I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??


Hi,
What if you remove fuel tank cap when trying start?
Or spray cold water around gas lines, tank and carb?

wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??


Hi,
What if you remove fuel tank cap when trying to start?
Or spray cold water around gas lines, tank and carb?

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:47:14 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see a fuel filter in the parts list. Does it have a fuel filter?

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:47:14 -0400, wrote:

I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

I would consider looking at electrical connections at the switch,
starter, solenoid, battery and ground. Clean and tighten.

Maybe check that the blade to tight.

Just "an idea".

On 6/17/2012 11:47 AM, wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

First guess--vapor lock.

Think Tony's thinking same thing.

If you let it cool w/o doing anything, it will then start just fine
again, right?

Look into adding some reflective tape or a heat shield around the fuel
line between hot engine parts and the line...

--

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:13:23 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??


Hi,
What if you remove fuel tank cap when trying start?
Or spray cold water around gas lines, tank and carb?

Thanks for your reply. Removing the gas cap didn't help.
I haven't tried cooling the area you mentioned.

I can try that but not sure its an issue as the engine starts with the
key immediately after pulling once on the cord.

Pulling once on the cord before turning the key is doing something to
resolve the issue.

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:47:14 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see a fuel filter in the parts list. Does it have a fuel filter?


Not that I'm aware of.

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:01:26 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/17/2012 11:47 AM, wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

First guess--vapor lock.

Think Tony's thinking same thing.

If you let it cool w/o doing anything, it will then start just fine
again, right?

Look into adding some reflective tape or a heat shield around the fuel
line between hot engine parts and the line...


I haven't tried just letting it cool or spraying the areas mentioned.
I'll do that tomorrow and let you know.

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.

I can let that starter motor run for at least 5 seconds and it won't
start, and repeat that many times to no avail, but when I just give
one pull on the cord (without starting) the electric start will then
work after only one or two revs.

On 6/17/12 2:32 PM, wrote:
What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.

Speed?

I can let that starter motor run for at least 5 seconds and it won't
start, and repeat that many times to no avail, but when I just give
one pull on the cord (without starting) the electric start will then
work after only one or two revs.

On 6/17/2012 2:32 PM, wrote:
....

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ??...

My bet is the slow manual pull doesn't cause accelerator pump to actuate
and lets vapor pressure drop whereas the high-speed (relatively)
cranking doesn't (enough, anyway).

The cooling test will be pretty conclusive whether the supposition is
right or not.

There's always a possibility there's some other heat-related issue but
that it acts as it does and you've replaced parts that are most likely
it seems a lower probability at least until the alternative is
eliminated from consideration.

--

On Jun 17, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:01:26 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/17/2012 11:47 AM, wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

First guess--vapor lock.

Think Tony's thinking same thing.

If you let it cool w/o doing anything, it will then start just fine
again, right?

Look into adding some reflective tape or a heat shield around the fuel
line between hot engine parts and the line...

I haven't tried just letting it cool or spraying the areas mentioned.
I'll do that tomorrow and let you know.

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? *The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.

I can let that starter motor run for at least 5 seconds and it won't
start, and repeat that many times to no avail, but when I just give
one pull on the cord (without starting) the electric start will then
work after only one or two revs.

check for spark at plug. pll plug wire off in broke condition and see
if another plug has a spark.

if it sparks good in broke condition add some gas to the plug hole and
try starting mower.

theres just 3 possibilties, no spark, no compression, or no fuel.

along with a 4th possible.

the starter is going bad and cranks the engine too slow, but pulling
cord frees things up a bit allowing it to start with key.

if the battery is 12 volts try starting it in the broke condition with
a charger attached

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

theres just 3 possibilties, no spark, no compression, or no fuel.


Um, and engine will run with weak compression. The three needs are
spark, fuel and oxygen. Ever see a car smoking to beat the band?

along with a 4th possible.

the starter is going bad and cranks the engine too slow, but pulling
cord frees things up a bit allowing it to start with key.

Old starters would "drag" brass armature busing's were worn

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:15:28 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

theres just 3 possibilties, no spark, no compression, or no fuel.


Um, and engine will run with weak compression. The three needs are
spark, fuel and oxygen. Ever see a car smoking to beat the band?

along with a 4th possible.

the starter is going bad and cranks the engine too slow, but pulling
cord frees things up a bit allowing it to start with key.

Old starters would "drag" brass armature busing's were worn

Sent to fast. Worn brass bushings would cause the starter to bind and
drag, heating the starter (high amp draw). Replacing the armature
bushings fixed it in the day or a new starter.

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 12:15:51 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:47:14 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

Please correct me if I�m wrong but I don�t see a fuel filter in the parts list. Does it have a fuel filter?


Not that I'm aware of.

Especially since your lawnmower does not have a fuel filter, I suspect that the carburetor/metering device/fuel discharge orifice is partially blocked.. That would be the next place that the gasoline goes to after leaving the fuel tank but before reaching the combustion chamber where the spark plug is. My guess is that when the lawn mower is running there is enough pressure to keep the fuel flowing as when you pull the cord slowly you are causing enough suction to overcome the blockage. You will need to open the location where the fuel metering orifice is and clear the blockage. It would also be a good idea to install a fuel filter

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31oOjgniCkL.jpg

to the fuel line. Even if this is not the reason why you are having the problem, I guarantee that without a fuel filter you will have this problem in the future.

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:14:03 -0400, wrote:


On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:13:23 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??


Hi,
What if you remove fuel tank cap when trying start?
Or spray cold water around gas lines, tank and carb?

Thanks for your reply. Removing the gas cap didn't help.
I haven't tried cooling the area you mentioned.

I can try that but not sure its an issue as the engine starts with the
key immediately after pulling once on the cord.

Pulling once on the cord before turning the key is doing something to
resolve the issue.

Let me make sure I understand this, if instead of pulling easily on
the cord you simply try and use the electric start, which also turns
the engine in the same direction, that won't make it start....

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 08:02:53 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:14:03 -0400, wrote:


On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:13:23 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??


Hi,
What if you remove fuel tank cap when trying start?
Or spray cold water around gas lines, tank and carb?

Thanks for your reply. Removing the gas cap didn't help.
I haven't tried cooling the area you mentioned.

I can try that but not sure its an issue as the engine starts with the
key immediately after pulling once on the cord.

Pulling once on the cord before turning the key is doing something to
resolve the issue.

Let me make sure I understand this, if instead of pulling easily on
the cord you simply try and use the electric start, which also turns
the engine in the same direction, that won't make it start....

Let me try to clarify - hopefully I will do a better job this time.

Using the cord would eventually start the mower when hot, but my wife
uses the mower and does not want to pull the cord to make it run.
That's why I bought the electric start.

As a workaround, she will pull the cord gently if that will allow her
to start it with the key. According to her, pulling the cord in that
manner requires no effort, where trying to pull it to make it start
does, especially if she has to pull it a few times. I am not about to
argue, since she does cut the lawn.

In the morning, with a cold start and fully charged battery, and after
pressing the primer bulb - slowly - three times, the mower starts
immediately with the key.

I did a test this morn - per tony & dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

The following was done: Cleaned Carburetor, Replaced Carb Bowl Gasket
and Washer, Replaced Carb Seat, Needle and checked & adjusted Float,
Replaced Magneto Assbly (Tecumseh "Lamination") & Adjusted Gap,
Repalced Spark Plug, Cleaned Engine Fins & Externals thoroughly,
Dumped Gas, Cleaned Tank & added new Gas, Changed Oil.

After all of the above, the engine ran much better (no missing), but
did not change the original Hot Start w/Key problem.

WTF!...broke condition?

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:00:07 -0400, wrote:

The following was done: Cleaned Carburetor, Replaced Carb Bowl Gasket
and Washer, Replaced Carb Seat, Needle and checked & adjusted Float,
Replaced Magneto Assbly (Tecumseh "Lamination") & Adjusted Gap,
Repalced Spark Plug, Cleaned Engine Fins & Externals thoroughly,
Dumped Gas, Cleaned Tank & added new Gas, Changed Oil.

After all of the above, the engine ran much better (no missing), but
did not change the original Hot Start w/Key problem.

Options:

1) Check / clean / tighten all electrical connections.

2) Test the starter for "drag / binding" because it heats up in use.

3) Shotgun - 00 Buckshot.

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:32:36 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.


Not sure that's the case. When you pull very slowly, there is no resistance. You are clearly not pulling against compression. I'm not sure what the mechanism is, but some speed is required to lock up and spin the engine. Is there a centrifugal clutch, maybe?

I know that doesn't help with the diagnosis, but it might spell the difference between the rope pull and the key start.

On 6/18/2012 11:00 AM, wrote:
....

I did a test this morn - per tony& dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

The following was done: Cleaned Carburetor, Replaced Carb Bowl Gasket
and Washer, Replaced Carb Seat, Needle and checked& adjusted Float,
Replaced Magneto Assbly (Tecumseh "Lamination")& Adjusted Gap,
Repalced Spark Plug, Cleaned Engine Fins& Externals thoroughly,
Dumped Gas, Cleaned Tank& added new Gas, Changed Oil.

After all of the above, the engine ran much better (no missing), but
did not change the original Hot Start w/Key problem.

I don't see the real suggested test(s)...

a) after hot and doesn't start, before the pull test cool down the carb
area (spray w/ hose will work) and then try the starter, or

b) let it really cool off (by itself it'll take perhaps as long as an
hour if really warm) w/o doing anything else.

I forget about the stupid prime buttons--nothing I have is that new if
that small

Is it being used when trying to start hot? If so, possibly it's
flooding it out instead of a vapor lock.

--

On 6/18/2012 2:22 PM, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:32:36 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.


Not sure that's the case. When you pull very slowly, there is no
resistance. You are clearly not pulling against compression. I'm not
sure what the mechanism is, but some speed is required to lock up
andspin the engine. Is there a centrifugal clutch, maybe?

I know that doesn't help with the diagnosis, but it might spell the
difference between the rope pull and the key start.

When pull very slowly valves don't close rapidly enough to build much
compression so don't notice it (much). That also gives somewhere for
the vapor to go if it is vapor lock.

--

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:01:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/18/2012 2:22 PM, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:32:36 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.


Not sure that's the case. When you pull very slowly, there is no
resistance. You are clearly not pulling against compression. I'm not
sure what the mechanism is, but some speed is required to lock up
andspin the engine. Is there a centrifugal clutch, maybe?

I know that doesn't help with the diagnosis, but it might spell the
difference between the rope pull and the key start.

When pull very slowly valves don't close rapidly enough to build much
compression so don't notice it (much). That also gives somewhere for
the vapor to go if it is vapor lock.
I don't THINK you have a real case of vapour lock, since there is no
fuel pump. Fuel boiling out of the carb and "dry flooding" the engine
is a possibility (mixture too rich to light) and turning the engine
through slowly by hand COULD be moving enough air through without
drawing more fuel like it would with a fast enough crank to try to
start the engine.

Pulling the starter rope turns a "sprague clutch" that catches the
flywheel (using different mechanisms on different engine - ball
bearings in a race on some old Briggs engines, steel tabs on some
others - and likely several I've either forgotten or never seen) which
turns the motor. MOST small engines in the last 40 years have some
sort od "compession release" which either holds a valve open or closed
below a certain speed to allow the engine to be spun up to starting
speed easily. When up to speed the compression release goes off,
allowing full compression, which starts the engine.

The ONLY thing I can see hand cranking the engine slowly
acvcomplishing is diluting the charge in the intake and cyl by moving
air through the system.

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:01:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/18/2012 2:22 PM, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:32:36 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.


Not sure that's the case. When you pull very slowly, there is no
resistance. You are clearly not pulling against compression. I'm not
sure what the mechanism is, but some speed is required to lock up
andspin the engine. Is there a centrifugal clutch, maybe?

I know that doesn't help with the diagnosis, but it might spell the
difference between the rope pull and the key start.

When pull very slowly valves don't close rapidly enough to build much
compression so don't notice it (much). That also gives somewhere for
the vapor to go if it is vapor lock.
One other thing to try, if you are reasonably handy, is to hold the
throttle butterfly wide open when cranking with the starter to see if
it starts then. Be ready to release control to the governor as soon as
it starts. If this s tarts the engine, it IS flooding. Perculation of
the gas in the carb will do this - known as a "dry flood" - and a
leaky float valve or excessively high float level can cause a "wet
flood" - which is harder to clear and will give you a wet spark plug
if you pull it to check when it is in "no start mode"

On 6/18/2012 5:23 PM, wrote:
....

I don't THINK you have a real case of vapour lock, since there is no
fuel pump. Fuel boiling out of the carb and "dry flooding" the engine
is a possibility (mixture too rich to light) and turning the engine
through slowly by hand COULD be moving enough air through without
drawing more fuel like it would with a fast enough crank to try to
start the engine.
....

Well, there is a fuel pump, it's the diaphragm/spring in the carb...

One I've spent today playing with...392/432 and 390 w/ pinhole in
diaphragm. That way it doesn't do too good...

But yes, if it is as I've suggested it is as you describe that's going
on--and the name seems as good as any for discussion purposes here.

I've seen it on one B&S and while it didn't have electric start to have
a symptom just as the OP's, cooling it down would work which is how I
came up w/ the foil and a heat shield idea that (pretty much) solved it.

--

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:04:39 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/18/2012 5:23 PM, wrote:
...

I don't THINK you have a real case of vapour lock, since there is no
fuel pump. Fuel boiling out of the carb and "dry flooding" the engine
is a possibility (mixture too rich to light) and turning the engine
through slowly by hand COULD be moving enough air through without
drawing more fuel like it would with a fast enough crank to try to
start the engine.
...

Well, there is a fuel pump, it's the diaphragm/spring in the carb...

One I've spent today playing with...392/432 and 390 w/ pinhole in
diaphragm. That way it doesn't do too good...

But yes, if it is as I've suggested it is as you describe that's going
on--and the name seems as good as any for discussion purposes here.

I've seen it on one B&S and while it didn't have electric start to have
a symptom just as the OP's, cooling it down would work which is how I
came up w/ the foil and a heat shield idea that (pretty much) solved it.
Except I BELIEVE this mower has a Tecumseh engine on it, which uses
a gravity feed float type carb with NO pump and NO diaphragm., And
therefore NO chance, technically, of a vapour lock.

see:
http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=t...-_3340012-0009

On Jun 18, 10:14*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:04:39 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/18/2012 5:23 PM, wrote:
...

* I don't THINK you have a real case of vapour lock, since there is no
fuel pump. Fuel boiling out of the carb and "dry flooding" the engine
is a possibility (mixture too rich to light) and turning the engine
through slowly by hand COULD be moving enough air through without
drawing more fuel like it would with a fast enough crank to try to
start the engine.
...

Well, there is a fuel pump, it's the diaphragm/spring in the carb...

One I've spent today playing with...392/432 and 390 w/ pinhole in
diaphragm. *That way it doesn't do too good...

But yes, if it is as I've suggested it is as you describe that's going
on--and the name seems as good as any for discussion purposes here.

I've seen it on one B&S and while it didn't have electric start to have
a symptom just as the OP's, cooling it down would work which is how I
came up w/ the foil and a heat shield idea that (pretty much) solved it.

* Except I BELIEVE this mower has a Tecumseh engine on it, which uses
a gravity feed float type carb with NO pump and NO diaphragm., And
therefore NO chance, technically, of a vapour lock.

see:http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=t...18%2C+22%22+Re...


KISS!! check for spark, check for compression, check for fue......

its one of these........

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:15:51 -0400, wrote:

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see a fuel filter in the parts
list. Does it have a fuel filter?


Not that I'm aware of.

There should be a dip tube in the gas tank, and there is sometimes a
filter on the bottom of it.

Here's another thing to try. If you have an old mower with a gas tank,
mount that tank on something next to your mower, run a gas line from
that tank to your carb. If it starts normally, you have a fuel tank or
line clog. If not, it's deeper in the engine.

Another thing, are you getting a spark when that starter is spinning?
They sell spark testers, or just take off the plug wire and hold a
screwdriver in the hole and 1/8 inch from any metal part of the engine.
You should see a spark. If you do, it's a gas problem. If not, it's
electrical.

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:00:07 -0400, wrote:


Let me try to clarify - hopefully I will do a better job this time.

Using the cord would eventually start the mower when hot, but my wife
uses the mower and does not want to pull the cord to make it run.
That's why I bought the electric start.

Maybe your wife is having an affair with the guy at the mower repair
shop, and she wants an excuse to get him over to the house

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:00:07 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 08:02:53 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:14:03 -0400, wrote:


On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:13:23 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



wrote:
I have a TORO "Recycler" Electric Start Mower, model 20018. The mower
starts fine - with the key - when cold. The Mower runs fine either hot
or cold.

After its run for a short time, it will no longer start with the key.
The battery is fine and the starter motor rotates the flywheel , but
its as if there is either no Gas or No Spark.

Here's the puzzling fix. If I pull the cord, slowly and easily,
without even trying to start it, it will then start with the key.

If its shut off, it will again be necessary to give the cord a short
and easy pull, before it will again start with the key.

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??


Hi,
What if you remove fuel tank cap when trying start?
Or spray cold water around gas lines, tank and carb?

Thanks for your reply. Removing the gas cap didn't help.
I haven't tried cooling the area you mentioned.

I can try that but not sure its an issue as the engine starts with the
key immediately after pulling once on the cord.

Pulling once on the cord before turning the key is doing something to
resolve the issue.

Let me make sure I understand this, if instead of pulling easily on
the cord you simply try and use the electric start, which also turns
the engine in the same direction, that won't make it start....

Let me try to clarify - hopefully I will do a better job this time.

Using the cord would eventually start the mower when hot, but my wife
uses the mower and does not want to pull the cord to make it run.
That's why I bought the electric start.

As a workaround, she will pull the cord gently if that will allow her
to start it with the key. According to her, pulling the cord in that
manner requires no effort, where trying to pull it to make it start
does, especially if she has to pull it a few times. I am not about to
argue, since she does cut the lawn.

In the morning, with a cold start and fully charged battery, and after
pressing the primer bulb - slowly - three times, the mower starts
immediately with the key.

I did a test this morn - per tony & dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

The following was done: Cleaned Carburetor, Replaced Carb Bowl Gasket
and Washer, Replaced Carb Seat, Needle and checked & adjusted Float,
Replaced Magneto Assbly (Tecumseh "Lamination") & Adjusted Gap,
Repalced Spark Plug, Cleaned Engine Fins & Externals thoroughly,
Dumped Gas, Cleaned Tank & added new Gas, Changed Oil.

After all of the above, the engine ran much better (no missing), but
did not change the original Hot Start w/Key problem.


Does this thing by any chance have a compression release system of
some sort on it to make it easy to pull start? If so, perhaps that's
sticking in the released position and when you pull the cord it resets
it. When it won't start with the electric starter does it turn over
REALLY fast compared to when it does start with the starter?

wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:01:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/18/2012 2:22 PM, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:32:36 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.


Not sure that's the case. When you pull very slowly, there is no
resistance. You are clearly not pulling against compression. I'm not
sure what the mechanism is, but some speed is required to lock up
andspin the engine. Is there a centrifugal clutch, maybe?

I know that doesn't help with the diagnosis, but it might spell the
difference between the rope pull and the key start.

When pull very slowly valves don't close rapidly enough to build much
compression so don't notice it (much). That also gives somewhere for
the vapor to go if it is vapor lock.
I don't THINK you have a real case of vapour lock, since there is no
fuel pump. Fuel boiling out of the carb and "dry flooding" the engine
is a possibility (mixture too rich to light) and turning the engine
through slowly by hand COULD be moving enough air through without
drawing more fuel like it would with a fast enough crank to try to
start the engine.

Pulling the starter rope turns a "sprague clutch" that catches the
flywheel (using different mechanisms on different engine - ball
bearings in a race on some old Briggs engines, steel tabs on some
others - and likely several I've either forgotten or never seen) which
turns the motor. MOST small engines in the last 40 years have some
sort od "compession release" which either holds a valve open or closed
below a certain speed to allow the engine to be spun up to starting
speed easily. When up to speed the compression release goes off,
allowing full compression, which starts the engine.

The ONLY thing I can see hand cranking the engine slowly
acvcomplishing is diluting the charge in the intake and cyl by moving
air through the system.

Hmmm,
If it is too ruch(flooding), could smell it. No?

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:58:11 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/18/2012 11:00 AM, wrote:
...

I did a test this morn - per tony& dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

The following was done: Cleaned Carburetor, Replaced Carb Bowl Gasket
and Washer, Replaced Carb Seat, Needle and checked& adjusted Float,
Replaced Magneto Assbly (Tecumseh "Lamination")& Adjusted Gap,
Repalced Spark Plug, Cleaned Engine Fins& Externals thoroughly,
Dumped Gas, Cleaned Tank& added new Gas, Changed Oil.

After all of the above, the engine ran much better (no missing), but
did not change the original Hot Start w/Key problem.

I don't see the real suggested test(s)...

a) after hot and doesn't start, before the pull test cool down the carb
area (spray w/ hose will work) and then try the starter, or

b) let it really cool off (by itself it'll take perhaps as long as an
hour if really warm) w/o doing anything else.

I forget about the stupid prime buttons--nothing I have is that new if
that small

Is it being used when trying to start hot? If so, possibly it's
flooding it out instead of a vapor lock.

_________
I did a test this morn - per tony& dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

See above - I thought I followed your suggestion "b" by only running
it for about a minute. I then tried the key start, which didn't work.
Then I let it cool for about 15 minutes and it started with the key,
the same way it would start when cool.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:38:09 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:15:51 -0400, wrote:

I have replaced the plug, the coil assbly, and have checked the kill
switch.

Anyone have an idea as to what the problem may be ??

Please correct me if Im wrong but I dont see a fuel filter in the parts
list. Does it have a fuel filter?


Not that I'm aware of.

There should be a dip tube in the gas tank, and there is sometimes a
filter on the bottom of it.
No dip tube on a Tecumseh


Here's another thing to try. If you have an old mower with a gas tank,
mount that tank on something next to your mower, run a gas line from
that tank to your carb. If it starts normally, you have a fuel tank or
line clog. If not, it's deeper in the engine.

Another thing, are you getting a spark when that starter is spinning?
They sell spark testers, or just take off the plug wire and hold a
screwdriver in the hole and 1/8 inch from any metal part of the engine.
You should see a spark. If you do, it's a gas problem. If not, it's
electrical.

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:47:00 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:01:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/18/2012 2:22 PM, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:32:36 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What I can't understand is what pulling the cord (without starting)
does that the starter motor doesn't ?? The only difference I can see
is that the cord revs the flywheel from the top and the starter motor
revs it from the flywheel teeth below - both in the same clockwise
direction.


Not sure that's the case. When you pull very slowly, there is no
resistance. You are clearly not pulling against compression. I'm not
sure what the mechanism is, but some speed is required to lock up
andspin the engine. Is there a centrifugal clutch, maybe?

I know that doesn't help with the diagnosis, but it might spell the
difference between the rope pull and the key start.

When pull very slowly valves don't close rapidly enough to build much
compression so don't notice it (much). That also gives somewhere for
the vapor to go if it is vapor lock.
I don't THINK you have a real case of vapour lock, since there is no
fuel pump. Fuel boiling out of the carb and "dry flooding" the engine
is a possibility (mixture too rich to light) and turning the engine
through slowly by hand COULD be moving enough air through without
drawing more fuel like it would with a fast enough crank to try to
start the engine.

Pulling the starter rope turns a "sprague clutch" that catches the
flywheel (using different mechanisms on different engine - ball
bearings in a race on some old Briggs engines, steel tabs on some
others - and likely several I've either forgotten or never seen) which
turns the motor. MOST small engines in the last 40 years have some
sort od "compession release" which either holds a valve open or closed
below a certain speed to allow the engine to be spun up to starting
speed easily. When up to speed the compression release goes off,
allowing full compression, which starts the engine.

The ONLY thing I can see hand cranking the engine slowly
acvcomplishing is diluting the charge in the intake and cyl by moving
air through the system.

Hmmm,
If it is too ruch(flooding), could smell it. No?
Usually - a wet flood for sure, but a "dry flood" perhaps not.

On Jun 19, 6:35*am, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:58:11 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/18/2012 11:00 AM, wrote:
...

I did a test this morn - per tony& *dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a *minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

The following was done: Cleaned Carburetor, Replaced Carb Bowl Gasket
and Washer, Replaced Carb Seat, Needle and checked& *adjusted Float,
Replaced Magneto Assbly (Tecumseh "Lamination")& *Adjusted Gap,
Repalced Spark Plug, Cleaned Engine Fins& *Externals thoroughly,
Dumped Gas, Cleaned Tank& *added new Gas, Changed Oil.

After all of the above, the engine ran much better (no missing), but
did not change the original Hot Start w/Key problem.

I don't see the real suggested test(s)...

a) after hot and doesn't start, before the pull test cool down the carb
area (spray w/ hose will work) and then try the starter, or

b) let it really cool off (by itself it'll take perhaps as long as an
hour if really warm) w/o doing anything else.

I forget about the stupid prime buttons--nothing I have is that new if
that small

Is it being used when trying to start hot? *If so, possibly it's
flooding it out instead of a vapor lock.

_________

I did a test this morn - per tony& *dpb's suggestions. After it is run
a short time - for about a *minute - and then stopped for about a
minute, it will not start with the key (it revs but does not start).
If the cord is pulled once, it will then start with the key. If its
left for about 15 minutes, and then primed, it will start with the key
again (without pulling the cord).

See above - I thought I followed your suggestion "b" by only running
it for about a minute. I then tried the key start, which didn't work.
Then I let it cool for about 15 minutes and it started with the key,
the same way it would start when cool.

Your problem has me puzzled as much as you. It sounds like an
electrical problem, not a fuel problem. I am not familiar with your
mower but I would check for spark while cranking before you pull the
cord, if you haven't already done this. Some have low oil sensors and
other safety switches. Good luck and let us know if you find the
problem.

Hank