Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an auction.
It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. The reason is that it does
not have a ground wire. The second cable is brand new, because I did
not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. I did not realize there
was no ground in that cable until I filled the trench, or I would have
just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. Oddly enough they both
look the same. They are gray and 12-2 UF. I did not know they even
made gray without ground. I recall some old white UF that came without
a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an auction.
It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. The reason is that it does
not have a ground wire. The second cable is brand new, because I did
not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. I did not realize there
was no ground in that cable until I filled the trench, or I would have
just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. Oddly enough they both
look the same. They are gray and 12-2 UF. I did not know they even
made gray without ground. I recall some old white UF that came without
a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.


*In your particular case I would go with your second option, bringing both
cables into one junction box and using the one ground wire for all circuits.

It would have been better and probably cheaper to use PVC conduit and you
could pull additional wires in the future if needed.

On 8/3/2012 5:13 AM, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an auction.
It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. The reason is that it does
not have a ground wire. The second cable is brand new, because I did
not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. I did not realize there
was no ground in that cable until I filled the trench, or I would have
just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. Oddly enough they both
look the same. They are gray and 12-2 UF. I did not know they even
made gray without ground. I recall some old white UF that came without
a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.

I agree with John Grabowski, option two. You shouldn't have used the non
grounded cable, but option two effectively grounds the system

wrote in message
...

Electrical - Is this legal to code?

The OP omitted where he lives. In some places, the code
permits only certified electricians to make changes like this,
in other places not.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On 8/3/2012 5:13 AM, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.


Time to get your shovel back out and plant some 1-1/2" pvc.

wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there
that I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an
auction. It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. The reason is
that it does not have a ground wire. The second cable is brand new,
because I did not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. I did
not realize there was no ground in that cable until I filled the
trench, or I would have just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. Oddly enough they both
look the same. They are gray and 12-2 UF. I did not know they even
made gray without ground. I recall some old white UF that came
without a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering
if an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near
where they enter the shed. That way, there is one ground wire to
that box no matter what. Then run my outlets and lights all to that
box, but use the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two
circuits. This might make more sense but will need more materials to
do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. This is rural property and
they dont bother with small things like this. I'm only asking both
for resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and
just to know how this would be viewed.

Is an actual ground in the vicinity of the un-grounded outlet out of the
question?

On Aug 3, 7:57*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. *Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there
that I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an
auction. It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. *The reason is
that it does not have a ground wire. *The second cable is brand new,
because I did not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. *I did
not realize there was no ground in that cable until I filled the
trench, or I would have just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. *After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. *Oddly enough they both
look the same. *They are gray and 12-2 UF. *I did not know they even
made gray without ground. *I recall some old white UF that came
without a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. *Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). *In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. *On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. *This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering
if an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near
where they enter the shed. *That way, there is one ground wire to
that box no matter what. *Then run my outlets and lights all to that
box, but use the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two
circuits. *This might make more sense but will need more materials to
do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. *This is rural property and
they dont bother with small things like this. *I'm only asking both
for resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and
just to know how this would be viewed.

Is an actual ground in the vicinity of the un-grounded outlet out of the
question?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, that would be a code violation. And I'd go with
option #2 as suggested by John and RBM. It's not
strictly code compliant, but it's close enough and safe so
that I could sleep at nights. Running an exposed ground
wire between boxes is just going to raise flags if it gets
inspected, eg if he sells it some day.

On 8/3/2012 4:13 AM, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

....

... I realized there is no ground on that one cable. ...

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.
....

The answer to the question asked is 'No', it's not Code-compliant to
share the ground between two circuits. In fact, I'm not sure if you're
running a 240V circuit it's legal to run just 3-wire instead of 4 any
longer altho I guess by your second option you only have two 120V circuits.

It's electrically grounded, yes, and in your situation probably not
worth fooling with but if is inspected at some point it will likely be
noted as a deficiency at that point. Whether that's a big problem them
will depend on circumstances at that time, of course.

Had to put a 4-wire cable down the well last week after had to pull pump
owing to in having dropped 'cuz a coupling had been cross-threaded time
before and pipe broke. Fishing ruined the wire unavoidably so had to be
replaced. Now for some absolutely incoherent reason they say a 4-wire
cable is mandated by Code. So there's a fourth wire there w/ nothing to
attach to and no purpose if if there were--it's a 240V load w/ no
neutral current and an existing ground. The fourth wire is fully
redundant. I suggested simply running another 3-wire and just going on
but they apparently aren't even stocking it any longer and wasn't worth
another trip going to town for for the difference for what would cost
from outside supplier.

Just as an aside the small outbuildings here still have only 2-wire
service. The barn and elevator are 3 because they do have some sizable
loads, but never bothered (and never will) go to the trouble to add the
third wire. It's been since REA arrived in '48 and hasn't been a
problem yet; I don't see that it's going to be a problem tomorrow...

There's no question of selling until I'm out of the picture anyway, so
what happens then won't be my worry...we're also outside of direct
jurisdiction and out here folks buying farm property tend to not be too
worried over the trivia of inspections as are the in-town house-buyers.
If the well is good pretty much anything else is fixable.

--

On Aug 3, 5:13*am, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. *Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an auction.
It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. *The reason is that it does
not have a ground wire. *The second cable is brand new, because I did
not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. *I did not realize there
was no ground in that cable until I filled the trench, or I would have
just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. *After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. *Oddly enough they both
look the same. *They are gray and 12-2 UF. *I did not know they even
made gray without ground. *I recall some old white UF that came without
a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. *Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). *In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. *On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. *This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. *That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. *Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. *This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. *This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. *I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.

I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm going to throw this out
anyway. In fact I'll word everything as a question, so I won't
actually be wrong, just curious. ;-)

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Since one circuit comes into the shed at the left-rear, wouldn't you
need to run a wire towards the front for the disconnect?

If so, how will that impact the running of your ground for the
ungrounded circuit?

Jack Legg wrote:
On 8/3/2012 5:13 AM, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.


Time to get your shovel back out and plant some 1-1/2" pvc.

I had a heck of a time pushing 3 10 gauge runs and a data line through my
pipe. It's good to oversize. Lubricant a necessity.

Greg

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 8/3/2012 5:13 AM, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an auction.
It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. The reason is that it does
not have a ground wire. The second cable is brand new, because I did
not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. I did not realize there
was no ground in that cable until I filled the trench, or I would have
just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. Oddly enough they both
look the same. They are gray and 12-2 UF. I did not know they even
made gray without ground. I recall some old white UF that came without
a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.

I agree with John Grabowski, option two. You shouldn't have used the non
grounded cable, but option two effectively grounds the system


Seems like there was something in the NEC that called for a board to be laid
on top of UF when it's trenched in with no other physical protection.

Tomsic

On 8/3/2012 1:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:17:11 -0400, wrote:

Seems like there was something in the NEC that called for a board to be laid
on top of UF when it's trenched in with no other physical protection.

Tomsic


If these are "service conductors", you need a warning ribbon a foot
above the conductors. (300.5(D)(3).

They're not.

By definition of service and service conductors in the NEC, service
conductors must originate from an electrical utility source and end at
the disconnecting means.

These are simply branch conductors; that they happen to be underground
is immaterial to that.

--

On 8/3/2012 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building rather than by
the door, necessarily. Since there are more than one of those points
(apparently) in this installation, Code says there's to be a plaquard at
each location denoting all the other(s).

It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
“service equipment” rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

--

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:21:49 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/3/2012 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building rather than by
the door, necessarily. Since there are more than one of those points
(apparently) in this installation, Code says there's to be a plaquard at
each location denoting all the other(s).

It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
“service equipment” rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

So you're saying that by code that I need a switch or breaker in the
shed that I ran the wires to?

Each circuit has a 20A breaker in the garage. Isn't that enough?

It would be senseless to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the
shed. After all, since both are 20A (in shed and in garage), which one
would trip if there was a short or overload?

The thought does occur to put a double 20A breaker in the garage, thus
supplying 240V to the shed (240 is not needed), and then put another 20A
breaker on each 120V line in the shed. But once again, we're back to
the same issue. Both buildings have a 20A breaker, so which one will
trip? Since the wire is 12 gauge, I cant put a larger breaker in the
garage (such as a 25 or 30A)......

I suppose I could put in one of those old double fuse boxes with a pull
down lever to disconnect, and put in 30A fuses, since the wires are
actually protected by the 20A breakers.

Yet, all of this seems senseless. If a breaker trips, I have to walk
about 35 feet to the garage. I know a guy who lives in a 60 foot long
trailer home, and his breaker panel is in the back bedroom. If he's on
the other end of the trailer, he has to walk nearly 60 feet to go to the
breaker panel. That's almost twice as far as walking to my garage.

The idea of using plain light switches on each of the 2 circuits is
simple enough to wire, but they would need to be some heavy duty
switches. Plain light switches are not designed for heavy loads. This
is a tool shed, there are power saws and other larger motors that need
to start up. If I put in an air cond. or use an electric space heater
in winter both of those are heavy loads. Those switches would need to
be able to handle that current along with the heavy starting current
when a motor starts up.

On 8/4/2012 2:43 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:21:49 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/3/2012 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building rather than by
the door, necessarily. Since there are more than one of those points
(apparently) in this installation, Code says there's to be a plaquard at
each location denoting all the other(s).

It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
“service equipment” rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

So you're saying that by code that I need a switch or breaker in the
shed that I ran the wires to?

You asked what's legal. The NEC allows you to run a single cable, one or
two circuit to the out building without having to install a grounding
electrode system. OK, so you've sort of Rubed two circuits

Each circuit has a 20A breaker in the garage. Isn't that enough?

Disconnects aren't necessarily for overload protection. Sometimes
they're just required as a safety device

It would be senseless to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the
shed. After all, since both are 20A (in shed and in garage), which one
would trip if there was a short or overload?

For two 20 amp circuits you can use "Plain light switches" as
disconnects. You just get ones rated for 20 amp.

The thought does occur to put a double 20A breaker in the garage, thus
supplying 240V to the shed (240 is not needed), and then put another 20A
breaker on each 120V line in the shed. But once again, we're back to
the same issue. Both buildings have a 20A breaker, so which one will
trip? Since the wire is 12 gauge, I cant put a larger breaker in the
garage (such as a 25 or 30A)......

I suppose I could put in one of those old double fuse boxes with a pull
down lever to disconnect, and put in 30A fuses, since the wires are
actually protected by the 20A breakers.

Yet, all of this seems senseless. If a breaker trips, I have to walk
about 35 feet to the garage. I know a guy who lives in a 60 foot long
trailer home, and his breaker panel is in the back bedroom. If he's on
the other end of the trailer, he has to walk nearly 60 feet to go to the
breaker panel. That's almost twice as far as walking to my garage.

The idea of using plain light switches on each of the 2 circuits is
simple enough to wire, but they would need to be some heavy duty
switches. Plain light switches are not designed for heavy loads. This
is a tool shed, there are power saws and other larger motors that need
to start up. If I put in an air cond. or use an electric space heater
in winter both of those are heavy loads. Those switches would need to
be able to handle that current along with the heavy starting current
when a motor starts up.

On 8/4/2012 7:29 AM, RBM wrote:
On 8/4/2012 2:43 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:21:49 -0500, dpb wrote:
....

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building ...

It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
“service equipment” rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

So you're saying that by code that I need a switch or breaker in the
shed that I ran the wires to?

You asked what's legal. The NEC allows you to run a single cable, one or
two circuit to the out building without having to install a grounding
electrode system. OK, so you've sort of Rubed two circuits

Each circuit has a 20A breaker in the garage. Isn't that enough?

Disconnects aren't necessarily for overload protection. Sometimes
they're just required as a safety device

What he said...


It would be senseless to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the
shed. After all, since both are 20A (in shed and in garage), which one
would trip if there was a short or overload?

For two 20 amp circuits you can use "Plain light switches" as
disconnects. You just get ones rated for 20 amp.

....

I suppose I could put in one of those old double fuse boxes with a pull
down lever to disconnect, and put in 30A fuses, since the wires are
actually protected by the 20A breakers.

No, I don't believe that's kosher. I'd have to look it up to find
section but don't think that's approved.

Yet, all of this seems senseless. If a breaker trips, I have to walk
about 35 feet to the garage. I know a guy who lives in a 60 foot long
trailer home, and his breaker panel is in the back bedroom. If he's on
the other end of the trailer, he has to walk nearly 60 feet to go to the
breaker panel. That's almost twice as far as walking to my garage.

But again it's a _local_ disconnect requirement not for overload
protection. That some other application has a longer walk doesn't
change the Code reqm't on your situation...

Again, the issue isn't actual electrical safety in this point as it is
that you asked about what Code says and what would happen if it were
inspected some point in the future.

You might as well while doing something do it near what would meet Code
at least w/o major modifications if that's something that is likely.

The idea of using plain light switches on each of the 2 circuits is
simple enough to wire, but they would need to be some heavy duty
switches. Plain light switches are not designed for heavy loads. This
is a tool shed, there are power saws and other larger motors that need
to start up. If I put in an air cond. or use an electric space heater
in winter both of those are heavy loads. Those switches would need to
be able to handle that current along with the heavy starting current
when a motor starts up.

They need to be 20A on a 20A circuit...that's readily available.

The limiting factor on switch ratings is load switching and these aren't
intended to be used for switching the loads; they're there simply as a
(inexpensive alternative to more expensive) local disconnect. In an
area w/ a shop they could also serve a small safety factor if are any
grandchildren, etc., of being able to cut the power tool power at a
single location might be a benefit...

--

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.
Both cables are on a separate breaker at the source (garage).

You have four wires total, right?

What I would do to make this legal:

1. Install a double pole breaker in the garage, so your load is divided
between both phases of the 240V supply.

2. Assign two wires as the hots (probably the black from each cable), one
as a neutral (one of the whites), and one for the ground. It might take
some work with a multimeter to determine which white wire is assigned as
the ground on the other end (connect a white and a hot on one end, and
check for continuity between wires on the other. That's the white you're
using for the ground).

3. Install a small subpanel in the shed, with an isolated neutral bus bar
(keep the neutral and ground separate).

4. Drive a ground rod outside the shed and connect it to the ground in the
subpanel (6 gauge copper wire).

5. Install two 20A breakers in the subpanel. You'll have two 120V
circuits, one on each phase of the supply.

You could even install a 20A double pole breaker if you needed a 240V
outlet for something, though obviously you wouldn't be able to use that and
the 120V circuits at the same time (you only have 20Amps coming in on the
12 gauge wires).

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com

On 8/4/2012 6:29 AM, RBM wrote:
On 8/4/2012 2:43 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:21:49 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/3/2012 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building rather than by
the door, necessarily.

Yes, that is the requirement (225.31)

Since there are more than one of those points
(apparently) in this installation, Code says there's to be a plaquard at
each location denoting all the other(s).

I didn't remember that other than for services but it is 225.37. I would
try to put both UF runs into a single box with a double pole switch or 2
single pole switches. Along with a 2 pole feed breaker, that hides that
there are 2 separate branch circuits and that one ground is missing.


It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
“service equipment” rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

So you're saying that by code that I need a switch or breaker in the
shed that I ran the wires to?

You asked what's legal. The NEC allows you to run a single cable, one or
two circuit to the out building without having to install a grounding
electrode system. OK, so you've sort of Rubed two circuits

You can only run a single circuit, which can be an Edison circuit
(otherwise use a feeder) (225.30). In addition to the ground, that is
another problem with the plan. As RBM so eloquently said "you've sort of
Rubed two circuits".


Each circuit has a 20A breaker in the garage. Isn't that enough?

Disconnects aren't necessarily for overload protection. Sometimes
they're just required as a safety device

It would be senseless to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the
shed. After all, since both are 20A (in shed and in garage), which one
would trip if there was a short or overload?

For two 20 amp circuits you can use "Plain light switches" as
disconnects. You just get ones rated for 20 amp.
....
The idea of using plain light switches on each of the 2 circuits is
simple enough to wire, but they would need to be some heavy duty
switches. Plain light switches are not designed for heavy loads. This
is a tool shed, there are power saws and other larger motors that need
to start up. If I put in an air cond. or use an electric space heater
in winter both of those are heavy loads. Those switches would need to
be able to handle that current along with the heavy starting current
when a motor starts up.

'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

--
bud--

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
....


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

--

On 8/4/2012 11:16 AM, HerHusband wrote:
I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.
Both cables are on a separate breaker at the source (garage).

You have four wires total, right?

What I would do to make this legal:

1. Install a double pole breaker in the garage, so your load is divided
between both phases of the 240V supply.

2. Assign two wires as the hots (probably the black from each cable), one
as a neutral (one of the whites), and one for the ground. It might take
some work with a multimeter to determine which white wire is assigned as
the ground on the other end (connect a white and a hot on one end, and
check for continuity between wires on the other. That's the white you're
using for the ground).

3. Install a small subpanel in the shed, with an isolated neutral bus bar
(keep the neutral and ground separate).

4. Drive a ground rod outside the shed and connect it to the ground in the
subpanel (6 gauge copper wire).

5. Install two 20A breakers in the subpanel. You'll have two 120V
circuits, one on each phase of the supply.

You could even install a 20A double pole breaker if you needed a 240V
outlet for something, though obviously you wouldn't be able to use that and
the 120V circuits at the same time (you only have 20Amps coming in on the
12 gauge wires).
....

He has 5 wires, total...one 12/2 w/G another 12/2 w/o

Rather than all that which isn't compliant either (not supposed to have
multiple cables making up one circuit) he might as well just use the one
3-wire from a double-pole supply breaker and go to a box in the
outbuilding and then from there the internal circuits. He can have both
that way (assuming he uses an appropriate box, of course). He'll still
be limited to the overall capacity of the 12 AWG wire but sounds like
pretty small loads any way.

What he loses is that at the moment he does have two 20A circuits.

--

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

On 8/4/2012 1:36 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/4/2012 11:16 AM, HerHusband wrote:
I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.
Both cables are on a separate breaker at the source (garage).

You have four wires total, right?

What I would do to make this legal:

1. Install a double pole breaker in the garage, so your load is divided
between both phases of the 240V supply.

2. Assign two wires as the hots (probably the black from each cable), one
as a neutral (one of the whites), and one for the ground. It might take
some work with a multimeter to determine which white wire is assigned as
the ground on the other end (connect a white and a hot on one end, and
check for continuity between wires on the other. That's the white you're
using for the ground).

3. Install a small subpanel in the shed, with an isolated neutral bus bar
(keep the neutral and ground separate).

4. Drive a ground rod outside the shed and connect it to the ground in
the
subpanel (6 gauge copper wire).

5. Install two 20A breakers in the subpanel. You'll have two 120V
circuits, one on each phase of the supply.

You could even install a 20A double pole breaker if you needed a 240V
outlet for something, though obviously you wouldn't be able to use
that and
the 120V circuits at the same time (you only have 20Amps coming in on the
12 gauge wires).
...

He has 5 wires, total...one 12/2 w/G another 12/2 w/o

Rather than all that which isn't compliant either (not supposed to have
multiple cables making up one circuit) he might as well just use the one
3-wire from a double-pole supply breaker and go to a box in the
outbuilding and then from there the internal circuits. He can have both
that way (assuming he uses an appropriate box, of course). He'll still
be limited to the overall capacity of the 12 AWG wire but sounds like
pretty small loads any way.

What he loses is that at the moment he does have two 20A circuits.

--
If he does that, he can only have 240 volt circuits. He'll have no neutral

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:23:44 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

I would have agreed with you ten-fifteen years ago but they're pretty good,
now. A sump pump, likely not. But there is no reason to avoid them for any
other application. Grounding does *not* do the same job.

On 8/4/2012 6:54 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:23:44 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

I would have agreed with you ten-fifteen years ago but they're pretty good,
now. A sump pump, likely not. But there is no reason to avoid them for any
other application. Grounding does *not* do the same job.

Well, if you installed hundreds of them annually for a living, like I
do, you might see if differently.

On 8/4/2012 5:54 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:23:44 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

I would have agreed with you ten-fifteen years ago but they're pretty good,
now. A sump pump, likely not. But there is no reason to avoid them for any
other application. Grounding does *not* do the same job.

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:09:43 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 6:54 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:23:44 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

I would have agreed with you ten-fifteen years ago but they're pretty good,
now. A sump pump, likely not. But there is no reason to avoid them for any
other application. Grounding does *not* do the same job.

Well, if you installed hundreds of them annually for a living, like I
do, you might see if differently.

So you're an electrician who admits to not following code. Interesting.

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 18:10:59 -0500, DanG wrote:

On 8/4/2012 5:54 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:23:44 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

I would have agreed with you ten-fifteen years ago but they're pretty good,
now. A sump pump, likely not. But there is no reason to avoid them for any
other application. Grounding does *not* do the same job.

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.

That's extremely rare anymore. As I said, fifteen years ago, sure. I might
not put one on a freezer, either but that's not the general case. I'm wiring
my basement now and I'll use them everywhere. There's really no reason not
to.

On 8/4/2012 7:19 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:09:43 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 6:54 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:23:44 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/4/2012 2:12 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:28:51 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/4/2012 11:52 AM, bud-- wrote:
...


'Ordinary' wall switches are designed to be used at their rated current.
They can be used at 80% of their rating to switch motors (404.14-A-3). A
20A switch is good enough. It can switch a motor rated 16A. I might use
a spec grade switch. (That is for a switch rated AC only, which is
probably all you can find anyway. An AC/DC rated switch is a little
different.)

Which is true, but the point here isn't that they're going to be
switching loads anyways...there are switches on the tools for that.

Receptacles need to be GFCI protected.

That's the one I tend to choose to ignore...

Why?

Because the failure rate is too high. I see no point to having things
like sump pumps protected by GF devices. IMO a properly grounded,
dedicated single receptacle should suffice, but the Nec no longer has
any exceptions for GF locations

I would have agreed with you ten-fifteen years ago but they're pretty good,
now. A sump pump, likely not. But there is no reason to avoid them for any
other application. Grounding does *not* do the same job.

Well, if you installed hundreds of them annually for a living, like I
do, you might see if differently.

So you're an electrician who admits to not following code. Interesting.

No, but I am an electrician voicing my opinion about a particular code

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

He has 5 wires, total...one 12/2 w/G another 12/2 w/o

I missed that in the original post, but that would make the installation
easier having a dedicated ground wire. Just cap off and ignore the extra
white neutral wire (you would still have to do some testing with a meter to
determine which wire you are using).

Rather than all that which isn't compliant either (not supposed to
have multiple cables making up one circuit)

Agreed, but it's kind of too late to be completely code compliant at this
point and still have two circuits. Electrically, the four wires in the two
cables would be no different than running four individual wires in conduit.
The rest is a typical subpanel installation.

I would make it all up as I described. If he ever digs up the line and
installs conduit and the proper wires, it would be an easy conversion.

he might as well just use the one 3-wire from a double-pole supply
breaker and go to a box in the outbuilding and then from there the
internal circuits.

As RBM posted, that wouldn't provide two 120V circuits with neutrals and a
ground. The method I posted does, and also leaves the option for a 240V
circuit if you need that.

He'll still be limited to the overall capacity of the 12 AWG wire but
sounds like pretty small loads any way.

Yep, by not planning ahead, the original poster has seriously limited what
he can do. Still, he's probably not going to have more than a light and an
outlet or two in a shed.

I ran conduit to my shed, with 10 gauge wire to support a 30A subpanel.
That's way more than I'm likely to need, but I can always pull that out and
feed bigger wire if I need to.

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

I don't know about the CEC, but the NEC requires GF protection in
certain locations regardless what you're plugging in.

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device

Right, but sump pumps are usually plugged in and are usually in places that
require GFCI (wet areas/basements).

On 8/5/2012 5:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device

Right, but sump pumps are usually plugged in and are usually in places that
require GFCI (wet areas/basements).

As are sewage ejection pumps. It's not the pump, but the location that
requires the GF protection. None of these things require it, if they're
hard wired. (unless the manufacturer requires it)

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:55:48 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device

Right, but sump pumps are usually plugged in and are usually in places that
require GFCI (wet areas/basements).

As are sewage ejection pumps. It's not the pump, but the location that
requires the GF protection. None of these things require it, if they're
hard wired. (unless the manufacturer requires it)

Ok.... Aren't *all* sewage pumps hard-wired? I've never seen a sump pump
that was. They all seem to come with cords/plugs.

On 8/5/2012 6:57 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:55:48 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device

Right, but sump pumps are usually plugged in and are usually in places that
require GFCI (wet areas/basements).

As are sewage ejection pumps. It's not the pump, but the location that
requires the GF protection. None of these things require it, if they're
hard wired. (unless the manufacturer requires it)

Ok.... Aren't *all* sewage pumps hard-wired? I've never seen a sump pump
that was. They all seem to come with cords/plugs.

Not if you're referring to a residential type sewage ejection pump,
they're typically cord and plug. Some of the effluent pumps in outdoor,
underground pits are hard wired. Recently I'm even seeing commercial
duplex sump controllers that use outlets for the pumps. It's just easier
to do repairs and replacements.

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 19:51:41 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 6:57 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:55:48 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device

Right, but sump pumps are usually plugged in and are usually in places that
require GFCI (wet areas/basements).

As are sewage ejection pumps. It's not the pump, but the location that
requires the GF protection. None of these things require it, if they're
hard wired. (unless the manufacturer requires it)

Ok.... Aren't *all* sewage pumps hard-wired? I've never seen a sump pump
that was. They all seem to come with cords/plugs.

Not if you're referring to a residential type sewage ejection pump,
they're typically cord and plug.

I'll believe you. I've personally never seen one.

Some of the effluent pumps in outdoor,
underground pits are hard wired. Recently I'm even seeing commercial
duplex sump controllers that use outlets for the pumps. It's just easier
to do repairs and replacements.

I thought that was the reason for the residential units being plug-n-cord.
They always go when the water is risin'.