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#1
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science question. But is there really an answer? The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it? Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its called FIRE, and maybe there is no further explanation. But the flames are real. They can be seen. Yet, what are they? We know how the light from a lightbulb is created and florescent lights are different than filament types, because they produce ultraviolet light (which we can not see), but that makes the florescent particles glow. While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. Does it also produce ultraviolet? Is there some florescent type material in the gasses that make it glow? |
#2
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#3
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#4
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
wrote in message
... The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it? 1: Short: Any high school chemistry teacher ought to be able to tell you. This is now part of the core curriculum. 2. Long: Yours was a top question of scientific research in the 18th century, thereafter believed solved and thus abandoned, revived in the 20th century by the new technique of spectrum analysis, currently a hot topic today in astrophysics (because observing the flames is our chief source of data about other suns.) A good library (and PBS TV) can help you catch up concerning this. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#5
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#6
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
And, yes, the theory of phlogiston was revised a bit.
Cooking red mercury to provide dephlogistonated air, and all. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Don Phillipson" wrote in message news:jp5lq0 2. Long: Yours was a top question of scientific research in the 18th century, thereafter believed solved and thus abandoned, revived in the 20th century by the new technique of spectrum analysis, currently a hot topic today in astrophysics (because observing the flames is our chief source of data about other suns.) A good library (and PBS TV) can help you catch up concerning this. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#7
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On May 18, 11:39*am, wrote:
Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten logs, when suddenly a question arose. *Probably more of a science question. *But is there really an answer? The question is this: *What are the flames made of? *Yes, I know that they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything else that burns. *These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. *That is all understood. *What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we see? *They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. *Or they are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. *They emit light and heat. *But what is the flame and why do we see it? Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. *After all, its called FIRE, and maybe there is no further explanation. *But the flames are real. *They can be seen. *Yet, what are they? We know how the light from a lightbulb is created and florescent lights are different than filament types, because they produce ultraviolet light (which we can not see), but that makes the florescent particles glow. *While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. *Does it also produce ultraviolet? *Is there some florescent type material in the gasses that make it glow? Yellow flames are particles of carbon burning. If fthey don't burn, you get soot. |
#8
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On 5/18/2012 1:11 PM, harry wrote:
On May 18, 11:39 am, wrote: Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science question. But is there really an answer? The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it? Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its called FIRE, and maybe there is no further explanation. But the flames are real. They can be seen. Yet, what are they? We know how the light from a lightbulb is created and florescent lights are different than filament types, because they produce ultraviolet light (which we can not see), but that makes the florescent particles glow. While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. Does it also produce ultraviolet? Is there some florescent type material in the gasses that make it glow? Yellow flames are particles of carbon burning. If fthey don't burn, you get soot. Yes, incomplete combustion. Pure flame is blue. Note the sodium flame test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame |
#9
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:31:51 -0700, Zz Yzx
wrote: What are the flames made of? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire ...."When you're running down the street on fire, people get out of your way!" Richard Pryor .... on crack. |
#10
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#11
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On 5/18/2012 1:54 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:31:51 -0700, Zz wrote: What are the flames made of? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire ..."When you're running down the street on fire, people get out of your way!" Richard Pryor ... on crack. " 'cept for one ol' wino, who came up to me and said "hey buddy, got a light?" " -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
#12
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#13
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#15
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
Ed Pawlowski wrote in
: On Fri, 18 May 2012 05:39:07 -0500, wrote: Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science question. But is there really an answer? I see you got the answers, but let me add to this. Ever try to burn one log? Pretty difficult. Two is easy. You can watch the flame go back and forth as they feed off of each other. surface area is a big factor. that is why kindling is used to start a fire,more surface area. it's why steel wool burns. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
#16
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:46:04 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote: micky writes: On Fri, 18 May 2012 05:39:07 -0500, wrote: Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science question. But is there really an answer? The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it? Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its called FIRE, and maybe there is no further explanation. But the flames are real. They can be seen. Yet, what are they? We know how the light from a lightbulb is created and florescent lights are different than filament types, because they produce ultraviolet light (which we can not see), but that makes the florescent particles glow. While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. Does it also produce ultraviolet? Is there some florescent type material in the gasses that make it glow? IIRC the light is caused by excited electons (or molecules?) which iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?) quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next question is again, Why?. As you just explained, the process has to do with electrons being excited from one energy level to another and dropping back. At one level there is more energy than at the other level. Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit of light) gets emitted or absorbed. When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted. Yeah, that's it. Thanks for finishing my post. |
#17
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#18
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
100 or so years ago, there was the "soda cracker" theory. That we were just
an atom in some big universe's soda cracker. The theory was met with a big, if some what nervous laugh. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Steve Barker" wrote in message glow. While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. Does it also produce ultraviolet? Is there some florescent type material in the gasses that make it glow? this sounds like one of them late night bar room conversations. "Imagine if our whole universe is just a speck of dust under the fingernail of some giant being...." -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
#19
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:46:04 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote: IIRC the light is caused by excited electons (or molecules?) which iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?) quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next question is again, Why?. As you just explained, the process has to do with electrons being excited from one energy level to another and dropping back. At one level there is more energy than at the other level. Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit of light) gets emitted or absorbed. When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted. -- Dan Espen So, in the case of burning wood, the energy being released is solar energy from when the trees were growing. This means that trees or anything else that grows and burns, is really a solar cell. We make batteries for storing solar energy froim solar cells, but trees are also batteries in a sort of way. If I cut down a 50 year old tree and burn it, I'm getting solar heat from 1962 to present, or when the tree died. However, another question arises. If energy cant be destroyed, I'm seeing light and feeling heat from my campfire. But where is the energy actually going, where it lives on in another form? After all, the light will soon be gone as well as the heat..... |
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#21
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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#22
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
" wrote in
: Energy + matter cannot be destroyed. By burning wood, you're converting matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2? Ummm, I was taught that burning is oxidation, such as C + O gives CO, CO2, etc. In releasing carbon from the organic compounds in wood and combining with oxygen no net mass changes are made. All of the wood matter plus the oxygen weigh exactly the same as all of the combustion products combined. The generation of new bonds between C, H, S, whatever and oxygen constitute "exo-thermic" reactions, i.e. generating heat and thereby also light photons of various wavelengths, visible and infrared, but nothing close to Xrays or gammarays. E=mc^2 refers to nuclear reactions where mass and energy are interconverted, mostly matter into energy. This generates vastly greater quantities of energy than mere burning. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#23
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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
On 20 May 2012 16:24:42 GMT, Han wrote:
" wrote in : Energy + matter cannot be destroyed. By burning wood, you're converting matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2? Ummm, I was taught that burning is oxidation, such as C + O gives CO, CO2, etc. In releasing carbon from the organic compounds in wood and combining with oxygen no net mass changes are made. Wrong. Chemical bonds have mass. You've obviously not heard of E=mc^2? All of the wood matter plus the oxygen weigh exactly the same as all of the combustion products combined. Nope. See above. The resultant mass is less than the mass going in, by, you guessed it, E=mc^2. The generation of new bonds between C, H, S, whatever and oxygen constitute "exo-thermic" reactions, i.e. generating heat and thereby also light photons of various wavelengths, visible and infrared, but nothing close to Xrays or gammarays. Light is light; energy is energy. The wavelength doesn't matter. It's just a matter of magnitude. Give that you've never come across Einstein, I suppose you haven't heard of Max Planck, either: E=h*nu (energy = constant * wavelength) E=mc^2 refers to nuclear reactions where mass and energy are interconverted, mostly matter into energy. This generates vastly greater quantities of energy than mere burning. Energy isn't created out of thin air (well...) in a chemical reaction, either. I suggest you go back and study high school physics. E=mc^2 is not just a good idea... |
#24
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