"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by a
3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power 350,000
homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,3477814.story

On 1/13/2012 6:08 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by a
3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power 350,000
homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,3477814.story


Unfortunately the article only speaks in general terms. What percentage
of chargers waste 60 percent of the electricity used, one or ninety. The
electricity saved would be enough to power Bakersfield, continuously,
for five minutes? My guess is that most of this is aimed at Leds on
chargers. I know some years ago one of my kids had to do a project to
determine how much electricity was wasted by the Led "demons" around the
house. I think we came up with a figure of $5 annually. I suppose I
could claim that if I eliminated all my chargers and Led demons, I could
power Bakersfield as well, albeit only for a nanosecond.

From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new power
plants, and now they are going after the trivial little bittsies instead?

Sounds like they need a Texan to come in, and tell em what they are doing
wrong.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"HeyBub" wrote in message
news "California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by a
3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power 350,000
homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,3477814.story

"HeyBub" wrote in message
news
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by
a 3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power
350,000 homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,3477814.story

Without any data to back me up, I venture that the chargers are not the
biggest culprits. Every thing you own that has a remote control as a feature
represents a larger device that is sucking up power in its standby
state.Think about TVs, receivers, ceiling fans, CD players, recorders, set
top boxes etc.

And then there are clocks of all kinds on microwave ovens, regular ovens,
clocks (including alarm and radio) and computers that are set to wake up on
call or LAN.

Anyway, you get the idea. Do your own count around the house.

Charlie

Stormin Mormon wrote:
From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new
power plants, and now they are going after the trivial little
bittsies instead?

Sounds like they need a Texan to come in, and tell em what they are
doing wrong.


Speaking of vampires and Texans, here's a little factoid that may save your
life.

If you read Bram Stoker's book, "Dracula," you'll find that a wooden stake
in the heart is pure Hollywood bull****. Stoker asserted that the only way
to dispatch a vampire was with a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg!

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly any
vampire problem at all.

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly any
vampire problem at all.

Cause? I'd like you to meet effect.. (g)

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

I hadn't known that. I'd be wise to buy several Bowie knives, and keep one
at hand, at all times.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Speaking of vampires and Texans, here's a little factoid that may save your
life.

If you read Bram Stoker's book, "Dracula," you'll find that a wooden stake
in the heart is pure Hollywood bull****. Stoker asserted that the only way
to dispatch a vampire was with a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg!

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly any
vampire problem at all.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Speaking of vampires and Texans, here's a little factoid that may
save your life.

If you read Bram Stoker's book, "Dracula," you'll find that a wooden
stake in the heart is pure Hollywood bull****. Stoker asserted that
the only way to dispatch a vampire was with a BOWIE KNIFE, not some
****ant tent-peg!

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly
any vampire problem at all.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I hadn't known that. I'd be wise to buy several Bowie knives, and
keep one at hand, at all times.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


I just eat lots of garlic. I've never had a problem.

On 2012-01-13, HeyBub wrote:

In my view...........

In my view, you blather on and on about nothing related to home repair
and everyone would be better served by killfilling yer sorry ass.

nb

--
vi --the root of evil

On Jan 13, 6:08*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by a
3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power 350,000
homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...ia-regulates-e...

LOL...

The US Department of Energy should tell California to stop with the
foolish
initiatives to AVOID becoming energy independent... The issue is not
one of vampire power demands and eliminating them, it is a power
system
infrastructure which has been built on the basis of and requires
importing
electrical energy into the State of California off the interstate
power grid...

What California needs is more power plants, not more crazy ideas which
*MIGHT* begin to reduce demand in another year, that sort of policy or
regulation does nothing to reduce the actual electrical loads NOW as
it
can not force every citizen to immediately replace all the existing
battery
chargers in use many of which will continue to be used long after the
regulation goes into effect, nor will it do anything at all to help
deal with
all the travelers to California whom will be possessing and using
devices
which don't comply with the new standards...

~~ Evan

On 13 Jan 2012 16:43:24 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2012-01-13, HeyBub wrote:

In my view...........

In my view, you blather on and on about nothing related to home repair
and everyone would be better served by killfilling yer sorry ass.

nb

I'm sorry. Did somebody **** in your cheerios this morning?

On 1/13/2012 9:40 AM, Charlie wrote:
wrote in message
news
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by
a 3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power
350,000 homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,3477814.story

Without any data to back me up, I venture that the chargers are not the
biggest culprits. Every thing you own that has a remote control as a feature
represents a larger device that is sucking up power in its standby
state.Think about TVs, receivers, ceiling fans, CD players, recorders, set
top boxes etc.

And then there are clocks of all kinds on microwave ovens, regular ovens,
clocks (including alarm and radio) and computers that are set to wake up on
call or LAN.

Anyway, you get the idea. Do your own count around the house.

Charlie


I've got 5 cable boxes on my TV's around the house and I believe they
use 20 watts each continuously. That's a 100 watt bulb burning day and
night.

Heard these devices use up to 10% household electricity.

The real killer is the new EPA rules tightening up on emissions that
could close hundred of coal fired plants. Couple that with the drive
towards hybrid cars, and there will be a real power crunch. This means
we'll pay through the nose for electricity.

notbob wrote the following:
On 2012-01-13, HeyBub wrote:

In my view...........

In my view, you blather on and on about nothing related to home repair
and everyone would be better served by killfilling yer sorry ass.

nb


Mmmm, Battery powered tools?

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new power
plants, and now they are going after the trivial little bittsies instead?

must be an interesting process that you use to figure. new windmills and pv
installations are either going up or in the planning/permitting process and that
doesn't include all the industrial plants that use steam going to co-gen plants.

of course it's a whole lot cheaper to not build a power plant when you can
provide the comparable amount of negawatts by the use of conservation. it's also
better for the grid as it decentralizes power production


Sounds like they need a Texan to come in, and tell em what they are doing
wrong.

But do make sure it is gov perry that does all that explaining

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new
power plants, and now they are going after the trivial little
bittsies instead?

must be an interesting process that you use to figure. new windmills
and pv installations are either going up or in the
planning/permitting process and that doesn't include all the
industrial plants that use steam going to co-gen plants.


Giggle. Those who think we can run this country - or a significant part of
it - off of sunbeams (or windmills) are disturbed.

Don't get me wrong, these alternatives do have their use, mainly in helping
liberals feel good.

It's interesting to note that the Dutch long ago switched from windmills to
electric pumps. So much for THAT idea.

As for PVs, the amount of the sun's radiation falling on the earth is about
1350 watts / sq meter. At the equator. At noon. With no clouds.

Assuming a PV collector running at 50% efficiency (ha!) and adjusting for
latitude, 12 hours of darkness, clouds, etc., it would take a solar
collector farm the size of the Los Angeles basin (~1200 sq miles) to provide
55GW of power just for California*. Can you imagine the cost to construct
1200 sq miles of anything? Let alone maintenance.

The bright side (pardon the pun) is that everybody in Los Angeles would be
living in the dark.

----
* Of course this was before the recent plan to ban inefficient battery
chargers.

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new
power plants, and now they are going after the trivial little
bittsies instead?

must be an interesting process that you use to figure. new windmills
and pv installations are either going up or in the
planning/permitting process and that doesn't include all the
industrial plants that use steam going to co-gen plants.


Giggle. Those who think we can run this country - or a significant part of
it - off of sunbeams (or windmills) are disturbed.

Don't get me wrong, these alternatives do have their use, mainly in helping
liberals feel good.

It's interesting to note that the Dutch long ago switched from windmills to
electric pumps. So much for THAT idea.

and just exactly how many new power plants have they built in the last 30 years?



As for PVs, the amount of the sun's radiation falling on the earth is about
1350 watts / sq meter. At the equator. At noon. With no clouds.

Assuming a PV collector running at 50% efficiency (ha!) and adjusting for
latitude, 12 hours of darkness, clouds, etc., it would take a solar
collector farm the size of the Los Angeles basin (~1200 sq miles) to provide
55GW of power just for California*. Can you imagine the cost to construct
1200 sq miles of anything? Let alone maintenance.

but really you only need to replace the equivalent of a power plant here and
there and there are plenty of office buildings in LA and elsewhere where you
could cover the roof with significant amounts of PV that would power a
percentage of the building plus provide cooling in the form of shade AND then
provide electricity on the 175 days a year that the office building isn't being
used

As far as maintenance, how much maintenance (speciality of course) would a nuke
plant require compared to the easy to manage maintenance of PVs?

--

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Cras lobortis volutpat
commodo. Morbi lobortis, massa fringilla adipiscing suscipit, velit urna
pharetra neque, non luctus arcu diam vitae justo. Vivamus lacinia scelerisque
ultricies. Nunc lobortis elit ligula. Aliquam sollicitudin nunc sed est gravida
ac viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
Donec vitae arcu id urna euismod feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis ultricies.
Nulla adipiscing tellus a neque vehicula porta. Maecenas volutpat aliquet
sagittis. Proin nisi magna, molestie id volutpat in, tincidunt sed dolor. Nullam
nisi erat, aliquet scelerisque sagittis vitae, pretium accumsan odio. Sed ut mi
iaculis eros rutrum tristique ut nec mi. Aliquam nec augue dui, in mattis urna.
In pretium metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu lorem sed odio porttitor
blandit.

--

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Cras lobortis volutpat
commodo. Morbi lobortis, massa fringilla adipiscing suscipit, velit urna
pharetra neque, non luctus arcu diam vitae justo. Vivamus lacinia scelerisque
ultricies. Nunc lobortis elit ligula. Aliquam sollicitudin nunc sed est gravida
ac viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
Donec vitae arcu id urna euismod feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis ultricies.
Nulla adipiscing tellus a neque vehicula porta. Maecenas volutpat aliquet
sagittis. Proin nisi magna, molestie id volutpat in, tincidunt sed dolor. Nullam
nisi erat, aliquet scelerisque sagittis vitae, pretium accumsan odio. Sed ut mi
iaculis eros rutrum tristique ut nec mi. Aliquam nec augue dui, in mattis urna.
In pretium metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu lorem sed odio porttitor
blandit.

Speaking of vampires and Texans, here's a little factoid that may
save your life.

If you read Bram Stoker's book, "Dracula," you'll find that a wooden
stake in the heart is pure Hollywood bull****. Stoker asserted that
the only way to dispatch a vampire was with a BOWIE KNIFE, not some
****ant tent-peg!

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly
any vampire problem at all.

I hadn't known that. I'd be wise to buy several Bowie knives, and
keep one at hand, at all times.

I just eat lots of garlic. I've never had a problem.

Garlic chases off vampires and evil women.

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

Giggle. Those who think we can run this country - or a significant
part of it - off of sunbeams (or windmills) are disturbed.

Don't get me wrong, these alternatives do have their use, mainly in
helping liberals feel good.

It's interesting to note that the Dutch long ago switched from
windmills to electric pumps. So much for THAT idea.

and just exactly how many new power plants have they built in the
last 30 years?

I don't know. Sufficiently many, I presume.




As for PVs, the amount of the sun's radiation falling on the earth
is about 1350 watts / sq meter. At the equator. At noon. With no
clouds.

Assuming a PV collector running at 50% efficiency (ha!) and
adjusting for latitude, 12 hours of darkness, clouds, etc., it would
take a solar collector farm the size of the Los Angeles basin (~1200
sq miles) to provide 55GW of power just for California*. Can you
imagine the cost to construct 1200 sq miles of anything? Let alone
maintenance.

but really you only need to replace the equivalent of a power plant
here and there and there are plenty of office buildings in LA and
elsewhere where you could cover the roof with significant amounts of
PV that would power a percentage of the building plus provide cooling
in the form of shade AND then provide electricity on the 175 days a
year that the office building isn't being used


You make a good point; electricity for an office building is severely
curtailed at night. So, let's figure it out.

Last week, the first "skyscraper" to be built outside of downtown Houston
was blown up. Using it as an example, let's do some math.

The building was 20 stories and comprised 500,000 sq ft. That's 25,000 sq ft
per floor and, presumably, the roof. That's a bit more than 2300 sq meters.
If the building was at the equator, it would receive almost 800,000 watts of
radiation from the sun. Adjusting for latitude (-30%) and efficiency of the
solar collectors (~30% tops), we get total usable energy of about 167,000
watts. Cloud cover - an unknown - would diminish the value further.*

A modern building will draw on the order of 1.5 million watts (6MW for 2
million sq ft).

So, then, a back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates the the roof of our
departed building could reduce its energy requirements by 11%. But at an
installation cost of $4.00/watt, we're in the neighborhood of $650,000.00.
Saving $0.15/kwh contrasted with the opportunity cost of 650 thou (earned
interest), I doubt the project would EVER pay for itself.

But it would make liberals "feel" better.

---
* Using the average insolation values for Texas, the amount of energy is 4
kwh/m^2.

Evan wrote:
On Jan 13, 6:08 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds
of other portable electronic devices will be required to have
energy-stingy battery chargers beginning next year. The California
Energy Commission, by a 3-0 vote Thursday, approved
first-in-the-nation efficiency standards designed to drive stakes
through the hearts of about 170 million so-called vampire charging
systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they suck from
outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power
350,000 homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate
Bakersfield. If you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...ia-regulates-e...

LOL...

The US Department of Energy should tell California to stop with the
foolish
initiatives to AVOID becoming energy independent... The issue is not
one of vampire power demands and eliminating them, it is a power
system
infrastructure which has been built on the basis of and requires
importing
electrical energy into the State of California off the interstate
power grid...


You have an excellent point. California is way more populated that Texas,
but in some ways the two states can be compared.

Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that regard.

Now what if California decided, or it was decided for them, to be power
independent?

It wouldn't be so bad - California has an agreeable climate, so the folks
wouldn't be freezing in the dark. They would, however, have to subsist on
nuts and berries.

Interesting concept.

notbob wrote:
On 2012-01-13, HeyBub wrote:

In my view...........

In my view, you blather on and on about nothing related to home repair
and everyone would be better served by killfilling yer sorry ass.


Oh, I do it just to irritate you.

I think adrenaline is good for people.

Just wait 'til you see the post I'm currently working on. While I haven't
finished it yet, I can tell you that it provides a formula for concocting a
blood substitute from fresh turnips.

I'll eagerly await your review.

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

So, then, a back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates the the roof of our
departed building could reduce its energy requirements by 11%. But at an
installation cost of $4.00/watt, we're in the neighborhood of $650,000.00.
Saving $0.15/kwh contrasted with the opportunity cost of 650 thou (earned
interest), I doubt the project would EVER pay for itself.

you're not factoring in the savings in cooling from the shading of the roof.





But it would make liberals "feel" better.

oh, the repubs would love it: all the jobs it would create and they wouldn't be
minimum wage like most of them in Texas

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:


The US Department of Energy should tell California to stop with the foolish
initiatives to AVOID becoming energy independent... The issue is not one
of vampire power demands and eliminating them, it is a power system
infrastructure which has been built on the basis of and requires importing
electrical energy into the State of California off the interstate power
grid...


You have an excellent point. California is way more populated that Texas, but
in some ways the two states can be compared.

except that per capita use of electricity in California is at least 10% less
than that of Texas

of course Texas does produce approximately 10% of it's electricity from wind
which is more than 6 times what California does



Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that regard.

Not so: The $40 million HVDC back-to-back tie connects the state power grid of
Texas and the national power grid of Mexico, operated by the Electric
Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and Comisión Federal de Electricidad (CFE)
respectively. It enables 150 MW of power to be transferred in either direction
and allows each grid to support the other during peak demand and grid
emergencies. It is also equipped with short-term overload capacity in excess of
its continuous rating of 150 MW.



Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they were as
diligent about conservation as California

Without any data to back me up, I venture that the chargers are not the
biggest culprits. Every thing you own that has a remote control as a feature
represents a larger device that is sucking up power in its standby
state.Think about TVs, receivers, ceiling fans, CD players, recorders, set
top boxes etc.

And then there are clocks of all kinds on microwave ovens, regular ovens,
clocks (including alarm and radio) and computers that are set to wake up on
call or LAN.

Anyway, you get the idea. Do your own count around the house.

Charlie

Yes that is likely to be so. Also, lots of people I know leave their
computer(s) permanently on.

On Jan 13, 3:00*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new
power plants, and now they are going after the trivial little
bittsies instead?

Sounds like they need a Texan to come in, and tell em what they are
doing wrong.

Speaking of vampires and Texans, here's a little factoid that may save your
life.

If you read Bram Stoker's book, "Dracula," you'll find that a wooden stake
in the heart is pure Hollywood bull****. Stoker asserted that the only way
to dispatch a vampire was with a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg!

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly any
vampire problem at all.

Once again you revert to your Hollywood education.
In the UK we have virtually no Bowie knives and zero vampires.

On Jan 13, 4:28*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I hadn't known that. I'd be wise to buy several Bowie knives, and keep one
at hand, at all times.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...

Speaking of vampires and Texans, here's a little factoid that may save your
life.

If you read Bram Stoker's book, "Dracula," you'll find that a wooden stake
in the heart is pure Hollywood bull****. Stoker asserted that the only way
to dispatch a vampire was with a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg!

I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie Knives in the state and hardly any
vampire problem at all.

Is your temple full of vampires then?

On Jan 13, 9:19*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article ,
*"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new power
plants, and now they are going after the trivial little bittsies instead?

must be an interesting process that you use to figure. new windmills and pv
installations are either going up or in the planning/permitting process and that
doesn't include all the industrial plants that use steam going to co-gen plants.

of course it's a whole lot cheaper to not build a power plant when you can
provide the comparable amount of negawatts by the use of conservation. it's also
better for the grid as it decentralizes power production



Sounds like they need a Texan to come in, and tell em what they are doing
wrong.

But do make sure it is gov perry that does all that explaining

You are exactly right. There is ample scope in America for power
conservation.

On Jan 13, 11:02*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

From what I can figure, they have prevented the construction of new
power plants, and now they are going after the trivial little
bittsies instead?

must be an interesting process that you use to figure. new windmills
and pv installations are either going up or in the
planning/permitting process and that doesn't include all the
industrial plants that use steam going to co-gen plants.

Giggle. Those who think we can run this country - or a significant part of
it - off of sunbeams (or windmills) are disturbed.

Don't get me wrong, these alternatives do have their use, mainly in helping
liberals feel good.

It's interesting to note that the Dutch long ago switched from windmills to
electric pumps. So much for THAT idea.


The Dutch have in fact gone back to windmills in a big way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_po...he_Netherlands

There are lots in the UK too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_po...United_Kingdom

There are plans to build lots more. Eg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Array

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

As for PVs, the amount of the sun's radiation falling on the earth is
about 1350 watts / sq meter. At the equator. At noon. With no clouds.

Assuming a PV collector running at 50% efficiency (ha!) and adjusting for
latitude, 12 hours of darkness, clouds, etc., it would take a solar
collector farm the size of the Los Angeles basin (~1200 sq miles) to
provide 55GW of power just for California*. Can you imagine the cost to
construct 1200 sq miles of anything? Let alone maintenance.

The bright side (pardon the pun) is that everybody in Los Angeles would be
living in the dark.

I have a 4Kw PV grid tie array myself on the roof. It generates about as
much electricity as I use. Due to subsidy i make around $1,500/yr profit
from it.
Roofs are otherwise wasted space.
I export by day and import by night.
Insolation here (UK)maxes out at around 1000w/m2
Efficiency is around 12%,depends on temperature and age.
As I type,(10.00) it is doing around 2Kw ,it will probably max out today at
around 2.75Kw

On Jan 13, 6:08*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds of
other portable electronic devices will be required to have energy-stingy
battery chargers beginning next year. The California Energy Commission, by a
3-0 vote Thursday, approved first-in-the-nation efficiency standards
designed to drive stakes through the hearts of about 170 million so-called
vampire charging systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they
suck from outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power 350,000
homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate Bakersfield. If
you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...ia-regulates-e...

feds should create some standards for voltage and current, to minimize
all the clutter

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:05:10 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:

Evan wrote:
On Jan 13, 6:08 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"California's cellphones, tablet computers, power tools and hundreds
of other portable electronic devices will be required to have
energy-stingy battery chargers beginning next year. The California
Energy Commission, by a 3-0 vote Thursday, approved
first-in-the-nation efficiency standards designed to drive stakes
through the hearts of about 170 million so-called vampire charging
systems that waste as much as 60% of the electricity they suck from
outlets."

"The regulations... are expected to save enough electricity to power
350,000 homes, equivalent to a city the size of Bakersfield."

In my view, Californians would be better off to eliminate
Bakersfield. If you've ever been there, you know what I mean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...ia-regulates-e...

LOL...

The US Department of Energy should tell California to stop with the
foolish
initiatives to AVOID becoming energy independent... The issue is not
one of vampire power demands and eliminating them, it is a power
system
infrastructure which has been built on the basis of and requires
importing
electrical energy into the State of California off the interstate
power grid...


You have an excellent point. California is way more populated that Texas,
but in some ways the two states can be compared.

Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that regard.

Now what if California decided, or it was decided for them, to be power
independent?

It wouldn't be so bad - California has an agreeable climate, so the folks
wouldn't be freezing in the dark. They would, however, have to subsist on
nuts and berries.

Californians are cannibals? Oh, you said "berries", not "fruit".

Interesting concept.

Indeed.

On Jan 14, 12:35*am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article ,

*"HeyBub" wrote:
The US Department of Energy should tell California to stop with the foolish
initiatives to AVOID becoming energy independent... *The issue is not one
of vampire power demands and eliminating them, it is a power system
infrastructure which has been built on the basis of and requires importing
electrical energy into the State of California off the interstate power
grid...

You have an excellent point. California is way more populated that Texas, but
in some ways the two states can be compared.

except that per capita use of electricity in California is at least 10% less
than that of Texas

of course Texas does produce approximately 10% of it's electricity from wind
which is more than 6 times what California does



Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that regard.

Not so: The $40 million HVDC back-to-back tie connects the state power grid of
Texas and the national power grid of Mexico, operated by the Electric
Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and Comisión Federal de Electricidad (CFE)
respectively. It enables 150 MW of power to be transferred in either direction
and allows each grid to support the other during peak demand and grid
emergencies. It is also equipped with short-term overload capacity in excess of
its continuous rating of 150 MW.

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they were as
diligent about conservation as California

You mean like how getting 2x the mileage now on cars that we
used to get brought us low gas prices? Not that I'm against
conserving where it makes sense, just that to think conservartion
equals low electricity prices doesn't equate. For example, if CA
has conserved so much, and knows so much, why do they have
the highest electricity rates in the country? I guess that's what
ticks me off about this whole thing. You have a state that is the
most screwed in the country trying to force companies, and hence
the rest of us, into doing things their way.

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that
regard.

Not so: The $40 million HVDC back-to-back tie connects the state
power grid of Texas and the national power grid of Mexico, operated
by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and Comisión
Federal de Electricidad (CFE) respectively. It enables 150 MW of
power to be transferred in either direction and allows each grid to
support the other during peak demand and grid emergencies. It is also
equipped with short-term overload capacity in excess of its
continuous rating of 150 MW.

Agreed, but that connection is not for normal consumption - it's for
emergencies, or at least abnormal demand. I wouldn't be surprised if Texas
had a backup plan to truck in electricity if the need arose.

And 150MW is a piddly amount. Won't even run an egg farm.

Approximate values:
Texas electricity max demand: (2010) 64.5 GW
California max demand (2011) 60.4GW




Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they
were as diligent about conservation as California

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in California if they
operated their system like Texas.

California, residential, $0.14/kwh
Texas, residential, $0.11/kwh

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:09:25 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that
regard.

Not so: The $40 million HVDC back-to-back tie connects the state
power grid of Texas and the national power grid of Mexico, operated
by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and Comisión
Federal de Electricidad (CFE) respectively. It enables 150 MW of
power to be transferred in either direction and allows each grid to
support the other during peak demand and grid emergencies. It is also
equipped with short-term overload capacity in excess of its
continuous rating of 150 MW.

Agreed, but that connection is not for normal consumption - it's for
emergencies, or at least abnormal demand. I wouldn't be surprised if Texas
had a backup plan to truck in electricity if the need arose.

And 150MW is a piddly amount. Won't even run an egg farm.

Approximate values:
Texas electricity max demand: (2010) 64.5 GW
California max demand (2011) 60.4GW




Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they
were as diligent about conservation as California

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in California if they
operated their system like Texas.

California, residential, $0.14/kwh
Texas, residential, $0.11/kwh

Alabama, residential $.09/kWh.
Georgia, residential (winter/heat), $.07/kWh.

On 1/16/2012 11:05 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:09:25 -0600, wrote:

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that
regard.

Not so: The $40 million HVDC back-to-back tie connects the state
power grid of Texas and the national power grid of Mexico, operated
by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and Comisión
Federal de Electricidad (CFE) respectively. It enables 150 MW of
power to be transferred in either direction and allows each grid to
support the other during peak demand and grid emergencies. It is also
equipped with short-term overload capacity in excess of its
continuous rating of 150 MW.

Agreed, but that connection is not for normal consumption - it's for
emergencies, or at least abnormal demand. I wouldn't be surprised if Texas
had a backup plan to truck in electricity if the need arose.

And 150MW is a piddly amount. Won't even run an egg farm.

Approximate values:
Texas electricity max demand: (2010) 64.5 GW
California max demand (2011) 60.4GW




Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they
were as diligent about conservation as California

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in California if they
operated their system like Texas.

California, residential, $0.14/kwh
Texas, residential, $0.11/kwh

Alabama, residential $.09/kWh.
Georgia, residential (winter/heat), $.07/kWh.

Hummm, I thought The Southern Company which owns Alabama power and
Georgia Power would have very similar prices unless the difference
is in the state tax. I know TVA supplies a lot of power in Alabama
but I'm not sure about Georgia.

TDD

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

Texas is not connected to the two national power grids; it imports no
electrical power. The state is entirely self-sufficient in that
regard.

Not so: The $40 million HVDC back-to-back tie connects the state
power grid of Texas and the national power grid of Mexico, operated
by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and Comisión
Federal de Electricidad (CFE) respectively. It enables 150 MW of
power to be transferred in either direction and allows each grid to
support the other during peak demand and grid emergencies. It is also
equipped with short-term overload capacity in excess of its
continuous rating of 150 MW.

Agreed, but that connection is not for normal consumption - it's for
emergencies, or at least abnormal demand. I wouldn't be surprised if Texas
had a backup plan to truck in electricity if the need arose.

And 150MW is a piddly amount. Won't even run an egg farm.

Does Texas even have egg farms?



Approximate values:
Texas electricity max demand: (2010) 64.5 GW
California max demand (2011) 60.4GW


*California Population: 37,691,912*

*Texas Population: 25,674,681*



* estimated as of July 1 2011


California has 50% larger population and uses about 8% less that Texas, how many
extra power plants are Texans paying for because they can't get themselves to
conserve







Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they
were as diligent about conservation as California

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in California if they
operated their system like Texas.

California, residential, $0.14/kwh
Texas, residential, $0.11/kwh

I pay $0.11/kwh and live in northern California

--

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Cras lobortis volutpat
commodo. Morbi lobortis, massa fringilla adipiscing suscipit, velit urna
pharetra neque, non luctus arcu diam vitae justo. Vivamus lacinia scelerisque
ultricies. Nunc lobortis elit ligula. Aliquam sollicitudin nunc sed est gravida
ac viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
Donec vitae arcu id urna euismod feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis ultricies.
Nulla adipiscing tellus a neque vehicula porta. Maecenas volutpat aliquet
sagittis. Proin nisi magna, molestie id volutpat in, tincidunt sed dolor. Nullam
nisi erat, aliquet scelerisque sagittis vitae, pretium accumsan odio. Sed ut mi
iaculis eros rutrum tristique ut nec mi. Aliquam nec augue dui, in mattis urna.
In pretium metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu lorem sed odio porttitor
blandit.

--

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Cras lobortis volutpat
commodo. Morbi lobortis, massa fringilla adipiscing suscipit, velit urna
pharetra neque, non luctus arcu diam vitae justo. Vivamus lacinia scelerisque
ultricies. Nunc lobortis elit ligula. Aliquam sollicitudin nunc sed est gravida
ac viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
Donec vitae arcu id urna euismod feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis ultricies.
Nulla adipiscing tellus a neque vehicula porta. Maecenas volutpat aliquet
sagittis. Proin nisi magna, molestie id volutpat in, tincidunt sed dolor. Nullam
nisi erat, aliquet scelerisque sagittis vitae, pretium accumsan odio. Sed ut mi
iaculis eros rutrum tristique ut nec mi. Aliquam nec augue dui, in mattis urna.
In pretium metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu lorem sed odio porttitor
blandit.

In article ,
" wrote:

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in Texas if they were as
diligent about conservation as California

You mean like how getting 2x the mileage now on cars that we used to get
brought us low gas prices?

California doesn't control the world supply of oil nor does it control world
demand nor even the speculators that benefit from high oil prices.


Not that I'm against conserving where it makes sense, just that to think
conservartion equals low electricity prices doesn't equate.

For as long as I can remember, that hasn't been the case. Negawatts are almost
always cheaper than megawatts and the case here has been more about cost
avoidance (when the power companies were given cost plus guarantees for their
rates and thus were de-incentivised to be efficient) and environmental
concerns.



For example, if CA has conserved so much, and knows so much, why do they have
the highest electricity rates in the country?

they don't, not even close: http://www.kaec.org/images/stand/0607_RateMap.pdf


I guess that's what ticks me off about this whole thing. You have a state
that is the most screwed in the country trying to force companies, and hence
the rest of us, into doing things their way.

no one is forcing you to be energy efficient. there are more than enough choices
out there for you to be in hog heaven and you won't break a single law

In article ,
" wrote:

Alabama, residential $.09/kWh.
Georgia, residential (winter/heat), $.07/kWh.

as soon as those nukes go on line in Georgia, you can count on the rates going up

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:33:30 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote Re California to slay the
vampi

California has 50% larger population and uses about 8% less that Texas, how many
extra power plants are Texans paying for because they can't get themselves to
conserve

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in California if they
operated their system like Texas.

California, residential, $0.14/kwh
Texas, residential, $0.11/kwh

I pay $0.11/kwh and live in northern California

That $0.11/kwh is because you use less than 100kwh/month. Go up to
200kwh/month and see the rate rise significantly. In TX, the average
use is probably about 1100kwh/month and for that they pay $0.11/kwh.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

I guess that's what ticks me off about this whole thing. You have a
state that is the most screwed in the country trying to force
companies, and hence the rest of us, into doing things their way.

no one is forcing you to be energy efficient. there are more than
enough choices out there for you to be in hog heaven and you won't
break a single law

100-watt lightbulbs anyone?

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Imagine how low the price of electricity would be in California if
they operated their system like Texas.

California, residential, $0.14/kwh
Texas, residential, $0.11/kwh

Alabama, residential $.09/kWh.
Georgia, residential (winter/heat), $.07/kWh.

But only 40% of those two states are wired for electricity.