I am wondering what the recommendation is for the grains per gallon (gpg)
setting of a water softener.

Our city states the gpg is about 23, but a few years ago I had Sears do the
water test and they said that the sample (after it had went through
softener) was, if I remember correctly, 27. Thus I changed the setting to 25
on my softener since after that it requires increments of 5.

Today I had the water retested and Sears said the hardness was about 3 gpg,
which would mean the actual gpg before the softener is 28 gpg.

I called our city water department and spoke with the engineer who said it
is 23 gpg and that getting the gpg to 0 is not recommended as water that
soft is also not good for pipes, etc. His recommendation was to keep the
setting at 25 since it was showing about 3 gpg.

I called GE whose recommendation is to go 5 above the actual gpg and they
suggested going from 25 to 30 gpg.

So, knowing that my softener goes increments of 1 until 25 then increments
of 5 after that, what is best?

Thanks for your comments,

Ben

"Ben" wrote in message
.. .
I am wondering what the recommendation is for the grains per gallon (gpg)
setting of a water softener.

Our city states the gpg is about 23, but a few years ago I had Sears do
the water test and they said that the sample (after it had went through
softener) was, if I remember correctly, 27. Thus I changed the setting to
25 on my softener since after that it requires increments of 5.

Today I had the water retested and Sears said the hardness was about 3
gpg, which would mean the actual gpg before the softener is 28 gpg.

I called our city water department and spoke with the engineer who said it
is 23 gpg and that getting the gpg to 0 is not recommended as water that
soft is also not good for pipes, etc. His recommendation was to keep the
setting at 25 since it was showing about 3 gpg.

I called GE whose recommendation is to go 5 above the actual gpg and they
suggested going from 25 to 30 gpg.

So, knowing that my softener goes increments of 1 until 25 then increments
of 5 after that, what is best?

Thanks for your comments,

Ben

We have a water supply from several sources, mainly Lake Mead, which varies
in mineral content over several years. Yet it seems the published water
quality figures reflect an average value which may not be true in the short
term.

After some unproductive readjustment and some personal testing of softness
(which may be of limited precision) I finally decided to monitor the
glassware coming out of the dishwasher. If the items show water spots, I
need to make an upward adjustment in the hardness setting. For me anyway,
that's the item that triggers concern.

Incidentally, if you want to test for hardness yourself, aquarium supply
stores should have kits. Get the one that tests for total hardness.

SJF

I also use the "is the clear glass coming out of the dishwasher spotted
or not?" test.

To test your hardness, you should get a sample from a faucet BEFORE it
is softened.
That will tell you the hardness grains.



My understanding of the softnening process is something like this:
1) by changing the hardness setting you affect TWO things
a) how often your softner thinks it needs to soften
b) how much salt it uses when it does soften

It takes your hardness setting and multiplies it by the number of
gallons of water used to determine total grains.
It makes a "guess" as to whether or not you can make it through another
day without softening.
If not, it sets the softner to recharge that night.

When it is time to recharge, if the hardness is "high" it adds more
water to the tank, which disolves more salt, which puts more ions into
the recharge media.
Some areas, like here in California, limit the amount of salt in order
to reduce the salt in the outflow.
THis will cause the softener to recharge more often to compensate.


Note that:
If it guesses wrong (because you set the hardness too low or because
the water changed) then, it will run out of softening ions and draw
hard water into your system - if it is hot water, like a shower or
dishwasher, then you will have residual hard water in the water heater
the next day.

So, your choices a
Save water and Salt by setting the hardness lower
Have cleaner glassware and be more resilient to "anomalous high use
days" by setting the hardness higher.

"philkryder" wrote in message
ups.com...
I also use the "is the clear glass coming out of the dishwasher spotted
or not?" test.

To test your hardness, you should get a sample from a faucet BEFORE it
is softened.
That will tell you the hardness grains.



My understanding of the softnening process is something like this:
1) by changing the hardness setting you affect TWO things
a) how often your softner thinks it needs to soften
b) how much salt it uses when it does soften

It takes your hardness setting and multiplies it by the number of
gallons of water used to determine total grains.
It makes a "guess" as to whether or not you can make it through another
day without softening.
If not, it sets the softner to recharge that night.

When it is time to recharge, if the hardness is "high" it adds more
water to the tank, which disolves more salt, which puts more ions into
the recharge media.
Some areas, like here in California, limit the amount of salt in order
to reduce the salt in the outflow.
THis will cause the softener to recharge more often to compensate.


Note that:
If it guesses wrong (because you set the hardness too low or because
the water changed) then, it will run out of softening ions and draw
hard water into your system - if it is hot water, like a shower or
dishwasher, then you will have residual hard water in the water heater
the next day.

So, your choices a
Save water and Salt by setting the hardness lower
Have cleaner glassware and be more resilient to "anomalous high use
days" by setting the hardness higher.

My GE softener, which uses a control mechanism used by most home softeners,
injects the same amount of saturated brine containing about 4# of salt each
cycle. This is not user adjustable. When you enter the hardness number,
the softener's computer calculates the number of gallons the recharge will
soften. Then, when the water meter within the softener shows that amount is
nearly exhausted, the unit will be set to recharge again the next night. If
I go away for a week or two, the softener will not recharge because there
has been no water use.

Older softeners used a simple clock mechanism. My previous unit recharged
every six days based on my estimates of average use. There was no response
to varying use and, obviously, much wasted salt.

SJF

Thanks to everyone who responded. So, it appears that the gpg setting just
tells the softener how often to recharge so it can keep the ions clean. If
one under estimates the hardness, it may not regen before the ions are in
need of cleaning and that may cause hard water untilt he regen. If one
estimates higher than actual hardness, it will just regen more often.

Thus, for example, even if the setting was wrong it should be able to soften
the water immediately after a regen since the ions will be clean. If the
water was tested the day after a regen and it still had 3 gpg would that
indicate it is not sofenting correctly? Or, perhaps, is that normal given
the accuracy of the tests?

"Ben" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks to everyone who responded. So, it appears that the gpg setting just
tells the softener how often to recharge so it can keep the ions clean. If
one under estimates the hardness, it may not regen before the ions are in
need of cleaning and that may cause hard water untilt he regen. If one
estimates higher than actual hardness, it will just regen more often.

Thus, for example, even if the setting was wrong it should be able to
soften the water immediately after a regen since the ions will be clean.
If the water was tested the day after a regen and it still had 3 gpg would
that indicate it is not sofenting correctly? Or, perhaps, is that normal
given the accuracy of the tests?

If the water coming out of a softener is not 0 gpg hard, then the
softener is not working correctly. Although it's true that man can not
get all the hardness out of water; even using DI equipment, in
residential water treatment, water is either hard or soft, there's no
in between or any such thing as "too" soft. A gpg (grain per gallon) is
17.1 mg/l or ppm.

Every softener in the world has a means to adjust the salt dose. Doing
so adjusts the capacity because the capacity is dictated by the salt
dose in a given volume and type of resin or Zeolite (they are not the
same).

The problem is that many companies and dealers do not tell the consumer
how to adjust the salt dose/capacity.

The hardness setting must be based on the maximum 'compensated'
hardness the softener is going to 'see' from one time to another. And
all other positive charged ions that are in the water will also be
removed; such as ferrous iron, copper, lead, manganese etc.. Adding
them in determines the compensated hardness.

The vast majority of cities have more than one source of water and over
a year will be sending various mixes of those waters to their
customers. So use the highest amount of hardness otherwise the capacity
of the softener will be exceeded before it regenerates and you'll get
hard water through the softener; or the leakage through the softener
will be increased.

The water companies say softened water will damage plumbing.... not
true. Their water has to be acidic to damage plumbing if the hardness
in their water is removed by a softener. They would rather the hardness
scale be there to protect the plumbing, which can damage plumbing but
the hardness will damage the water using appliances, your clothes and
cause premature wear of everything washed in their hard water while
increasing your cost to heat water due to higher energy use and
replacement costs of water heaters and/or their elements.

To learn how to set up a softener:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...izingchart.htm

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

There's only one or two softener control valves in the US that
regenerate based on a varying hardness. They don't work very well or
very long.

All other control valves/softeners use a math formula used to establish
the "hardness", actually called compensated hardness that a softener
must be set up to deal with. Unless the control valve has a variable
reserve or calendar override feature, a softener only knows when to
regenerate based on days or gallons since the last regeneration and the
time or gallons will be programmed into the control based on the math
used.

For the formula, see my softener sizing chart page link in another of
my replies.

Gray
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
oups.com...
If the water coming out of a softener is not 0 gpg hard, then the
softener is not working correctly. Although it's true that man can not
get all the hardness out of water; even using DI equipment, in
residential water treatment, water is either hard or soft, there's no
in between or any such thing as "too" soft. A gpg (grain per gallon) is
17.1 mg/l or ppm.
I had another Sears store test the water and he got about 5 gpg (previous
store got 3 gpg), but I don't think he really paid much attention to when
the color changed.

I'm going to contact GE about the water not being 0 gpg and will report back
if there is anything of significance.

Thanks,

Ben

I contacted GE and they too agree that right after a regen there should be
no more than 1 gpg. They are scheduling service for the unit.

Any ideas on what could be in need of repair on the unit, which is 5.5 years
old?

Ben

The usual cause is leakage through the resin bed caused by your peak
demand being higher than the softener can treat. IOWs the softener is
too small based on its SFR. Or... the softener has been run out of salt
and not regenerated with the max salt dose for the volume and type of
resin used; and then repeated as soon as possible with as little water
use as possible between the two regenerations. Or it is setup
incorrectly for your water use between regenerations. Check my web site
for setup info.

There's no sense in paying for a service call to tell you they can't
find anything wrong. Go here www.kemorewater.com and watch the
animations and troubleshooting. You can check yours against that and
fix it yourself. The only difference between your GE and the Kenmore is
the GE uses a different motor; all other control valve parts are the
same, along with how it works.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

Sorry, that should be www.kenmorewater.com.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

There's no sense in paying for a service call to tell you they can't
find anything wrong. Go here www.kemorewater.com and watch the
animations and troubleshooting. You can check yours against that and
Thanks for getting back with the correct link, but I figured out the missing
letter.

I also checked out your web site, but did not see any specifics. What part
of your web site were you referring me to?

Also, the unit is still covered by an extended warranty, so there is no
service cost. I forced a regen after it was worked on and checked the water
the next day.

Someone will be out next week to test the water and look over the unit. The
unit is obviously doing something as the water hardness for the city is 23
gpg and after the softener it is 3 gpg. That test was done without other
devices pulling water at the same time.

I don't have a clue as to why it is not less than 3 gpg, unless the test
performed by Sears was flawed.

Ben

Interestingly, my neighbor just had his water tested through a water
softener and his test was 4 gpg at Sears.

"... of saturated brine containing about 4# of salt each
cycle. This is not user adjustable...."

I agree.
I did not mean to imply that it was user adjustable.
Some times it is user adjustable in some models.
Also, some model varys the amount of salt based on the internal
computers' calculation of need.
Some models do not do this, because it would contravene the legal
efficiency required.

"There's only one or two softener control valves in the US that
regenerate based on a varying hardness."

I didn't mean to imply that the unit measured the hardness either of
the input or the out put.

Rather, I agree with you that consumer enters an estimate of the
hardness which affects the recycle time an in some cases the amount of
salt used.

Do you sell any of the units that use TWO resin bed tanks and a
separate brine tank?
It seems that these would be the most resilient to varying usage and
would get every last possible ion out of the water with minimun risk of
letting hard water throug....
Phil

"Ben" wrote in message
...
Interestingly, my neighbor just had his water tested through a water
softener and his test was 4 gpg at Sears.
To follow-up with everyone who helped me. Service came out and I watched
them test the water, both hot and cold.

Their tests showed 0 gpg.

Did you have them test your INPUT water BEFORE the softner?

That would be a good data point to tell you what setting to use....

Ben wrote:

I also checked out your web site, but did not see any specifics. What part
of your web site were you referring me to?

Also, the unit is still covered by an extended warranty, so there is no
service cost. I forced a regen after it was worked on and checked the water
the next day.

I don't have a clue as to why it is not less than 3 gpg, unless the test
performed by Sears was flawed.

Ben

IMO, extended warranties are a rip off.

The sizing chart page is:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...izingchart.htm

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

Not really. The hardness gpg setting is one of the settings. Another is
the salt dose. And the salt dose depends on the volume and type of
resin being used, the water quality and how much water is used etc..

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

When you say "law", I take it you are from CA and are referring to the
minimum 3400 grains per lb salt efficiency they want. To my knowledge,
they are the only state with the "law" BUT, anyone selling softeners
should be sizing and setting them up for the best salt dose efficiency.

I did mean that they measure the hardness and regenerate accordingly.

No one should use an "estimate" of the hardness, iron, manganese etc.,
all of those parameters should be set according to accurate and current
data. Otherwise there's little chance the softener will/can work
correctly.

Yes I do, they are called immediate regenerated twin tank models; I
have some 5-6 different versions. They are sized and setup the same as
a two tank model, using the same current and accurate data, and then
based on the SFR and other 'things'. Very few homes need a twin tank
softener due to not having an hour and a half during the night when
water isn't being used so a two tank model can be used.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com

And my guess is that the unit had regenerated since the last test
showed 4 gpg, or 3 gpg or whatever it was. To see if the unit is
working correctly everyday, not allowing any leakage (hardness in the
softened water), you need to test the softened water daily between
regenerations. For the last 16-18 years I've been giving all my
softener customers a small test kit to do that with.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com