I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

On Feb 25, 9:51*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
* *I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* *What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* *It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* *If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* *Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps

On Feb 25, 9:51*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
* *I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* *What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* *It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* *If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* *Jeff

Should just need inspected so THEY can put meter back on.

greg

remember to GFCI the kitchen outlets, the more outlets and breakers
the better.,.

wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps
Hi,
When my house was built they installed a sub-panel for kitchen located
inside a walk-in pantry. Very handy.

On Feb 25, 10:09*am, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff *wrote:
* * I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* * What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* * It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* * If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* * Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps

Hi,
When my house was built they installed a sub-panel for kitchen *located
inside a walk-in pantry. Very handy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh no there goes your resale. Well according to halinobrains anyway.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Feb 25, 10:09 am, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps

Hi,
When my house was built they installed a sub-panel for kitchen located
inside a walk-in pantry. Very handy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh no there goes your resale. Well according to halinobrains anyway.
Hmmm,
Who cares about resale value? I built house the way I like/want.
I live there not future buyer.

On Feb 25, 9:51*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
* *I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* *What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* *It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* *If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* *Jeff

100 amp service is rather imited these days. I would consider
upgrading.

One thing to be careful about is that the boxes are not just limited
by service amps, they also have a total circuit limit. If you look at
new boxes you will see this in the box speciifications. That means
that even though you theoretically can double the breakers by using
half sized ones you may still be exceeding the total circuit limit for
the box. There is also a special load calculation that you need to do
to decide how many breakers you can put off your 100 amp service.

And you are correct, you need to use regular sized breakers for 220.
This is because those smaller "double" breakers share a single lug
behind them. To get 220 the breaker has to connect to 2 lugs.

Presuming you have a 220 breaker there now you can use it to feed a
new subpanel for the kitchen. Presuming you are going to sconnect the
stove to the new subpanel you will need to install a larger run form
the main panel to the subpanel. Probably #6.

I would forgo the two 20amp breakers for kitchen outlets if all you
have is 100 amp service.

Upgrading to 200 amp service is more than just replacing the main
panel. The electric company has to determine if the service lines
going to your house need to be upgraded. They may be pretty
reasonable about doing this as you will potentially be buying more
electricity from them. If the power is overhead this is usually a
simple task. If you have buried service that's another matter. If it
was done in the not too distant past it may be capable of 200 amp
service. If it' really old then it will likely need to be replaced.
I beleiev your power company will take a look at the situation for you
for little or no cost.

On Feb 25, 10:19*am, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Feb 25, 10:09 am, Tony *wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff * *wrote:
* * *I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* * *What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* * *It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* * *If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* * *Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps

Hi,
When my house was built they installed a sub-panel for kitchen *located
inside a walk-in pantry. Very handy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh no there goes your resale. *Well according to halinobrains anyway.

Hmmm,
Who cares about resale value? I built house the way I like/want.
I live there not future buyer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

well someday someone will sell it......

and having sold a home its a PIA, better to do any job really well
than cut corners and have them all come back to haunt you at resale
time...

your home is a place to live and no doubt the most expensive thing you
will ever buy. might as well treat it right.

On Feb 25, 10:04*am, zek wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51*am, Jeff Thies wrote:





* *I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* *What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* *It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* *If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.

Jeff Thies wrote:

I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

Upgrading the main panel is generally the preferred solution. I don't
really like sub panels in a house outside of a basement/garage workshop,
or detached buildings. On the subject of half size 220V breakers, I seem
to recall seeing a breaker once that was physically 2 pole sized and
contained four breakers, I believe a 20A single on each pole, and in the
center a ganged two pole 220V breaker. I don't recall what brand this
was or what rating the two pole section was.

The official procedures for pulling a meter vary greatly from area to
area. Over the years when I have needed to do some quick work that
required pulling the meter I have simply cut the seal, pulled the meter,
done my work, put the meter back and been done with it. I've done this
in several different areas and never had a single complaint. Unless you
are in some high risk area where the utility uses actual locks on the
meters there should be no issue.

On Feb 25, 9:51*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
* *I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* *What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* *It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* *If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* *Jeff

Around here the power company wants to know you're going to pull the
meter before hand, and oh by the way they charge money for the
privilege of inspecting the work when you're done. It the meter reader
sees the seal broken unexpectedly, it's a red flag, since there's lots
of trickery that people try to pull by bypassing the meter for their
water heater, grow lights, etc.

Some panels can accommodate a breaker module that puts four half-
height breakers in two full slots, with the middle two (which straddle
the two legs) linked for 220V feeds, and the two outer ones for use as
regular 110V circuits. But as others have posted, try to find the
maker's recommendations for box fill and max amps.

Local code will have strict requirements for what a kitchen needs, I
recommend you get definitive data for where you are.

Definitely it'll include a dedicated circuit for the fridge and one
for the dishwasher and 220 for the range as you've said. Counter
outlets are different here than in the US, so I'll shut up about
those; but here, if there is a table in the kitchen, like a breakfast
nook, there needs to be a duplex outlet near it, and I believe it
needs to be on a circuit by itself. Like you may have the toaster on
the table.

Lighting and range hoods can, i believe, can all be on whatever shared
circuit is convenient. Personally, if I knew where the microwave was
going to be, I'd make sure it had a dedicated circuit too.

If the breaker count, total breaker ampacity and box fill are ok in
your existing panel, I'd probably stick with it, since you've had no
trips so far and there's really no reason you'll be using *more*
power. I'd consider a subpanel only if the cable routing were
difficult (kitchen a long way away). Leave enough of a 'drip loop' in
new cables at the panel so they can be fed in to a new, longer panel
if you ever swap this one out.

Chip C
Toronto

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff Thies wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

Just for reference, the current NEC requirement (new construction) is 2
kitchen circuits (virtually all the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, similar), 1 laundry circuit, and 1 bathroom
circuit - minimum

A separate circuit for the refrigerator is nice, but not required and
may not be necessary for you depending on what you use in your kitchen.


It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Around here I just cut the seal then call the utility. Some other
utilities may not be so friendly. Ask in advance.

Replacing with a new 100A panel may not be a simple swap. The old
service wires may not be long enough. That means shortening the conduit
with the wires in it or fishing new wires into the 1/2 hot meter socket
(very dangerous).

You do not want to work around hot service wires. The hazard is not just
electrocution. If there is a short you can get 5,000 - 10,000A short
circuit current, with minimal overcurrent protection from the utility.
Screwdrivers can evaporate. It can totally ruin your day.

There is the question of pulling a permit, if applicable in your area.
If you pull a permit, with a new panel, there may be required minimum
circuits that are required by the "AHJ" (but not by the NEC). Pulling a
permit is recommended. There are many practices that are unique to services.

If you add a subpanel, you can move some circuits from the existing
service to get space to add breakers.


100 amp service is rather imited these days. I would consider
upgrading.

One thing to be careful about is that the boxes are not just limited
by service amps, they also have a total circuit limit. If you look at
new boxes you will see this in the box speciifications. That means
that even though you theoretically can double the breakers by using
half sized ones you may still be exceeding the total circuit limit for
the box. There is also a special load calculation that you need to do
to decide how many breakers you can put off your 100 amp service.

To enforce the limit on the number of 'circuits', panels have for many
years limited where the half-sized breakers can be installed. Commonly
available half sized breakers won't fit in other positions. The panel
label should have information.

There are calculations for what size service you need if you add a load
(like electric stove) to an existing house. You can install as may
breakers in a panel as the panel is designed to allow (or add subpanels).


And you are correct, you need to use regular sized breakers for 220.
This is because those smaller "double" breakers share a single lug
behind them. To get 220 the breaker has to connect to 2 lugs.

Presuming you have a 220 breaker there now you can use it to feed a
new subpanel for the kitchen. Presuming you are going to sconnect the
stove to the new subpanel you will need to install a larger run form
the main panel to the subpanel. Probably #6.

I would forgo the two 20amp breakers for kitchen outlets if all you
have is 100 amp service.

Upgrading to 200 amp service is more than just replacing the main
panel. The electric company has to determine if the service lines
going to your house need to be upgraded. They may be pretty
reasonable about doing this as you will potentially be buying more
electricity from them. If the power is overhead this is usually a
simple task. If you have buried service that's another matter. If it
was done in the not too distant past it may be capable of 200 amp
service. If it' really old then it will likely need to be replaced.
I beleiev your power company will take a look at the situation for you
for little or no cost.

Upgrading to 200A also means replacing all the electrical (wire,
conduit, meter can) back to where the utility connects.

--
bud--

On 2/25/2011 10:03 AM, wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

OK. I'm looking at this:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053

Siemens 200A 30 circuit. Are the breakers the same as my GE? I have some
memory of there being different styles. This mentions Instr-Wire, which
is unknown to me.

I was down at one of the builders surplus stores and they had a number
of used breaker boxes just laying around, some with breakers in them. I
don't mind buying used, but it's not so expensive new to be a big
factor. I'm willing to pay for less hassle.


200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

OK.


of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps

I'll leave the option open.

Jeff

Jeff Thies wrote:

OK. I'm looking at this:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053


Siemens 200A 30 circuit. Are the breakers the same as my GE? I have some
memory of there being different styles. This mentions Instr-Wire, which
is unknown to me.

I was down at one of the builders surplus stores and they had a number
of used breaker boxes just laying around, some with breakers in them. I
don't mind buying used, but it's not so expensive new to be a big
factor. I'm willing to pay for less hassle.


Properly, you can only use the breakers that are listed on the label in
the panel.

There are also some "classified" breakers that have been tested to work
in other manufacturer's panels. I think, for example, Siemens makes
breakers for SquareD.

If this is going to be inspected you may have problems using breakers
other than that (it is an NEC violation).

I would not use 'previously owned' breakers becasue I don't know their
history.

--
bud--

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a lot
of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half size
breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger service
box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size 220
breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power. I'm
thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am I
wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first call the utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

WW wrote:

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first call the utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

In some areas that works fine, in other areas all it does is create
headaches. In my experience you are usually better of just going the
"git 'er done" route, cutting the seal, pulling the meter, doing your
work, putting the meter back and being done with it. I've never had any
complaints doing this in several areas, and if someone complains, just
go into the "damned vandal kids" routine.

I swear to god, it was those damn kids that put in that new 200A panel.

On Feb 25, 12:05*pm, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/25/2011 10:03 AM, wrote:



On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff *wrote:
* * I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

* * What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

* * It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

* * If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

* * Jeff

around here pulling the meter is a non issue with the power company,
as long as you inform them immediately afterward.so they can reseal
the meter. just tell them you had to replace a breaker and didnt want
to get shocked

with the electric stove load a new main would be good.

you could install a 200 amp panel but swap out the 200 amp main for
100 amp so you dont have to replace the main service drop and meter
can....... keep the 200 amp breaker for later use if needed

OK. I'm looking at this:http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...ProductDisplay...

Siemens 200A 30 circuit. Are the breakers the same as my GE? I have some
memory of there being different styles. This mentions Instr-Wire, which
is unknown to me.

I was down at one of the builders surplus stores and they had a number
of used breaker boxes just laying around, some with breakers in them. I
don't mind buying used, but it's not so expensive new to be a big
factor. I'm willing to pay for less hassle.



200 amp main panels usually offer more breaker slots.

half breakers will work but the main box will get packed with wires:
( and you will likely have to add some neutral buss bars. i dont like
jammed boxes.

OK.



of course the best is a whole new main and service drop 200 amps

I'll leave the option open.

* *Jeff



Without knowing what circuits you already have installed in your
100 amp service panel no one here can realistically tell you whether
or not you should buy a larger panel to facilitate installing more
circuits...

Without knowing your ACTUAL load on each leg of your service
you could experience big problems with an imbalanced load
causing the main breaker to trip...

So right off the bat if you bought this panel you would be off
looking for a 100 amp main breaker to swap out for the 200 amp
one that it comes pre-equipped with... That breaker by itself
is going to cost quite a bit... Plus you are looking at obtaining
all new breakers which are compatible and approved for use
with that shiny new panel for your existing circuits as well as
the new ones you want to add...

Without knowing the layout of your house and what specific
and discreet spaces exist, in general you will need a dedicated
appliance 20amp circuit for the counter in the kitchen as well
as dedicated 20amp circuits for outlets in bathrooms and
laundry rooms...

I agree with bud--, I would not buy and install a "pre-owned"
electrical panel, its just not worth the trouble which can
happen...

Is there some reason why you are adverse to installing
a small sub-panel to accommodate the few circuits you
need to add?

Also a pic of your existing panel would be great...

~~ Evan

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a lot
of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half size
breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger service
box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size 220
breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power. I'm
thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am I
wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

As far as pulling meters, and changing service equipment, this varies by
area so you'd really need to speak with whatever agency or utility has
jurisdiction.

Regarding your kitchen work: assuming you already have a functioning
kitchen, you really aren't adding much to the existing load, and your plan
sounds fine, so I would just add a sub panel or use splits for the existing
GE panel. GE does make half sized breakers in both single pole and double
pole for the TM panels. Their half size breakers connect to "T" slots on the
buss. Not every slot on the panel is necessarily a "T" , so you have to pull
some breakers to see where they are.

Jeff Thies wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp
main (never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size
breakers in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half
size 220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters,
am I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.


On the meter, contact the power company to find out what their policy might
be.

Some don't care. Some will come out and remove the seal and restore it when
you call back.

Some require a licensed electrician who also holds a Master Beautician
ticket, permits from the city, inspections, and a blessing from the local
priest.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff Thies wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters, am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

100 amp service is rather imited these days. I would consider
upgrading.

One thing to be careful about is that the boxes are not just limited
by service amps, they also have a total circuit limit. If you look at
new boxes you will see this in the box speciifications. That means
that even though you theoretically can double the breakers by using
half sized ones you may still be exceeding the total circuit limit for
the box. There is also a special load calculation that you need to do
to decide how many breakers you can put off your 100 amp service.

And you are correct, you need to use regular sized breakers for 220.
This is because those smaller "double" breakers share a single lug
behind them. To get 220 the breaker has to connect to 2 lugs.

Many breaker manufacturers including GE make both half size single pole
breakers, and half sized double pole breakers. Murray actually makes a half
sized quad (two double pole breakers)

Would you suggest to call the power co before cutting a
seal? They may have other regulations, like having the work
done by electrician.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"WW" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off
the power. I'm
thinking the power company is used to people pulling the
meters, am I
wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot
more
expensive/inconvenient.

Jeff

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first
call the utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

And large ammounts of money, I'm sure.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

On the meter, contact the power company to find out what
their policy might
be.

Some don't care. Some will come out and remove the seal and
restore it when
you call back.

Some require a licensed electrician who also holds a Master
Beautician
ticket, permits from the city, inspections, and a blessing
from the local
priest.

100 amp service is rather imited these days. I would consider
upgrading.


---------------

Maybe if you have a couple of teenagers or a hot tub.

I replaced my panel with 100 amp only but I did take the dryer and stove off
the grid. They are gas.

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...


WW wrote:

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first call the
utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

In some areas that works fine, in other areas all it does is create
headaches. In my experience you are usually better of just going the
"git 'er done" route, cutting the seal, pulling the meter, doing your
work, putting the meter back and being done with it. I've never had any
complaints doing this in several areas, and if someone complains, just
go into the "damned vandal kids" routine.

-------------


In some areas that's against the law.

around here meters are read by radio, no one physically looks at the
meter anymore.

that makes me wonder if tampering will increase?

The Henchman wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

WW wrote:

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first call the
utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

In some areas that works fine, in other areas all it does is create
headaches. In my experience you are usually better of just going the
"git 'er done" route, cutting the seal, pulling the meter, doing your
work, putting the meter back and being done with it. I've never had any
complaints doing this in several areas, and if someone complains, just
go into the "damned vandal kids" routine.

-------------

In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo

"bud--" wrote in message
...
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff Thies wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

Just for reference, the current NEC requirement (new construction) is 2
kitchen circuits (virtually all the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, similar), 1 laundry circuit, and 1 bathroom
circuit - minimum

OK, so the question I have: If you're going to share your 2 required
kitchen appliance circuits with your dining room, etc., do you install an
AFCI breaker in the panel, then GFCI receptacles at the counter tops? My
code handbook shows dining room and kitchen outlets connected to an
appliance circuit, with no mention of AFCI protection in the drawing.
210.12 specifies that dining rooms must be AFCI protected.

On 2/25/2011 1:48 PM, Pete C. wrote:

WW wrote:

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first call the utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

In some areas that works fine, in other areas all it does is create
headaches. In my experience you are usually better of just going the
"git 'er done" route, cutting the seal, pulling the meter, doing your
work, putting the meter back and being done with it. I've never had any
complaints doing this in several areas, and if someone complains, just
go into the "damned vandal kids" routine.

I agree. Just pull it, do your work and be done. No phone calls, no
nothing. They'll put a seal back on it. _IF_ they ever come out. Our
meter hasn't been physically read for years, if ever.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/25/2011 3:43 PM, The Henchman wrote:


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...


WW wrote:

If you are going to cut the seal and pull the meter, first call the
utility
and advise, then call back when done and they will reseal.
Former electric meter man. WW

In some areas that works fine, in other areas all it does is create
headaches. In my experience you are usually better of just going the
"git 'er done" route, cutting the seal, pulling the meter, doing your
work, putting the meter back and being done with it. I've never had any
complaints doing this in several areas, and if someone complains, just
go into the "damned vandal kids" routine.

-------------


In some areas that's against the law.

You got some documentation on that? What "area" are you referring to?

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo


----------

With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all
electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a tampering
tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying twice the
market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

On 2/25/2011 9:58 PM, The Henchman wrote:

In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo


----------

With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all
electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a
tampering tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying
twice the market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

How do they catch tampering? Only way I can think is if the meter is
unresponsive while it is being polled. That can't be often.

I've seen some real battles between the power company and those
trying to keep their electricity on. I've never heard of the power
company (Southern) fining anyone for damage or illegal usage. They will
take down the line, rather than fine, eventually.

What they do here is just install a physical locking device that runs
around the meter. If that doesn't "work" then the line comes down.

YMMV.

Jeff

RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
...
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff Thies wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?
Just for reference, the current NEC requirement (new construction) is 2
kitchen circuits (virtually all the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, similar), 1 laundry circuit, and 1 bathroom
circuit - minimum
=================
OK, so the question I have: If you're going to share your 2 required
kitchen appliance circuits with your dining room, etc., do you install an
AFCI breaker in the panel, then GFCI receptacles at the counter tops? My
code handbook shows dining room and kitchen outlets connected to an
appliance circuit, with no mention of AFCI protection in the drawing.
210.12 specifies that dining rooms must be AFCI protected.


I haven't done it, but I presume that whatever appliance ckts appear in
the dining room have to originate on an AFCI breaker, and if those ckts
appear on the kitchen countertop they have to be a GFCI receptacle or
downstream from a GFCI receptacle.

=================
I suspect you saw - where you are extending a circuit that is not AFCI
protected to add a receptacle where the NEC requires the new receptacle
be AFCI, the 2011 NEC requires an AFCI receptacle at the start of the
extension to protect downstream (or change the breaker to AFCI, or some
other possibilities). If they could I suspect there would have been a
requirement that the source breaker be AFCI, but the NEC applies to the
new part of the wiring.

And for replacement receptacles on non-AFCI protected circuits where the
NEC now requires AFCI protection, the replacement receptacle has to be
AFCI starting in 2014 (some other possibilities).

As of when the 2011 code-change book was written there were no AFCI
receptacles.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
...
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff Thies wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp
main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size
breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and
a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?
Just for reference, the current NEC requirement (new construction) is 2
kitchen circuits (virtually all the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, similar), 1 laundry circuit, and 1 bathroom
circuit - minimum
=================
OK, so the question I have: If you're going to share your 2 required
kitchen appliance circuits with your dining room, etc., do you install
an AFCI breaker in the panel, then GFCI receptacles at the counter tops?
My code handbook shows dining room and kitchen outlets connected to an
appliance circuit, with no mention of AFCI protection in the drawing.
210.12 specifies that dining rooms must be AFCI protected.


I haven't done it, but I presume that whatever appliance ckts appear in
the dining room have to originate on an AFCI breaker, and if those ckts
appear on the kitchen countertop they have to be a GFCI receptacle or
downstream from a GFCI receptacle.

=================
I suspect you saw - where you are extending a circuit that is not AFCI
protected to add a receptacle where the NEC requires the new receptacle be
AFCI, the 2011 NEC requires an AFCI receptacle at the start of the
extension to protect downstream (or change the breaker to AFCI, or some
other possibilities). If they could I suspect there would have been a
requirement that the source breaker be AFCI, but the NEC applies to the
new part of the wiring.

And for replacement receptacles on non-AFCI protected circuits where the
NEC now requires AFCI protection, the replacement receptacle has to be
AFCI starting in 2014 (some other possibilities).

As of when the 2011 code-change book was written there were no AFCI
receptacles.

--
bud--

That makes sense to me. I haven't had the scenario to date. My thought was
to just run separate circuits to any location that requires AFCI protection,
and keep kitchens separate, especially when considering the wiring to the
first outlet rule. I would also be a little concerned taping a GFCI off of
an AFCI, although I have no reason to believe it would be problematic. I
also have not yet seen an AFCI receptacle

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Feb 25, 10:09 am, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp
main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size
breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter, and
a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half
size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters,
am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

I don't know about US code but Canadian code requires an outlet on every
counter surface larger than 12 inches, and one every 6 feet, minimum. Plus
one for the fridge, dishwasher, microwave and any other dedicated fixed
appliance. This would require more than 2 breakers. Also my house has a 100
amp service but because all circuits are very lightly loader, and the house
is spread out, I have three branch breaker boxes to provide enough breakers.

On Feb 26, 5:28*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/25/2011 9:58 PM, The Henchman wrote:



In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo

----------

With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all
electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a
tampering tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying
twice the market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

* *How do they catch tampering? Only way I can think is if the meter is
unresponsive while it is being polled. That can't be often.

* *I've seen some real battles between the power company and those
trying to keep their electricity on. I've never heard of the power
company (Southern) fining anyone for damage or illegal usage. They will
take down the line, rather than fine, eventually.

What they do here is just install a physical locking device that runs
around the meter. If that doesn't "work" then the line comes down.

YMMV.

* *Jeff

a meter could be designed to report in any time theres a power
failure.

now assume the thief pulls the meter and installs the jumper. theres
been a power failure, later the meter reports in a 10 minute power
failure at time X but none of its adjacent meters do.

thief busted

On 2/27/2011 12:45 PM, wrote:
On Feb 26, 5:28 am, Jeff wrote:
On 2/25/2011 9:58 PM, The Henchman wrote:



In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo

----------

With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all
electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a
tampering tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying
twice the market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

How do they catch tampering? Only way I can think is if the meter is
unresponsive while it is being polled. That can't be often.

I've seen some real battles between the power company and those
trying to keep their electricity on. I've never heard of the power
company (Southern) fining anyone for damage or illegal usage. They will
take down the line, rather than fine, eventually.

What they do here is just install a physical locking device that runs
around the meter. If that doesn't "work" then the line comes down.

YMMV.

Jeff

a meter could be designed to report in any time theres a power
failure.

now assume the thief pulls the meter and installs the jumper. theres
been a power failure, later the meter reports in a 10 minute power
failure at time X but none of its adjacent meters do.

thief busted

Maybe when building a new house, it would be worth it to install an
in-line shutoff between meter base and service panel? Or is that
illegal? I assume SOMEBODY out there makes a suitable device. Like most
DIYs, I'm not real comfortable working on an open service panel- I keep
looking up at those main lugs upstream of the Big Breaker, lest they
pounce when I'm not looking... :^/

(When I was a kid, the main shutoff was directly behind meter base, in
the storage cabinet out on the carport. The rest of service panel was
40-some conduit feet away, in the traditional location in basement. 40
years since I've seen it, so I am a little fuzzy on the details, but I
think the thing on the carport had a side handle and lockout holes.)

--
aem sends...

"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Feb 25, 10:09 am, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:51 am, Jeff wrote:
I'll be tackling the kitchen electric soon. The only place I use
a
lot of electricity is in the kitchen. The service box has a 100 amp
main
(never tripped) and is a TLM 612. Currently has the normal size
breakers
in them.

What I was thinking was two 20A lines for the kitchen counter,
and a
separate line for both the fridge and washer. Is that about right?

It looks to me that I have several options, I can put in the half
size breakers. Run a subpanel just for the kitchen, or put in a
larger
service box. The stove is electric and I don't think they make half
size
220 breakers, am I wrong?

If I put in a larger service box, I'll want to turn off the
power.
I'm thinking the power company is used to people pulling the meters,
am
I wrong? If so this makes replacing the service box a lot more
expensive/inconvenient.

I don't know about US code but Canadian code requires an outlet on every
counter surface larger than 12 inches, and one every 6 feet, minimum. Plus
one for the fridge, dishwasher, microwave and any other dedicated fixed
appliance. This would require more than 2 breakers. Also my house has a
100 amp service but because all circuits are very lightly loader, and the
house is spread out, I have three branch breaker boxes to provide enough
breakers.

U.S. Nec is similar in that it requires a minimum of 2-20 amp circuits for
general use counter outlets. Other fixed appliances cannot be fed by these
same 2 circuits, except for the refrigerator, however the OP is planning to
run two more circuits for the fridge and washer. We also must install a
receptacle at any counter space 12" or larger, but any counter space must be
within 2 feet of a receptacle making our placement a little tighter at every
4 feet

wrote in message
...
On Feb 26, 5:28 am, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/25/2011 9:58 PM, The Henchman wrote:



In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo

----------

With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all
electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a
tampering tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying
twice the market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

How do they catch tampering? Only way I can think is if the meter is
unresponsive while it is being polled. That can't be often.

I've seen some real battles between the power company and those
trying to keep their electricity on. I've never heard of the power
company (Southern) fining anyone for damage or illegal usage. They will
take down the line, rather than fine, eventually.

What they do here is just install a physical locking device that runs
around the meter. If that doesn't "work" then the line comes down.

YMMV.

Jeff

a meter could be designed to report in any time theres a power
failure.

now assume the thief pulls the meter and installs the jumper. theres
been a power failure, later the meter reports in a 10 minute power
failure at time X but none of its adjacent meters do.

thief busted

If it was that simplistic your thief could just wait for a power failure to
install his jumper

On 2/27/2011 2:04 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Feb 26, 5:28 am, Jeff wrote:
On 2/25/2011 9:58 PM, The Henchman wrote:



In some areas that's against the law.

Whoop-dee-doo

----------

With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all
electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a
tampering tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying
twice the market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

How do they catch tampering? Only way I can think is if the meter is
unresponsive while it is being polled. That can't be often.

I've seen some real battles between the power company and those
trying to keep their electricity on. I've never heard of the power
company (Southern) fining anyone for damage or illegal usage. They will
take down the line, rather than fine, eventually.

What they do here is just install a physical locking device that runs
around the meter. If that doesn't "work" then the line comes down.

YMMV.

Jeff

a meter could be designed to report in any time theres a power
failure.

now assume the thief pulls the meter and installs the jumper. theres
been a power failure, later the meter reports in a 10 minute power
failure at time X but none of its adjacent meters do.

thief busted

If it was that simplistic your thief could just wait for a power failure to
install his jumper



Or take a .22 rifle and shoot a fuse off a pole. ^_^

TDD