On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 20:53:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:31:30 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

On 7/20/2012 5:12 PM, TomR wrote:
snip

For a one-day (or two-day) job, make sure that you do not give them a
deposit up front. Let them do the job and then pay them in full as soon as
it is done to your satisfaction. If they are lining up jobs and taking
deposits, those who paid a deposit may be the last to see their job
completed. Once a deposit is paid, there is little incentive for the
contract to actually do the work since he already has his "profit" in hand.

Company C's proposal says: "A deposit is required, additional payment
due at start of job & remaining balance due day of completion." Amount
of deposit is not stated.

Company B says: "Cost of Materials to be paid upon delivery. The
difference to be deducted from the total price of job." No deposit is
required. It doesn't specifically say that balance is due upon completion.

R1


"Cost of Materials to be paid upon delivery.

Contractors want to telegraph the cost of their materials?

The difference to be
deducted from the total price of job" generally indicates cash-flow
problems. 15% to 25% deposit is fair.

Cash flow problem? Aren't contractors on an invoice+30 sort of deal? I
suppose if they can't get that much credit, there really is a problem. If
that's the case, I don't think I want them working on my house.

OTOH, I don't think 15-25% is unreasonable either. If there is any thought
that the contractor will skip, perhaps a different choice of contractor is in
order.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:44:46 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



Although I am sure its a mixed bag there MAY be advantages to contracting with home depot or lowes for a roof. even if a problem shows up years later they will still be around


Plenty of people have had big problems with HD and Lowes. I'd trust
itinerants recruited at a local bar before those guys.
HD and Lowes use a "contactor" that will do the job at their price.
You can hire the same or better. The only "advantage" is it is "one
stop shopping". But so is hiring a good roofing contractor yourself.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:05:33 -0400, "
wrote:




The difference to be
deducted from the total price of job" generally indicates cash-flow
problems. 15% to 25% deposit is fair.

Cash flow problem? Aren't contractors on an invoice+30 sort of deal? I
suppose if they can't get that much credit, there really is a problem. If
that's the case, I don't think I want them working on my house.



It may or may not. Some suppliers offer discounts for up front
payment and that allows the contractor to bid lower than if he paid in
30 days.

One roofer that has been in business since 1935 required 1/3 at
delivery of material. Of course, they do a lot of big jobs that are
far more than one day. They don't get stuck that way.

In my business, it is common to get 1/3 with order, 2/3 when tooling
is sampled. We start spending our money as soon as an order is
placed, so it is better to spend at least part of the customers
instead. As always, there are exceptions.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:03:04 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:05:33 -0400, "
wrote:




The difference to be
deducted from the total price of job" generally indicates cash-flow
problems. 15% to 25% deposit is fair.

Cash flow problem? Aren't contractors on an invoice+30 sort of deal? I
suppose if they can't get that much credit, there really is a problem. If
that's the case, I don't think I want them working on my house.



It may or may not. Some suppliers offer discounts for up front
payment and that allows the contractor to bid lower than if he paid in
30 days.

Makes sense. I guess the other way to look at it is he pockets any float if
he does get invoice+30.

One roofer that has been in business since 1935 required 1/3 at
delivery of material. Of course, they do a lot of big jobs that are
far more than one day. They don't get stuck that way.

Isn't he getting kinda old to be doing that? ;-)

In the part of my post you snipped, I said I really wouldn't object to such
terms as long as I was positive they wouldn't skip with my deposit.

In my business, it is common to get 1/3 with order, 2/3 when tooling
is sampled. We start spending our money as soon as an order is
placed, so it is better to spend at least part of the customers
instead. As always, there are exceptions.

You sure wouldn't get any business from my PPoE. ;-/

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:48:45 -0400, "
wrote:




One roofer that has been in business since 1935 required 1/3 at
delivery of material. Of course, they do a lot of big jobs that are
far more than one day. They don't get stuck that way.

Isn't he getting kinda old to be doing that? ;-)

He has a ladder that is adapted for use with a walker.

On 7/21/2012 8:53 PM, wrote:


"Cost of Materials to be paid upon delivery. The difference to be
deducted from the total price of job" generally indicates cash-flow
problems. 15% to 25% deposit is fair.

Or if you removed the one sided business is always evil idea it simply
means the contractor will at least be covered for the materials should
the customer decide not to pay.

Rebel1 wrote:
On 7/20/2012 4:43 PM, wrote:

The only thing I would suggest is to request references of nearby
customers where they have done roofing jobs. Then make sure you
contact and talk to those references. Price is not the only
consideration for a job that should last 20+ years. If the
workmanship is substandard then you've wasted your money. And all too
often the roofing company will go out of business and leave you up the
creek. Also check with your state or local BBB (Better Business
Bureau) to see how these vendors are rated.

Good luck - you'll have to live with your choice for a LONG time.

Company C has been a BBB member since 1986, and is rated A. I'm going to
their office next week to randomly pull references. They are based right in my hometown.

Thanks,

R1

One contractor that I got an estimate from included a 13 page document
listing the addresses, the year of the job and the shingle color of the
roof for jobs they had done in recent years. With hundreds of houses
listed I have to assume that it wasn't scrubbed to ensure glowing
references. Maybe some really bad ones were left off, but there sure were a
lot of houses that they didn't mind us checking out our own.

I didn't choose them for other reasons, but SWMBO and I did use their list
to help us choose a roof color.

I suggested to the guy that I picked that he should do something similar
since I was certainly impressed with the list that the other guy had given
me. Not only did it give me confidence in his work, but it really helped to
see shingles on an actual roof instead of just on the sample boards.

As far as payment, my contractor was satisfied with payment upon completion
for a job that included a tear-off, roof, ridge vents, gutters, full soffit
cuts and vinyl soffit covers. He even came up into my attic to make sure I
knew how to install the rafter baffles correctly to take full advantage of
the soffit vents he was going to cut.

I'm a PITA and ask a lot of questions. I was very happy to hear him tell me
to ask anything I wanted because he wanted to be sure that there was no
misunderstanding as to what was going to be done and why. He said "When I'm
done with this job I don't want to come back unless you have more work for
me."

Ya know, if you figure the hourly rate, these guys are making 200-300/hr
for basically driving in a few 1000 nails, approx 9,000 in your case, and
tossing old shingles in a dumpster. Ridge vents, crickets, valleys etc
require some special knowledge and skills but with a little research those
can be installed properly. The critical issue with roofing is weather and
therefore timing. If you can remove and dry-in one side or both with some
durable underlayment (2-3x the cost of tar paper), you can take all summer
to install the new shingles. Heck, you could even buy a compressor, nail
gun and still be $1,000's ahead.

If you think it is too demanding physically hire a young helper who is
willing to work for a FAIR wage - craigslist, local trade schools etc.
I did my 25 sq roof with 2 valleys 3 yrs ago for under $2000 including a
helper I paid $400 for 20 hrs work. Got lucky with the 35 yr arch shingles
on clearance for $40/sq

Of course, this is all assuming you have a low slope, simple roof as most
ranch style houses do.


And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.


Interesting to note that company C said you didn't need a new roof but
you are still going ahead?

On Jul 23, 8:29*am, mark wrote:
Ya know, if you figure the hourly rate, these guys are making 200-300/hr
for basically driving in a few 1000 nails, approx 9,000 in your case, and
tossing old shingles in a dumpster. *Ridge vents, crickets, valleys etc
require some special knowledge and skills but with a little research those
can be installed properly. The critical issue with roofing is weather and
therefore timing. If you can remove and dry-in one side or both with some
durable underlayment (2-3x the cost of tar paper), you can take all summer
to install the new shingles. Heck, you could even buy a compressor, nail
gun and still be $1,000's ahead.

If you think it is too demanding physically hire a young helper who is
willing to work for a FAIR wage - craigslist, local trade schools etc.
I did my 25 sq roof with 2 valleys 3 yrs ago for under $2000 including a
helper I paid $400 for 20 hrs work. Got lucky with the 35 yr arch shingles
on clearance for $40/sq

Of course, this is all assuming you have a low slope, simple roof as most
ranch style houses do.

And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

Interesting to note that company C said you didn't need *a new roof but
you are still going ahead?

"Ya know, if you figure the hourly rate, these guys are making
200-300/hr for basically driving in a few 1000 nails, approx 9,000 in
your case, and tossing old shingles in a dumpster."

Just checking:

Did you factor in their overhead costs such as insurance, the
dumpster, the maintenance of their trucks, compressors and nail guns,
certification for some of the newer "roofing systems", time spent
ordering materials, estimating jobs that don't turn into contracts,
etc.?

I'm not planning on checking your math, but it's a bit more
complicated than (Contract Price minus Material Costs)/Hours Spent On
Roof.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:29:16 +0000 (UTC), mark
wrote:





Interesting to note that company C said you didn't need a new roof but
you are still going ahead?

The best time to get a new roof is just before you "need" one. I know
I could have stretched min another year or two, but with no leaks I
have no wood damage.

On 7/21/2012 3:30 PM, Gomba wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message
...
I've received three estimates to remove two old layers and add a new
layer to my 3400 sq ft roof on a ranch house in central New Jersey.

Company A: $11,940.00, GAF Timberline Lifetime shingles. Gave estimate on
the spot. Said job would take less than one day. Estimate includes $700
dumpster charge, and up to three sheets of plywood. (I estimate that the
one soft spot is only 1 foot x 3 feet.) Cricket not discussed.)

Company B: $9,280, IKO Cambridge AR. Gave estimate on the spot. Said job
would take less than one day. No dumpster; uses company-owned dump
trucks. Up to three sheets of plywood free. If I want GAF shingles, they
would charge an extra $980, bringing the total to $10,260. Price of
building a cricket next to the chimney included.

Company C: $8,575, GAF Timberline Lifetime singles. Came to my house on
Monday, promised an estimate via email in one or two days; it arrived
today, four days later. Each sheet of plywood, $50. Will probably use a
dumpster. Cricket included.

Peripheral stuff like ridge vents, drip edges and replacing plumbing pipe
penetrations with non-rusting aluminum ones are the same with all three
companies. The warranty on the IKO shingles seems better than on the GAF,
but once you read them you see that all contain too many loopholes and
limitations, and just about all shingle manufacturers are involved in
class action lawsuits regarding not honoring their warranties.

In Company C's favor, aside from the price: He was the only one to walk
on the roof, inspect it and tell me I really didn't need a new one; there
are just portions of one or two shingles missing. Also, his email
proposal was the most professional, with each item specified in great
detail and everything neatly typed in a Word document.

Against Company C: He didn't meet his own deadline for the estimate,
which raises doubt about his trustworthiness; the job would take more
than the one day the other two companies promised, and the dumpster. (I
probably shouldn't be concerned about the dumpster, as it will be on
plywood "feet" to protect my blacktop driveway.)

As I am writing this, Company B called. I asked how C could be so much
lower than B even with the GAF shingles he wants an extra $980 for. B
called back at few minutes later, after checking his figures, and came
back with $9,700 as his best price.

(For the record, HD charges about $100 per square (3 bundles) for the GAF
Timberline Lifetime shingles, and my roof needs 34 bundles. IKO runs
about $84 per bundle if picked up, $88.65 if delivered, and $90 if boomed
up. IKO prices are from an Indiana company, ReeseWholesaler.com. So HD, a
retailer, would charge $510 more for the GAFs.)

With C being $1,125 cheaper, seems like a no-brainer to chose them. But I
thank you for your comments on something I may have overlooked, and
whether to bring in a company D and E

Red flags on companies A&B. Up to "3" sheets of plywood. Exactly how much
are they going to refund if they don't use any? Or, just 1 or 2 sheets?
The sheathing used should be spelled out by even company "C". Something
like " 1/2" 4 ply, or 3 ply ( which you don't want), or 1/2" OSB. Also,
any company replacing wood should set the old wood off to the side, so
there is no question about how much was used. Don't let anyone piece meal
in plywood, like you say 1x3 area. Use the entire sheet. Anything about
plywood clips?

I'd want specified length of nails, believe it or not, it's a way to cut
costs. Also, for any hip/ridge cap, being a laminated covering, I'd want
the correct cap. I've seen enough people buy 3 tab 20 year, and cap a 40 yr
shingle.

Company C specified CDX 1/2". All companies want to use 1-1/2" nails.
Nothing about plywood clips, whatever they are.

Aside from everything, prices sure are high in your area.

Welcome to Noo Joisey.

On 7/23/2012 8:29 AM, mark wrote:
Ya know, if you figure the hourly rate, these guys are making 200-300/hr
for basically driving in a few 1000 nails, approx 9,000 in your case, and
tossing old shingles in a dumpster. Ridge vents, crickets, valleys etc
require some special knowledge and skills but with a little research those
can be installed properly. The critical issue with roofing is weather and
therefore timing. If you can remove and dry-in one side or both with some
durable underlayment (2-3x the cost of tar paper), you can take all summer
to install the new shingles. Heck, you could even buy a compressor, nail
gun and still be $1,000's ahead.

If you think it is too demanding physically hire a young helper who is
willing to work for a FAIR wage - craigslist, local trade schools etc.
I did my 25 sq roof with 2 valleys 3 yrs ago for under $2000 including a
helper I paid $400 for 20 hrs work. Got lucky with the 35 yr arch shingles
on clearance for $40/sq

Of course, this is all assuming you have a low slope, simple roof as most
ranch style houses do.


And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

I don't know what you mean by rooftop delivery.


Interesting to note that company C said you didn't need a new roof but
you are still going ahead?

The most recent roof was installed in 1997. But I'm uncomfortable about
the soft spot and the raindrops that enter my fireplace chimney, despite
having a chimney cap. I can lay a garden hose near the chimney and water
will eventually enter. I've painted multiple layers of roofing tar
around all three sides of the chimney, and for a while no water entered
during heavy rains. Recently, it started again.

I suppose I could have the roof repaired in the area around the chimney.
Color match probably won't be perfect.

R1

Rebel1 wrote:


Company C specified CDX 1/2". All companies want to use 1-1/2" nails.
Nothing about plywood clips, whatever they are.


See he

http://www.tecotested.com/techtips/pdf/tt_edgeclips

Rebel1 wrot

And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

I don't know what you mean by rooftop delivery.


Rooftop delivery is when they bring a truck with a conveyor belt or crane
and place the bundles of shingles and other material right up on the roof.

One roofer who gave me an estimate was almost 2x the other guys. Even his
plywood was ridiculously more than everyone else's. When I asked him why
his prices for just about everything was so more than everyone else's, his
answer was that his overhead was much higher.

He pulled out his smart phone and started showing me pictures of all of his
trucks and a fancy lift for getting material on the roof and other stuff.

When I asked him if my roof was going to be installed better or last longer
because of all his fancy equipment, he sort of stuttered out a "Well, no."

When I told him I couldn't think of a reason why I would want to pay extra
for the same job just to help him pay for his fancy equipment, he packed up
his pictures and left.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 00:37:42 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Rebel1 wrot

And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

I don't know what you mean by rooftop delivery.


Rooftop delivery is when they bring a truck with a conveyor belt or crane
and place the bundles of shingles and other material right up on the roof.

One roofer who gave me an estimate was almost 2x the other guys. Even his
plywood was ridiculously more than everyone else's. When I asked him why
his prices for just about everything was so more than everyone else's, his
answer was that his overhead was much higher.

He pulled out his smart phone and started showing me pictures of all of his
trucks and a fancy lift for getting material on the roof and other stuff.

When I asked him if my roof was going to be installed better or last longer
because of all his fancy equipment, he sort of stuttered out a "Well, no."

When I told him I couldn't think of a reason why I would want to pay extra
for the same job just to help him pay for his fancy equipment, he packed up
his pictures and left.

That's really odd. Many (most?) building supply houses will deliver to the
roof for a small fee. Why in hell would a roofer want his own equipment?

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:27:49 -0400, "
wrote:




When I told him I couldn't think of a reason why I would want to pay extra
for the same job just to help him pay for his fancy equipment, he packed up
his pictures and left.

That's really odd. Many (most?) building supply houses will deliver to the
roof for a small fee. Why in hell would a roofer want his own equipment?

I can see a big operation that does commercial and industrial jobs
justifying it. Buy in bulk and better control at the job site.

Typical house roofer? Not so much.

" wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 00:37:42 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Rebel1 wrot

And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

I don't know what you mean by rooftop delivery.


Rooftop delivery is when they bring a truck with a conveyor belt or crane
and place the bundles of shingles and other material right up on the roof.

One roofer who gave me an estimate was almost 2x the other guys. Even his
plywood was ridiculously more than everyone else's. When I asked him why
his prices for just about everything was so more than everyone else's, his
answer was that his overhead was much higher.

He pulled out his smart phone and started showing me pictures of all of his
trucks and a fancy lift for getting material on the roof and other stuff.

When I asked him if my roof was going to be installed better or last longer
because of all his fancy equipment, he sort of stuttered out a "Well, no."

When I told him I couldn't think of a reason why I would want to pay extra
for the same job just to help him pay for his fancy equipment, he packed up
his pictures and left.

That's really odd. Many (most?) building supply houses will deliver to the
roof for a small fee. Why in hell would a roofer want his own equipment?

He showed me a picture of one of these...

http://www.genielift.com/en/products...ifts/index.htm

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 03:41:56 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

" wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 00:37:42 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Rebel1 wrot

And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

I don't know what you mean by rooftop delivery.


Rooftop delivery is when they bring a truck with a conveyor belt or crane
and place the bundles of shingles and other material right up on the roof.

One roofer who gave me an estimate was almost 2x the other guys. Even his
plywood was ridiculously more than everyone else's. When I asked him why
his prices for just about everything was so more than everyone else's, his
answer was that his overhead was much higher.

He pulled out his smart phone and started showing me pictures of all of his
trucks and a fancy lift for getting material on the roof and other stuff.

When I asked him if my roof was going to be installed better or last longer
because of all his fancy equipment, he sort of stuttered out a "Well, no."

When I told him I couldn't think of a reason why I would want to pay extra
for the same job just to help him pay for his fancy equipment, he packed up
his pictures and left.

That's really odd. Many (most?) building supply houses will deliver to the
roof for a small fee. Why in hell would a roofer want his own equipment?

He showed me a picture of one of these...

http://www.genielift.com/en/products...ifts/index.htm

Looks like a toy he's trying to justify with a business. That's not even the
right tool for the job.

" wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 03:41:56 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

" wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 00:37:42 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Rebel1 wrot

And don't even think about not getting rooftop delivery.

I don't know what you mean by rooftop delivery.


Rooftop delivery is when they bring a truck with a conveyor belt or crane
and place the bundles of shingles and other material right up on the roof.

One roofer who gave me an estimate was almost 2x the other guys. Even his
plywood was ridiculously more than everyone else's. When I asked him why
his prices for just about everything was so more than everyone else's, his
answer was that his overhead was much higher.

He pulled out his smart phone and started showing me pictures of all of his
trucks and a fancy lift for getting material on the roof and other stuff.

When I asked him if my roof was going to be installed better or last longer
because of all his fancy equipment, he sort of stuttered out a "Well, no."

When I told him I couldn't think of a reason why I would want to pay extra
for the same job just to help him pay for his fancy equipment, he packed up
his pictures and left.

That's really odd. Many (most?) building supply houses will deliver to the
roof for a small fee. Why in hell would a roofer want his own equipment?

He showed me a picture of one of these...

http://www.genielift.com/en/products...ifts/index.htm

Looks like a toy he's trying to justify with a business. That's not even the
right tool for the job.

Maybe it wasn't exactly a scissor lift, but it was definitely a rolling
machine with a lift.

In any case, it was stupid of him to try and justify his higher prices by
showing me equipment that even he admitted won't make my roof any better.

For what it's worth, the family owned company has been in business in my
area for well over 30 years, so lots of people must think that their higher
prices are worth it. Not me.

I have my own small business servicing office machines, my prices are low because my overhead is low

I charge 100 bucks a hour, for time actually on job.....

GBC my largest cometitor charges $317.00 for the first hour within 25 miles of pittsburgh...

Here's the proposal:

================================================== ========================

Job Description: 130 MPH Wind Rated Roof Shingles.

1. Remove existing layers of roof shingles on entire roof section.

2. Install F41/2 metal edging into all gutter edges.

3. Install GAF Weather Watch ice shield into gutter edges up roof three
feet, roof valleys, roof flashings.

4. Apply GAF Shingle Mate roof underlayment to expose sheathing.

5. Install GAF Pro Starter into all gutters and rake edges.

6. Reshingle roof using self sealing class A fiberglass roof shingle,
ASTMD3462 compliant, applied with 1 ½” roofing nails – six nails per
shingle. GAF Lifetime Timberline HD

7. Replace all existing vent pipe flanges with new aluminum flanges and
seal.

8. Install a perma-boot vent pipe flange counter flashing over new
aluminum vent pipe flange.

9. Frame a chimney cricket behind existing addition roof chimney area.
Re-flash existing chimney. Flashing color to be determined with shingle
color chosen.

10. Re-nail and reseal all other existing flashings accordingly.

11. Install GAF TImbertex Hip and Ridge Capping System to all roof peaks.

12. Clean and tighten all gutters and leader pipes.

13. Re-move all job-related debris. Either dumpster drop-off in driveway
or A-TOP to self haul debris.

NOTE: Township building permit will be filed by A-Top. Permit fee not
included.
NOTE: Any plywood that needs to be replaced will be an additional cost,
CDX ½” $50.00 per sheet.
NOTE: There is a 10 year warranty on labor; The non pro-rated period of
50 years on material, with the GAF Smart Choice System Plus Warranty.
NOTE: WE ARE MASTER ELITE CERTIFIED BY GAF CORPORATION.
We propose to hereby furnish material and labor. Complete in accordance
with specifications above.
Employees are insured with Workers Comp and General Liability Insurance.
A 2% service charge for unpaid balances over 30 days.
There is a $30 Fee for returned checks. A 3% fee will be charged for
all payments made by credit card. Note: This proposal may be
withdrawn by us if not accepted within 35 days. Estimates are no charge
for 1st visit & one revision, insurance revisions/break downs not
included. A-Top reserves the right to charge $25 for each estimate
beyond the 1st revision. This will be deducted from project total at
time of commitment. A-Top will not communicate with insurance companies
for any project until deposit and commitment is received from property
owner. A-Top reserves the right to charge for any insurance claim
resolutions at a cost of $75. This will be deducted from project total
at time of commitment.

================================================== ====================

As a result of various replies to my original post, I sent
estimator/owner this message:

================================================== ====================

These statements appears in your proposal:

NOTE: There is a 10 year warranty on labor; (It does not state if there
is or is not proration on labor)
The non pro-rated period of 50 years on material, with the GAF Smart
Choice System Plus Warranty. (I don't understand this; it is
grammatically wrong.)

Also, what is your response to adding the following statements to the
proposal?

14. Any work not completed on day the project starts shall be completed
the following day, weather permitting.

15. All workers shall be A-Top employees covered by Workers Comp and
General Liability Insurance.

16. Installation of new roof shall comply with
http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residenti...46-2569-v6.pdf

================================================== =================

His reply:

Ray-

1. The Warranty is call GAF Weather Stopper Systems Plus Ltd. Warranty.

2. The labor warranty is not prorated.

3. A-Top has been in business right here in Manalapan for the past 26
years. We have NEVER started a job, and left a site, our policy has
always been to finish 1 job before starting another.

4. We can provide you with a Certificate of Insurance stating our
coverage which includes liability and workers Comp.

5. Let me make this clear A-Top has successfully install THOUSANDS of
roofs locally in the surrounding towns. If we were not installing roofs
correctly we would not have a GAF Master Elite License. We are factory
trained and continue to further our installation quality by
participating with GAF on all/any available educating programs offered
towards keeping our quality up to date and at its Best….

================================================== ==================

While he responded to items 14 and 15, he didn't agree to add them to
the proposal/contract.

I dropped in unannounced to the company's office. The owner was not
there. I asked the clerk for three references. Said she couldn't do that
because of some nonsense about privacy laws. I said show me the book,
and I will randomly pick out names that you can call for permission to
have the company release the phone numbers to me. Refused, again citing
same nonsense about privacy laws.

So while the company is the lowest bidder, and the only one that
inspected the roof and honestly stated that it didn't need replacement,
I'm turned off because it didn't send me the quote until two days past
the promised one, won't add clauses 14 and 15 to the contract, and won't
give me references (maybe the owner would give them to me).

R1

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 16:24:25 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

Here's the proposal:

================================================= =========================

Job Description: 130 MPH Wind Rated Roof Shingles.

1. Remove existing layers of roof shingles on entire roof section.

2. Install F41/2 metal edging into all gutter edges.

3. Install GAF Weather Watch ice shield into gutter edges up roof three
feet, roof valleys, roof flashings.

4. Apply GAF Shingle Mate roof underlayment to expose sheathing.

5. Install GAF Pro Starter into all gutters and rake edges.

6. Reshingle roof using self sealing class A fiberglass roof shingle,
ASTMD3462 compliant, applied with 1 ½” roofing nails – six nails per
shingle. GAF Lifetime Timberline HD

7. Replace all existing vent pipe flanges with new aluminum flanges and
seal.

8. Install a perma-boot vent pipe flange counter flashing over new
aluminum vent pipe flange.

9. Frame a chimney cricket behind existing addition roof chimney area.
Re-flash existing chimney. Flashing color to be determined with shingle
color chosen.

10. Re-nail and reseal all other existing flashings accordingly.

11. Install GAF TImbertex Hip and Ridge Capping System to all roof peaks.

12. Clean and tighten all gutters and leader pipes.

13. Re-move all job-related debris. Either dumpster drop-off in driveway
or A-TOP to self haul debris.

NOTE: Township building permit will be filed by A-Top. Permit fee not
included.
NOTE: Any plywood that needs to be replaced will be an additional cost,
CDX ½” $50.00 per sheet.
NOTE: There is a 10 year warranty on labor; The non pro-rated period of
50 years on material, with the GAF Smart Choice System Plus Warranty.
NOTE: WE ARE MASTER ELITE CERTIFIED BY GAF CORPORATION.
We propose to hereby furnish material and labor. Complete in accordance
with specifications above.
Employees are insured with Workers Comp and General Liability Insurance.
A 2% service charge for unpaid balances over 30 days.
There is a $30 Fee for returned checks. A 3% fee will be charged for
all payments made by credit card. Note: This proposal may be
withdrawn by us if not accepted within 35 days. Estimates are no charge
for 1st visit & one revision, insurance revisions/break downs not
included. A-Top reserves the right to charge $25 for each estimate
beyond the 1st revision. This will be deducted from project total at
time of commitment. A-Top will not communicate with insurance companies
for any project until deposit and commitment is received from property
owner. A-Top reserves the right to charge for any insurance claim
resolutions at a cost of $75. This will be deducted from project total
at time of commitment.

================================================= =====================

As a result of various replies to my original post, I sent
estimator/owner this message:

================================================= =====================

These statements appears in your proposal:

NOTE: There is a 10 year warranty on labor; (It does not state if there
is or is not proration on labor)
The non pro-rated period of 50 years on material, with the GAF Smart
Choice System Plus Warranty. (I don't understand this; it is
grammatically wrong.)

Also, what is your response to adding the following statements to the
proposal?

14. Any work not completed on day the project starts shall be completed
the following day, weather permitting.

15. All workers shall be A-Top employees covered by Workers Comp and
General Liability Insurance.

16. Installation of new roof shall comply with
http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residenti...46-2569-v6.pdf

================================================= ==================

His reply:

Ray-

1. The Warranty is call GAF Weather Stopper Systems Plus Ltd. Warranty.

2. The labor warranty is not prorated.

3. A-Top has been in business right here in Manalapan for the past 26
years. We have NEVER started a job, and left a site, our policy has
always been to finish 1 job before starting another.

4. We can provide you with a Certificate of Insurance stating our
coverage which includes liability and workers Comp.

5. Let me make this clear A-Top has successfully install THOUSANDS of
roofs locally in the surrounding towns. If we were not installing roofs
correctly we would not have a GAF Master Elite License. We are factory
trained and continue to further our installation quality by
participating with GAF on all/any available educating programs offered
towards keeping our quality up to date and at its Best….

================================================= ===================

While he responded to items 14 and 15, he didn't agree to add them to
the proposal/contract.

I dropped in unannounced to the company's office. The owner was not
there. I asked the clerk for three references. Said she couldn't do that
because of some nonsense about privacy laws. I said show me the book,
and I will randomly pick out names that you can call for permission to
have the company release the phone numbers to me. Refused, again citing
same nonsense about privacy laws.

So while the company is the lowest bidder, and the only one that
inspected the roof and honestly stated that it didn't need replacement,
I'm turned off because it didn't send me the quote until two days past
the promised one, won't add clauses 14 and 15 to the contract, and won't
give me references (maybe the owner would give them to me).

R1






I agree with you about the references. I live in Texas and I had no
problem getting references and had someone around the block call me as
a reference for their roofer. Of course maybe the laws are different
in each state, I don't know.

"Rebel1" wrote in message
...
Here's the proposal:

================================================== ========================

Job Description: 130 MPH Wind Rated Roof Shingles.

1. Remove existing layers of roof shingles on entire roof section.

2. Install F41/2 metal edging into all gutter edges.

3. Install GAF Weather Watch ice shield into gutter edges up roof three
feet, roof valleys, roof flashings.

4. Apply GAF Shingle Mate roof underlayment to expose sheathing.

5. Install GAF Pro Starter into all gutters and rake edges.

6. Reshingle roof using self sealing class A fiberglass roof shingle,
ASTMD3462 compliant, applied with 1 ½” roofing nails – six nails per
shingle. GAF Lifetime Timberline HD

7. Replace all existing vent pipe flanges with new aluminum flanges and
seal.

8. Install a perma-boot vent pipe flange counter flashing over new
aluminum vent pipe flange.

9. Frame a chimney cricket behind existing addition roof chimney area.
Re-flash existing chimney. Flashing color to be determined with shingle
color chosen.

10. Re-nail and reseal all other existing flashings accordingly.

11. Install GAF TImbertex Hip and Ridge Capping System to all roof peaks.

12. Clean and tighten all gutters and leader pipes.

13. Re-move all job-related debris. Either dumpster drop-off in driveway
or A-TOP to self haul debris.

NOTE: Township building permit will be filed by A-Top. Permit fee not
included.
NOTE: Any plywood that needs to be replaced will be an additional cost,
CDX ½” $50.00 per sheet.
NOTE: There is a 10 year warranty on labor; The non pro-rated period of
50 years on material, with the GAF Smart Choice System Plus Warranty.
NOTE: WE ARE MASTER ELITE CERTIFIED BY GAF CORPORATION.
We propose to hereby furnish material and labor. Complete in accordance
with specifications above.
Employees are insured with Workers Comp and General Liability Insurance. A
2% service charge for unpaid balances over 30 days.
There is a $30 Fee for returned checks. A 3% fee will be charged for all
payments made by credit card. Note: This proposal may be withdrawn by
us if not accepted within 35 days. Estimates are no charge for 1st visit &
one revision, insurance revisions/break downs not included. A-Top
reserves the right to charge $25 for each estimate beyond the 1st
revision. This will be deducted from project total at time of commitment.
A-Top will not communicate with insurance companies for any project until
deposit and commitment is received from property owner. A-Top reserves
the right to charge for any insurance claim resolutions at a cost of $75.
This will be deducted from project total at time of commitment.

================================================== ====================

As a result of various replies to my original post, I sent estimator/owner
this message:

================================================== ====================

These statements appears in your proposal:

NOTE: There is a 10 year warranty on labor; (It does not state if there
is or is not proration on labor)
The non pro-rated period of 50 years on material, with the GAF Smart
Choice System Plus Warranty. (I don't understand this; it is grammatically
wrong.)

Also, what is your response to adding the following statements to the
proposal?

14. Any work not completed on day the project starts shall be completed
the following day, weather permitting.

15. All workers shall be A-Top employees covered by Workers Comp and
General Liability Insurance.

16. Installation of new roof shall comply with
http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residenti...46-2569-v6.pdf

================================================== =================

His reply:

Ray-

1. The Warranty is call GAF Weather Stopper Systems Plus Ltd. Warranty.

2. The labor warranty is not prorated.

3. A-Top has been in business right here in Manalapan for the past 26
years. We have NEVER started a job, and left a site, our policy has always
been to finish 1 job before starting another.

4. We can provide you with a Certificate of Insurance stating our coverage
which includes liability and workers Comp.

5. Let me make this clear A-Top has successfully install THOUSANDS of
roofs locally in the surrounding towns. If we were not installing roofs
correctly we would not have a GAF Master Elite License. We are factory
trained and continue to further our installation quality by participating
with GAF on all/any available educating programs offered towards keeping
our quality up to date and at its Best….

================================================== ==================

While he responded to items 14 and 15, he didn't agree to add them to the
proposal/contract.

I dropped in unannounced to the company's office. The owner was not there.
I asked the clerk for three references. Said she couldn't do that because
of some nonsense about privacy laws. I said show me the book, and I will
randomly pick out names that you can call for permission to have the
company release the phone numbers to me. Refused, again citing same
nonsense about privacy laws.

So while the company is the lowest bidder, and the only one that inspected
the roof and honestly stated that it didn't need replacement, I'm turned
off because it didn't send me the quote until two days past the promised
one, won't add clauses 14 and 15 to the contract, and won't give me
references (maybe the owner would give them to me).

R1

My impression is that they provided a very thorough and specific written
estimate, and they (in my opinion) patiently responded to the additional
questions you posed etc. Their website indicates that they have been in
business a long time at the same location, and the website provides a lot of
information about them. You obtained several estimates and did a very
thorough job in researching all of the details of this job. They are the
only company that said that you don't necessarily need a new roof. And,
somehow, they ended up bidding the lowest price for the job of the 3
estimates that you received -- even after one of the revised their estimate
downward for you.

I think there is a limit to how much one can expect from any contractor in
terms of specifying and meeting each and every detail of the job, scope of
work, assurances, promises, guarantees, etc. To me, the estimate they
provided, the follow-up answers that they provided to you, the fact that
they have been in business for such a long time at the same location, and
the added benefit that they ended up providing you with the lowest price all
add up to one conclusion -- take them up on their offer and have them do the
work.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 16:24:25 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:





So while the company is the lowest bidder, and the only one that
inspected the roof and honestly stated that it didn't need replacement,
I'm turned off because it didn't send me the quote until two days past
the promised one, won't add clauses 14 and 15 to the contract, and won't
give me references (maybe the owner would give them to me).

R1

His lawyer wrote the contract and he is probably advised not to make
changes. Reputation counts more that the paper anyway.

Two days late with a proposal? If that is the worst thing to complain
about, you did well.

I don't know about privacy laws in your state. I do know that without
my permission, I don't want people calling me about a contractor.

If I was you, I'd accept it and move ahead. If I was the contractor,
upon your next request for special handling, I'd tell you to F off and
spend more money elsewhere.

Rebel1 wrote:


....Proposal Snipped...


I dropped in unannounced to the company's office. The owner was not
there. I asked the clerk for three references. Said she couldn't do that
because of some nonsense about privacy laws. I said show me the book, and
I will randomly pick out names that you can call for permission to have
the company release the phone numbers to me. Refused, again citing same
nonsense about privacy laws.

So while the company is the lowest bidder, and the only one that
inspected the roof and honestly stated that it didn't need replacement,
I'm turned off because it didn't send me the quote until two days past
the promised one, won't add clauses 14 and 15 to the contract, and won't
give me references (maybe the owner would give them to me).

R1

Let me make sure I understand the situation regarding references.

Are you saying that at this point they are they are refusing to supply any
references?

I know that a few others have suggested that you are being unreasonable
with your requests, but I'd be really concerned with any contractor that
played the privacy card with regards to references. You would think that if
they are really as good as they say they are, they'd be proud to give you
the names of references.

You'd think that they would have a few customers who would have given them
permission to use them as references and you'd think that the office staff
would either have that list or would have contacted someone who did.

On 7/25/2012 8:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:


Company C specified CDX 1/2". All companies want to use 1-1/2" nails.
Nothing about plywood clips, whatever they are.


See he

http://www.tecotested.com/techtips/pdf/tt_edgeclips

Thanks for the link.

R1

On 7/27/2012 2:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:


...Proposal Snipped...


I dropped in unannounced to the company's office. The owner was not
there. I asked the clerk for three references. Said she couldn't do that
because of some nonsense about privacy laws. I said show me the book, and
I will randomly pick out names that you can call for permission to have
the company release the phone numbers to me. Refused, again citing same
nonsense about privacy laws.

So while the company is the lowest bidder, and the only one that
inspected the roof and honestly stated that it didn't need replacement,
I'm turned off because it didn't send me the quote until two days past
the promised one, won't add clauses 14 and 15 to the contract, and won't
give me references (maybe the owner would give them to me).

R1

Let me make sure I understand the situation regarding references.

Are you saying that at this point they are they are refusing to supply any
references?

I know that a few others have suggested that you are being unreasonable
with your requests, but I'd be really concerned with any contractor that
played the privacy card with regards to references. You would think that if
they are really as good as they say they are, they'd be proud to give you
the names of references.

You'd think that they would have a few customers who would have given them
permission to use them as references and you'd think that the office staff
would either have that list or would have contacted someone who did.

Remember that I was talking to a low-level clerk. I'm sure (hope) the
owner would have been more accommodating.

Rebel1 wrote:
On 7/27/2012 2:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:

....snip...


You'd think that they would have a few customers who would have given them
permission to use them as references and you'd think that the office staff
would either have that list or would have contacted someone who did.

Remember that I was talking to a low-level clerk. I'm sure (hope) the
owner would have been more accommodating.

The problem is that this "low level clerk" is the face of the company when
she's the only one in the office.

You would think that she knows the company's rules about references. If
they owner tells you something different, you should offer some
constructive criticism about the office staff.

There's a potential for loss of business if she is giving out bad
information. Suppose you chose to walk because she said that they don't
give out references when in fact they do? That's not good for business.