Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

CraigT wrote:

Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will
be running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for
comfort.

(...)

and when they were set to their most sensitive settings which caused
the furnace/AC to cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they
had. Is there a brand or maybe a particular thermostat out there
that is known to be more sensitive than others?

Look. Here's what's going on. I'm going to focus primarily on the
furnace side for now, not the A/C side.

You have a furnace in your house that probably puts out more BTU's of
heat than it should. In other words, your furnace is over-sized for
your house.

What this means is that it can over-heat your house and make you
uncomfortable just at the point when the thermostat tells it to shut
off. Then as your house cools down, you are again uncomfortable by the
coolness just at the point when the thermostat tells the furnace to turn
on.

To deal with this, you have 3 options - which can be employed either
individually or in any combination:

A) have the furnace put out less heat when it's on. I personally dial
down the gas input to my furnace so as to modulate the intensity of the
flames (exactly what you do with your barbeque) so that my furnace runs
longer and this leads to a more even heat for the house. This works
well for older furnaces that ARE NOT computer or
electronically-controlled (these are typically 30 to 35 years old) and
it can also work well for furnaces that have electronic ignition but are
otherwise NOT REALLY computer-controlled (25 to 30 years old) and are
likely to NOT be condensing (ie - high efficiency) type.

B) the "hysteresis" or the "span" of the thermostat can be changed (in
your case - reduced). Some thermostats have the ability to set the
temperature spam between when the furnace shuts off and when it comes
back on. This is typically either 1, 2 or 3 degrees F. Sometimes this
setting is a small switch on the back of the thermostat (ie - not
typically or frequently-accessible user adjustable). When you set it to
1, the furnace cycles more frequently, but theoretically will give you a
more even temperature over time. If your current thermostat does not
allow you to set the SPAN, or if the span setting is fixed at either 2
or 3 degrees F, then you want to look for a thermostat that has an
adjustable SPAN, or one that has a fixed span of 1 degree F.

c) run your fan continuously. If your furnace fan is always running,
this will lead to a more evenly heated house and can overcome any
tendency to over-shoot or under-shoot the desired temperature. The
benefits of running your fan continuously in the summer are even
greater, and is the preferred way to deal with keeping or maintaining
the desired temperature during A/C use.

One final thought: Where you thermostat is located in your house may be
the sole reason for your temperature discomfort, or at least play a
major role. This has to do with air currents and circulation and there
might be a better location for it in the house. An extension of this
idea is that the thermal coupling of the thermostat to the wall itself
may be influencing how the thermostat is sensing temperature, and
placing an insulating layer between the wall and the thermostat may
provide the solution you are seeking.

My furnace or AC is not oversized, every contractor that has seen my setup
has said that I'm close to being undersized. When my units run one of my
complaints is that they run for so long, they do not easily overcome the
sizing of my house. My house is only 10 years old and as I stated already I
have the thermostat already set to its most sensitive setting. I didn't say
it but it is on an interior wall. Like I said I want the heating and
cooling units to cycle more often for shorter times, I do not want to listen
to a fan running 24/7.

What I want to know is if there is a thermostat out there that is more
sensitive than the rest or can be set to be so? Like rather than settings
of 1,2,or 3 for sensitivity settings it allows for a more sensitive setting
like .5?


"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
CraigT wrote:

Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will
be running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for
comfort.

(...)

and when they were set to their most sensitive settings which caused
the furnace/AC to cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they
had. Is there a brand or maybe a particular thermostat out there
that is known to be more sensitive than others?

Look. Here's what's going on. I'm going to focus primarily on the
furnace side for now, not the A/C side.

You have a furnace in your house that probably puts out more BTU's of
heat than it should. In other words, your furnace is over-sized for
your house.

What this means is that it can over-heat your house and make you
uncomfortable just at the point when the thermostat tells it to shut
off. Then as your house cools down, you are again uncomfortable by the
coolness just at the point when the thermostat tells the furnace to turn
on.

To deal with this, you have 3 options - which can be employed either
individually or in any combination:

A) have the furnace put out less heat when it's on. I personally dial
down the gas input to my furnace so as to modulate the intensity of the
flames (exactly what you do with your barbeque) so that my furnace runs
longer and this leads to a more even heat for the house. This works
well for older furnaces that ARE NOT computer or
electronically-controlled (these are typically 30 to 35 years old) and
it can also work well for furnaces that have electronic ignition but are
otherwise NOT REALLY computer-controlled (25 to 30 years old) and are
likely to NOT be condensing (ie - high efficiency) type.

B) the "hysteresis" or the "span" of the thermostat can be changed (in
your case - reduced). Some thermostats have the ability to set the
temperature spam between when the furnace shuts off and when it comes
back on. This is typically either 1, 2 or 3 degrees F. Sometimes this
setting is a small switch on the back of the thermostat (ie - not
typically or frequently-accessible user adjustable). When you set it to
1, the furnace cycles more frequently, but theoretically will give you a
more even temperature over time. If your current thermostat does not
allow you to set the SPAN, or if the span setting is fixed at either 2
or 3 degrees F, then you want to look for a thermostat that has an
adjustable SPAN, or one that has a fixed span of 1 degree F.

c) run your fan continuously. If your furnace fan is always running,
this will lead to a more evenly heated house and can overcome any
tendency to over-shoot or under-shoot the desired temperature. The
benefits of running your fan continuously in the summer are even
greater, and is the preferred way to deal with keeping or maintaining
the desired temperature during A/C use.

One final thought: Where you thermostat is located in your house may be
the sole reason for your temperature discomfort, or at least play a
major role. This has to do with air currents and circulation and there
might be a better location for it in the house. An extension of this
idea is that the thermal coupling of the thermostat to the wall itself
may be influencing how the thermostat is sensing temperature, and
placing an insulating layer between the wall and the thermostat may
provide the solution you are seeking.

CraigT wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T


Hmmm,
Easiest is getting the blower run on low sped all the time kicking into
higher speed when heating or cooling. What style house, where is the
location? Jow big? My unit in summer or winter runs 2-3 times an hour.We
are comfy. Having a wireless 'stat I can move it where I want
for better comfort.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:05:09 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Hmmm,
Easiest is getting the blower run on low sped all the time kicking into
higher speed when heating or cooling. What style house, where is the
location? Jow big? My unit in summer or winter runs 2-3 times an hour.We
are comfy. Having a wireless 'stat I can move it where I want
for better comfort.

You remind me. I wanted to get a wireless stat, but didn't want to
spend the money. I think now I'm just going to get an X-10 that will
only turn the furnace house-current on and off. I'd replace the
"Emergency" toggle siwtch in the basement with an X-10 on-off switch,
which works remotely and locally.

At the very least that will turn the furnace off when I open the
window upstairs.

Any real downside to this plan?

CraigT wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T


I have no idea what I'm talking about, so some expert will likely
correct me...

It's not about hysteresis in the thermostat.
It's about balancing the heat supplied by the furnace with the heat
lost thru the walls, etc.

The longer the thermal time constant of your house, the more stable
the temperature will be. So, Let the system stabilize at some
temperature.
For fixed external temperature, plot the internal temperature vs time
with the furnace off. That'll give you the thermal time constant
of the house (at the location you monitor). You want the cycle time
of the furnace to be much shorter than the time constant of the house.

Infiltration can also make a BIG difference. You don't want any, for
this calculation...but you do want some for health. It's a tradeoff.

I have a Honeywell TH8000 on a high-efficiency gas furnace.
It has a zillion setup functions that I never bothered to understand.
I don't know how it is supposed to work, but I can tell you the symptoms.

The temperature readout never changes (after it stabilizes).
I thought it was broke, so I put another thermometer next to it.
It don't change either (one degree F resolution).
A thermometer on the external wall next to the window does
change with the house's thermal time constant, local heat loss
and differences in air flow.

The thermostat modulates the furnace run time and the cycle time.

I have a PDA that tracks the on-time, cycle-time, and the duty factor
for each cycle. It graphs the duty factor.
Duty factor is directly proportional to BTU/hour.

The thermostat runs the furnace for about 5 minutes and modulates the
cycle time. As the in-out temperature difference increases, the
cycle time gets shorter. When the cycle time gets down to about an
hour, the
on-time starts increasing as the cycle time decreases.


The graph of duty cycle tracks the internal-external temperature
difference (for fixed other heat sources).
When I turn off my computer and go to bed, the duty factor goes up
to account for the 200W of heat that is no longer generated by the
computer system. It's also interesting to watch the duty factor
track down during the day due to insolation, but with a phase
shift due to the thermal time constant of the house.

If I raise the setpoint, the duty factor overshoots and rings as
it settles to a new duty factor value consistent with the heat loss
at the new internal temperature. Classic feedback control system
behavior. It's interesting that the thermostat temperature readout
changes rather quickly to the new setpoint value, but it keeps running
the furnace on that
first cycle. Takes about 10 minutes of extra run time to bring the house
up one degree F. The temperature readout does not overshoot,
but the duty factor does.

It seems to be more about tracking average heat loss than the hysteresis
of the thermostat. The thermostat predicts future behavior based on
past behavior and applies minor tweaks based on sensed temperature
to keep it at the setpoint. This is not your grandfather's mercury
switch thermostat.

Your fuel injected car works the same way. For a given throttle
position, yes there are many other inputs too, the computer looks up an
injector pulse width in a table and runs with it. The oxygen sensor
determines whether the mixture is rich or lean and tweaks the injector
on-time up and down slightly around the optimum point to keep the
average mixture about right. It doesn't even try to make it exactly
right. There isn't any hysteresis required, but the mixture "hunts"
around the correct value.

micky wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:05:09 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Hmmm,
Easiest is getting the blower run on low sped all the time kicking into
higher speed when heating or cooling. What style house, where is the
location? Jow big? My unit in summer or winter runs 2-3 times an hour.We
are comfy. Having a wireless 'stat I can move it where I want
for better comfort.

You remind me. I wanted to get a wireless stat, but didn't want to
spend the money. I think now I'm just going to get an X-10 that will
only turn the furnace house-current on and off. I'd replace the
"Emergency" toggle siwtch in the basement with an X-10 on-off switch,
which works remotely and locally.

At the very least that will turn the furnace off when I open the
window upstairs.

Any real downside to this plan?

Generally BAD idea.
RISK
If you have an electric furnace, you're probably ok.
If you have gas, I'd worry about it. Makes me nervous to pull the plug
on the control system of something that's on fire.
If it's a heat pump, I'd worry about short-cycling the system
and burning up the compressor.
The safety systems expect to have the power on. Yes, a well-designed
system will take care of that on power up...a well-designed system...
But you can bet the designers/evaluators did not contemplate someone
pulling the plug as a routine control input. Their bean counters were
much more concerned
with taking out that last penny of cost.

X10
There have been many variants of X10. My experience is with the older
stuff.
It's not secure. Depending on how far between the button and the switch,
Whether it's on the same side of the line, noise, etc.
it may or may not switch reliably.
And it can switch when you least expect it.
So if it's 99 reliable, you can expect that it will screw up only once
in a hundred times...like once a week???
It's not the things you plan for that hurt you. It's the unexpected
that causes the problems.
You need to be DARNED sure that nothing bad can happen while you're not
home. If you're not there to dial 911, your house will burn further down.

Compare the cost of a proper thermostat with the cost of damage to
the system and/or your house.

The local control function works by supplying current when off and
sensing whether anything is there. Works well for a lamp. For an
electronic control, not so much. What happens when the controller
gets just enough juice to fsck things up?

Try this:
Hook a CFL lamp up to an appliance module and let it warm up.
When you switch off the relay, the local control current
charges up the cap in the CFL until the inverter turns on and
flashes the lamp. There are online instructions on how to pull
a component to disable this function, but you no longer have local
control.

If I were gonna cobble together something with X10, I'd use an isolation
relay in the control path from the existing thermostat, but before the
safety mechanisms in the controller.

On Nov 25, 4:38*am, "CraigT" wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. *I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. *One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. *Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

What you are talking about is called hysterysis. (ie the temperature
difference between coming on and going off). Sometimes called delta T.

You can buy thermostats that have an extra adjustment to vary this,
usually hidden away inside the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterysis#Control_systems
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4388692.html

You will need to go to a proper AC engineering supplier, chances are
your local DIY place won't have a clue.

Decent heating plant nowadays is modulating ,ie is not simply on or
off but can be "turned down" to intermediate outputs. This solves a
lot of the problem.
But it may not be available in backward America.

On Nov 25, 9:24*am, mike wrote:
CraigT wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. *I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. *One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. *Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

I have no idea what I'm talking about, so some expert will likely
correct me...

It's not about hysteresis in the thermostat.
It's about balancing the heat supplied by the furnace with the heat
lost thru the walls, etc.

The longer the thermal time constant of your house, the more stable
the temperature will be. *So, Let the system stabilize at some
temperature.
For fixed external temperature, plot the internal temperature vs time
with the furnace off. *That'll give you the thermal time constant
of the house (at the location you monitor). *You want the cycle time
of the furnace to be much shorter than the time constant of the house.

Infiltration can also make a BIG difference. *You don't want any, for
this calculation...but you do want some for health. *It's a tradeoff.

I have a Honeywell TH8000 on a high-efficiency gas furnace.
It has a zillion setup functions that I never bothered to understand.
I don't know how it is supposed to work, but I can tell you the symptoms.

The temperature readout never changes (after it stabilizes).
I thought it was broke, so I put another thermometer next to it.
It don't change either (one degree F resolution).
A thermometer on the external wall next to the window does
change with the house's thermal time constant, local heat loss
and differences in air flow.

The thermostat modulates the furnace run time and the cycle time.

I have a PDA that tracks the on-time, cycle-time, and the duty factor
for each cycle. *It graphs the duty factor.
Duty factor is directly proportional to BTU/hour.

The thermostat runs the furnace for about 5 minutes and modulates the
cycle time. *As the in-out temperature difference increases, the
cycle time gets shorter. *When the cycle time gets down to about an
hour, the
on-time starts increasing as the cycle time decreases.

The graph of duty cycle tracks the internal-external temperature
difference (for fixed other heat sources).
When I turn off *my computer and go to bed, the duty factor goes up
to account for the 200W of heat that is no longer generated by the
computer system. *It's also interesting to watch the duty factor
track down during the day due to insolation, but with a phase
shift due to the thermal time constant of the house.

If I raise the setpoint, the duty factor overshoots and rings as
it settles to a new duty factor value consistent with the heat loss
at the new internal temperature. Classic feedback control system
behavior. *It's interesting that the thermostat temperature readout
changes rather quickly to the new setpoint value, but it keeps running
the furnace on that
first cycle. *Takes about 10 minutes of extra run time to bring the house
up one degree F. *The temperature readout does not overshoot,
but the duty factor does.

It seems to be more about tracking average heat loss than the hysteresis
of the thermostat. *The thermostat predicts future behavior based on
past behavior and applies minor tweaks based on sensed temperature
to keep it at the setpoint. *This is not your grandfather's mercury
switch thermostat.

Your fuel injected car works the same way. *For a given throttle
position, yes there are many other inputs too, the computer looks up an
injector pulse width in a table and runs with it. *The oxygen sensor
determines whether the mixture is rich or lean and tweaks the injector
on-time up and down slightly around the optimum point to keep the
average mixture about right. *It doesn't even try to make it exactly
right. *There isn't any hysteresis required, but the mixture "hunts"
around the correct value.

Tch. The heating plant size is calculated by working out the heat loss
from the house in the coldest anticipated conditions.
So it will be oversize in effect for less cold periods.
The ideal plant could be "turned down" to meet the reduced requirement
but this is backward America.
So the plant has to beturned on and off at intervals,leading to
inefficiency and a less comfortable environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turndown_ratio_(boilers)

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:38:37 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

I think, if you make theis thermostat cycle too quickly, you mightt
damage the compressor in the summer time, by what Mike called short
cycling. . Maybe if you can get it to work for heat, you would at
least need one thermostat for the furnace and the current stat for the
AC.,

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 02:03:41 -0800, mike wrote:

micky wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:05:09 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Hmmm,
Easiest is getting the blower run on low sped all the time kicking into
higher speed when heating or cooling. What style house, where is the
location? Jow big? My unit in summer or winter runs 2-3 times an hour.We
are comfy. Having a wireless 'stat I can move it where I want
for better comfort.

You remind me. I wanted to get a wireless stat, but didn't want to
spend the money. I think now I'm just going to get an X-10 that will
only turn the furnace house-current on and off. I'd replace the
"Emergency" toggle siwtch in the basement with an X-10 on-off switch,
which works remotely and locally.

At the very least that will turn the furnace off when I open the
window upstairs.

Any real downside to this plan?

Generally BAD idea.
RISK
If you have an electric furnace, you're probably ok.
If you have gas, I'd worry about it. Makes me nervous to pull the plug
on the control system of something that's on fire.

I apologize. I should have said what it was, OIL. Not so common
these days. AIUI, it doesn't burn unless the spark transformer is
running and providiing a continuous spark, and defintitely, no oil
comes out of the nozzle unless the electric pump is running. I have
on a couple occasions turned the switch off, and the furnace stops
immediately, including the noise of the fire.

I was also unclear in that I would still be using the same thermostat
I have now. It's connected to the furnace 24V transformer, of course.

The X-10 switch would be in place of hte 110 votlt AC toggle switch
which tunrs off all the power to the furnace (and all the power to the
AC except for the 220 volts that goes to the compressor, but is
controlled by the part of the furnace control board.) Nothing woudl
be changed about the setup except this switch.

Okay, iwrt your concern about it turning off without my turning it
off, I could put in a toggle swtich in parallel with the X-10 and if
I went out of town in the winter, turn that switch on, so the furnace
always had power. In fact I coulld leave the swtich on all winter.
It's only in the other three seasons that I open t he windows.

Does this relieve your concenrs or change your warnings at all?

If it's a heat pump, I'd worry about short-cycling the system
and burning up the compressor.

Thanks for raising this. I meant to say something aobut this to the
OP. Posted separately.

I read the read the rest and didnt' delete anything that follows.

The safety systems expect to have the power on. Yes, a well-designed
system will take care of that on power up...a well-designed system...
But you can bet the designers/evaluators did not contemplate someone
pulling the plug as a routine control input. Their bean counters were
much more concerned
with taking out that last penny of cost.

X10
There have been many variants of X10. My experience is with the older
stuff.
It's not secure. Depending on how far between the button and the switch,
Whether it's on the same side of the line, noise, etc.

it may or may not switch reliably.
And it can switch when you least expect it.
So if it's 99 reliable, you can expect that it will screw up only once
in a hundred times...like once a week???
It's not the things you plan for that hurt you. It's the unexpected
that causes the problems.
You need to be DARNED sure that nothing bad can happen while you're not
home.

If you're not there to dial 911, your house will burn further down.

Compare the cost of a proper thermostat with the cost of damage to
the system and/or your house.

The local control function works by supplying current when off and
sensing whether anything is there. Works well for a lamp. For an
electronic control, not so much. What happens when the controller
gets just enough juice to fsck things up?

Try this:
Hook a CFL lamp up to an appliance module and let it warm up.
When you switch off the relay, the local control current
charges up the cap in the CFL until the inverter turns on and
flashes the lamp. There are online instructions on how to pull
a component to disable this function, but you no longer have local
control.

If I were gonna cobble together something with X10, I'd use an isolation
relay in the control path from the existing thermostat, but before the
safety mechanisms in the controller.

On Nov 25, 6:48*am, micky wrote:
On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:38:37 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. *I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. *One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. *Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

I think, if you make theis thermostat cycle too quickly, you mightt
damage the compressor in the summer time, by what Mike called short
cycling. . *Maybe if you can get it to work for heat, you would at
least need one thermostat for the furnace and the current stat for the
AC.,



Thanks in advance.
Craig T- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any decent thermostat has a lockout period of 5 mins or more
during which it will not allow the AC to restart. That gives the
pressure time to equalize.
So, while cycling the compressor
with a differenct thermostat more frequently isn't
a good idea and will lead to more wearing over time, it isn't
going to just suddenly burn it out. The disadvantages to shorter
cycles for the AC are about the same as for the furnace.

For the OP, it would be interesting to know how much the
temperature is varying with the existing thermostat. You
say you want it to cycle more, but don't give data as to
what the temp swings are. Have you measured the actual
temps with a thermometer? And where are the objectionable
swings in temp occuring? At the thermostat or at some
room remote from the thermostat?

I've had a variety of
thermostats in my home over the years and I've yet to
find one that caused temp swings that were objectionable.
I have seen lots of situations where there were temp
problems caused by other factors, like unbalanced or
oversized systems. Which brings up another issue.
The typical thermostat is accurate enough compared to
the rest of the system. Meaning that the system is
balanced as best as possible so that when the temp
at the thermostat is X, it's close to X at all other points
in the house as well. That variation is probably more
than the hysteresis of the thermostat. So, even if you
put a super accurate thermostat on such a system
it's questionable if it will do anything to locations rooms
farther away from the thermostat. In fact, with shorter
run times it might make it worse.

As HomeGuy pointed out, the temp problems are classic
with an oversized system, but I guess we can rule that out
since you say the system is undersized and takes a
long time to raise the house temp up.

As far as thermostats go, the Honeywell VisionPro
models let you directly set the number of cycles per hour that
the system will run. I know you can set it to at least 5.
How exactly that then translates into the turn on/off points
isn't spec'd. But it is a totally different approach than other
thermostats I've seen.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 01:38:50 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

My furnace or AC is not oversized, every contractor that has seen my setup
has said that I'm close to being undersized. When my units run one of my
complaints is that they run for so long, they do not easily overcome the
sizing of my house. My house is only 10 years old and as I stated already I
have the thermostat already set to its most sensitive setting. I didn't say
it but it is on an interior wall. Like I said I want the heating and
cooling units to cycle more often for shorter times, I do not want to listen
to a fan running 24/7.

What I want to know is if there is a thermostat out there that is more
sensitive than the rest or can be set to be so? Like rather than settings
of 1,2,or 3 for sensitivity settings it allows for a more sensitive setting
like .5?

A new thermostat is not going to solve the problem. If the heater is
sized that it needs to run a long period to put enough heat into the
house, shutting it off sooner will only make it cooler and have it
work longer for the next cycle.

Why not tackle the real problem, the noise? That seems to be what is
really bothering you. Perhaps you can put in a variable speed blower
or otherwise change the speed of what you have. Or change a duct of
vent that is making the noise. Or box in and insulate the unit.

Regardless of the thermostat, the burner has to run a given amount of
time to produce the heat needed to warm your house. A more sensitive
thermostat may break it into smaller periods, but it still has to run
the same total time. If, in an hour it now runs 10 on, five off, you
may be able to get it to run five on, but it will still have to run
the same 40 minutes total.

You may want to consider putting in some supplementary heat in the
room you occupy so the furnace runs less keeping the rest of the house
warm. A small electric space heater will help and can be noiseless.

On Nov 25, 7:57*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 01:38:50 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

My furnace or AC is not oversized, every contractor that has seen my setup
has said that I'm close to being undersized. *When my units run one of my
complaints is that they run for so long, they do not easily overcome the
sizing of my house. My house is only 10 years old and as I stated already I
have the thermostat already set to its most sensitive setting. I didn't say
it but it is on an interior wall. *Like I said I want the heating and
cooling units to cycle more often for shorter times, I do not want to listen
to a fan running 24/7.

What I want to know is if there is a thermostat out there that is more
sensitive than the rest or can be set to be so? *Like rather than settings
of 1,2,or 3 for sensitivity settings it allows for a more sensitive setting
like .5?

A new thermostat is not going to solve the problem. *If the heater is
sized that it needs to run a long period to put enough heat into the
house, shutting it off sooner will only make it cooler and have it
work longer for the next cycle.

Why not tackle the real problem, the noise? *That seems to be what is
really bothering you. * Perhaps you can put in a variable speed blower
or otherwise change the speed of what you have. Or change a duct of
vent that is making the noise. *Or box in and insulate the unit.

Regardless of the thermostat, the burner has to run a given amount of
time to produce the heat needed to warm your house. *A more sensitive
thermostat may break it into smaller periods, but it still has to run
the same total time. *If, in an hour it now runs 10 on, five off, you
may be able to get it to run five on, but it will still have to run
the same 40 minutes total.

You may want to consider putting in some supplementary heat in the
room you occupy so the furnace runs less keeping the rest of the house
warm. *A small electric space heater will help and can be noiseless.

Ed, I think his comment about the fan noise was in reply
to HomeGuy who suggested one solution might
be to run the fan continously. The OP's real issue appears
to be unacceptable temp swings.

It would be interesting to have the actual data, ie what
those swings are, which I think is key. If the temp is
going from 69 to 72 at the thermostat, then just about any digital
thermostat will do much better. If it's going from 70 to 71,
and he finds that unacceptable,
then I doubt any will fix it. Also it's key if the temp problem
is at the thermostat or in some room far away from it, etc.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:57:18 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 01:38:50 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

My furnace or AC is not oversized, every contractor that has seen my setup
has said that I'm close to being undersized. When my units run one of my
complaints is that they run for so long, they do not easily overcome the
sizing of my house. My house is only 10 years old and as I stated already I
have the thermostat already set to its most sensitive setting. I didn't say
it but it is on an interior wall. Like I said I want the heating and
cooling units to cycle more often for shorter times, I do not want to listen
to a fan running 24/7.

What I want to know is if there is a thermostat out there that is more
sensitive than the rest or can be set to be so? Like rather than settings
of 1,2,or 3 for sensitivity settings it allows for a more sensitive setting
like .5?

A new thermostat is not going to solve the problem. If the heater is
sized that it needs to run a long period to put enough heat into the
house, shutting it off sooner will only make it cooler and have it
work longer for the next cycle.

Surely the change he talks about wouldn't make the furnace turn off
sooner. I think it would make it turn back on sooner.

Why not tackle the real problem, the noise? That seems to be what is
really bothering you. Perhaps you can put in a variable speed blower

My old furnace came with a three speed blower, changed by chainging
which wire was connected. Unfortunately, it was already set to the
slowest speed.

or otherwise change the speed of what you have. Or change a duct of
vent that is making the noise. Or box in and insulate the unit.

Regardless of the thermostat, the burner has to run a given amount of
time to produce the heat needed to warm your house. A more sensitive
thermostat may break it into smaller periods, but it still has to run
the same total time. If, in an hour it now runs 10 on, five off, you
may be able to get it to run five on, but it will still have to run
the same 40 minutes total.

You may want to consider putting in some supplementary heat in the
room you occupy so the furnace runs less keeping the rest of the house
warm. A small electric space heater will help and can be noiseless.

I've read this thread, and a couple questions come to mind.

What's the goal, here? Stable indoor temps? If that's the
case, I remember hearing of two stage furnace, have a high
and low output. Runs longer on the low output, and helps
more evenly match the heat loss of the house.

Sounds like you want short, rapid heating cycles, with the
fan off, between cycles. What are you trying to accomplish?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"CraigT" wrote in message
...
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my
furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up
for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15
years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were
electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the
furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is
there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be
more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

CraigT used improper usenet message composition style not only by
top-poasting, but also by full-quoting:

My house is only 10 years old and as I stated already I have the
thermostat already set to its most sensitive setting.

For one thing, a 10 year-old house should be super-efficient in terms of
insulation, heat loss and being sealed for air leaks and outside air
infiltration. This should make it LESS likely that you'd have comfort
problems caused by the cycling of your HVAC system.

Second, I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say that your
thermostat is set to it most "sensitive" setting. I'm not aware of a
thermostat that has a sensitivity setting, unless this is the SPAN
setting I was talking about in my previous post. Please either confirm
that, or explain how this sensitivity setting works. If your current
thermostat has a SPAN setting, tell us what those settings are, and
which of them you've tried.

My furnace or AC is not oversized, every contractor that has seen
my setup has said that I'm close to being undersized. When my
units run one of my complaints is that they run for so long, they
do not easily overcome the sizing of my house.

Not knowing where on earth you are, you could either be using your A/C
or your furnace right now. So it would help to know which of those
you'd like to fix for the moment.

As well, what type of furnace do you have? Is it forced-air natural
gas? Is it a heat pump? Is it electric?

I didn't say it but it is on an interior wall.

That's fine, but it could still be in a poor location. For example, is
it right over or near an air supply duct or vent? Can the sun shine
directly on it? Is it in a secluded corner where it can't get a good
sense of ambient air temperature?

Like I said I want the heating and cooling units to cycle more
often for shorter times, I do not want to listen to a fan
running 24/7.

If your house is only 10 years old, then almost certainly your HVAC fan
is multi-speed - or at least it's capable of multi-speed operation if
it's connected to an appropriate wall-mounted control switch.

And I have news for you. If you think that you'd be more satisfied with
a furnace that goes on and off every few minutes vs having a constant
(and possibly quieter low-speed) fan running all the time, then you'd
probably be wrong.

What I want to know is if there is a thermostat out there that is
more sensitive than the rest or can be set to be so? Like rather
than settings of 1, 2, or 3 for sensitivity settings it allows
for a more sensitive setting like .5?

I would think it would be ridiculous to have a span of 0.5 degrees F.

Also - note this:

If your thermostat has a Celcius/Farenheight setting, then it might be
that if it's set to Celcius, your SPAN option of 1 would be 1 degree
celcius, which is almost 2 degrees farenheight. So set your thermostat
to Farenheight so that your "sensitivity" setting of 1 becomes 1 degree
farenheight.

If your furnace really is undersized, then it should basically be on all
the time (and not be able to bring the house up to the temperature you
want). I doubt that's whats really happening, because your system
appears to be cycling.

Unless you have a monster house, or your house was improperly built,
insulated or ducted, then it's hard to imagine what an undersized
furnace looks like for a 10 year-old house. Some ducting jobs can be
horrible - wrong size ducts, poor sealing between joints, garbage left
in the ductwork while the house was being built. Maybe that's your
problem (assuming you have forced-air natural gas furnace that is).

Home Guy wrote:

If your furnace really is undersized, then it should basically be
on all the time (and not be able to bring the house up to the
temperature you want). I doubt that's whats really happening,
because your system appears to be cycling.

Of course - you asked a bunch of contractors and they all say it's
undersized. That's because they all want to sell you a new furnace.

This is the standard answer for an HVAC contractor - "You need a new
system".

On Nov 25, 9:17*am, Home Guy wrote:
CraigT used improper usenet message composition style not only by
top-poasting, but also by full-quoting:

My house is only 10 years old and as I stated already I have the
thermostat already set to its most sensitive setting.

For one thing, a 10 year-old house should be super-efficient in terms of
insulation, heat loss and being sealed for air leaks and outside air
infiltration. *This should make it LESS likely that you'd have comfort
problems caused by the cycling of your HVAC system.

Second, I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say that your
thermostat is set to it most "sensitive" setting. *I'm not aware of a
thermostat that has a sensitivity setting, unless this is the SPAN
setting I was talking about in my previous post. *Please either confirm
that, or explain how this sensitivity setting works. *If your current
thermostat has a SPAN setting, tell us what those settings are, and
which of them you've tried.

My furnace or AC is not oversized, every contractor that has seen
my setup has said that I'm close to being undersized. *When my
units run one of my complaints is that they run for so long, they
do not easily overcome the sizing of my house.

Not knowing where on earth you are, you could either be using your A/C
or your furnace right now. *So it would help to know which of those
you'd like to fix for the moment.

As well, what type of furnace do you have? *Is it forced-air natural
gas? *Is it a heat pump? *Is it electric?

I didn't say it but it is on an interior wall.

That's fine, but it could still be in a poor location. *For example, is
it right over or near an air supply duct or vent? *Can the sun shine
directly on it? *Is it in a secluded corner where it can't get a good
sense of ambient air temperature?

Like I said I want the heating and cooling units to cycle more
often for shorter times, I do not want to listen to a fan
running 24/7.

If your house is only 10 years old, then almost certainly your HVAC fan
is multi-speed - or at least it's capable of multi-speed operation if
it's connected to an appropriate wall-mounted control switch.

And I have news for you. *If you think that you'd be more satisfied with
a furnace that goes on and off every few minutes vs having a constant
(and possibly quieter low-speed) fan running all the time, then you'd
probably be wrong.

What I want to know is if there is a thermostat out there that is
more sensitive than the rest or can be set to be so? *Like rather
than settings of 1, 2, or 3 for sensitivity settings it allows
for a more sensitive setting like .5?

I would think it would be ridiculous to have a span of 0.5 degrees F.

Also - note this:

If your thermostat has a Celcius/Farenheight setting, then it might be
that if it's set to Celcius, your SPAN option of 1 would be 1 degree
celcius, which is almost 2 degrees farenheight. *So set your thermostat
to Farenheight so that your "sensitivity" setting of 1 becomes 1 degree
farenheight.

If your furnace really is undersized, then it should basically be on all
the time (and not be able to bring the house up to the temperature you
want). *I doubt that's whats really happening, because your system
appears to be cycling.

That depends on how cold it is outside. The above
problem would only present itself when it's really
cold outside.





Unless you have a monster house, or your house was improperly built,
insulated or ducted, then it's hard to imagine what an undersized
furnace looks like for a 10 year-old house.

It used to be that HVAC guys chose to err on the side
of possibly making the system too large, since that is
less likely to result in bitching. But here in NJ I've seen
a trend to err on the other side now with systems that
are too small. One house I know of in particular is
Energy Star certified, about 7 years old. Not sure exactly
what role that plays in it


*Some ducting jobs can be
horrible - wrong size ducts, poor sealing between joints, garbage left
in the ductwork while the house was being built. *Maybe that's your
problem (assuming you have forced-air natural gas furnace that is).

Yes, I've seen all that too. House I was talking about above
has one register in a hallway that you can see is not connected
to a duct. And two registers that are virtually right above the
furnace put out almost no air. Which is hard to diagnose because
the idiot former owner had the basement drywalled. Never saw
anything like it. Get this. They drywalled around the furnace, hot
water heaters, etc. The guy must have been paid by the hour or
something with all the cuts, dips, etc. You or I would just put up a
utility room around the that area because it's useless anyhow.

Poasting? Is that a word?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


CraigT used improper usenet message composition style not
only by
top-poasting, but also by full-quoting:

Drywall around the furnace? I'd be thinkign lack of return
air flow.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

Yes, I've seen all that too. House I was talking about
above
has one register in a hallway that you can see is not
connected
to a duct. And two registers that are virtually right
above the
furnace put out almost no air. Which is hard to diagnose
because
the idiot former owner had the basement drywalled. Never
saw
anything like it. Get this. They drywalled around the
furnace, hot
water heaters, etc. The guy must have been paid by the hour
or
something with all the cuts, dips, etc. You or I would just
put up a
utility room around the that area because it's useless
anyhow.

CraigT wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T


Hmmm,
Actually and simply no matter how sensitive the 'stat, electro-
mechanical device such s furnace, ac unit won't respond with
equal sensitivity. Your system and your house itself need energy audit
may be. Up here we can no longer install a furnace with efficiency
rating less than 90% by law.

micky wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 02:03:41 -0800, mike wrote:

micky wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:05:09 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Hmmm,
Easiest is getting the blower run on low sped all the time kicking into
higher speed when heating or cooling. What style house, where is the
location? Jow big? My unit in summer or winter runs 2-3 times an hour.We
are comfy. Having a wireless 'stat I can move it where I want
for better comfort.
You remind me. I wanted to get a wireless stat, but didn't want to
spend the money. I think now I'm just going to get an X-10 that will
only turn the furnace house-current on and off. I'd replace the
"Emergency" toggle siwtch in the basement with an X-10 on-off switch,
which works remotely and locally.

At the very least that will turn the furnace off when I open the
window upstairs.

Any real downside to this plan?
Generally BAD idea.
RISK
If you have an electric furnace, you're probably ok.
If you have gas, I'd worry about it. Makes me nervous to pull the plug
on the control system of something that's on fire.

I apologize. I should have said what it was, OIL. Not so common
these days. AIUI,

THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM...AIUI!!!
We understand almost zero, cause the OP disclosed little.
The things you understand aren't the things that will bite you.
It's all those little things you don't understand or interpret
wrongly. An HVAC system is a SYSTEM. The parts work together.
When you start messing with it, unintended consequences occur.

it doesn't burn unless the spark transformer is
running and providiing a continuous spark, and defintitely, no oil
comes out of the nozzle unless the electric pump is running. I have
on a couple occasions turned the switch off, and the furnace stops
immediately, including the noise of the fire.

I was also unclear in that I would still be using the same thermostat
I have now. It's connected to the furnace 24V transformer, of course.

The X-10 switch would be in place of hte 110 votlt AC toggle switch
which tunrs off all the power to the furnace (and all the power to the
AC except for the 220 volts that goes to the compressor, but is
controlled by the part of the furnace control board.) Nothing woudl
be changed about the setup except this switch.

Okay, iwrt your concern about it turning off without my turning it
off, I could put in a toggle swtich in parallel with the X-10 and if
I went out of town in the winter, turn that switch on, so the furnace
always had power. In fact I coulld leave the swtich on all winter.
It's only in the other three seasons that I open t he windows.

Does this relieve your concenrs or change your warnings at all?

My concerns don't need to be relieved, cause I'd never do something like
that.

I'll go off on a short rant about interweb advice.

If a person knew what to do, he'd not be here asking the question.
He gets conflicting authoritative advice from people who've never seen
his system
and have no idea how it's configured.
If the wrong answer results in your viewing the wrong movie, it's not
such a big deal.
If the wrong answer sets your house on fire, it IS a BIG DEAL.
I don't mean wrong according to accepted practice for a skilled licensed
contractor using components approved for the application and inspected
by the
local building inspector.
I mean wrong relative to an unknown system of unknown configuration being
modified by a person of questionable skill and knowledge according to
random interweb advice...
They wouldn't be here if they knew what to do. They also have no way of
determining whether a particular chunk of advice will be helpful or
harmful in THEIR situation.

While it is statistically unlikely that the place will catch fire,
that's small comfort to the person who IS on fire.

Most everything you
buy today has multiple safety systems and is thoroughly tested for safety by
independent agencies.
Yet we still find the need for multiple smoke detectors and the fire
department on speed dial.

One has to look at the cost benefit ratio. Do you REALLY want it badly
enough to
risk life and limb. Is it really that hard to walk down the hall
and flip the switch on the thermostat to turn off the system?
Just 'cuz it would be cool doesn't mean it's
the right thing to do.

Often, the best advice you could give is, "don't mess with stuff that
breathes fire and has the (however slim) possibility to burn down
the biggest investment you ever made and put Granny in the morgue."

Want a second opinion? Call up your insurance carrier. Tell them you're
gonna mess with the control system on your furnace by adding some
unreliable stuff you read about on the web. You won't have the result
inspected. Ask how that affects your fire insurance. Maybe you can
purchase an "idiot" rider. Better to learn
the answer now. It's too late when you're standing in a pile of
smoldering rubble and the insurance adjuster is shaking his head".



Call me conservative...



If it's a heat pump, I'd worry about short-cycling the system
and burning up the compressor.

Thanks for raising this. I meant to say something aobut this to the
OP. Posted separately.

I read the read the rest and didnt' delete anything that follows.

The safety systems expect to have the power on. Yes, a well-designed
system will take care of that on power up...a well-designed system...
But you can bet the designers/evaluators did not contemplate someone
pulling the plug as a routine control input. Their bean counters were
much more concerned
with taking out that last penny of cost.

X10
There have been many variants of X10. My experience is with the older
stuff.
It's not secure. Depending on how far between the button and the switch,
Whether it's on the same side of the line, noise, etc.

it may or may not switch reliably.
And it can switch when you least expect it.
So if it's 99 reliable, you can expect that it will screw up only once
in a hundred times...like once a week???
It's not the things you plan for that hurt you. It's the unexpected
that causes the problems.
You need to be DARNED sure that nothing bad can happen while you're not
home.

If you're not there to dial 911, your house will burn further down.

Compare the cost of a proper thermostat with the cost of damage to
the system and/or your house.

The local control function works by supplying current when off and
sensing whether anything is there. Works well for a lamp. For an
electronic control, not so much. What happens when the controller
gets just enough juice to fsck things up?

Try this:
Hook a CFL lamp up to an appliance module and let it warm up.
When you switch off the relay, the local control current
charges up the cap in the CFL until the inverter turns on and
flashes the lamp. There are online instructions on how to pull
a component to disable this function, but you no longer have local
control.

If I were gonna cobble together something with X10, I'd use an isolation
relay in the control path from the existing thermostat, but before the
safety mechanisms in the controller.

" used improper usenet message composition style
by unnecessarily full-quoting:

If your furnace really is undersized, then it should basically be
on all the time (and not be able to bring the house up to the
temperature you want). I doubt that's whats really happening,
because your system appears to be cycling.

That depends on how cold it is outside. The above problem would
only present itself when it's really cold outside.

The way the OP is describing the situation, it seems that the
contractors are telling him that the reason for his environmental
discomfort is because is furnace is undersized (which would be a
bull-**** reason for such a problem).

You will note that the OP is not posting this question in the middle of
winter - and he's not complaining that his home is generally colder than
he wants it to be.

it's hard to imagine what an undersized furnace looks like
for a 10 year-old house.

But here in NJ I've seen a trend to err on the other side now
with systems that are too small.

And would you expect comfort problems in November with an undersized
furnace?

Or in January?

We don't even know where this guy is, or that he has a nat-gas furnace.

Christopher Young top-poasted:

Poasting? Is that a word?

It's meant to infer a klownish posting style.

On 11/24/2011 11:38 PM, CraigT wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T


I believe you want smaller temperature swings, right? I have electric
resistive hot air heat and I bought a Honeywell CT31A1003 thermostat.
It is not programmable. It's a simple design and uses two magnets to
help it "click" from on to off to on...

There are two screws set from the factory for on and off positions. All
you need to do is adjust the screws so the two contact points are closer
together. Simple. Now my heat turns on and off with smaller
temperature swings. The only tricky part is setting the heat
anticipator properly and that took a little tweaking to get it to my
satisfaction.

CraigT wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I've read this thread, and a couple questions come to mind.

What's the goal, here? Stable indoor temps? If that's the
case, I remember hearing of two stage furnace, have a high
and low output. Runs longer on the low output, and helps
more evenly match the heat loss of the house.

Yes, slightly more stable temps. I am not looking for anything drastic.
Like I said, most electronic thermostats have adjustments for sesitivity, I
just want one setting more sensitive than the most sensitive setting I have
had in the past. I'm really not sure what the settings H1, H2, or H3 mean
exactly when it comes to temp. swings. If H1 allows a .5F swing and H2
allows for a 1F swing and H3 allows for a 1.5F swing then I guess what I'm
looking for is something less than .5F If H1 means 1F swing, H2 means
1.25F swing, and H3 means a 1.5F swing, I guess I'm looking for a setting
which allows for a swing of less than 1F.

There's a gradient across the room due to losses on the outside walls.
There's a gradient top to bottom due to stratification.
The air coming out of the heater vent is a LOT hotter than the setpoint.
There's infiltration.
You probably have a single point temperature measurement for the whole
house.
Given all this, I'd be AMAZED if you could tell the difference between
..5 and 1.0 degrees hysteresis in the thermostat.
Methinks you're addressing the wrong problem.

I think the Honeywell VisionPro 8800 will do what you ask. I just don't
think it will solve your problem.

I have to believe that there has to be some variation between the
manufacturers of thermostats and that there is one out there more suited to
me or maybe one with much greater control, but not to the point of causing
damage to the system.

On 11/25/2011 1:55 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:11:12 -0500,
wrote:
....

I just want a little more cycling than the average person.


Know what you mean. I don't like short cycling either.
....

You read him wardsback...he does want very short cycling.

--

On 11/25/2011 08:17 AM, Home Guy wrote:
snip

That's fine, but it could still be in a poor location. For example, is
it right over or near an air supply duct or vent? Can the sun shine
directly on it? Is it in a secluded corner where it can't get a good
sense of ambient air temperature?

snip

Is the wall behind it sealed? If not, cold air can travel through the
wall space and dramatically affect thermostat operation.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:29:36 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/25/2011 1:55 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:11:12 -0500,
wrote:
...

I just want a little more cycling than the average person.


Know what you mean. I don't like short cycling either.
...

You read him wardsback...he does want very short cycling.

Then I take it it back I said whatever. (-:

--Vic

Plenty of difference. Different type of equipment need more
or less time to get started heating or cooling. Might not be
able to start and stop on a dime.

At the moment, it sounds to me that you are asking the
equipment to do some thing it is not designed to do, nor
capable of, doing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"CraigT" wrote in message
...


As well, what type of furnace do you have? Is it
forced-air natural
gas? Is it a heat pump? Is it electric?

What difference would it make what kind of heating and
cooling I have. The
system is functioning properly, just not the way I want it
to.

Sounds crazy, to me. And unreasonable. If it was reasonable,
the thermostat makers would already be making it.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"CraigT" wrote in message
...


And I have news for you. If you think that you'd be more
satisfied with
a furnace that goes on and off every few minutes vs having
a constant
(and possibly quieter low-speed) fan running all the time,
then you'd
probably be wrong.

I am not looking for something wild and crazy. I'm just
asking for a little
more of an adjustment than the amount that the average
thermostat provides.

It sounds like you have a drafty house.
If so, the only way to make it more comfortable is to fix the ****ing
air leaks.

On 11/24/2011 8:38 PM, CraigT wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T



sounds like your system is too big. You might explore having the blower
speed turned down.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Nov 24, 11:38*pm, "CraigT" wrote:
Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. *I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. *One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. *Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

My brother has a similar problem. I told hime get rid of the freakin'
jalousy windows. They may as well be open for all the good they are
doing. Be cautious of HVAC guys who dont consider how your home is
insulated.

Jimmie

CraigT wrote:

There is a secondary menu you can bring up by holding down two
buttons at the same time where you can choose H1, H2, or H3,
C1, C2, or C3. H1 C1 gives the shortest cyles, both running
and non-running, for Heating and Cooling and coversely H3 C3
gives the longest cycles. Both elctronic thermostats I've
owned had these sub menus.

Well, if you gave the make/model numbers of these thermostats, we could
obtain the documentation for them on the web and figure out what the
H1/C1 settings correspond to in terms of actual degrees (C or F).

As well, what type of furnace do you have? Is it forced-air
natural gas? Is it a heat pump? Is it electric?

What difference would it make what kind of heating and cooling I have.
The system is functioning properly, just not the way I want it to.

Different systems (particularly heating systems) have different
time-constants and different abilities to inject heat into your living
space. We are talking about a feedback loop between the thermostat and
the furnace (or heat-source) and you seem to have a problem about the
responsiveness or over-shoot/under-shoot of this feedback loop.

If your house is only 10 years old, then almost certainly your
HVAC fan is multi-speed - or at least it's capable of multi-speed
operation if it's connected to an appropriate wall-mounted
control switch.

It is not multi-speed.

So, you have a pretty basic furnace (a "builder's furnace") which is
what the contractor was able to pull off the back of someone's truck and
throw into the basement.

I'm going to guess that you're not the original owner of the house, and
now that you've been living in it for 6 months you don't like how the
HVAC system is working compared to your last house.

I am not looking for something wild and crazy. I'm just asking
for a little more of an adjustment than the amount that the
average thermostat provides.

Go to home despot or Lowes or some other hardware store and browse
through the thermostats and look for one that specifically lets you set
the span or hysteresis IN TERMS OF DEGREES C or F and not some unknown
parameter or value.

You might also want to do this:

Go and buy a $10 indoor digital thermometer that can track the MIN and
MAX temperature and display it to you at the push of a button. Set this
thermometer on the coffee table next to your favorite arm chair, wait a
few hours and hit the RESET button, and leave it alone for a few days.
After that, check what it recorded for the Min and Max temperature and
come back here and post those numbers.

If those numbers are Min: 66 / Max: 74, then yes, you have a problem.
If the numbers are 69/71, then I'd say what are you complaining about.

One final question: Have you programmed your current thermostat to turn
down the temperature during the night (say, from midnight to 6 am) to
something like 65 or 66, and then raise the temp up to 68 or 70 during
the day?

Ted wrote:
It sounds like you have a drafty house.
If so, the only way to make it more comfortable is to fix the ****ing
air leaks.



What?
Drafty in 10 year old house? Come on!

On 11/25/2011 8:52 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Ted wrote:
It sounds like you have a drafty house.
If so, the only way to make it more comfortable is to fix the ****ing
air leaks.



What?
Drafty in 10 year old house? Come on!

More common than you might think.

Ever watch Mike Holmes / Holmes Inspection?

Most construction companies today only stay in business for a year or
two, then they fold so they don't have to make good on their crappy
work. The residential construction industry is severely infected with
liars, cheats and drunken retards.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:38:37 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

Who cares about a thermostat? I'm looking for a "more sensitive"
WOMAN!

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:38:37 -0500, "CraigT"
wrote:

Yes, I realize what I'm asking for will mean that my furnace/AC will be
running less efficiently, but I'm willing to give this up for comfort. I've
had two thermostats in two different homes over the last 15 years. One was
a Robert Shaw and now I have a Honeywell, both were electronic and when they
were set to their most sensitive settings which caused the furnace/AC to
cycle more neither cycled as much as I wished they had. Is there a brand or
maybe a particular thermostat out there that is known to be more sensitive
than others?

Thanks in advance.
Craig T

Who cares about a thermostat? I'm looking for a "more sensitive"
WOMAN!