Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

** It's hard to tell, but those conductors look like #2 aluminum, which
would only be good for 100 amp. I don't think you're going to find anything
to retrofit breakers into that cabinet, but there aren't that many loads in
the panel, so it wouldn't be too hard to replace it altogether. You will
have to cut about 8" of wall out directly above the panel, to get the cables
out and into the new box.

On 5/30/2011 6:10 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

** It's hard to tell, but those conductors look like #2 aluminum, which
would only be good for 100 amp. I don't think you're going to find anything
to retrofit breakers into that cabinet, but there aren't that many loads in
the panel, so it wouldn't be too hard to replace it altogether. You will
have to cut about 8" of wall out directly above the panel, to get the cables
out and into the new box.


Those big lines look like the old tinned copper conductors to me, not
aluminum. I see it a lot on older copper wiring perhaps because a lot
of common electrical practice in years past was to solder connections
because there were probably only ceramic wire nuts available for small
connections and solder lugs for larger connections. I've seen a lot of
old house wiring that was soldered and insulated with friction tape.

TDD

On 5/30/2011 6:10 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

** It's hard to tell, but those conductors look like #2 aluminum, which
would only be good for 100 amp. I don't think you're going to find anything
to retrofit breakers into that cabinet, but there aren't that many loads in
the panel, so it wouldn't be too hard to replace it altogether. You will
have to cut about 8" of wall out directly above the panel, to get the cables
out and into the new box.


Oops! On second thought, looking at the neutral, it could be aluminum. :-)

TDD

On Mon, 30 May 2011 19:47:28 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 5/30/2011 6:10 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

** It's hard to tell, but those conductors look like #2 aluminum, which
would only be good for 100 amp. I don't think you're going to find anything
to retrofit breakers into that cabinet, but there aren't that many loads in
the panel, so it wouldn't be too hard to replace it altogether. You will
have to cut about 8" of wall out directly above the panel, to get the cables
out and into the new box.


Oops! On second thought, looking at the neutral, it could be aluminum. :-)

TDD
I am pretty sure the wire is aluminum. The insulation almost looks
like cloth, but I can't be sure. I am sure it is old.

Thanks everyone

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 May 2011 19:47:28 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 5/30/2011 6:10 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

** It's hard to tell, but those conductors look like #2 aluminum, which
would only be good for 100 amp. I don't think you're going to find
anything
to retrofit breakers into that cabinet, but there aren't that many loads
in
the panel, so it wouldn't be too hard to replace it altogether. You will
have to cut about 8" of wall out directly above the panel, to get the
cables
out and into the new box.


Oops! On second thought, looking at the neutral, it could be aluminum. :-)

TDD
I am pretty sure the wire is aluminum. The insulation almost looks
like cloth, but I can't be sure. I am sure it is old.

Thanks everyone

** I think it's a cloth wrapping over rubber

On Mon, 30 May 2011 21:39:32 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I am pretty sure the wire is aluminum. The insulation almost looks
like cloth, but I can't be sure. I am sure it is old.

Thanks everyone

** I think it's a cloth wrapping over rubber

I really hope there is rubber under, and I don't doubt you. I looks
like if you just touch it, the insulation would fall off.

Thanks

On May 30, 5:50*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADhttp://i...m/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

I PITY THE FOOL ! (TEAR IT DOWN, START OVER AGAIN.)
THE REST OF THE ANCIENT WIRING CANNOT BE IN BETTER SHAPE.
IT IS A VERITABLE AN INSURERS NIGHTMARE...
I HAVE SEEN GHETTOES WITH SAFER ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS.
BOOWAHAHAHAHA
SHEESH!
TGITM

On May 30, 5:50*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADhttp://i...m/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

BESIDES UPGRADING THAT PANEL WILL ONLY BE A TEMPORARY REMEDY.
I WOULDNT RISK MY WORSE ENEMIES LIFE ON SUCH A RENTAL, IF HE DARED TO
RENT IT FROM ME.
I DO HAVE STANDARDS......TELL HIM OT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN IT ALL OUT ..
AND TO STOP BEING SUCH A SLUM LORD - A CHEAP A$$ FIX JUST WONT DO.

PAT ECUM
TGITM

ECTO- ELECTRICIAN TO THE STARS.
BOOWAHAHAHAHAHA
NO FOR REAL, DONT MESS WITH THAT...TEAR IT OUT AND DONATE IT TO A
HOMELAND MUSEUM.

On May 30, 4:50*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADhttp://i...m/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

There are plug-in fuse replacements that are circuit breakers. That
would be a LOT CHEAPER than what you are proposing, and should work
just about as well. It also saves you from having to get a permit and
having to update all the wiring to the present NEC codes.

On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 14:36:01 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.

Legally the only issue is if the box is big enough. A sanity check
would be to see what box size C/H puts that panelboard in and see if
yours has the same basic dimensions. The question is total cubic
inches and wire bending space at the breakers (usually width) . If it
was close I would think about going for it ...

BUT,

you might find a complete load center with a handful of breakers in a
package deal is cheaper than the retro panelboard and you will still
need breakers.
The internet can be your friend on this. I found a deal on the net for
a 150a Square D QO bundled with a bunch of breakers, shipped, cheaper
than Home Depot could do for Homeline and no breakers.

If you don't have a business relationship with a supply house (AKA
discount) they probably won't be close because they usually cite list
price for strangers. YMMV Times are tough so call, but call knowing
exactly what you want. Act like a pro they might treat you like one.


**He would have to find the guts, and the cover, to fit the existing box.
The box he has is huge, but I doubt you can find a retro fit for it. He
also has to determine the size of the entrance cables. The current fuse box
is a split buss, 150 amp, but those SE conductors don't look like 2/0 to me.
He may wind up with a 20 circuit 100 amp panel, which will be considerably
smaller than what he has

On Tue, 31 May 2011 16:24:54 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 31 May 2011 14:36:01 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.

Legally the only issue is if the box is big enough. A sanity check
would be to see what box size C/H puts that panelboard in and see if
yours has the same basic dimensions. The question is total cubic
inches and wire bending space at the breakers (usually width) . If it
was close I would think about going for it ...

BUT,

you might find a complete load center with a handful of breakers in a
package deal is cheaper than the retro panelboard and you will still
need breakers.
The internet can be your friend on this. I found a deal on the net for
a 150a Square D QO bundled with a bunch of breakers, shipped, cheaper
than Home Depot could do for Homeline and no breakers.

If you don't have a business relationship with a supply house (AKA
discount) they probably won't be close because they usually cite list
price for strangers. YMMV Times are tough so call, but call knowing
exactly what you want. Act like a pro they might treat you like one.


**He would have to find the guts, and the cover, to fit the existing box.
The box he has is huge, but I doubt you can find a retro fit for it. He
also has to determine the size of the entrance cables. The current fuse box
is a split buss, 150 amp, but those SE conductors don't look like 2/0 to me.
He may wind up with a 20 circuit 100 amp panel, which will be considerably
smaller than what he has

I am afraid you are going to be right, but that is not what I wanted
to hear.

I actually told that to the girl at the supply house. I told her that
I had already talked to two people that said they didn't make them. I
wanted to talk to someone else. We had a pretty good laugh.

On Tue, 31 May 2011 16:24:54 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

**He would have to find the guts, and the cover, to fit the existing box.
The box he has is huge, but I doubt you can find a retro fit for it. He
also has to determine the size of the entrance cables. The current fuse box
is a split buss, 150 amp, but those SE conductors don't look like 2/0 to me.
He may wind up with a 20 circuit 100 amp panel, which will be considerably
smaller than what he has

Oh and the service entrance cable. I suggested that the owner of the
house stop by the supply house and talk a guy into giving him a 6 inch
piece of #2 aluminum and we could compare it to what he has.

He is a carpenter, but he works for Cleveland Electric here in
Georgia. He should be able to get a small piece before we go any
farther.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 16:24:54 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

**He would have to find the guts, and the cover, to fit the existing box.
The box he has is huge, but I doubt you can find a retro fit for it. He
also has to determine the size of the entrance cables. The current fuse
box
is a split buss, 150 amp, but those SE conductors don't look like 2/0 to
me.
He may wind up with a 20 circuit 100 amp panel, which will be considerably
smaller than what he has

Oh and the service entrance cable. I suggested that the owner of the
house stop by the supply house and talk a guy into giving him a 6 inch
piece of #2 aluminum and we could compare it to what he has.

He is a carpenter, but he works for Cleveland Electric here in
Georgia. He should be able to get a small piece before we go any
farther.

**I love that: I only want to talk to the guy that says what I want to
hear... Don't we all

**It's going to be hard to make a comparison unless he gets a piece of #2
from an SE cable. In a standard conductor, the individual strands are round.
In an SE cable, they're actually flat on the outside circumference. If you
look at it cross sectionally, it's like a solid round core of aluminum

Metspitzer wrote:
.....,
He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

I don't know the answers to the electrical questions, but if your friend is
planning on renting the property out, he may want to consider having a
licensed electrician do a whole new service or at least do the changeover to
circuit breakers.

One reason is that since it is an income property, the cost should be a
deductible business expense for tax purposes. Another reason is that his
insurance carrier may require that. And, a third reason has to do with
liability issues in the event of a fire etc. in the future -- an insurance
company may deny the claim if he (or an unlicensed person) did the
electrical work; and he or any unlicensed person who did the electrical work
could be personally liable for any damages or harm that results.

He may already know about these types of issues if he has other rental
properties; but, if this is his first venture into the rental/landlord
business, he may want to start learning as much as he can about that. Once
way to get more information etc. would be to join a local real estate
investor association or group. Here is a link to some that are in Georgia:
http://www.creonline.com/real-estate-clubs/ga.html . I think that usually
the groups that have "REIA" (Real Estate Investor Association) in their name
tend to have more useful information a resources for their members.

Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl
Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.


How about a new GE panel? The holes might even line up :-)

There's nothing wrong with fuses as long as they have the right sizes
installed; I wouldn't touch it if you have enough capacity. What are
the main fuses in that top pullout, 125A?

When I replaced my old 60A fuse panel, I gutted it and used the old
box as a junction box. Mounted the new 150A breaker box right next to
it and connected them with a short 1 1/4" rigid conduit. But I ran
new service entrance conductors... You don't want to do that if the
existing ones are big enough.

-Bob

On Tue, 31 May 2011 18:12:02 -0400, "RogerT"
wrote:

Metspitzer wrote:
.....,
He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

I don't know the answers to the electrical questions, but if your friend is
planning on renting the property out, he may want to consider having a
licensed electrician do a whole new service or at least do the changeover to
circuit breakers.

One reason is that since it is an income property, the cost should be a
deductible business expense for tax purposes. Another reason is that his
insurance carrier may require that. And, a third reason has to do with
liability issues in the event of a fire etc. in the future -- an insurance
company may deny the claim if he (or an unlicensed person) did the
electrical work; and he or any unlicensed person who did the electrical work
could be personally liable for any damages or harm that results.

He may already know about these types of issues if he has other rental
properties; but, if this is his first venture into the rental/landlord
business, he may want to start learning as much as he can about that. Once
way to get more information etc. would be to join a local real estate
investor association or group. Here is a link to some that are in Georgia:
http://www.creonline.com/real-estate-clubs/ga.html . I think that usually
the groups that have "REIA" (Real Estate Investor Association) in their name
tend to have more useful information a resources for their members.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Unless things have changed, the home owner is allowed to work on his
own house. I worked as a commercial electrician for 20 years until
2000, but I am disabled. He knows I won't be much help, but I am
willing to share all I know with him.

I will be emailing him the Google link to this thread, and he may even
want to join in.

My advice will be to change everything, but it is going to be his
call. My residential experience is one house (my sisters)

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

OK, I decided to see what an actual 2/0 aluminum SE conductor looks like.
Your photo looks like #2 to me, so I cut a piece from some cable and I have
to admit, even holding it in my hand, it looks like #2 to me. This stuff is
so tight, it really is considerably smaller than standard wire.
Unfortunately I don't have standard 2/0 aluminum wire, to show the
comparison. Here are some pics of the SE conductor:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.


I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.

On Tue, 31 May 2011 19:18:38 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

OK, I decided to see what an actual 2/0 aluminum SE conductor looks like.
Your photo looks like #2 to me, so I cut a piece from some cable and I have
to admit, even holding it in my hand, it looks like #2 to me. This stuff is
so tight, it really is considerably smaller than standard wire.
Unfortunately I don't have standard 2/0 aluminum wire, to show the
comparison. Here are some pics of the SE conductor:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Yeah, it is hard for me to tell one size from another in real life.
The photos are just not going to do it. Hopefully we will be able to
tell when we have something side by side. He may bring a few sizes to
be sure.

Thanks

On Tue, 31 May 2011 14:36:01 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.
The "modified" box will NOT be UL or CSA approved, nor will the guts
you install in that modified box. You MAY be able to find a breaker
box that "just fits" inside the old box - which WOULD be a UL or CSA
listed device

zxcvbob wrote:

Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl
Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.

How about a new GE panel? The holes might even line up :-)

There's nothing wrong with fuses as long as they have the right sizes
installed; I wouldn't touch it if you have enough capacity. What are
the main fuses in that top pullout, 125A?

There is nothing technically wrong with fuses, however from a practical
perspective they will cost you more on insurance, particularly on a
rental property. The $250 it should cost for a DIY panel replacement
will be made up in the first year of insurance premiums.

On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:28:25 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl
Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.


How about a new GE panel? The holes might even line up :-)

There's nothing wrong with fuses as long as they have the right sizes
installed; I wouldn't touch it if you have enough capacity. What are
the main fuses in that top pullout, 125A?

When I replaced my old 60A fuse panel, I gutted it and used the old
box as a junction box. Mounted the new 150A breaker box right next to
it and connected them with a short 1 1/4" rigid conduit. But I ran
new service entrance conductors... You don't want to do that if the
existing ones are big enough.

-Bob
I didn't even check any of the sizes of the current fuses.

Using the existing box for a JB is a good suggestion, but the wall
this one is on is too small to do that I think.

There's nothing wrong with fuses as long as they have the right sizes
installed; I wouldn't touch it if you have enough capacity. What are the
main fuses in that top pullout, 125A?

**They're 60 amp fuse blocks

On 5/31/2011 8:08 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2011 14:36:01 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.

The "modified" box will NOT be UL or CSA approved, nor will the guts
you install in that modified box. You MAY be able to find a breaker
box that "just fits" inside the old box - which WOULD be a UL or CSA
listed device

You are right that when replacing the guts the result is a panel that is
not listed. That is actually also true if you put new guts in a box the
same size the guts came out of.

From what gfretwell said the CH panel guts he talks about are listed
for installation into an existing box.

Another consideration for just replacing the guts is whether the
existing SE cable service wires are long enough to reach the lugs on the
new panel.

--
bud--

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:03:49 -0500, bud--
wrote:

On 5/31/2011 8:08 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2011 14:36:01 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:46:01 -0400, wrote:

Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and
both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for
electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an
electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be
tapped to hold a new set of guts.

The "modified" box will NOT be UL or CSA approved, nor will the guts
you install in that modified box. You MAY be able to find a breaker
box that "just fits" inside the old box - which WOULD be a UL or CSA
listed device

You are right that when replacing the guts the result is a panel that is
not listed. That is actually also true if you put new guts in a box the
same size the guts came out of.

Which is NOT what I was suggesting. Putting the "whole box" into the
old box is different thanputting the guts in.

From what gfretwell said the CH panel guts he talks about are listed
for installation into an existing box.

Another consideration for just replacing the guts is whether the
existing SE cable service wires are long enough to reach the lugs on the
new panel.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.


I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.


** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.


I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.


** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

I don't know how all of those fuses are connected, but the owner said
he pulled every single fuse when he was shocked while working on the
water heater and it was still hot. The only one I checked was the one
for the water heater but as you can see from the picture there is no
fuse protection for the water heater. The block is out but those two
terminals are hot and connected to the water heater.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.


I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.


** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

I don't know how all of those fuses are connected, but the owner said
he pulled every single fuse when he was shocked while working on the
water heater and it was still hot. The only one I checked was the one
for the water heater but as you can see from the picture there is no
fuse protection for the water heater. The block is out but those two
terminals are hot and connected to the water heater.

**Where you drew those two red lines, if that is where the water heater was
connected, that appears to be the line side of the fuse block, so that would
be hot regardless of fuses.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:56:24 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to
hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.


I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.


** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

I don't know how all of those fuses are connected, but the owner said
he pulled every single fuse when he was shocked while working on the
water heater and it was still hot. The only one I checked was the one
for the water heater but as you can see from the picture there is no
fuse protection for the water heater. The block is out but those two
terminals are hot and connected to the water heater.

**Where you drew those two red lines, if that is where the water heater was
connected, that appears to be the line side of the fuse block, so that would
be hot regardless of fuses.

Yes. There is something connected to both sides of that fuse block.

On Jun 2, 6:16*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:56:24 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Jun 2, 6:16*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:56:24 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

I dont know why you would want to do this. *All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. *You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. *And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. *So what's the point? *If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. *The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. *If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. *Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. *In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. *The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. *He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. *He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.

** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" *One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

I don't know how all of those fuses are connected, but the owner said
he pulled every single fuse when he was shocked while working on the
water heater and it was still hot. *The only one I checked was the one
for the water heater but as you can see from the picture there is no
fuse protection for the water heater. *The block is out but those two
terminals are hot and connected to the water heater.

**Where you drew those two red lines, if that is where the water heater was
connected, that appears to be the line side of the fuse block, so that would
be hot regardless of fuses.

Yes. *There is something connected to both sides of that fuse block.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

remember fuse boxes are OLD, andnot only too small amp wise, but lack
proper grounding, ARC FAULT and GFCIs, and worse most people tend to
overfuse, hey the 15 amp one blew, try a 20, oh it blew a 30 should do
it the main service cable may be in poor shape too

Plus you may have trouble getting homeowners insurance, or pay extra,
because of fuses.

If you happen to have K&T just forget it. future resale impossible,
insurance near so.

I sent him the link to this thread yesterday. Although he has an
email address, I am don't think he web surfs every waking hour like I
do.

He is trying to get the house ready to rent. He wants a safe,
inexpensive fix. I am not sure what to tell him. I am getting a book
from the library to show him what the current requirements for a house
are.

On 6/2/2011 5:16 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:56:24 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400,
wrote:

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

....

** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

I don't know how all of those fuses are connected, but the owner said
he pulled every single fuse when he was shocked while working on the
water heater and it was still hot. The only one I checked was the one
for the water heater but as you can see from the picture there is no
fuse protection for the water heater. The block is out but those two
terminals are hot and connected to the water heater.

**Where you drew those two red lines, if that is where the water heater was
connected, that appears to be the line side of the fuse block, so that would
be hot regardless of fuses.

Yes. There is something connected to both sides of that fuse block.

As RBM indicated, there shouldn't be. In addition to not being able to
turn the wires off, the wires have absolutely no protection. If wired
correctly, downstream from fuses, the box may (or may not) be functional
for future use.

--
bud--

On Jun 2, 2:39*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 06:37:13 -0500, wrote:
If they made 100A plug
fuses, people would use them.

They make them at the US Mint and they are one cent each. *;-)

pennies are copper plated these days, does the base metal cause
overheating

On May 31, 8:37*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2011 19:18:38 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucAD
http://imgur.com/NP8xV&UucADl

--
O'Neil to General Hammond:
For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

OK, I decided to see what an actual 2/0 aluminum SE conductor looks like..
Your photo looks like #2 to me, so I cut a piece from some cable and I have
to admit, even holding it in my hand, it looks like #2 to me. This stuff is
so tight, it really is considerably smaller than standard wire.
Unfortunately I don't have standard 2/0 aluminum wire, to show the
comparison. Here are some pics of the SE conductor:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...y3vYrUkP1OVEiD...

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...OcSj7UkP1OVEiD...

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...v-gs7UkP1OVEiD...

Why does everyone believe this is aluminum? I have never seen aluminum
wire with a cloth and rubber insulation, *only tinned copper.

IF THIS IS ABOUT THE CABLES IN THE OPs PICTURES, THEY ARE
ALUMINUM..COPPER RARELY TURNS WHITE OR SILVERY LOOKING.
ABOUT HIS PROBLEMATIC UPDATE..I WOULD COUNT THE EXISTING CIRCUITS AMD
FIND A PANEL THAT WOULD FIT WITH + OR - THE SAME AMOUNT OF BREAKERS
AS CIRCUITS READY THERE.

IT'S NO BIGGY...I WOULD GO ALL THE WAY ON THAT THOUGH...SOME OF THOSE
CABLES LOOK PRETTY SHODDY......WHATEVER IS SAFE.......GOOD LUCK.
TGTIM

On Jun 2, 7:37*am, wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2011 19:24:56 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:





On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

I dont know why you would want to do this. *All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. *You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. *And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. *So what's the point? *If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. *The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. *If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. *Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. *In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. *The
house wiring can be reused in most cases. *

Your concerns are valid. *
http://i...........J.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. *He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

Looking at that photo, it's a little hard to say with out having the
box in front of me and a tester in hand, but it appears he must be
coming directly off the mains. *They mains connectors appear to be in
the CENTER of the box. *The water heater should be on the other sides
of that pull out, this is my guess. *The way it is now, that water
heater has no fuses at all ***DANGEROUS***. *He's lucky he didn't get
killed. *Now, if you take a look at that top right pullout, there are
no wires going to it. *THAT's the one that should be used for the
water heater and put 30A cartridge fuses in it.

One other thing. *Look at all those 30A plug fuses. *Assuming those
are for the lighting and outlets, they should NOT be 30A. *They should
be 15A or 20A depending on the wire. *#14 = 15A *#12 = 20A. *Another
dangerous situation. *It's not uncommon though. *It's a major cause of
electrical fires because many people did it. *If they made 100A plug
fuses, people would use them.

That pull out that appears to be incorrectly wired now, must be for
some other 220 device in the house. *Possibly an Air Conditioner, or a
sub feed to a garage or something else. *It's not likely an electric
range, because the wires are too thin.





I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. *He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.

IF HE IS TO KEEP THE EXCISTING CIRCUITRY, I'D PUT GFI BREAKERS ON THE
HEATER, BATHROOM & KITCHEN CIRCUITS......YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE.
TGITM
PATECUM

On Jun 2, 7:43*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Jun 2, 6:16*pm, Metspitzer wrote:





On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:56:24 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:47:28 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 17:21:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:50:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse
box? *I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent.
The house is small but it is really nice. *Here are two pictures of
the fuse box. *It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. *The box
measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. *No markings on the service entrance
cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit
breakers. *The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with
the fuses removed. *In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block
that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, *I offered to have a look at it for him,
but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house
down and start from scratch. *I know that is not what he wants to
hear. *The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to
touch it. *The house is in rural Georgia.

I dont know why you would want to do this. *All you are doing is
keeping a metal box. *You still have to get the meter pulled to change
the MAINS. *And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house.
About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or
BX clamps. *So what's the point? *If you have conduit going to the
house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but
it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box
and just change the whole thing. *The time you'll spend removing cable
clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box
anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. *If you have
an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or
larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to
the meter and to the breaker box. *Often this means replaceing the
pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger
cable. *In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace
everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. *The
house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Your concerns are valid.
http://i.imgur.com/t7RJJ.jpg
The main reason he wants to change anything is because there are 240V
between these two connections with the block pulled. *He was working
on the plumbing to the water heater and got shocked (I forget the
details, but if he joins in he can let us know)

I have also made him very aware of having to bring everything up to
code. *He is the kind of guy that does things right so I imagine
everything will be replaced, but asked me to consider changing the
panel.

** Just so you understand how that panel works: All of the upper pullouts
are "mains" *One of them feeds the bank of plug fuses. When he was working
on the water heater, he undoubtedly pulled the wrong main

I don't know how all of those fuses are connected, but the owner said
he pulled every single fuse when he was shocked while working on the
water heater and it was still hot. *The only one I checked was the one
for the water heater but as you can see from the picture there is no
fuse protection for the water heater. *The block is out but those two
terminals are hot and connected to the water heater.

**Where you drew those two red lines, if that is where the water heater was
connected, that appears to be the line side of the fuse block, so that would
be hot regardless of fuses.

Yes. *There is something connected to both sides of that fuse block.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

remember fuse boxes are OLD, andnot only too small amp wise, but lack
proper grounding, ARC FAULT and GFCIs, and worse most people tend to
overfuse, hey the 15 amp one blew, try a 20, oh it blew a 30 should do
it the main service cable may be in poor shape too

Plus you may have trouble getting homeowners insurance, or pay extra,
because of fuses.

If you happen to have K&T just forget it. future resale impossible,
insurance near so.
YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU SHOULD NEVER GO OVER 25A ON A 12 AWG CIRCUIT, NO
MATTER WHAT.
IF THAT ISNT ENOUGH CAPACITY, THEN YOU NEED AND CABLE UPGRADE, OR TO
WEEN OFF SOME OF THE JUNK YOU HAVE PLUGGED IN...SOME PEOPLE LIVE
SIMPLE LIVES AND DON'T NEED TOO MANY CIRCUITS. ETC ETC....IF HE LOVES
HIS PROPERTY AND HIS FELLOW MAN, HE REALLY SHOULD GO THE DISTANCE AND
UPGRADE THE ENTIRE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM...ETC ETC.
OR IF NOT, SELL IT AS A FIXER UPPER AND GET THE FLUX OUT OF THERE

TGITM