost about $15 more and would weigh
only about 4 pounds more, yet it would lift the same 123 pound door and
each spring would last more than twice as long as my single spring system.

I have no problems with your troubles and exploration of your door.
Those darn things can be daunting.
I have had to install them, many of them, and differing kinds.
Also repair many too, that were unsprung, or busted....
Good Luck,
no worries here.
john

"Danny D." wrote in message ...

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 17:10:37 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:

Just because you've done one garage door (or seen one done) & read a
number of website sites does not make you expert enough to be writing up
descriptions for other novices to follow.

I never said (nor implied) I was an expert so I'm sadly confused about
your response.

In fact, I clearly & overtly said in the very first line that I had never
done it before; and in the text I said these were lessons learned from
removing and reinstalling the torsion spring a half dozen times.

So, I'm sorry if you were confused (apparently) because I also said I
read every DIY and howto and watched every video that I could find on the
net.

I meant you no harm - and I sincerely hope nobody else (erroneously)
thought I was an expert as I never represented myself as such.

[I should note I confirmed all my work with Dan Musick whom I've spoken
with only a half dozen times, yet whom I 'would' consider an expert.]

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:31:02 -0800, jloomis wrote:

I have no problems with your troubles and exploration of your door.
Those darn things can be daunting.

Thanks for understanding.

I need help when I ask, and then, when I'm done, I've been on the net
long enough to know to give back to the group (hopefully in spades),
by paying it forward.

It was interesting though to read constantly about how dangerous it was,
yet to not find in the literature very many documented examples of how
exactly these people get hurt.

To be sure, I'm positive people get hurt every day (but most are likely
commercial accidents due to common mistakes the professionals make
when they're not careful doing something they do 10 times a day, every day).

For example, Dan Musick himself told me that he hurt his leg simply by
stepping off the ladder onto the old spring on the floor. I'm sure he
put old springs on the floor hundreds of times - but if you do that day
in and day out, one of those days you're gonna trip on that spring and
break your leg.

In addition, I'm sure that homeowners do some really really really dumb
things, e.g., Dan Musick says on his web site that one of his customers
unbolted the spring anchor plate without first untensioning the torsion
spring! That customer was lucky to get out of that one alive!

And not everyone survives their dumb mistakes.

For example, I read this 2004 OSHA Fatality Assessment of a NY maintenance
man who got killed in maintaining a commercial torsion spring.
http://health.ny.gov/environmental/i...cs/04ny135.pdf

However, if you read that report closely, you'll see MANY compound mistakes
piled up one upon another - with the result being his eventual death.

I even searched the bestgore web site expecting to find garage door
accidents galore - but alas - it was to no avail.

If you look at garage door accident statistics, there are 20K injuries
in American garages every year - but most of them appear to be to the
consumer and not to the repairman working on the garage door.
http://prlog.org/11649315-garage-doo...till-ugly.html
(Plus, the statistics are a PR stunt for a garage-door company.)

This garage door company mimics those dire statistics:
http://www.coveryourgaragedoortracks.com/statistics.htm

Another door company publishes vastly different "statistics":
http://nhdoors.com/2010/06/injury_statistics/
Here they say 10K people are hurt every year by having their fingers
pinched off in the door panels or having the whole door fall on them.

Perhaps more reliably, this scientific study of shows 85 children killed
or seriously injured since 1974 when garage door openers didn't reverse
on time (notice the numerical difference with the manufacturers' statistics):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8885959

And, perhaps most apropos, this study shows the percentage of DIY accidents:
http://www.garagedoorchildsafety.com/injury_report.html
Where DIY accidents were 1610 out of 13,325.

Personally, I suspect all (or almost all) the DIY accidents were from
people doing dumb things like using screwdrivers to wind the springs,
or using flimsy ladders, or unbolting the anchor bracket without
detorsioning the spring, or failing to disconnect the GDO before working
on the door and then someone pressed the button - or - even this - forgetting
to gently move the black widow spider from the web-strewn upper door area!
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11440621.jpg

YES! That's 'my' black widow spider. I found it while I was setting up a
safe and clean environment to work safely in on 'my' garage door repair!

On Dec 7, 5:52*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 17:10:37 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:
Just because you've done one garage door (or seen one done) & read a
number of website sites does not make you expert enough to be writing up
descriptions for other novices to follow.

I never said (nor implied) I was an expert so I'm sadly confused about
your response.

In fact, I clearly & overtly said in the very first line that I had never
done it before; and in the text I said these were lessons learned from
removing and reinstalling the torsion spring a half dozen times.

So, I'm sorry if you were confused (apparently) because I also said I
read every DIY and howto and watched every video that I could find on the
net.

I meant you no harm - and I sincerely hope nobody else (erroneously)
thought I was an expert as I never represented myself as such.

[I should note I confirmed all my work with Dan Musick whom I've spoken
with only a half dozen times, yet whom I 'would' consider an expert.]

DADD-

I'm sorry but you're too inexperienced to even identify & recognize an
expert.

Watching videos, listening to "experts" & reading websites .... none
of this makes you an expert or able to identify an expert

The fact that you butchered an oak tree to satisfy your desire for "a
view" speaks volumes about your personality.
Your BS behavior since then confirms it. The fact that you're
"confused" is only more evidence.

Repeating information w/o understanding it makes you no better than a
parrot.

On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:31:11 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

For most of you on a.h.r, these lessons will be old hat; but for those of
you (like I was) who have never relocated a torsion spring, these lessons
may come in handy in the future.


Thanks, Danny. Only thing I disagree with is one spring vs two.
Too many advantages make 2-spring well worth the extra little cost.
Couldn't find ANY advantage of single spring except that little cost.
Pure bean counter mentality is all I can guess.

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 01:38:45 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

Only thing I disagree with is one spring vs two.
Too many advantages make 2-spring well worth the extra little cost.

I corrected that assessment in a subsequent detailed response to
rightfully recyclebinned who also disagreed as you did.

The advantages of two torsion springs are (summarized):
1. When one spring breaks, the door goes down softer.
2. When one spring breaks, the door goes up softer too!
3. Balanced spring forces are gentler on the cable drum flags.
4. With each spring doing half the work, you have greater spring choices.
5. Winding two springs is only half the work per spring.

The disadvantages weren't listed, but some of them a
1. Two springs generally costs (slightly) more than one spring.
2. Two springs are generally (slightly) longer overall than one spring.
3. Two springs are generally (slightly) heavier than one spring.
4. Two springs are (slightly) more effort to install than one spring.
5. Converting from one spring to two spring has to be done correctly.

Let me know if I missed any pros and cons.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 07:49:37 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 01:38:45 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

Only thing I disagree with is one spring vs two.
Too many advantages make 2-spring well worth the extra little cost.

I corrected that assessment in a subsequent detailed response to
rightfully recyclebinned who also disagreed as you did.

The advantages of two torsion springs are (summarized):
1. When one spring breaks, the door goes down softer.
2. When one spring breaks, the door goes up softer too!

Probably better to say when a one spring door spring breaks, the door
comes down with full weight of the door, or if already down, it takes
major muscle power to get the door open.
The danger and effort is cut in half with a 2 spring.

3. Balanced spring forces are gentler on the cable drum flags.

Almost every piece of fastening hardware undergoes more strain with a
single spring - because of torsion shaft lateral movement.
Remember your spring anchor bracket flex.
I think the only force that would be equal with either setup would be
the rotational force pushing against the top of the spring anchor
bracket and attempting to pull the lag screws in the bottom of the
bracket from the header.
I have to look at mine and see if they used 2 spring anchor brackets
or 1. And whether the bolts connect the stationary cones together.
Walked the dogs.
It's one bracket, and the bolts go through both cones.
Two brackets back to back would be stronger, but maybe overkill.
And you'd need left and right bracket designs since there's 2 holes
for 2 lag screws on the bottom and one slot for a screw on top.
BTW, I think I said - and know I was thinking - that with a 2-spring
setup the springs counteract each other. That's wrong, except for in
the case of shaft lateral movement.
They apply or release torsion to the torsion shaft in whatever
direction the shaft rotates. Has to be that way (-:
Still don't understand how the springs can lengthen/shorten on a
2-spring when all 4 ends are locked down and the shaft can't move
laterally. I can live with that.

4. With each spring doing half the work, you have greater spring choices.
5. Winding two springs is only half the work per spring.

The disadvantages weren't listed, but some of them a
1. Two springs generally costs (slightly) more than one spring.
2. Two springs are generally (slightly) longer overall than one spring.
3. Two springs are generally (slightly) heavier than one spring.

I don't see 2 and 3 as "disadvantages." Springs and hardware are
contained within the length of the torsion shaft and nothing else
should be around that anyway. Weight doesn't matter unless you drive
your garage.

4. Two springs are (slightly) more effort to install than one spring.
5. Converting from one spring to two spring has to be done correctly.

Let me know if I missed any pros and cons.

In article
,
DD_BobK wrote:

How's your slope doin' ?
Goin' read some websites & post on slope stabilization next?

Danny, aka Donna, is a troll, DD. Most famous for her water heater
replacement episode a few years back. I believe that thread was more
than 900 posts by the time it was over. She replies to every single
reply, thereby keeping threads going as long as possible, fixating on
excruciating minutia, seething with disingenuous politeness, posts gobs
of pictures, and continues to ask more and more and more questions until
the last damn dog is exhausted with her. Then she writes up a pedantic
"treatise" on the subject, with her grandiose "for the next person who
wants to know" attitude.

It's all a sham and a scam, disguised as a "useful" thread, but her sole
purpose is to accumulate thread length and sucker people into an endless
dialogue, because she's an attention whore. Notice how she split the
torsion spring thing into a half-dozen or so different threads, to
garner even more attention.

And, that's why she nym-shifts, in an attempt to evade detection. But
she's easy to spot within a few posts, if you know what to look for. She
engages every single respondent with flattery and attention, unlike some
trolls who take a hostile tack.

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 06:39:08 -0800, Smitty Two wrote:

It's all a sham and a scam, disguised as a "useful" thread

Smitty,

I debated whether I should respond to you as your post was wholly
inaccurate and needless - and I decided - for better or for worse -
to only respond once, and only once, as the repair is finalized
and the final pay-it-forward summary has been submitted.

So heed my words.

I don't know whom you are talking about in some other thread but as for
the topic of the torsion spring repair, what you're actually objecting
to, surprisingly, is someone who asks on-topic questions, and who
responds to everyone politely, and who pays it forward.

In addition, you seem to be upset that the thread 'appears useful',
and that it covers 'minutia' such as pictures of the torsion spring
repair both before, during and after, and that the thread lasts
until the repair is finished - and then has a final update.

Apparently it hurts and upsets you most that a simple homeowner
garage door repair (which you've done yourself?) ended up being a
bit complicated, where it actually required a relocation of the
torsion spring anchor plate, addition of bearings, hinge replacement,
and, most importantly, a restructuring of the bearing supports themselves.

Apparently you like simple solutions - and - since this problem wasn't
a simple one - it appears to bother you immensely that it just wasn't
as easy as we'd all like it to have been.

Your thought processes perplexes me.

Maybe you don't like the fact that most posters ask the question only to
quickly disappear into the woodwork, with nary a picture nor any update,
nor any desire to pay it forward - and I didn't do that? Is that your
problem?

You clearly say I'm a troll, yet, let the actions speak for themselves.
Was there anything in the thread that wasn't a real issue?
Was there anything in the thread that wasn't backed up with details?
Did you even notice that I backed out when things got personal when
well-intentioned folks (e.g., Oren) and vitriolic ones (DD_BobK)
strongly suggested ripping out the wallboard?

And, did I split up separate topics as they should be?

Let my words and actions speak for themselves:
- The hinges did break and they did need to be replaced
- The torsion spring did break and it did need to be replaced
- The torsion spring was minus a bearing and it did need one added
- The spring end plate was improperly installed & it did need fixing
- The spring end plate did bend - and that was the hardest to rectify
- The cause of the bending was traced to the bearing end plate moving
- The cause of the end plate moving was traced to the lack of support
- The lack of support was solved with the use of metal plate
- This use of metal plate proved to be controversial (not my doing)
- The controversy revolved around the suggestion to remove the wallboard
- Every question was answered accurately & honestly & with photos
- Many of the photos were annotated specifically to answer the questions
- A final summary was given - and if people responded - I answered them.

But, there was more to your tirade, wasn't there?

You also seem to be upset that I strive for anonymity on the net, and,
you seem to equate me with someone you've met in the past, which I find
surprising since I've submitted probably ten to twenty thousand posts on
the net in the past two decades - some of which were with you and in
those you responded quite normally. (Offhand, I must thank Oren &
Trader4, & Ed Pawlowski, & DerbyDad03, & SMS, Jim Elbrecht, and
uncountable others for their thousands of helpful conversations.
Together, 'we' are the USENET, or what survives of it anyway, and
we, many of whom are over 60 years old, have been through it all.)

It surprises me that you pick, out of the thousands of my threads,
one that is particularly complicated - to then label me a 'troll'.

In summary, you are dead wrong, and sadly paranoid. Yet, I can not fix
you - so all I strive to be is a good person, and I pay it forward.
As they say, I will fight to the death for your right to say what you
think and feel. God Bless You - but - please - stay on topic.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 16:29:00 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Did you even notice that I backed out when things got personal when
well-intentioned folks (e.g., Oren) and vitriolic ones (DD_BobK)
strongly suggested ripping out the wallboard?

Suggesting you remove the wallboard was not "personal". You could have
saved a lot of time and aggravation by removing all the drywall or
just in the places you needed to place vertical mounting supports for
the spring bracket and the end drums. You said you found wood in some
places and later stated it was not there. It's hard to help you when
we don't know what was behind it. Sheetrock is relatively cheap and
easy to nail up there after repairs to the door. Just a few tools are
needed.

When that suggestion came up you went silent. It would have been easy
to plainly say; "I'm not going to do that". Without removing the
drywall, it complicated the matter in my opinion.

For the record, I've never replaced a spring or worked on a garage
door myself. I have seen plenty installed by professionals and watched
them intently. Following the threads here, I learned some things.

Perhaps you were being overly sensitive. If you are happy with your
final results then nothing else matters. As my friend often says: "it
looks good from my house." Personally, I would have not done it the
way you did, but that is water under the bridge.

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:26:49 -0800, Oren wrote:
You could have saved a lot of time and aggravation
by removing all the drywall

I agree that I had two choices, namely:
a) Follow Dan's advice to shore up the end bearing flags externally, or,
b) Follow your advice to restructure the garage (i.e., add cripple studs).

For better or worse, I had opted to follow Dan Musick's advice to simply
shore up the bearing end plates with the steel angles he sent plus about
$15 in additional steel sheeting and Simpson "L" shaped support.

I'm sorry if that decision to follow DDM's approach caused controversy.

I had two perfectly viable options (but only needed to pick one):
a) Shore it up externally
b) Shore it up internally

Since they were mutually exclusive, I couldn't really do right by all.
Most of you say I did the wrong thing (and you may very well be right).
But, I told you why. I told you what. And I showed pictures of it all.

When I informed the group of that decision, I was shocked at the
seemingly unwarranted and totally OT vitriol from some, so I simply
let it drop as I had explained myself quite a few times already.

I did try to answer when the vitriol started flying (not from you),
for exampnle, about the plywood & my apparently erroneous use of the
descriptive term: "steel angle iron". But then wholly OT vitriol
resulted, and at that point I had realized it wasn't about the
plywood or steel sheets. It was about something else, and, it wasn't
even about me. It was a problem that they seem to have had with some
woman they've met in the past.

Come to think of it, I guess, that just might explain the vitriol!

You said you found wood in some places and later stated it was not there.
It's hard to help you when we don't know what was behind it.

This is very true. You'll even notice that I've marked the wall where I
thought wood was, only to find that it was insubstantial.

You'll also notice that I moved the spring end plate to the left (as
you and I had agreed) 18 inches only to find that what I thought was
solid wood was only a thin piece of wood on a solid steel beam!

You'll then notice that I moved the spring end plate the 12 inches to
the right (as we had discussed), only to find that the 'wood' there
was again, insubstantial (the lag bolts went right through it).

I might not have mentioned it, but even the lower 3-inch lag bolts for
the tracks barely went into substantial wood.

Only after all that did I realize what the original garage installers
knew all along. There was no substantial wood anywhere above that
garage door, and along its sides. Only after all that (and dozens of
nail holes) did I realize that the garage is solely supported by the
concrete block and then steel beams.

Of course, had I ripped out all the sheetrock, I could have come to
the same conclusion (perhaps in less time). But, you must remember,
the goal was to (properly) replace the broken torsion spring.

As Dan Musick said, it was a difficult repair for anyone.

When that suggestion came up you went silent. It would have been easy
to plainly say; "I'm not going to do that". Without removing the
drywall, it complicated the matter in my opinion.

I'm sorry about that. I thought I had made it clear I was following
the advice of Dan Musick to shore up the bearing end plate flags.

IIRC, at the same time as your helpful suggestion, DD_BobK kept throwing
in OT vitriol that had absolutely nothing to do with this repair - and -
since I had already stated I had no plans to remove the sheetrock, there
was nothing more to say (other than to respond politely to DD_BobK and
then being shocked by more totally OT vitriol being heaped back).

I just backed off as I had no desire to argue. I apologize.

Following the threads here, I learned some things.

Thank you for saying that. I learned a lot too.

First, and foremost:
I learned that the dangerous springs are easy to remove & install.
I also learned that buying springs nowadays is trivially easy.
I also learned that up-sizing & doubling springs is trivially easy,
with the calculators on Dan Musick's web site.
Yet, I learned the actual math is imposing (as per Richard Kinch).
I learned that Dan Musick is the guy to go to for the springs and for
the winding bars and ancillary parts (hinges, rollers, plates, etc.).

It was especially interesting to learn that the tracks pitch backward
while the hinges graduate forward, such that the door is straight in
the final position. Also it was nice to check the overhead tracks to
see that they were absolutely level (to a tenth of a degree on my
digital level).

It was super surprising how easily the tracks went back up (admittedly,
I was just putting them back into the same holes) - but I was surprised
how easy it was to level them given how much I had feared taking them
apart in the first place.

It was great to learn what to lubricate and what not to lube.
(My mistake was to lube the tracks, which I rectified later on.)

Even putting the cables onto the drums, for the first time, was a learning
experience, as I had prior worried that it might be difficult to string
them both at the same time. But Dan Musick's suggested vise grip worked
wonders for tensioning the torsion rod.

It was interesting to note that I was easily able to adjust the
tension by backing off on the number of quarter turns (my door needs
only 29 quarter turns, whereas a typical 7' tall door needs 30).

And, it was rewarding to adjust the initial tilt of the garage door
by slipping the cable drum.

It was a learning experience when I tried to lift the door without the
spring and then subsequently erroneously arrived at the wrong weight
(because I used a digital scale).

In summary, having never understood garage door geometry and operation,
and, having feared torsion spring replacements in the past, I'm very
glad I did upgrade and replace my broken torsion spring. It's unfortunate
that the bearing end plate flags where unsupported - and that the
spring anchor plate was unsupported - and that there was no bearing.

Had those three issues not arisen, this would have been a very simple
and straightforward torsion spring repair.

If you are happy with your final results then nothing else matters.

Thank you.

It made me feel good that Dan Musick said that the repair will outlast
me, when I mailed him the same pictures that I had provided on a.h.r.

Since I could have left the spring anchor plate without a bearing and
bending as it was, it makes me feel especially good that the spring
anchor plate and torsion rod are now well supported - and that the
bearing end plate flags no longer allow the drums substantial movement.

I have learned; others have learned - and we leave that to posterity.

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 05:10:09 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
2. When one spring breaks, the door goes up softer too!
The danger and effort is cut in half with a 2 spring.

I totally agree that your two points above are 100% correct.

When 1-of-2 torsion springs break:
1. The door going down is (much) safer!
2. Lifting the door up is (much) easier!

But, there's another not-so-obvious advantage of having two springs
on a double-car door when spring breaks while the door is moving up.
3. When one spring breaks, the door goes up softer too!

It's difficult to explain, so allow me simply quote Dan Musick himself:
How to Convert from One Garage Door Spring to Two
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...conversion.php

[ verbatim ]
Other problems frequently ensue when a single spring is used on a double-car
garage door. Many manufacturers have cut costs by using a single spring on a
double-wide 16' steel garage door. If the spring breaks near the stationary
cone, a large portion of the spring spins loose with the winding cone secured
to the shaft. This causes a strong force to pull on the cables, often leading
to one or two broken cables. If the opener up force is set too strong, it is
more likely to wreck the top section if not the whole door. A second spring
helps to keep the tension when the first spring breaks, resulting in fewer
broken cables and less damage to the garage door itself.
[ / verbatim ]

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:26:49 -0800, Oren wrote:

I have seen plenty installed by professionals and watched
them intently. Following the threads here, I learned some things.

I forgot to mention that I also learned that the torsion bar is
NOT supposed to move sideways when the door opens and closes
(allowing for the tiny bit of unavoidable slop at each side's
cable-drum-to-end-bearing interface).

What Dan Musick told me by phone was the only sideways 'movement'
is in the spacing between the coils. This wasn't intuitive to me
because I personally twisted that spring 7 times and watched it
grow almost two inches in the process (i.e., 7 quarter-inch coils).

I kept wondering where that two inches went when the spring
untwisted on the way down! It turns out that two inches is hidden
between the coils!

It's intuitive once you know it - but not until you do it!

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:26:49 -0800, Oren wrote:

Following the threads here, I learned some things.

Since this is a lessons-learned thread, another not-so-obvious result
is to understand the differences when a torsion spring breaks nearer
to one end than to the other in a single torsion spring system.

Until I read Dan Musick's web site, I hadn't realized that the part
that spins violently is the winding cone end because that's the end
bolted to the torsion rod itself.

The other end just spins inside its bearing.

So, the implication is different if the spring breaks nearer to one
end than to the other. If the single torsion spring breaks nearer to
the winding cone, the violent spin on the torsion rod is apparently
much LESS than if that same spring breaks nearer to the stationary cone.

This, of course, has implications if the door was moving upward at the
same time. This particular detail, to my knowledge, has never been
discussed on a.h.r, and therefore I add it as an additional lesson
learned.

Danny D:

Personally, I would disagree with the advice to remove the pulley at one end of the torsion rod and slide the spring off that end. It's been years since I did my sister's garage door, but:

A) it seems to me that there must be something supporting the ends of the torsion rods where the pulleys are, and that "thing" may prevent the removal of the spring.

B) In my sister's case, she only had about a foot of space between the end of her torsion rod and the side wall of her garage. So, there really wasn't enough space to slide the new spring onto the rod easily.

C) My sister has a double garage, and her GDO uses two torsion springs. If I recall correctly, I was told that if one torsion spring breaks, it's best to replace both because the other won't be too far behind. And, if a person is going to be replacing both springs, it's not much extra work to hire a couple of teenagers to lift the whole assembly off the garage wall, replace both springs when the assembly is on the ground, and then put the whole assembly back up again.

It's been years since I did my sister's GDO, so I may be wrong on some points I'm making here.

Every web site you read about working with torsion spring GDO's will tell you it's dangerous, and that's mostly because of the possiblity of the winding bar slipping out of your grip and swinging around to smack you in the face or head. But, if someone has never done this kind of work, they don't know how much force will be in that winding bar, and therefore how dangerous what they're attempting to do is. And, that lack of certainty is fertile ground for the imagination to run wild with all kinds of tragic scenarios. When Y2K was upon is, because no one was certain there wouldn't be a problem, people were hunkered down in their own make shift bomb shelters with a month's supply of food and fresh water. Lack of certainty makes EVERY possible outcome a possibility.

Danny D:

Personally, I would disagree with the advice to remove the pulley at one end of the torsion rod and slide the old spring off and the new spring on at that end. It's been years since I did my sister's garage door, but:

A) it seems to me that there must be something supporting the ends of the torsion rods where the pulleys are, and that support may prevent the removal of the spring. I just don't remember what supported the ends of the torsion rod in my sister's garage, but I expect it was a factor in my deciding to remove the entire assembly.

B) In my sister's case, she only had about a foot of space between the end of her torsion rod and the side wall of her garage, and that was true for both ends of the GDO assembly. So, there really wasn't enough space to slide the new spring onto the rod easily. I do recall that being one of the reasons I decided to remove the whole assembly.

C) My sister has a double garage, and her GDO uses two torsion springs. If I recall correctly, I was told that if one torsion spring breaks, it's best to replace both because the other won't be too far behind. And, if a person is going to be replacing both springs, it's not much extra work to hire a couple of teenagers off the street for $5 each to lift the whole assembly off the garage wall and placing it back in place so it can be attached. Once the assembly is down and supported on saw horses, or whatever, it's easy to work on.

It's been years since I did my sister's GDO, so I may be wrong on some points I'm making here.

Every web site that deals with replacing broken GDO torsion springs will tell you it's dangerous, and that's mostly because of the possiblity of the winding bar slipping out of your grip and swinging around to smack you in the face or head. But, if someone has never done this kind of work, they don't know how much force will be in that winding bar, and therefore how dangerous what they're attempting to do is. And, that uncertainty is fertile ground for the imagination to run wild with the most extreme scenarios. When Y2K was upon us a little better than a dozen years ago, people were hunkered down in their own make shift bomb shelters with their family, a month's supply of food and a shot gun! Uncertainty makes EVERY scenario a possibility that one needs to be prepared for.

On Dec 8, 6:39*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*DD_BobK wrote:
How's your slope doin' ?
Goin' read some websites & post on slope stabilization next?

Danny, aka Donna, is a troll, DD. Most famous for her water heater
replacement episode a few years back. I believe that thread was more
than 900 posts by the time it was over. She replies to every single
reply, thereby keeping threads going as long as possible, fixating on
excruciating minutia, seething with disingenuous politeness, posts gobs
of pictures, and continues to ask more and more and more questions until
the last damn dog is exhausted with her. Then she writes up a pedantic
"treatise" on the subject, with her grandiose "for the next person who
wants to know" attitude.

It's all a sham and a scam, disguised as a "useful" thread, but her sole
purpose is to accumulate thread length and sucker people into an endless
dialogue, because she's an attention whore. Notice how she split the
torsion spring thing into a half-dozen or so different threads, to
garner even more attention.

And, that's why she nym-shifts, in an attempt to evade detection. But
she's easy to spot within a few posts, if you know what to look for. She
engages every single respondent with flattery and attention, unlike some
trolls who take a hostile tack.

Smitty Two-

I have to disagree with your assessment that DADD is a troll.

Yeah, he seems like a troll but I believe his stupidity is just
simulating troll behavior.
imo, unfortunately he's real, just real dumb that's all.

cheers
Bob

On Dec 8, 12:06*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:26:49 -0800, Oren wrote:
You could have saved a lot of time and aggravation
by removing all the drywall

I agree that I had two choices, namely:
a) Follow Dan's advice to shore up the end bearing flags externally, or,
b) Follow your advice to restructure the garage (i.e., add cripple studs)..

For better or worse, I had opted to follow Dan Musick's advice to simply
shore up the bearing end plates with the steel angles he sent plus about
$15 in additional steel sheeting and Simpson "L" shaped support.

Most of DADD's drivel snipped


I have learned; others have learned - and we leave that to posterity.

Hey DADD-

How much did you pay Dan for picking his brain?
He is in garage door business.

Probably nothing...typical mooch

How thick was the plate?
Oh, that's right... I hurt your feelings so I don't get answer.

I await your treatise on slope stabilization after you pick the brains
of some grading contractors & civil engineers...for free of course.

No, Danny, in a torsion spring garage door opener, the winding cone end of the torsion spring is fastened to the torsion rod, and the other end is fixed. That is, it's bolted down so that it can't turn.

If the other end of the torsion spring could turn, you'd never wind up that torsion spring, and it would never be able to provide any assistance in opening the garage door.

It's the winding up of the torsion spring as the door closes that provides the assistance in opening the next time the garage door is opened. If the other end of the torsion spring could spin at will, it would unwind and there'd be no stored energy in the spring to help raise the garage door the next time it is opened.

So, the winding bar end of the torsion spring is attached to the torsion rod and turns with the torsion rod, and the other end is "nailed down" so it can't move.

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:01:00 +0000, nestork wrote:

B) In my sister's case, she only had about a foot of space between the
end of her torsion rod and the side wall of her garage. So, there
really wasn't enough space to slide the new spring onto the rod easily.

Thanks. This is a good 'lesson learned' from having done it yourself!

It's common to have little space at the sides so many DIYs show how to
bend the spring in an "L" shape to get it back on the torsion rod.

Also, some spring anchor plates (like mine) have a "U" shaped opening,
which allows more freedom of movement of the torsion rod outward.

In addition, once both cable drums are loosened, you can slide the torsion
bar laterally as long as you need to get the spring off (if you have room
on the 'other' side of the garage).

In my case, I simply removed on cable drum and took down the entire
torsion rod.

But, there's just no way you're gonna get the torsion spring off that
torsion bar, in any case, without removing at least one cable drum.

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:01:00 +0000, nestork wrote:

C) My sister has a double garage, and her GDO uses two torsion springs.
If I recall correctly, I was told that if one torsion spring breaks,
it's best to replace both because the other won't be too far behind.

I agree. That's the advice from every single web site & installer, although
almost all will also say that if the second spring is less than a few years
old, then they'd leave it be.

The main reason to replace both if the first spring broke at the end of
it's useful life is that the second one is gonna break soon so you may
as well save the additional service call.

Of course, if you do it yourself, you 'might' save some money just replacing
springs as they break - but - personally - I'd use a broken spring as a
golden opportunity to upgrade both springs anyway.

And, if a person is going to be replacing both springs, it's not much
extra work to hire a couple of teenagers to lift the whole assembly off
the garage wall, replace both springs when the assembly is on the
ground, and then put the whole assembly back up again.

Hmmmmmm.... I hope you first unwind both old springs BEFORE removing the
assembly from the door; and I hope you replace the assembly before
winding the new springs.

If you don't ... very very very very bad things are going to happen.

Once you unwind the springs, removing the assembly doesn't require the
neighbors' kids. Since I was relocating my anchor plate, I had to remove
mine and it was trivial to take down from the doorway. Mine was only one
torsion spring, but two springs would only have been four pounds heavier,
as we've already ascertained separately in this thread).

Springs are only roughly 10 pounds each.
The torsion bar is simply a 9' hollow steel 1" tube.
The cable drums are cast aluminum.

The whole thing doesn't weigh much at all - so I'm not sure why the need
for the extra kids. Nothing wrong with having help (I wish my kids would
help me sometimes), but an average guy can easily handle the removal
himself.

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:01:00 +0000, nestork wrote:

Every web site you read about working with torsion spring GDO's will
tell you it's dangerous, and that's mostly because of the possiblity of
the winding bar slipping out of your grip and swinging around to smack
you in the face or head.

Every chain saw manual tells you it's dangerous, just as every pool owner
knows a pool is dangerous. Every day you ride your motorcycle, you face
danger. And every time you mow the lawn, you face life-threatening injuries.

Winding and unwinding garage door torsion springs 'is' dangerous.

On the Richard Kinch site, there is a calculation where the end result is
that the force, if something goes wrong, is such that the winding bars
will be thrown at greater than the speed of a bullet. An 18 inch long bullet
is definitely not something you would want your body to be in the path of.

In addition, having the torsion bar suddenly spin up to 7 or 8 revolutions
could cause the door to suddenly do strange things, which could startle
someone and cause them to topple off the ladder.

However, given the rather minimal forces it took me to wind my quarter-inch
thick torsion spring, I would think it unlikely that a winding bar would
casually slip out of your grip. It could slip out of your grip, but, I would
think it perhaps more likely that THE WRONG SIZE winding bar could (easily)
slip out of the winding cone. Or that the right size winding bar which is
not placed fully into the winding cone could slip out of the winding cone.

Those would be dangerous mistakes that Dan Musick's DIY warns against.
- He says, NEVER NEVER NEVER use a screwdriver, for example!
- He shows how to tape the winding bars, to see when they go in all the way.
- He explains how to measure 'swing', which is the fit tolerance of the bars.
- He warns to keep your head and body out of the kill zone.
- He warns against the use of flimsy ladders and of untidy work environments.
- He warns against unbolting the stationary cone before unwinding springs.
- He warns to disable the GDO so that nobody opens it from the outside while
you're working on it.
etc.

I suspect many (perhaps even most?) of the accidents are due to people NOT
following those simple safety procedures ... which are all fully within
the users' control.

There are things OUTSIDE the users' control that can go wrong.

For example, there is the remote possibility of the winding cone breaking,
or of the spring breaking. Or of an earthquake happening just as you start
to unwind the spring. Or of a black widow spider biting you as you wind away.

These are simply risks you have to live with.

But, if someone has never done this kind of
work, they don't know how much force will be in that winding bar, and
therefore how dangerous what they're attempting to do is.

As Richard Kinch said, it's no more dangerous than a whole bunch of other
dangerous things we men do all the time.

And, that lack of certainty is fertile ground for the imagination to
run wild with all kinds of tragic scenarios.

I agree that I was very surprised how uneventful and unfrightening the
entire operation was. Unwinding is clearly less stressful than winding;
but even winding is on the stress level of, say, climbing a tall ladder.

The forces, while formidable if let loose, are easily that which any
adult male would have no problem whatsoever with (at least for the
0.250"x36"x2"ID spring that I wound and unwound a half dozen times).

At the beginning, my biggest fear was that I would forget a step; but,
I had mulled the entire sequence over in my mind many times before I
ever took wrench to bolt - so it was actually anti-climactic when I first
wound and unwound my spring.

Even so, I was doubting myself, thinking "this is so very much easier
than everyone made it out to be ... maybe I'm doing something wrong".

On Dec 9, 2:41*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:01:00 +0000, nestork wrote:
Every web site you read about working with torsion spring GDO's will
tell you it's dangerous, and that's mostly because of the possiblity of
the winding bar slipping out of your grip and swinging around to smack
you in the face or head.

Every chain saw manual tells you it's dangerous, just as every pool owner
knows a pool is dangerous. Every day you ride your motorcycle, you face
danger. And every time you mow the lawn, you face life-threatening injuries.

Winding and unwinding garage door torsion springs 'is' dangerous.

On the Richard Kinch site, there is a calculation where the end result is
that the force, if something goes wrong, is such that the winding bars
will be thrown at greater than the speed of a bullet. An 18 inch long bullet
is definitely not something you would want your body to be in the path of..

In addition, having the torsion bar suddenly spin up to 7 or 8 revolutions
could cause the door to suddenly do strange things, which could startle
someone and cause them to topple off the ladder.

However, given the rather minimal forces it took me to wind my quarter-inch
thick torsion spring, I would think it unlikely that a winding bar would
casually slip out of your grip. It could slip out of your grip, but, I would
think it perhaps more likely that THE WRONG SIZE winding bar could (easily)
slip out of the winding cone. Or that the right size winding bar which is
not placed fully into the winding cone could slip out of the winding cone..

Those would be dangerous mistakes that Dan Musick's DIY warns against.
- He says, NEVER NEVER NEVER use a screwdriver, for example!
- He shows how to tape the winding bars, to see when they go in all the way.
- He explains how to measure 'swing', which is the fit tolerance of the bars.
- He warns to keep your head and body out of the kill zone.
- He warns against the use of flimsy ladders and of untidy work environments.
- He warns against unbolting the stationary cone before unwinding springs..
- He warns to disable the GDO so that nobody opens it from the outside while
you're working on it.
etc.

I suspect many (perhaps even most?) of the accidents are due to people NOT
following those simple safety procedures ... which are all fully within
the users' control.

There are things OUTSIDE the users' control that can go wrong.

For example, there is the remote possibility of the winding cone breaking,
or of the spring breaking. Or of an earthquake happening just as you start
to unwind the spring. Or of a black widow spider biting you as you wind away.

These are simply risks you have to live with.

But, if someone has never done this kind of
work, they don't know how much force will be in that winding bar, and
therefore how dangerous what they're attempting to do is.

As Richard Kinch said, it's no more dangerous than a whole bunch of other
dangerous things we men do all the time.

And, that lack of certainty is fertile ground for the imagination to
run wild with all kinds of tragic scenarios.

I agree that I was very surprised how uneventful and unfrightening the
entire operation was. Unwinding is clearly less stressful than winding;
but even winding is on the stress level of, say, climbing a tall ladder.

The forces, while formidable if let loose, are easily that which any
adult male would have no problem whatsoever with (at least for the
0.250"x36"x2"ID spring that I wound and unwound a half dozen times).

At the beginning, my biggest fear was that I would forget a step; but,
I had mulled the entire sequence over in my mind many times before I
ever took wrench to bolt - so it was actually anti-climactic when I first
wound and unwound my spring.

Even so, I was doubting myself, thinking "this is so very much easier
than everyone made it out to be ... maybe I'm doing something wrong".

Yeah, when something that might be difficult turns out to be very
simple, you are left with a feeling that maybe you are doing something
wrong. Two days ago, I helped a neighbor replace his old curb-side
mailbox post. Snow plow broke it last winter, and it was being held
up by two boards, one on either side of the post.

We drilled a horizontal hole 1" diameter thru the conglomeration a few
inches above the ground and put a 3/4" 3-foot long bar thru the
hole. We used a couple of 8-foot long 2x4's, one on each side of the
post, under the horizontal bar to pry the post upward. After 2"
upward movement, the entire post could be lifted by one person. New
post was same 4x4 dimension. It dropped down into the hole and
concrete that appeared to be at the bottom and fit like a glove. Not
more than 10 minutes from start to finish including mounting a new
mailbox on the post. Both of us said we were amazed that things went
so smoothly, we had mentally allowed at least an hour for the project.

Now we have to see how well it holds upg.

The only 'special' tools needed are two 18" long 1/2 inch diameter steel
winding bars (for most residential springs) - but - I did see this fancy
torsion spring winding tool which, I guess, if you installed springs all
day every day, could make your life a little bit easier & more efficient:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXDhpdC0q4

Danny D. wrote:

For most of you on a.h.r, these lessons will be old hat; but for those of
you (like I was) who have never relocated a torsion spring, these lessons
may come in handy in the future.

WHAT DO MOST GARAGE DOOR COMPANIES DO:
- Most charge around $150 to $200 and will do a great job.
- Most promise same day and next-day service.
- I could do the entire job in an hour - so I'm sure they can too.
- Most will simply replace the old spring with the same size new spring.
- Some will 'upgrade' the spring to a longer-life spring (others won't).
- Some may charge for that longer-life upgrade; others won't.
- Most will adjust and lubricate the door and GDO as a bonus to you.
- Some may try to sell you useless extras, such as galvanized springs or
warranties (the 800 numbers I called were the worst offenders).

MAINTENANCE:
- Snap a picture today of your torsion spring setup (I wish I had this).
- Lubricate the garage door rollers, hinges, GDO mechanism, and torsion
bar bearings (two to three of those bearings may be installed).
- Check that the door is parallel when raised and vertical when lowered.
- Operate the door by hand to check spring balance at multiple positions.
- Close the door and check for tilt by looking for light at the bottom.

RESEARCH:
- I've watched EVERY torsion spring DIY on YouTube and none beat DDM
Garage Doors - so all you need is the ddmgaragedoors.com web site.
- The Richard Kinch truetex web site is the second site you'll need.
- No other web sites are needed although I've read EVERY alt.home.repair
thread that mentions garage doors that I can find in the groups.google.com
archive and while there is 'some' really good information on a.h.r - most
of the threads also contain contradictory garbage, and therefore you must
take every thread with a grain of salt.

REPLACEMENT:
- Replacing a torsion spring is easy and requires basic tools.
- The only special tool are two 18" long 1/2" diameter winding bars.
- A few open end wrenches and a large vise grip is all else you'll need.
- Basically, to remove a single broken torsion spring you climb on your
stepladder, unbolt the two set bolts on the winding cone and remove the
two nuts on the spring end plate side. After marking the location of the
cable drums on the torsion rod, you loosen the set bolts on both cable
drums, and then you simply slide the broken torsion spring off the
torsion rod, leaving the torsion rod at the top of the door and only
removing the one cable drum on the side away from the spring anchor plate.
- Basically, to replace the torsion spring, you side the spring onto the
torsion rod, add a bearing if desired, line up the cable drum prior marks
and tighten the cable drums snug against the bearing end plates and
insert the cables holding them in place with a vice grip tensioning the
tension bar and then proceed to wind the spring. When wound the
prescribed 30 quarter turns (7 1/2 full turns for a 7 foot tall door),
you push out the spring about a quarter inch, and then tighten the
winding cone set bolts. Then you check and adjust and lubricate the
hinges, rollers, bearings, and GDO mechanism.
- If it's a two-spring system, the only additional initial step is to
unwind the unbroken spring before touching anything. Unwinding the old
spring is even easier than winding the new spring and is simply the
reverse operation of 30 quarter turns (7 1/2 full turns) for a 7 foot
tall door.

DANGER:
- I searched the news.google.com archives for gory stories of residential
homeowners being hurt or killed by winding garage door springs at home,
and, I just couldn't find much. This doesn't indicate much other than
it's not a big newsworthy topic I guess - but it's a datapoint.
- EVERY (and I mean every) site says it's dangerous - just as chain saws
and table saws and 220 volt motors and swimming pools are dangerous when
accidents happen - so I'll repeat what the sites say. It is dangerous.
- Winding torsion springs is dangerous because "something can go wrong",
and because "something can break".
- However, having said that, if you take normal precautions against both
of those possibilities, you too can (easily) wind a torsion spring.
- There are plenty of things NOT to do, by the way, when winding torsion
springs ... but the list of things to do are well spelled out at the DDM
Garage Door web site.
- Personally, at no point did I "feel" dire danger, especially after
having removed and reinstalled my torsion spring a half-dozen times. It
became 'almost' routine (therein lies the biggest danger, I suspect, to
garage door repairmen).
- The amount of force needed to wind a 0.250" 36" long torsion spring
with 18" steel bars is well within the strength of a normal man.

THEORY:
- The torsion spring acts like a counterweight to balance the
(appreciable) weight of the door.
- The GDO merely pushes the door open or closed - and in and of itself
does NOT open the door.
- The only lateral movement, assuming the cable drums are tightened
against the bearing end plates, as the door goes up and down is merely
the distance between the coils of the springs.
- Everything else should be locked down tightly (which was my problem).
- In general, the garage door repair company skimps on the springs, by
default, by giving you a 10,000 cycle spring.
- You can ask for longer cycle springs, which, if you keep to the same
inside diameter, are merely thicker gauge wire.
- The only thing that matters is the IPPT (inch pounds per turn) that you
need. Your garage door has a weight and a track & drum geometry that
determines the IPPT you need. Period.
- So, whatever new springs you put on must exert the same IPPT as the old
springs. Period.
- Most people want longer-lasting springs, so, all you need is either a
wider inside diameter spring with the same IPPT or a thicker gauge spring
with the same IPPT.
- In general, you likely won't opt for a wider ID so your choice is
merely a thicker gauge spring.
- Adding a second spring does NOT in any way improve your number of
cycles (only the spring geometry makes a difference in lifetime).
- Adding a second spring has some benefits - but they're relatively minor.
- Your limiting factor in improving lifetime will be how much room you
have as thicker-gauge springs with the same ID and IPPT will be longer
than the original.


Well Danny D. I've been following your door saga since day one. I must
say you are the first person here to actually go out of their way to
learn every aspect of the door and spring operation! When you first
started posting and running into trouble I thought, "oh man, he's in a
world of hurt now". You are a trooper though. You kept asking
questions, you found the proper resources, and you never gave up!

I'm proud of you. At first I didn't know if you were going to make it
and have to call out a pro to fix your errors. You kept digging for
more and more information and now you've basically become a pro
yourself. Now that you know the geometry and what each moving part
does, installing a new door from scratch won't be a problem for you. You
already know the "hard part", that is bewildering to most DIY'ers.

Congratulations, I'm sure you feel a great sense of accomplishment - as
you should!

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 09:05:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

you are the first person here to actually go out of their way to
learn every aspect of the door and spring operation!

Thanks for noticing. You were the first to respond to my query, and
you were the one who noticed that I had placed the rollers in the wrong
slots for my other door. You also advised me when that second door was
sticking in the tracks (ironically, that was resolved by moving the
rollers!).

I took (almost) all your advice, e.g., to make sure the winding bars
were seated well. And you explained why nobody works on the garage door
when it's open, and your humorous color-code mnemonic was a good one,
and you helped me understand those fancy spring-winding tools weren't
needed.

I tried your relag suggestion; but it failed due to the lack of
substantial
wood below the anchor plate (which you and I were both unaware of).

You even were the first one (IIRC) that pointed me to the DDM Doors web
site - which - after having read every single page - I would say is
clearly
the best on the net!

About the only suggestion I didn't take of yours was when you explained
how you manage to unwind your torsion springs all at once! (Whew!)

I try to be responsive and to post pictures, and
to pay it forward. While not everyone appreciated the effort, many have
helped me on this endeavor and for that help I am indeed very grateful.

You and they make the USENET a fantastic resource for all of us.

BTW, even though Dan Musick's videos are all anyone would need,
this 2-part real-time series from a young homeowner is pretty good:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dio-hYjXNzg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR4VA...ture=fvwp&NR=1

Another decent video that hasn't yet been mentioned is this one
which shows in a humorous way how to lubricate your garage door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1lUm7koF2A

One of the best benefits of homeowner DIY is that you know the
right spring combination was put on the door. This short video
from the same company above shows how to do a balance test, and
it even shows what happens to the opener gear when a repairman
puts the wrong spring on (because that's what he had on the truck).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=xI3yfyb6tc0&list=UUpNHXeWQMBHIIA6uqJ8bOlA&index= 3

BTW, about the only GD company that says it's safe to do is this one:
(They equate the task with changing a tire & they sell you the guides.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O92zPJxfdxY

But there is always more to learn.

For example, an enigma I haven't found the answer to on the net yet
is why the OLD broken spring still shows latent winding spirals ...
as if it's still wound up?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

That paint on the old broken spring used to be a straight line; so
why does the old spring still show 7 spirals as if it's still wound?

Also notice the winding spirals are in the opposite direction from
the original.
Why would that be?

Danny D. wrote:

About the only suggestion I didn't take of yours was when you explained
how you manage to unwind your torsion springs all at once! (Whew!)

Lol.. Yeah, those are only for springs that will never be used again.

Danny D. wrote:

For example, an enigma I haven't found the answer to on the net yet
is why the OLD broken spring still shows latent winding spirals ...
as if it's still wound up?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

That paint on the old broken spring used to be a straight line; so
why does the old spring still show 7 spirals as if it's still wound?

Also notice the winding spirals are in the opposite direction from
the original.
Why would that be?


Because when the spring is compressed, it's not exposed to the elements.
When you wind the spring it shortens in length by a few inches, then you
tighten it. When unwound, that extra length is visible.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:20:38 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

That paint on the old broken spring used to be a straight line; so why
does the old spring still show 7 spirals as if it's still wound?

Also notice the winding spirals are in the opposite direction from the
original. Why would that be?

Because when the spring is compressed, it's not exposed to the elements.
When you wind the spring it shortens in length by a few inches, then you
tighten it. When unwound, that extra length is visible.

I don't understand.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

I guess you're saying that the old spring was exposed to the elements
while it was in the wound state - and yet - the backside of the spring
isn't exposed to the elements so the backside is noticeably less rusted.

So, I guess, the backside gets a straight line of less rust while the
spring is still wound seven times - and when that spring breaks, that
straight line turns into an opposite spiral of less-rusted spring steel
as the now-broken spring instantly spins back the 7 times to unwind?

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:52:44 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

I don't understand.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

I guess you're saying that the old spring was exposed to the elements
while it was in the wound state - and yet - the backside of the spring
isn't exposed to the elements so the backside is noticeably less rusted.

I wrote to Richard Kinch and to Dan Musick at DDM Garage doors, to
ask them about this weathered line in my broken torsion spring:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

Both engineers kindly responded with great information that explains
this anomaly and, interestingly, which provides a useful homeowner
'trick' to know when your springs might be slipping over time!

First, Dan at DDM Garage Doors explained that many springs have this
reverse wound spiral because dust collects at the TOP of the spring.

As G. Morgan astutely surmised, this linear collection of dust on a
wound spring, over time, causes differential weathering, which shows
up as a straight line on a wound spring.

When that wound spring breaks, the weathering shows up as a reverse spiral
on the unwound spring.

Interestingly, Richard Kinch provided ways to make use of this featu
1. We can PAINT a line on a wound spring to judge slippage over time
2. We can LOOK at an unwound spring and count the number of turns
3. We can LOOK at an unwound spring and determine the chirality

Of course, there are OTHER ways to note slippage, turns, and chirality,
but this feature can be used as a doublecheck!

Indeed, there are still lessons to be learned even AFTER installing
a typical garage door torsion spring!

IN a door install, I always do a chalk line on the spring to count the
number of winds.
john

"Danny D." wrote in message ...

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:52:44 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

I don't understand.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

I guess you're saying that the old spring was exposed to the elements
while it was in the wound state - and yet - the backside of the spring
isn't exposed to the elements so the backside is noticeably less rusted.

I wrote to Richard Kinch and to Dan Musick at DDM Garage doors, to
ask them about this weathered line in my broken torsion spring:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

Both engineers kindly responded with great information that explains
this anomaly and, interestingly, which provides a useful homeowner
'trick' to know when your springs might be slipping over time!

First, Dan at DDM Garage Doors explained that many springs have this
reverse wound spiral because dust collects at the TOP of the spring.

As G. Morgan astutely surmised, this linear collection of dust on a
wound spring, over time, causes differential weathering, which shows
up as a straight line on a wound spring.

When that wound spring breaks, the weathering shows up as a reverse spiral
on the unwound spring.

Interestingly, Richard Kinch provided ways to make use of this featu
1. We can PAINT a line on a wound spring to judge slippage over time
2. We can LOOK at an unwound spring and count the number of turns
3. We can LOOK at an unwound spring and determine the chirality

Of course, there are OTHER ways to note slippage, turns, and chirality,
but this feature can be used as a doublecheck!

Indeed, there are still lessons to be learned even AFTER installing
a typical garage door torsion spring!

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:29:01 -0800, jloomis wrote:

I always do a chalk line on the spring
to count the number of winds.

To be clear, this residual dust spiral we just learned about is NOT
the line chalked (or painted) on the spring BEFORE it's wound.

The chalk line you're talking about would show up as a straight line
on a broken (untensioned) spring.

The dust spiral line I'm discussing occurs AFTER the spring is wound.
It shows up as a residual SPIRAL on a broken untensioned spring!
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11697515.jpg

While there are 3 "potential" uses of this residual dust spiral:
1. We can PAINT a line on a wound spring to judge slippage over time
2. We can LOOK at an unwound spring and count the number of expected turns
3. We can LOOK at an unwound spring and determine the expected chirality

Dan Musick replied that he doesn't find the residual dust spiral of use
in talking to customers over the phone. He says:
1. The amount of explanation required to show how to determine the number
of turns if there is a residual mark is too great, over the phone
2. There's no guarantee the springs were wound correctly in the beginning.
3. Galvanized springs loose as many as two turns of tension, due to
fatigue, over their lives.

But, to the trained (and knowledgeable) eye, the residual dust spiral
contains useful information - if the owner only knew how to read the dust
spiral on the broken spring.

This lesson learned is not obvious, and never was discussed in the
alt.home.repair newsgroup in the past.

One more lesson learned, is I tried to remove the old spring from the
stationary and winding cones. It's not easy. At least not with just a
vise and pipe wrench.

I failed, but I only tried for about 10 minutes on each cone.

Now I know why the new residential springs ship with the cones already
attached!

Danny D. wrote:

One more lesson learned, is I tried to remove the old spring from the
stationary and winding cones. It's not easy. At least not with just a
vise and pipe wrench.

I failed, but I only tried for about 10 minutes on each cone.

Now I know why the new residential springs ship with the cones already
attached!

They use a high pressure crimping machine to attach the winding cone at
the factory. The spring and cone are always sold as a unit.

On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:11:09 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

I tried to remove the old spring from the stationary and winding cones
It's not easy ... I failed

They use a high pressure crimping machine to attach the winding cone at
the factory. The spring and cone are always sold as a unit.

When I was looking at Dan Musick's DDM Garage Door web site, his charts
showed you'd save about 10 bucks or so by requesting springs sans cones.

10 bucks on a $30 spring is an appreciable percentage of the overall cost.

His site even shows how to unwind and re-wind the springs off and on the cones.
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php

REMOVE STATIONARY CONE:
a. Install bolts & nuts from the spring anchor bracket in the stationary cone
b. Next, grip both nuts in a vise.
c. Hook the end of the spring wire with a pipe wrench or large channel locks,
d. Turn the wrench until the spring comes off the cone.
If you do not have a vise, position the spring on the floor
and place a winding bar between the bolts. Hook the end of the spring wire
with the pipe wrench, and lift up on the winding bar while pushing down on
the end of the wrench. Repeat this process until the cone is loose.

REMOVE WINDING CONE:
a. To remove the winding cone secure the cone in the vise,
b. hook the end of the wire and
c. turn the wire off the cone in the same manner.
If you do not have a vise, use the same procedure above, with the only
difference being that you will insert the bar into the winding cone.

However, having tried it briefly (with just vise & wrench), I see now why
most would say it just isn't worth the trouble - so I heartily recommend
buying springs with the winding and stationary cones factory installed.

Hey DD, Thanks for the great info.

I tried to wind my new spring today, and have a big problem. I can not get 90 degrees turn with 18" winding bars due to the structure of the door and the ceiling. I can wind it with 7" bars, but I can only get 13 quarter-turns before it's too difficult to turn. I'm thinking of using 18" bars with a bend in them, or knocking a hole in the garage ceiling. Any other ideas?
Thanks again