Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
thermostats.

In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
not calling for heat?

Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box. And on a
cold night I was down there, the actual temp in the hallway says 70
on the T-stat (T-stat does not call for heat until it drops below
70), but in the apt itself it feels colder, maybe 65. I feel as if
maybe where the T-stat is its warmer. So to compensate for this, I
raised it to 72. So far I have not heard complaints. But is this
usually a problem where T-stats are mounted in common areas, and you
have to try and find that "sweet spot?"

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
thermostats.

In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
not calling for heat?

Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box. And on a
cold night I was down there, the actual temp in the hallway says 70
on the T-stat (T-stat does not call for heat until it drops below
70), but in the apt itself it feels colder, maybe 65. I feel as if
maybe where the T-stat is its warmer. So to compensate for this, I
raised it to 72. So far I have not heard complaints. But is this
usually a problem where T-stats are mounted in common areas, and you
have to try and find that "sweet spot?"

It will be next to impossible to have even heat in the whole building using
one thermostat regardless of it's location. Currently when it's set for 70,
your apt is 65, so if you want your apt to be 70, you'll have to raise the
stat, and the temp in the hall to 75.

On Nov 13, 6:52*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
thermostats.

In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at *70, and if the tenants
still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
not calling for heat?

Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box. And on a
cold night I was down there, the actual temp in the hallway says *70
on the T-stat (T-stat *does not call for heat until it drops below
70), but in the apt itself it feels colder, maybe 65. I feel as if
maybe where the T-stat is its warmer. So to compensate for this, I
raised it to 72. So far I have not heard complaints. But is this
usually a problem where T-stats are mounted in common areas, and you
have to try and find that "sweet spot?"

What sort of heating do you have?

R

Thanks for the replies.

When I fired up the boiler for the first time last month, I cranked it
to 80 for about an hour and checked each apt to see if the radiators
were getting hot, which they were. And I also replaced any suspect air
valves. So the radiators themselves are fine. Its just the setting on
the T-stat. This is my first winter with this bldg. The old landlord
had a Honeywell single dial T-stat set at one temp 24 hrs. Not real
energy efficient, so I replaced it with a programmable one.

I also told each tenant don't bother calling me to complain about the
heat if your A/C's are still in the windows. God I hate when people do
that.

On Nov 13, 9:46*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

When I fired up the boiler for the first time last month, I cranked it
to 80 for about an hour and checked each apt to see if the radiators
were getting hot, which they were. And I also replaced any suspect air
valves. So the radiators themselves are fine. Its just the setting on
the T-stat.

Did you replace the vents with all the same type/model? If you did,
the building will heat unevenly.

R

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
thermostats.

In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
not calling for heat?

Yes, very likely.



Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box.

How high on the wall? That can bring the temperature up as the hot air
rises. Where is the closest radiator to the T-stat?

Have you put thermometers in the apartments to see what the actual
temperature is? Also, remember that the apartments have a high heat loss
through outside walls and windows while the common area is well insulated by
those heated apartments. You may have to set it higher to get the
apartments at proper temperature. During the day, the apartments getting
sun will be warmer also.

Tell each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
circulate the air and then things will even out.

On Nov 13, 11:01*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

Have you put thermometers in the apartments to see what the actual
temperature is? * Also, remember that the apartments have a high heat loss
through outside walls and windows while the common area is well insulated by
those heated apartments. *You may have to set it higher to get the
apartments at proper temperature. * During the day, the apartments getting
sun will be warmer also.

Tell *each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
circulate the air and then things will even out.

Are you serious with that suggestion, Ed? Besides the questions of
privacy, noise, and odors there's also security. I don't know anyone
that would welcome such a request. It's the landlord's responsibility
to provide heat to an apartment, not the tenant's to have to go and
get it.
R

"RicodJour" wrote
Tell each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
circulate the air and then things will even out.

Are you serious with that suggestion, Ed? Besides the questions of
privacy, noise, and odors there's also security. I don't know anyone
that would welcome such a request. It's the landlord's responsibility
to provide heat to an apartment, not the tenant's to have to go and
get it.
R

Didn't think I'd need the smiley face.

I replaced the air valves with the appropiate type, with the furthest
one getting the valve that vents the quickest. All the radiators seem
to get hot at the same time.

The T-stat is on the second floor of a 3 story bldg. It is about 8 1/2
feet high on the wall, you need a ladder to get to it.
There is one big radiator on the first floor hallway.

As far as checking each apt, I did go into one apt the night I went
down there and although I did not have a thermometer, it did seem
cooler in there.

There are several 3 story apt bldgs in the area, and from what I
gather, the T-stat is in the hallways. So I think it's just a matter
of tweaking the setting to what everyone is happy with.
At least at night when everyone sleeps I programmed the T-stat to a
lower temp of 68 so I know the boiler is not on as much.

I guess I'll know when I get the next gas bill.

"RobertPatrick" wrote in message
eb.com...
Isn't an interior hall the place where the thermos are supposed to be?

Usually, but in a house, air circulates between rooms making it a better
representation. In my house, the closed door bedrooms are cooker than the
other rooms.

"Mikepier" wrote
The T-stat is on the second floor of a 3 story bldg. It is about 8 1/2
feet high on the wall, you need a ladder to get to it.
There is one big radiator on the first floor hallway.

That 8 1/2' mark may be a 2 degree difference, even more depending on the
path of convection. With one radiator on the bottom floor, hot air is
rising and it may be following the path right past the T-stat. Cooler air
is at the stair tread level going in the opposite direction. Take a
candle and watch the flame. When I have the wood burning stove going in the
downstairs family room, there is quite a difference in air flow in the
stairwell in the hallway.

If you leave the T-stat at that height, forget the temperature, use the
numbers as a guide to what you want to have inside the apartments. #78 on
the indicator may equal 70 degrees in the rooms.

In any case, I doubt you'll ever had every tenant happy with the temperature
at all times. I can't even do that at home iwht just the two of us.

On Nov 13, 10:05*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote

Tell *each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
circulate the air and then things will even out.

Are you serious with that suggestion, Ed? *Besides the questions of
privacy, noise, and odors there's also security. *I don't know anyone
that would welcome such a request. *It's the landlord's responsibility
to provide heat to an apartment, not the tenant's to have to go and
get it.
R

Didn't think I'd need the smiley face.

We need a sarcasm one

Harry K

On Nov 13, 8:23*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:01*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



Have you put thermometers in the apartments to see what the actual
temperature is? * Also, remember that the apartments have a high heat loss
through outside walls and windows while the common area is well insulated by
those heated apartments. *You may have to set it higher to get the
apartments at proper temperature. * During the day, the apartments getting
sun will be warmer also.

Tell *each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
circulate the air and then things will even out.

Are you serious with that suggestion, Ed? *Besides the questions of
privacy, noise, and odors there's also security. *I don't know anyone
that would welcome such a request. *It's the landlord's responsibility
to provide heat to an apartment, not the tenant's to have to go and
get it.
R

Reading this thread makes me glad I own my house. I have enough
arguments with my wife about how warm it is were in here without
having to fight about it with an apartment sup as well .

Harry K

I have forced air heat now. That means by closing the bedroom doors at
night they get warmer than the rest of the house.

Una

On 11/14/2010 1:33 PM, Una wrote:
I have forced air heat now. That means by closing the bedroom doors at
night they get warmer than the rest of the house.

Una


Classic sign of a builder that cheaped out and didn't put air returns in
EVERY room like you are supposed to. It was confusing to me when I
started looking at houses other than the ones built by my father's
company, and only saw that one big-ass air return in the hallway.

--
aem sends...

"RobertPatrick" wrote in message
eb.com...
(Una) wrote in :

I have forced air heat now. That means by closing the bedroom doors at
night they get warmer than the rest of the house.

Una



I have forced air heat for years. BRs are always colder. They're
farthest
from the furnace.

They don't have to be. The system needs balancing. Even a simple thing
like partly closing the registers in other rooms to force more air to the
distant rooms.

On Nov 13, 7:04*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Put it in an apartment in a locked box.-

Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.

I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors

On Nov 15, 2:50*am, ransley wrote:
On Nov 13, 7:04*pm, Mikepier wrote:

Put it in an apartment in a locked box.-

Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.

I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but *have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote *sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors

How about isntalling thermostates in each apartment that aren't
connected to anything? Gives teh tenants a thrill thinkng they are in
control I have often thought of doing that in my house to cut down
on some of the "disagreements".

Harry K

On Nov 15, 10:36*am, Harry K wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:50*am, ransley wrote:

On Nov 13, 7:04*pm, Mikepier wrote:

Put it in an apartment in a locked box.-

Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.

I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but *have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote *sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors

How about isntalling thermostates in each apartment that aren't
connected to anything? *Gives teh tenants a thrill thinkng they are in
control *I have often thought of doing that in my house to cut down
on some of the "disagreements".

Harry K


Because WHEN, not IF the tenant's eventually figure out who to
complain to in the government (in my area it is the local board
of health) and an inspector comes out to check on the situation
and your fake thermostats and the psychological manipulation
of the tenants resulting from their installation will likely serve to
increase whatever fines and penalties result from the units
which are not maintaining the required temperatures deemed
necessary by the AHJ in the minimum standards for human
habitation...

Installing fake/false/dummy thermostats is a giant red flag
which says "i am a giant douche and rather than fix the
actual problem i am going to install a shiny toy on your
wall and make you think that you have some control over
your environment when in fact you do not"...

Either modernize the central heating system in your old
apartment building with a new control system which
allows you to have temperature sensors in all of the units
but allows you to retain control of the set points as the
landlord -- OR dump your old system and install electric
baseboard heating in all your units and let the tenants
pay to heat their rooms to whatever temperature they
desire...

Having a whole building heated off ONE thermostat
is insane... It DOESN'T account for the temperature
changes outside like a weather responsive controller
would NOR does it account for the fact that one side
of the building will be cooler than the other depending
on which way the wind is blowing...

You could covert your old single pipe steam system
into a hot water zoned system where each radiator
is it's own zone and could therefore have its own
thermostat in that room/space using a new controller
and some Pex piping...

Whichever way you choose to resolve this situation,
I would choose one soon and deal with it in a significant
way because the tenants can have you over a barrel
if they complain enough to the local AHJ which could
impose fines on you for your substandard system and
demand that you bring the system up to current codes
in a very rapid period of time in order for you to keep
collecting rent on what are essentially un-rentable units
because your heating system does not properly maintain
the temperatures in the habitable areas of the building...

Look at this symptom as an opportunity to invest in
your property and upgrade the heating system to be
more efficient... You choosing one setting where the
heating system maintains that temperature for one
area of the building where people are not living and
sleeping will definitely get you into trouble eventually...

~~ Evan

On Nov 15, 11:02*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 15, 10:36*am, Harry K wrote:





On Nov 15, 2:50*am, ransley wrote:

On Nov 13, 7:04*pm, Mikepier wrote:

Put it in an apartment in a locked box.-

Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.

I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but *have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote *sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors

How about isntalling thermostates in each apartment that aren't
connected to anything? *Gives teh tenants a thrill thinkng they are in
control *I have often thought of doing that in my house to cut down
on some of the "disagreements".

Harry K

Because WHEN, not IF the tenant's eventually figure out who to
complain to in the government (in my area it is the local board
of health) and an inspector comes out to check on the situation
and your fake thermostats and the psychological manipulation
of the tenants resulting from their installation will likely serve to
increase whatever fines and penalties result from the units
which are not maintaining the required temperatures deemed
necessary by the AHJ in the minimum standards for human
habitation...

Installing fake/false/dummy thermostats is a giant red flag
which says "i am a giant douche and rather than fix the
actual problem i am going to install a shiny toy on your
wall and make you think that you have some control over
your environment when in fact you do not"...

Either modernize the central heating system in your old
apartment building with a new control system which
allows you to have temperature sensors in all of the units
but allows you to retain control of the set points as the
landlord -- OR dump your old system and install electric
baseboard heating in all your units and let the tenants
pay to heat their rooms to whatever temperature they
desire...

Having a whole building heated off ONE thermostat
is insane... *It DOESN'T account for the temperature
changes outside like a weather responsive controller
would NOR does it account for the fact that one side
of the building will be cooler than the other depending
on which way the wind is blowing...

You could covert your old single pipe steam system
into a hot water zoned system where each radiator
is it's own zone and could therefore have its own
thermostat in that room/space using a new controller
and some Pex piping...

Whichever way you choose to resolve this situation,
I would choose one soon and deal with it in a significant
way because the tenants can have you over a barrel
if they complain enough to the local AHJ which could
impose fines on you for your substandard system and
demand that you bring the system up to current codes
in a very rapid period of time in order for you to keep
collecting rent on what are essentially un-rentable units
because your heating system does not properly maintain
the temperatures in the habitable areas of the building...

Look at this symptom as an opportunity to invest in
your property and upgrade the heating system to be
more efficient... *You choosing one setting where the
heating system maintains that temperature for one
area of the building where people are not living and
sleeping will definitely get you into trouble eventually...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You dont know too much, converting a low pressure steam system to
handle the pressure of water results in leaks, which can be a major
nightmare ruining the whole operation. You have very old pipe that
never saw the pressure water will introduce, steam leaks are usualy
no big deal, water leaks are a big deal. You assume he isnt supplying
heat and runs a substandard building and that the inspector will screw
him, I dont see that. I heat a 16 unit off one thermostat, its been
that way since 1928, I guess until modern averaging units came out
building owners were insane and tenants cold? BS. He just needs to
learn about venting, and remote sensor thermostats. With todays cheap
computers and option avalaible he can cheaply add a fancy stat he can
monitor, track, chart and adjust from his home.

On Nov 15, 9:02*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 15, 10:36*am, Harry K wrote:





On Nov 15, 2:50*am, ransley wrote:

On Nov 13, 7:04*pm, Mikepier wrote:

Put it in an apartment in a locked box.-

Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.

I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but *have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote *sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors

How about isntalling thermostates in each apartment that aren't
connected to anything? *Gives teh tenants a thrill thinkng they are in
control *I have often thought of doing that in my house to cut down
on some of the "disagreements".

Harry K

Because WHEN, not IF the tenant's eventually figure out who to
complain to in the government (in my area it is the local board
of health) and an inspector comes out to check on the situation
and your fake thermostats and the psychological manipulation
of the tenants resulting from their installation will likely serve to
increase whatever fines and penalties result from the units
which are not maintaining the required temperatures deemed
necessary by the AHJ in the minimum standards for human
habitation...

Installing fake/false/dummy thermostats is a giant red flag
which says "i am a giant douche and rather than fix the
actual problem i am going to install a shiny toy on your
wall and make you think that you have some control over
your environment when in fact you do not"...

Either modernize the central heating system in your old
apartment building with a new control system which
allows you to have temperature sensors in all of the units
but allows you to retain control of the set points as the
landlord -- OR dump your old system and install electric
baseboard heating in all your units and let the tenants
pay to heat their rooms to whatever temperature they
desire...

Having a whole building heated off ONE thermostat
is insane... *It DOESN'T account for the temperature
changes outside like a weather responsive controller
would NOR does it account for the fact that one side
of the building will be cooler than the other depending
on which way the wind is blowing...

You could covert your old single pipe steam system
into a hot water zoned system where each radiator
is it's own zone and could therefore have its own
thermostat in that room/space using a new controller
and some Pex piping...

Whichever way you choose to resolve this situation,
I would choose one soon and deal with it in a significant
way because the tenants can have you over a barrel
if they complain enough to the local AHJ which could
impose fines on you for your substandard system and
demand that you bring the system up to current codes
in a very rapid period of time in order for you to keep
collecting rent on what are essentially un-rentable units
because your heating system does not properly maintain
the temperatures in the habitable areas of the building...

Look at this symptom as an opportunity to invest in
your property and upgrade the heating system to be
more efficient... *You choosing one setting where the
heating system maintains that temperature for one
area of the building where people are not living and
sleeping will definitely get you into trouble eventually...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You did see the smiley? I'll give you a D grade on your rant. Some
of it even approaches reality.

Harry K

On Nov 16, 9:28*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 16, 12:01*am, Harry K wrote:





On Nov 15, 9:02*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 15, 10:36*am, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 15, 2:50*am, ransley wrote:

On Nov 13, 7:04*pm, Mikepier wrote:

Put it in an apartment in a locked box.-

Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.

I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but *have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote *sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors

How about isntalling thermostates in each apartment that aren't
connected to anything? *Gives teh tenants a thrill thinkng they are in
control *I have often thought of doing that in my house to cut down
on some of the "disagreements".

Harry K

Because WHEN, not IF the tenant's eventually figure out who to
complain to in the government (in my area it is the local board
of health) and an inspector comes out to check on the situation
and your fake thermostats and the psychological manipulation
of the tenants resulting from their installation will likely serve to
increase whatever fines and penalties result from the units
which are not maintaining the required temperatures deemed
necessary by the AHJ in the minimum standards for human
habitation...

Installing fake/false/dummy thermostats is a giant red flag
which says "i am a giant douche and rather than fix the
actual problem i am going to install a shiny toy on your
wall and make you think that you have some control over
your environment when in fact you do not"...

Either modernize the central heating system in your old
apartment building with a new control system which
allows you to have temperature sensors in all of the units
but allows you to retain control of the set points as the
landlord -- OR dump your old system and install electric
baseboard heating in all your units and let the tenants
pay to heat their rooms to whatever temperature they
desire...

Having a whole building heated off ONE thermostat
is insane... *It DOESN'T account for the temperature
changes outside like a weather responsive controller
would NOR does it account for the fact that one side
of the building will be cooler than the other depending
on which way the wind is blowing...

You could covert your old single pipe steam system
into a hot water zoned system where each radiator
is it's own zone and could therefore have its own
thermostat in that room/space using a new controller
and some Pex piping...

Whichever way you choose to resolve this situation,
I would choose one soon and deal with it in a significant
way because the tenants can have you over a barrel
if they complain enough to the local AHJ which could
impose fines on you for your substandard system and
demand that you bring the system up to current codes
in a very rapid period of time in order for you to keep
collecting rent on what are essentially un-rentable units
because your heating system does not properly maintain
the temperatures in the habitable areas of the building...

Look at this symptom as an opportunity to invest in
your property and upgrade the heating system to be
more efficient... *You choosing one setting where the
heating system maintains that temperature for one
area of the building where people are not living and
sleeping will definitely get you into trouble eventually...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You did see the smiley? * I'll give you a D grade on your rant. *Some
of it even approaches reality.

Harry K

Thanks, coming from someone who gets an F- for your own
reply, that's a compliment...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

LOL

Harry K

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 02:55:58 +0100, Sjouke Burry
wrote:

Mikepier wrote:
Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
thermostats.

In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
not calling for heat?

Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box. And on a
cold night I was down there, the actual temp in the hallway says 70
on the T-stat (T-stat does not call for heat until it drops below
70), but in the apt itself it feels colder, maybe 65. I feel as if
maybe where the T-stat is its warmer. So to compensate for this, I
raised it to 72. So far I have not heard complaints. But is this
usually a problem where T-stats are mounted in common areas, and you
have to try and find that "sweet spot?"
You have been suckered. At the ceiling the temp
in a room much higher than on the floor.
That themostat should have been at "living altitude".
Smart guy that landlord.

When I lived in a 49 apartment, 6 story building, the furnace didn't
seem to go by a thermostat. It had a control marked heat output.

The LL would illegally turn the heat down during the day when most but
by no means all people were at work. I had to use an electric heater
in my bedroom most of the winter. (Story about that omitted.) He also
had the photocell bypassed, so that it woudln't turn the furnace off
when the furnace room in the basement filled with smoke. One man
later told me his baby had gotten sick and died from the cold.

I broke into the furnace room, looked around, found the Heat Output
control, which was set for 5 or 6, say 5. I turned it up to 6,
removed the knob and put it back on pointing at 5. Then I closed up
the furnace room leaving no sign that I had been there. After that,
we were okay for the rest of that winter, and maybe the next winter
too. I never told any of the neighbors what I had done, because I
didn't know who could keep a secret.

"mm" wrote in message

I broke into the furnace room, looked around, found the Heat Output
control, which was set for 5 or 6, say 5. I turned it up to 6,
removed the knob and put it back on pointing at 5. Then I closed up
the furnace room leaving no sign that I had been there. After that,
we were okay for the rest of that winter, and maybe the next winter
too. I never told any of the neighbors what I had done, because I
didn't know who could keep a secret.

I kept a Bic lighter and a spray can of freon when I was in a "controlled
environment" - when I wanted more heat in the winter, I applied a little
freon to the thermostat that was locked in a tamper proof box. When I
wanted more cooling in the summer, a little blast from the Bic did the
trick - until I got careless and partly melted the box. (-;

--
Bobby G.