Odd toilet leak problem here for anyone who wants to take a shot at a hard
to diagnose condition.

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15 minutes or
so) top ups of the tank. The leak is really bad; in reflective light,
water in bowl ripples noticeably after tank finishes filling.

The tank is not overfilling, water is not entering the bowl via the
overflow tube.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem persists,
unchanged.

Next. Using gently duty scrunge, clean seal that flapper seats into.
Problem persists, unchanged.

Next. Try light coat of plumbers grease on flapper and seal. Problem
persists, unchanged. Try heavy coat of plumbers grease on flapper and
seal. Problem persists, unchanged.

Carefully inspect fill tube to be sure it is not cracked and leaking from
tank into bowl. No cracks or seepage found.

The last possible cause (leaving out cracked porcelain) is the rubber seal
between the tank and the bowl.

I worked a lot of overtime this week, and I haven't had time to make
another parts run and remove the tank.

As luck would have it, the manual shut off valve leaks when closed. This
means that when the water supply is shut off, the tank slowly (about one
hour) fills itself to the full normal level.

Here is where it gets weired. When the tank fills slowly through the
leaking water supply manual shut off, the tank does not leak into the
bowl. No leak at all.

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or at
a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

On 7/17/2011 11:07 AM, Tony Sivori wrote:
Odd toilet leak problem here for anyone who wants to take a shot at a hard
to diagnose condition.

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15 minutes or
so) top ups of the tank. The leak is really bad; in reflective light,
water in bowl ripples noticeably after tank finishes filling.

The tank is not overfilling, water is not entering the bowl via the
overflow tube.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem persists,
unchanged.

Next. Using gently duty scrunge, clean seal that flapper seats into.
Problem persists, unchanged.

Next. Try light coat of plumbers grease on flapper and seal. Problem
persists, unchanged. Try heavy coat of plumbers grease on flapper and
seal. Problem persists, unchanged.

Carefully inspect fill tube to be sure it is not cracked and leaking from
tank into bowl. No cracks or seepage found.

The last possible cause (leaving out cracked porcelain) is the rubber seal
between the tank and the bowl.

I worked a lot of overtime this week, and I haven't had time to make
another parts run and remove the tank.

As luck would have it, the manual shut off valve leaks when closed. This
means that when the water supply is shut off, the tank slowly (about one
hour) fills itself to the full normal level.

Here is where it gets weired. When the tank fills slowly through the
leaking water supply manual shut off, the tank does not leak into the
bowl. No leak at all.

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or at
a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?


I'd suspect seal between tank and bowl. I've had to replace one for
same problem.

I've also seen bolts between tank and bowl corrode to the point of
failure causing leak.

Tony Sivori wrote:
Odd toilet leak problem here for anyone who wants to take a shot at a hard
to diagnose condition.

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15 minutes or
so) top ups of the tank. The leak is really bad; in reflective light,
water in bowl ripples noticeably after tank finishes filling.

The tank is not overfilling, water is not entering the bowl via the
overflow tube.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem persists,
unchanged.

Next. Using gently duty scrunge, clean seal that flapper seats into.
Problem persists, unchanged.

Next. Try light coat of plumbers grease on flapper and seal. Problem
persists, unchanged. Try heavy coat of plumbers grease on flapper and
seal. Problem persists, unchanged.

Carefully inspect fill tube to be sure it is not cracked and leaking from
tank into bowl. No cracks or seepage found.

The last possible cause (leaving out cracked porcelain) is the rubber seal
between the tank and the bowl.

I worked a lot of overtime this week, and I haven't had time to make
another parts run and remove the tank.

As luck would have it, the manual shut off valve leaks when closed. This
means that when the water supply is shut off, the tank slowly (about one
hour) fills itself to the full normal level.

Here is where it gets weired. When the tank fills slowly through the
leaking water supply manual shut off, the tank does not leak into the
bowl. No leak at all.

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or at
a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?


That points to the fill valve. What kind is it? I sometimes had that
happen that on 40 year old Kohlers. Slow leaks, drip .. drip ..
drippity-drip .. drip ... No leaking when shut-off almost closed but
leaks when fully open. It was the little hose that goes into the
overflow pipe.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Jul 17, 12:29*pm, Joerg wrote:
Tony Sivori wrote:
Odd toilet leak problem here for anyone who wants to take a shot at a hard
to diagnose condition.

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15 minutes or
so) top ups of the tank. The leak is really bad; in reflective light,
water in bowl ripples noticeably after tank finishes filling.

The tank is not overfilling, water is not entering the bowl via the
overflow tube.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem persists,
unchanged.

Next. Using gently duty scrunge, clean seal that flapper seats into.
Problem persists, unchanged.

Next. Try light coat of plumbers grease on flapper and seal. Problem
persists, unchanged. Try heavy coat of plumbers grease on flapper and
seal. Problem persists, unchanged.

Carefully inspect fill tube to be sure it is not cracked and leaking from
tank into bowl. No cracks or seepage found.

The last possible cause (leaving out cracked porcelain) is the rubber seal
between the tank and the bowl.

I worked a lot of overtime this week, and I haven't had time to make
another parts run and remove the tank.

As luck would have it, the manual shut off valve leaks when closed. This
means that when the water supply is shut off, the tank slowly (about one
hour) fills itself to the full normal level.

Here is where it gets weired. When the tank fills slowly through the
leaking water supply manual shut off, the tank does not leak into the
bowl. No leak at all.

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or at
a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?

That points to the fill valve. What kind is it? I sometimes had that
happen that on 40 year old Kohlers. Slow leaks, drip .. drip ..
drippity-drip .. drip ... No leaking when shut-off almost closed but
leaks when fully open. It was the little hose that goes into the
overflow pipe.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He said: The tank is not overfilling, water is not entering the bowl
via the
overflow tube.


I have had that happen because of the seal around the flapper seat to
the bottom of the tank. Since it's over the hole going into the bowl
the water ends up there.

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Tony Sivori wrote:

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15
minutes or so) top ups of the tank.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem
persists, unchanged.

If you touched the rubber surface of the flapper and something like
black ink comes off onto your fingers, then I'd say it's time to replace
the flapper. Otherwise, the flapper is not likely the cause of the
problem.

As has been mentioned, the problem is either

a) the seal between the tank and toilet bowl, or

b) the seal around the bolts holding the tank to the bowl

If the tank was bumped or roughed up, that would account for a loss of
seal at either (a) or (b). Possibly the tank was knocked around so bad
that a crack formed around one of the bolts.

I always fill up the holes where bolts go through the tank with silicone
when doing a toilet repair job. You should have bolts with very wide,
flat heads, along with a tight-fitting rubber washer to help it seal. I
put silicone around those parts as well.

Tightening the bolts too tightly can distort the gasket between the tank
and bowl and cause it to leak.

You'll have to take the tank off, and by the looks of it you'll also
have to shut off your main water valve and replace the shutoff valve
near the toiled because it doesn't work properly.

Sounds like there is a problem with the flapper seat. (Although it doesn't
expain why you don't have a leak when the water is only trickling into the
tank). There are a number of flapper kits that come with seat repair as
well. Worth a try. Here's one:

http://www.amazon.com/Korky-2003BP-E.../dp/B001ARJR8S
--
Peace,
BobJ

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:01:53 -0400, Home Guy wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15
minutes or so) top ups of the tank.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem
persists, unchanged.

If you touched the rubber surface of the flapper and something like
black ink comes off onto your fingers, then I'd say it's time to replace
the flapper. Otherwise, the flapper is not likely the cause of the
problem.

As has been mentioned, the problem is either

a) the seal between the tank and toilet bowl, or

b) the seal around the bolts holding the tank to the bowl

If the tank was bumped or roughed up, that would account for a loss of
seal at either (a) or (b). Possibly the tank was knocked around so bad
that a crack formed around one of the bolts.

I always fill up the holes where bolts go through the tank with silicone
when doing a toilet repair job. You should have bolts with very wide,
flat heads, along with a tight-fitting rubber washer to help it seal. I
put silicone around those parts as well.

Tightening the bolts too tightly can distort the gasket between the tank
and bowl and cause it to leak.

You'll have to take the tank off, and by the looks of it you'll also
have to shut off your main water valve and replace the shutoff valve
near the toiled because it doesn't work properly.

Color me skeptical, but how does leaking tank bolts cause "water in
bowl ripples"?

Any tank bolts I've seen, that leak, drips on the floor - possibly
damaging the vinyl flooring, baseboard or the vanity.

A weak / dirty / slimy flapper or damaged flapper seat will cause the
ripples in the bowl.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 11:07:29 -0400, Tony Sivori
wrote:

As luck would have it, the manual shut off valve leaks when closed. This
means that when the water supply is shut off, the tank slowly (about one
hour) fills itself to the full normal level.

This would be a great time to change the valve. Replace it with a 1/4
turn ball valve.

http://www.azpartsmaster.com/images/catalog/ishop/7070.jpg

On 7/17/2011 5:03 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:01:53 -0400, Home wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15
minutes or so) top ups of the tank.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem
persists, unchanged.

If you touched the rubber surface of the flapper and something like
black ink comes off onto your fingers, then I'd say it's time to replace
the flapper. Otherwise, the flapper is not likely the cause of the
problem.

As has been mentioned, the problem is either

a) the seal between the tank and toilet bowl, or

b) the seal around the bolts holding the tank to the bowl

If the tank was bumped or roughed up, that would account for a loss of
seal at either (a) or (b). Possibly the tank was knocked around so bad
that a crack formed around one of the bolts.

I always fill up the holes where bolts go through the tank with silicone
when doing a toilet repair job. You should have bolts with very wide,
flat heads, along with a tight-fitting rubber washer to help it seal. I
put silicone around those parts as well.

Tightening the bolts too tightly can distort the gasket between the tank
and bowl and cause it to leak.

You'll have to take the tank off, and by the looks of it you'll also
have to shut off your main water valve and replace the shutoff valve
near the toiled because it doesn't work properly.

Color me skeptical, but how does leaking tank bolts cause "water in
bowl ripples"?

Any tank bolts I've seen, that leak, drips on the floor - possibly
damaging the vinyl flooring, baseboard or the vanity.

A weak / dirty / slimy flapper or damaged flapper seat will cause the
ripples in the bowl.

Last year, window installer bumped toilet causing it to leak on floor
and in bowl. He had broken bolt and I happened to have 2 new ones which
he installed but toilet continued to leak in bowl. I figured seal
between tank was disturbed when bolt was broken. This was my last old
toilet in 35 year old house and I wanted to replace it with a low flow
toilet as I had others, since they are kinder to septic. Rubber and
plastic parts can oxidize with time and degrade.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:08:33 -0400, Frank
wrote:

On 7/17/2011 5:03 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:01:53 -0400, Home wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15
minutes or so) top ups of the tank.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem
persists, unchanged.

If you touched the rubber surface of the flapper and something like
black ink comes off onto your fingers, then I'd say it's time to replace
the flapper. Otherwise, the flapper is not likely the cause of the
problem.

As has been mentioned, the problem is either

a) the seal between the tank and toilet bowl, or

b) the seal around the bolts holding the tank to the bowl

If the tank was bumped or roughed up, that would account for a loss of
seal at either (a) or (b). Possibly the tank was knocked around so bad
that a crack formed around one of the bolts.

I always fill up the holes where bolts go through the tank with silicone
when doing a toilet repair job. You should have bolts with very wide,
flat heads, along with a tight-fitting rubber washer to help it seal. I
put silicone around those parts as well.

Tightening the bolts too tightly can distort the gasket between the tank
and bowl and cause it to leak.

You'll have to take the tank off, and by the looks of it you'll also
have to shut off your main water valve and replace the shutoff valve
near the toiled because it doesn't work properly.

Color me skeptical, but how does leaking tank bolts cause "water in
bowl ripples"?

Any tank bolts I've seen, that leak, drips on the floor - possibly
damaging the vinyl flooring, baseboard or the vanity.

A weak / dirty / slimy flapper or damaged flapper seat will cause the
ripples in the bowl.

Last year, window installer bumped toilet causing it to leak on floor
and in bowl. He had broken bolt and I happened to have 2 new ones which
he installed but toilet continued to leak in bowl. I figured seal
between tank was disturbed when bolt was broken. This was my last old
toilet in 35 year old house and I wanted to replace it with a low flow
toilet as I had others, since they are kinder to septic. Rubber and
plastic parts can oxidize with time and degrade.

Since it started leaking after getting whacked, the tank might be cracked,
too. It's not at all uncommon.

Oren wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 11:07:29 -0400, Tony Sivori
wrote:

As luck would have it, the manual shut off valve leaks when closed. This
means that when the water supply is shut off, the tank slowly (about one
hour) fills itself to the full normal level.

This would be a great time to change the valve. Replace it with a 1/4
turn ball valve.

http://www.azpartsmaster.com/images/catalog/ishop/7070.jpg

Already replaced both cut offs on the wash stand. Tried to replace the
toilet cut off, but it didn't want to crack loose and I was afraid of
breaking off the 55 year old pipe.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

Home Guy wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15 minutes or
so) top ups of the tank.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem persists,
unchanged.

If you touched the rubber surface of the flapper and something like
black ink comes off onto your fingers, then I'd say it's time to replace
the flapper. Otherwise, the flapper is not likely the cause of the
problem.

As has been mentioned, the problem is either

a) the seal between the tank and toilet bowl, or

b) the seal around the bolts holding the tank to the bowl

If the tank was bumped or roughed up, that would account for a loss of
seal at either (a) or (b). Possibly the tank was knocked around so bad
that a crack formed around one of the bolts.

The back of the toilet tank is tight against a tiled wall, so there is the
possibility that there is a bind between the tank and bowl.

But I think that the bolts would leak onto the floor, not into the bowl.

I always fill up the holes where bolts go through the tank with silicone
when doing a toilet repair job. You should have bolts with very wide,
flat heads, along with a tight-fitting rubber washer to help it seal. I
put silicone around those parts as well.

Tightening the bolts too tightly can distort the gasket between the tank
and bowl and cause it to leak.

Also, I'm told, it is easy to crack the porcelain.

You'll have to take the tank off, and by the looks of it you'll also
have to shut off your main water valve and replace the shutoff valve
near the toiled because it doesn't work properly.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

Joerg wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or
at a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?


That points to the fill valve. What kind is it?

A Flushmaster, installed about one year ago.

I sometimes had that happen that on 40 year old Kohlers. Slow leaks,
drip .. drip .. drippity-drip .. drip ... No leaking when shut-off
almost closed but leaks when fully open. It was the little hose that
goes into the overflow pipe.

I think if the fill valve were leaking, the water would overfill the tank.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

Frank wrote:

On 7/17/2011 11:07 AM, Tony Sivori wrote:
WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or
at a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?


I'd suspect seal between tank and bowl. I've had to replace one for
same problem.

That's probably it.

The only thing I can think of regarding the lack of a leak when the tank
fills slowly is that maybe the velocity of the water is getting past the
bad seal, but the seal is good enough to contain less turbulent water.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

On 7/17/2011 9:35 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:08:33 -0400,
wrote:

On 7/17/2011 5:03 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:01:53 -0400, Home wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15
minutes or so) top ups of the tank.

Obvious likely cause is the flapper. Replaced. Problem
persists, unchanged.

If you touched the rubber surface of the flapper and something like
black ink comes off onto your fingers, then I'd say it's time to replace
the flapper. Otherwise, the flapper is not likely the cause of the
problem.

As has been mentioned, the problem is either

a) the seal between the tank and toilet bowl, or

b) the seal around the bolts holding the tank to the bowl

If the tank was bumped or roughed up, that would account for a loss of
seal at either (a) or (b). Possibly the tank was knocked around so bad
that a crack formed around one of the bolts.

I always fill up the holes where bolts go through the tank with silicone
when doing a toilet repair job. You should have bolts with very wide,
flat heads, along with a tight-fitting rubber washer to help it seal. I
put silicone around those parts as well.

Tightening the bolts too tightly can distort the gasket between the tank
and bowl and cause it to leak.

You'll have to take the tank off, and by the looks of it you'll also
have to shut off your main water valve and replace the shutoff valve
near the toiled because it doesn't work properly.

Color me skeptical, but how does leaking tank bolts cause "water in
bowl ripples"?

Any tank bolts I've seen, that leak, drips on the floor - possibly
damaging the vinyl flooring, baseboard or the vanity.

A weak / dirty / slimy flapper or damaged flapper seat will cause the
ripples in the bowl.

Last year, window installer bumped toilet causing it to leak on floor
and in bowl. He had broken bolt and I happened to have 2 new ones which
he installed but toilet continued to leak in bowl. I figured seal
between tank was disturbed when bolt was broken. This was my last old
toilet in 35 year old house and I wanted to replace it with a low flow
toilet as I had others, since they are kinder to septic. Rubber and
plastic parts can oxidize with time and degrade.

Since it started leaking after getting whacked, the tank might be cracked,
too. It's not at all uncommon.

Yes. I don' think he hit it hard but bolt was severely corroded. I had
seen it on other toilets.

I had started replacing old toilets about 12 years ago when I cracked
one trying to reseat it after it had been removed for a plumbing repair
in the wall behind it. Bolts had corroded and broken so I rebuilt the
seal and put in new bolts but I overtightened bolts in floor and toilet
cracked. That's when I had plumber put in new toilet, cost about $200
then. He's over $300 now, which includes total job and cost of new
toilet. Well worth the peace of mind in trying to do it yourself at my age.

Symptom:
Toilet tank leaks into bowl, causing very frequent (every 15
minutes or so) top ups of the tank.


if there is no leak into the bowel when the tank is full and the
water supply is (nearly) off
but there is a leak when the water supply is on, then that points to a
leaky float valve.


Some float valves have a small hose that leads from the float valve
directly into the overfull drain pipe which suppplies a flow of water
directly into the bowel when the flapper closes but the tank is still
filling.

If you have a small leak in the float valve through this hose, it will
flow right into the bowel and not overfill the tank.

Take the small hose out of the overflow drain and direct it into the
tank. If you have a leak there, now the tank will overfill.

Mark

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 01:33:15 -0400, Tony Sivori
wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or
at a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?


That points to the fill valve. What kind is it?

A Flushmaster, installed about one year ago.

I sometimes had that happen that on 40 year old Kohlers. Slow leaks,
drip .. drip .. drippity-drip .. drip ... No leaking when shut-off
almost closed but leaks when fully open. It was the little hose that
goes into the overflow pipe.

I think if the fill valve were leaking, the water would overfill the tank.
No. There is an overflow that causes the excess water to go into the
bowl before it would overflow the tank. That could be what is
happening in your case. Make it happen on purpose (by holding the
float up) while you are watching and you will see what I mean.

On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:41:19 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 01:33:15 -0400, Tony Sivori
wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or
at a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?


That points to the fill valve. What kind is it?

A Flushmaster, installed about one year ago.

I sometimes had that happen that on 40 year old Kohlers. Slow leaks,
drip .. drip .. drippity-drip .. drip ... No leaking when shut-off
almost closed but leaks when fully open. It was the little hose that
goes into the overflow pipe.

I think if the fill valve were leaking, the water would overfill the tank.
No. There is an overflow that causes the excess water to go into the
bowl before it would overflow the tank. That could be what is
happening in your case. Make it happen on purpose (by holding the
float up) while you are watching and you will see what I mean.

That's probably the cause. If the valve doesn't close fully water
will overflow into the overflow pipe and into the bowl.
You can see that easy enough.
But the main water outlet is at the bottom of the tank.
The tube going into the overflow pipe isn't under any head pressure
so a minor leak in the valve the water will flow there first.
That's assuming there's only one actual valve for both main outlet and
tube, which is probable. Never took one apart so that's a guess.
An easy way to prove it is to pull the tube from the overflow pipe and
see if there's water coming from it when the valve is supposed to be
closed.
I think Tony said it doesn't always do it, so there might be some grit
in the valve. Tapping the valve with a screwdriver handle while open
may clear it out.

--Vic

wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 01:33:15 -0400, Tony Sivori
wrote:


Joerg wrote:


Tony Sivori wrote:

WTF!? Wouldn't a leaky seal leak whether the tank fills very slowly or
at a normal pace? Why would that make a difference?



That points to the fill valve. What kind is it?

A Flushmaster, installed about one year ago.


I sometimes had that happen that on 40 year old Kohlers. Slow leaks,
drip .. drip .. drippity-drip .. drip ... No leaking when shut-off
almost closed but leaks when fully open. It was the little hose that
goes into the overflow pipe.

I think if the fill valve were leaking, the water would overfill the tank.

No. There is an overflow that causes the excess water to go into the
bowl before it would overflow the tank. That could be what is
happening in your case. Make it happen on purpose (by holding the
float up) while you are watching and you will see what I mean.

Uh, don't you mean holding the float DOWN?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.