On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:


Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.


If he kept his freezers in an unfinished basement, doesn't the code now
say to have gfi?

To be honest, he probably never thought about it.

On Aug 6, 10:00*am, Duesenberg wrote:
On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? *It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. *A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

If he kept his freezers in an unfinished basement, doesn't the code now
say to have gfi?


Yes, that's the issue.

On Aug 6, 10:11*am, "
wrote:
On Aug 6, 10:00*am, Duesenberg wrote:





On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? *It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. *A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

If he kept his freezers in an unfinished basement, doesn't the code now
say to have gfi?

Yes, that's the issue.

I had a home for sale the home inspector wrote up the sump pump was
not GFCI protected, sump pump was in garage. So I added the GFCI, but
the sale fell thru

the 2nd home buyers inspector wrote up that the sump pump should NOT
be GFCI protected......

there was no way to win.......

selling that home was a nightmare.....

the 2 different inspectors reports had nearly nothing in common, and
inspector 2 had the first inspectors report

On Aug 6, 10:18*am, bob haller wrote:
On Aug 6, 10:11*am, "
wrote:





On Aug 6, 10:00*am, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? *It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. *A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

If he kept his freezers in an unfinished basement, doesn't the code now
say to have gfi?

Yes, that's the issue.

I had a home for sale the home inspector wrote up the sump pump was
not GFCI protected, sump pump was in garage. So I added *the GFCI, but
the sale fell thru

the 2nd home buyers inspector wrote up that the sump pump should NOT
be GFCI protected......

there was no way to win.......

selling that home was a nightmare.....

the 2 different inspectors reports had nearly nothing in common, and
inspector 2 had the first inspectors report- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And apparently neither knew that the code requirements in virtually
all
cases are not retroactive. Meaning that whatever applied when the
outlet for the sump pump was put in is all that needs to be met.
With the view they had it's a wonder they didn't come up with a
whole list of crap.

On 8/6/2012 10:29 AM, wrote:
On Aug 6, 10:18 am, bob haller wrote:
On Aug 6, 10:11 am, "
wrote:





On Aug 6, 10:00 am, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

If he kept his freezers in an unfinished basement, doesn't the code now
say to have gfi?

Yes, that's the issue.

I had a home for sale the home inspector wrote up the sump pump was
not GFCI protected, sump pump was in garage. So I added the GFCI, but
the sale fell thru

the 2nd home buyers inspector wrote up that the sump pump should NOT
be GFCI protected......

there was no way to win.......

selling that home was a nightmare.....

the 2 different inspectors reports had nearly nothing in common, and
inspector 2 had the first inspectors report- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And apparently neither knew that the code requirements in virtually
all
cases are not retroactive. Meaning that whatever applied when the
outlet for the sump pump was put in is all that needs to be met.
With the view they had it's a wonder they didn't come up with a
whole list of crap.

That's the idea. Come up with a long list to help the buyer knock the
price down. In my business, I get this all the time, and I generally
mention that not a stitch of the 1975 wiring in this house meets current
code,so why just pick on the non ground fault protection for all the
kitchen counter outlets, lets gut this puppy. Can't tell you how many
letters I've written as well, refuting "home inspectors". But in the
end, it usually comes down to it being a buyers market or sellers market.

On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:06:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Aug 3, 5:13Â*am, wrote:
Electrical - Is this legal to code?

I dug a trench from the garage to a toolshed, and put about 30 feet of
12-2 UF cable underground to the shed. Â*Before filling the trench, I
decided that maybe it would be best to put two of these cables in so I
have two circuits in there, mainly because it gets so hot in there that
I might put in a small air conditioner.

The first cable I installed was some UF cable that I got at an auction.
It's unused cable, but apparently old stock. Â*The reason is that it does
not have a ground wire. Â*The second cable is brand new, because I did
not have enough of that old stuff to go twice. Â*I did not realize there
was no ground in that cable until I filled the trench, or I would have
just bought all new cable.

Anyhow, I ran one cable to the left+rear of the shed, the other to the
right+front. Â*After I get it all stapled and into boxes is when I
realized there is no ground on that one cable. Â*Oddly enough they both
look the same. Â*They are gray and 12-2 UF. Â*I did not know they even
made gray without ground. Â*I recall some old white UF that came without
a ground years ago.

Anyhow, this is what I plan to do. Â*Both cables are on a separate
breaker at the source (garage). Â*In the shed, I will ground the ground
wire to the box from the cable that has a ground. Â*On the second cable
without the ground, I'll run a bare or green wire to the other circuit
that has the ground wire. Â*This will just be a bare copper wire (or
green insulated) across the rafters to a box on the other circuit.

Electrically speaking, this is a completed ground, but I'm wondering if
an inspector would allow such a connection?

My other option, seems to be to run both cables into one box, near where
they enter the shed. Â*That way, there is one ground wire to that box no
matter what. Â*Then run my outlets and lights all to that box, but use
the hot and neutral wires as planned to have two circuits. Â*This might
make more sense but will need more materials to do.

By the way, this will not be inspected. Â*This is rural property and they
dont bother with small things like this. Â*I'm only asking both for
resale value (at which time there could be an inspection), and just to
know how this would be viewed.

I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm going to throw this out
anyway. In fact I'll word everything as a question, so I won't
actually be wrong, just curious. ;-)

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Since one circuit comes into the shed at the left-rear, wouldn't you
need to run a wire towards the front for the disconnect?

If so, how will that impact the running of your ground for the
ungrounded circuit?
Not saying it is code compliant, but to meet the INTENT of the law,
I'd tie the 2 neutrals together and use a fused 2 pole (240 v)
disconnect, grounded with the one existing bond wire - connected to a
"tied" 240 volt breaker at the main panel - giving the capability of
using as a 240 volt supply if required. Use a fused or breaker type
subpanel in the outbuilding

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 01:43:05 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:21:49 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/3/2012 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building rather than by
the door, necessarily. Since there are more than one of those points
(apparently) in this installation, Code says there's to be a plaquard at
each location denoting all the other(s).

It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
€œservice equipment€� rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

So you're saying that by code that I need a switch or breaker in the
shed that I ran the wires to?

Each circuit has a 20A breaker in the garage. Isn't that enough?

It would be senseless to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the
shed. After all, since both are 20A (in shed and in garage), which one
would trip if there was a short or overload?

The thought does occur to put a double 20A breaker in the garage, thus
supplying 240V to the shed (240 is not needed), and then put another 20A
breaker on each 120V line in the shed. But once again, we're back to
the same issue. Both buildings have a 20A breaker, so which one will
trip? Since the wire is 12 gauge, I cant put a larger breaker in the
garage (such as a 25 or 30A)......

I suppose I could put in one of those old double fuse boxes with a pull
down lever to disconnect, and put in 30A fuses, since the wires are
actually protected by the 20A breakers.

Yet, all of this seems senseless. If a breaker trips, I have to walk
about 35 feet to the garage. I know a guy who lives in a 60 foot long
trailer home, and his breaker panel is in the back bedroom. If he's on
the other end of the trailer, he has to walk nearly 60 feet to go to the
breaker panel. That's almost twice as far as walking to my garage.

The idea of using plain light switches on each of the 2 circuits is
simple enough to wire, but they would need to be some heavy duty
switches. Plain light switches are not designed for heavy loads. This
is a tool shed, there are power saws and other larger motors that need
to start up. If I put in an air cond. or use an electric space heater
in winter both of those are heavy loads. Those switches would need to
be able to handle that current along with the heavy starting current
when a motor starts up.

The "disconnect" does not NEED to be "protected" - it is there for
safety reasons - so you can cut the power quickly in case of a
malfunction/emergency. As I stated before, I would use a 240 volt
disconnect at the door and tie the 2 cables together at both ends -
sharing the neutral - and mark appropriately.

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 16:22:08 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

I don't know about the CEC, but the NEC requires GF protection in
certain locations regardless what you're plugging in.
On new installation. My 38 year old home doesn't have, or require,
ANY GFCI devices. Then again, there is no "unfinished" space in the
whole house. Some "semi-finished" - and no sump pump.

I would not buy a house that needs one, personally. Enough high spots,
on sand, in our area that I don't need to settle for a house built in
a valley, on clay, or in a swamp. And no need or desire to move to an
area where that is not the case.

The freezer is another story - and I DO have a "power out indicator"
on the freezer outlet. I plugged an old UPS into the other side of the
outlet, where the water softener plugs in. If the power goes out it
hollers loud enough that I can hear it all the way to the top floor.

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device
And NOT if it is a "dedicated circuit" with a single, rather than
duplex, receptacle - at least not under Ontario code, the last I
heard.

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 23:39:21 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:36:01 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 5:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 14:53:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow?

Because it's code in much of the US. There used to be an exception for
freezers when they were the only thing on the branch (single outlet) but that
went away recently.

It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

All but the sump pump, shouldn't be plugged into outlets in a wet area,
particularly life support devices. I doubt sewage pumps are required to be on
GFCIs because they're hard-wired, no?

Neither sewage pumps or sump pumps are required to be GF protected,
unless the manufacturer requires it. It is the outlet location where the
pump is plugged in, that may require the GFCI device
And NOT if it is a "dedicated circuit" with a single, rather than
duplex, receptacle - at least not under Ontario code, the last I
heard.

That's the discussion. The latest NEC changed that exception.

On 8/7/2012 11:37 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 16:22:08 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 8/5/2012 3:53 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:35:50 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 8/4/2012 7:10 PM, DanG wrote:

Tell that to my friend that just lost a freezer full of groceries. GFI
had tripped with no apparent symptoms before or after.



My neighbour had a gfi outlet "trip" on him while he was away for a few
weeks. He lost a 20 cu foot freezer full of meat. Several deer, couple
moose, and several several several choice cuts of freshwater fish in
addition to beef/pork/poultry/lamb.

His home insurance agent actually came out and agree to compensate him
$1700 for the lost spoils of hunting and fishing.

I would imagine the deer and moose and bear of Northern Ontario will be
paying the true price of this gfi "trip" for the next couple years...

Why would a GFI be placed on a freezer or refrigerator anyhow? It's bad
enough when there is a power outage and these appliances go off, but
normally the power is restored long before these foods are ruined. A
tripped GFI does not notify the owner of the failure, and it may be days
before the woner finds out what occurred.

A GFI should never be used on a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump,
sewerage pump, furnace, or life support device.

I don't know about the CEC, but the NEC requires GF protection in
certain locations regardless what you're plugging in.
On new installation. My 38 year old home doesn't have, or require,
ANY GFCI devices. Then again, there is no "unfinished" space in the
whole house. Some "semi-finished" - and no sump pump.

I would not buy a house that needs one, personally. Enough high spots,
on sand, in our area that I don't need to settle for a house built in
a valley, on clay, or in a swamp. And no need or desire to move to an
area where that is not the case.

The freezer is another story - and I DO have a "power out indicator"
on the freezer outlet. I plugged an old UPS into the other side of the
outlet, where the water softener plugs in. If the power goes out it
hollers loud enough that I can hear it all the way to the top floor.

Of course new installations, but also replacements

On 8/7/2012 8:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 01:43:05 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:21:49 -0500, wrote:

On 8/3/2012 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I believe that code requires a disconnect for out builidings that can
be reached from the door. Since you are planning to have 2 separate
circuits, do you need 2 disconnect switches? Are 2 disconnects allowed
or should you have used 1 run to a disconnect panel and then splilt
the circuits inside the shed? (A bit late for that, I would think)

Yes, Code does say there does need to be a disconnect for each branch
circuit at the nearest point where it enters the building rather than by
the door, necessarily. Since there are more than one of those points
(apparently) in this installation, Code says there's to be a plaquard at
each location denoting all the other(s).

It does allow for residential outbuildings to use a a snap switch (or a
set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches) as the disconnecting means for
garages and outbuildings on residential property without having a
€œservice equipment€� rating.

So, his cheapest out that is at least reasonably close would be to wire
his inlet into a double box and feed the receptacle from the switch and
then if he is going to have another outlet feed it from that outlet.

It all goes to show one ought to do the planning _before_ the
construction...

So you're saying that by code that I need a switch or breaker in the
shed that I ran the wires to?

Each circuit has a 20A breaker in the garage. Isn't that enough?

It would be senseless to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the
shed. After all, since both are 20A (in shed and in garage), which one
would trip if there was a short or overload?

The thought does occur to put a double 20A breaker in the garage, thus
supplying 240V to the shed (240 is not needed), and then put another 20A
breaker on each 120V line in the shed. But once again, we're back to
the same issue. Both buildings have a 20A breaker, so which one will
trip? Since the wire is 12 gauge, I cant put a larger breaker in the
garage (such as a 25 or 30A)......

I suppose I could put in one of those old double fuse boxes with a pull
down lever to disconnect, and put in 30A fuses, since the wires are
actually protected by the 20A breakers.

Yet, all of this seems senseless. If a breaker trips, I have to walk
about 35 feet to the garage. I know a guy who lives in a 60 foot long
trailer home, and his breaker panel is in the back bedroom. If he's on
the other end of the trailer, he has to walk nearly 60 feet to go to the
breaker panel. That's almost twice as far as walking to my garage.

The idea of using plain light switches on each of the 2 circuits is
simple enough to wire, but they would need to be some heavy duty
switches. Plain light switches are not designed for heavy loads. This
is a tool shed, there are power saws and other larger motors that need
to start up. If I put in an air cond. or use an electric space heater
in winter both of those are heavy loads. Those switches would need to
be able to handle that current along with the heavy starting current
when a motor starts up.

The "disconnect" does not NEED to be "protected" - it is there for
safety reasons - so you can cut the power quickly in case of a
malfunction/emergency.

Who said anything about "protected"?

As I stated before, I would use a 240 volt
disconnect at the door

As dpb said several days ago (and quoted above) the NEC wants the
disconnect "at the nearest point where it enters the building rather
than by the door."

and tie the 2 cables together at both ends -
sharing the neutral - and mark appropriately.

Paralleling the neutrals is a code violation and not necessary.

borrowed from different post:
Use a fused or breaker type subpanel in the outbuilding

A breaker subpanel in the shed for 2-20A circuits? All that is required
is a simple switch. As the OP said (quoted above) "it would be senseless
to put another 20A breaker for each circuit in the shed."

But no problem. Holmes will fix the wiring you do when he discovers it.

--
bud--