I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace or is
there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in the dark
or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents, detached
insulation, etc.

On Nov 3, 2:16*am, "james" wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace or is
there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in the dark
or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents, detached
insulation, etc.

If it is fairly smooth it could work, that looks very easy to high
center. Were that to happen, you would have to crawl to retrieve it.
Built in light? you could attach a small led flashlight to it.
Here is another thought: http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/usa/

IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

"deadgoose" wrote in message
...
IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

Tie a string to it so if it flips, you can haul it out. After watching a TV
show where they were hauling dead and maggot-ridden possums and skunks out
from under the crawl space, I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement. Repairing *anything* serious in a crawl space
turns a fairly routine job into a near-lunar expedition, complete with
bio-hazards from the parasites and other creatures that inhabit living and
dead possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. You have my sympathy. Gives me a good
idea, though. Start a plumbing and electrical company staffed by midgets
specializing in crawlspace work. (-:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. It was probably a good building strategy when there was no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.

On 11/3/2010 2:16 AM, james wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace
or is there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in
the dark or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents,
detached insulation, etc.

you could tie a light line to it incase you have to drag it back or
something. I know in one house we have, there IS no going in the crawl
space. It's about 8" from the joists to the dirt.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Robert Green wrote:
....

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

On Nov 3, 10:35*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"deadgoose" wrote in message

...

IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

Tie a string to it so if it flips, you can haul it out. *After watching a TV
show where they were hauling dead and maggot-ridden possums and skunks out
from under the crawl space, I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement. *Repairing *anything* serious in a crawl space
turns a fairly routine job into a near-lunar expedition, complete with
bio-hazards from the parasites and other creatures that inhabit living and
dead possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. *You have my sympathy. *Gives me a good
idea, though. *Start a plumbing and electrical company staffed by midgets
specializing in crawlspace work. *(-:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. *It was probably a good building strategy when there was no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? *Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.

High water table, would be my guess.

nate

On 11/3/2010 9:35 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

Tie a string to it so if it flips, you can haul it out. After watching a TV
show where they were hauling dead and maggot-ridden possums and skunks out
from under the crawl space, I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement. Repairing *anything* serious in a crawl space
turns a fairly routine job into a near-lunar expedition, complete with
bio-hazards from the parasites and other creatures that inhabit living and
dead possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. You have my sympathy. Gives me a good
idea, though. Start a plumbing and electrical company staffed by midgets
specializing in crawlspace work. (-:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. It was probably a good building strategy when there was no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.



It's easy enough to keep the serious critters out of a crawl space. The
bugs and small things won't hurt you.

as for your question about no basements, well in someparts of the
country it is solid rock. Can't dig. Hard enough to put in a frost
footing. In other areas, no tornadoes, so no basement needed. Build on
a slab. It's cheap. Ever watch extreme home makeover on sunday
nights?? Those fancified mcmansions are ALL built on slabs. It's the
only way they can do it in a week. Crawl spaces are not the end of the
world, but i sure do wish the folks in the old days would have made the
house just 8 or 10 inches taller off the ground. LOL! I'm not as skinny
as i used to be. And the house i live in has the joists 8" off the
dirt. and NO access to the space anyway.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Nov 3, 9:35*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"deadgoose" wrote in message

...

IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

Tie a string to it so if it flips, you can haul it out. *After watching a TV
show where they were hauling dead and maggot-ridden possums and skunks out
from under the crawl space, I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement. *Repairing *anything* serious in a crawl space
turns a fairly routine job into a near-lunar expedition, complete with
bio-hazards from the parasites and other creatures that inhabit living and
dead possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. *You have my sympathy. *Gives me a good
idea, though. *Start a plumbing and electrical company staffed by midgets
specializing in crawlspace work. *(-:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. *It was probably a good building strategy when there was no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? *Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.

2 words: flash floods

Eric in North TX wrote:
On Nov 3, 2:16 am, "james" wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really
enjoy crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the
crawlspace or is there something more appropriate? The camera would
need to see in the dark or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents,
detached insulation, etc.

If it is fairly smooth it could work, that looks very easy to high
center. Were that to happen, you would have to crawl to retrieve it.
Built in light? you could attach a small led flashlight to it.
Here is another thought:
http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/usa/

So you can zap any rodents you see?

On Nov 3, 2:16*am, "james" wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace or is
there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in the dark
or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents, detached
insulation, etc.

Video camera from Harbor Freight? Radio Shack? For light install a
proper lamp assembly fitted with a CFL.

Joe

On Nov 3, 10:35*am, "Robert Green" wrote:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements.

Here in Florida, those are called swimming pools.

Water table too high. Cellars fill with water.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Robert Green"
wrote in message ...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries
don't
have basements. It was probably a good building strategy when there
was no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.

Steve Barker wrote in
:

On 11/3/2010 2:16 AM, james wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace
or is there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in
the dark or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents,
detached insulation, etc.

you could tie a light line to it incase you have to drag it back or
something. I know in one house we have, there IS no going in the crawl
space. It's about 8" from the joists to the dirt.


Oh yes there is going there. 6 mos ago the last place I rehabbed was just
that. Fortunately dry. Took wireless house phone with me for sure. If I had
a Fred Sanford "Big One" under there it would have been a CSI desert
recovery and ID by the time I was found.

On 11/3/2010 10:47 AM, dpb wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...

--
A properly built and drained basement makes those occurrences extremely
rare. I know the soil conditions and water tables in some areas make
basements problematical, but unless I absolutely had to live someplace
they were totally impractical, I would find a basement, or go with a
well built slab house. I hate crawls with a passion. Or if cost was no
object, I'd find a lot that was big enough to make a hill that was above
the water table.
(That last tactic is pretty common with McMansions in bayou country.
Looks nicer than the houses on stilts.)

--
aem sends...

On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 04:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Eric in North TX
wrote:

On Nov 3, 2:16Â*am, "james" wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace or is
there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in the dark
or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents, detached
insulation, etc.

If it is fairly smooth it could work, that looks very easy to high
center. Were that to happen, you would have to crawl to retrieve it.
Built in light? you could attach a small led flashlight to it.
Here is another thought: http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/usa/

Tie a string to it to retrieve it if it gets stuck. I use an RC truck
to pull cable over suspended ceilings quite often. If it gets hung up,
I yank on the fish-cord to get it unstuck, then let it go again.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:47:21 -0500, dpb wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...
There ARE other options
Basement, or on slab, I'd never buy a house with a crawl-space. (or a
flat roof)

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...

Clearly. Well, I've had leaking ones, but I'd rather deal with that than
crawl under the house on a hot day to fix a cracked pipe lying next to a
dead skunk, a cadre of spiders and loads of other things that seem to call
crawlspaces "home sweet home."

Is soil instability the only reason to omit basements (aside from cost)?

--
Bobby G.

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
On 11/3/2010 10:47 AM, dpb wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries
don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...

--
A properly built and drained basement makes those occurrences extremely
rare. I know the soil conditions and water tables in some areas make
basements problematical, but unless I absolutely had to live someplace
they were totally impractical, I would find a basement, or go with a
well built slab house. I hate crawls with a passion.

I've never been under one, never want to be, either. You just can't do your
best repair work choking on rotting raccoon dust squished in like a sardine.
We've nearly rewired the house to be all grounded circuit outlets (it was
two wire). If I had to do it from a crawlspace and not the basement, it
wouldn't have gotten done.

One thing I noticed in the crawlspace they showed on DJ's was all the loops
of unsecured wiring under the house. Probably not professional work but
I'll bet neatness suffers when the repairman is unhappy. Those loops make
it doubly hard to move without snagging and breaking something. I think
I'll go have a party for my basement in my basment tonight. I didn't know
how good I had it until I saw the raccoon ridden crawl space exploration on
Dirty Jobs.

Or if cost was no object, I'd find a lot that was big enough to make a
hill that was above
the water table.
(That last tactic is pretty common with McMansions in bayou country.
Looks nicer than the houses on stilts.)

At least you could take a workboat under a house with stilts. I'm assuming
that no basements are standard in areas like NOLA because they bury people
above ground which has to be a testament to how unstable the ground is.
I've only lived in the north and mid east, and real estate values probably
help dictate the desire for basements. The more it costs per square foot,
the more temptation there is to expand that real estate upward and downward.
The area we're looking in has a lot of basementless houses. Since I can't
crawl around under them anyway anymore, I shouldn't care. It's a younger
man's worry now I suppose.

I'm having enough trouble deposing of the stuff that builds up in a basement
over time - stereos that need fixing, broken appliances, not quite dead yet
auto parts for cars I no longer own, old porch lamps, new porch lamps that
are waiting for new porch, plywood scraps, pipe scraps, useless plexiglas,
half dead batteries, dead battery tools awaiting rebuilds, old PCs, lots of
spools of wire, soda bottles filled with paint (so they don't rust in the
bucket), plumbing tools, wiring tools, old shoplites, new shoplites, so much
stuff to get rid of. Hmmm. That wouldn't happen with only a crawl space.
Maybe they do have a use.

--
Bobby G.

On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:35:49 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement.

You're not moving to Florida, then. (Might be a good thing for those
of us already here as well as for you. My mom used to have a bumper
sticker "leaving Florida? take a friend".) Basements are rare in
Florida, and pretty much non-existent in residential building.

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements.

High expense when it's not needed to get below the frost line. In
north Florida, the frost line is about 1/4" below the surface. In
south Florida, it's at the top of the grass. Plus the water table is
almost never 8' down, so a basement has to have a floor and the walls
and floor have to be not only watertight but keep out 2 to 4 psi.
Basically you have a houseboat.

If you don't like repairing something in a crawl space, try repairing
it when it's embedded in a slab.

But I agree, an 8" crawl space is beyond stupid. They don't have to be
like that. I can sit up in mine in the most cramped corner. At the
access door, I can sit up and have space between my head and the
joists. Eventually I plan to seal it with 6 mil poly and put down
boards to slide on -- cleaner and keep the humidity out.

So the problem is not a crawl space per se, but a crawl space that's
stupidly small.

Edward

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:47:21 -0500, dpb wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries
don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...
There ARE other options
Basement, or on slab, I'd never buy a house with a crawl-space. (or a
flat roof)

It seems to me a slab is just as troublesome as a crawlspace, just in
different ways. At least you won't have rotting skunks in a slab. My wife
freaked when she learned that critters especially like to nest in the area
up and around the bath tub in houses with crawlspaces.

--
Bobby G.

"Edward Reid" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:35:49 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement.

You're not moving to Florida, then. (Might be a good thing for those
of us already here as well as for you. My mom used to have a bumper
sticker "leaving Florida? take a friend".) Basements are rare in
Florida, and pretty much non-existent in residential building.

No worries, I'm not moving to the Hurricane Belt. Got socked in with Opal
in Montgomery, Alabama. Once is enough.

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements.

High expense when it's not needed to get below the frost line. In
north Florida, the frost line is about 1/4" below the surface. In
south Florida, it's at the top of the grass. Plus the water table is
almost never 8' down, so a basement has to have a floor and the walls
and floor have to be not only watertight but keep out 2 to 4 psi.
Basically you have a houseboat.

That makes sense. Another mystery of life revealed.

If you don't like repairing something in a crawl space, try repairing
it when it's embedded in a slab.

On the one hand, the slab would keep critters from chewing on wires, but on
the other hand, when you need to do something, it's a hell of a mess.

But I agree, an 8" crawl space is beyond stupid. They don't have to be
like that. I can sit up in mine in the most cramped corner. At the
access door, I can sit up and have space between my head and the
joists. Eventually I plan to seal it with 6 mil poly and put down
boards to slide on -- cleaner and keep the humidity out.

That makes more sense, but it seems that you have to be vigilant about the
keeping the vents screened and with something a little sturdier than
aluminum screening.

So the problem is not a crawl space per se, but a crawl space that's
stupidly small.

I'll still take a basement every time. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Nov 4, 10:02*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:47:21 -0500, dpb wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries
don't
have basements. *...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...
* There ARE other options
Basement, or on slab, I'd never buy a house with a crawl-space. (or a
flat roof)

It seems to me a slab is just as troublesome as a crawlspace, just in
different ways. *At least you won't have rotting skunks in a slab. *My wife
freaked when she learned that critters especially like to nest in the area
up and around the bath tub in houses with crawlspaces.

--
Bobby G.

ok, which is worse. Crawling on your back in a cool crawlspace to fix
an electrical issue, or getting in an hot attic of a slab house in
July in the South.

rlz wrote in
:

On Nov 4, 10:02*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:47:21 -0500, dpb wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the
countries
don't
have basements. *...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay
soil heave, etc., etc., etc., ...
* There ARE other options
Basement, or on slab, I'd never buy a house with a crawl-space. (or
a flat roof)

It seems to me a slab is just as troublesome as a crawlspace, just in
different ways. *At least you won't have rotting skunks in a slab. *M
y wife
freaked when she learned that critters especially like to nest in the
are
a
up and around the bath tub in houses with crawlspaces.

--
Bobby G.

ok, which is worse. Crawling on your back in a cool crawlspace to fix
an electrical issue, or getting in an hot attic of a slab house in
July in the South.



errrrr..... depends :-)

Done both - in the south. No creepies in the attic and it's dry. At least
you can go up in the morning or later evening when it's cool or plan it
on a rainy/cloudy day. Lot easier to bring stuff in as well as move
around.

Then again, you can't always plan when you do it.

Went up in the attic once with the AC guy, in the south, 96 (temp &
humidity) and sunny. I thought it couldn't get worse. Then he fired up
the map torch.

On Nov 3, 3:16*am, "james" wrote:
I want to inspect the crawlspace once in a while but don't really enjoy
crawling in it.

Can you use the trakr (RC video camera tank) to inspect the crawlspace or is
there something more appropriate? The camera would need to see in the dark
or have built-in light.

Things I want to checks are : water on the vapor barrier, rodents, detached
insulation, etc.

Watch this excerpt from Modern Family, Season 1, Episode 16.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/132151/modern-family-truck

If you can find the entire episode someplace, the "RC spy car as
crawlspace inspection device?" question will be answered for you.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 00:15:34 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Edward Reid" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:35:49 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement.

You're not moving to Florida, then. (Might be a good thing for those
of us already here as well as for you. My mom used to have a bumper
sticker "leaving Florida? take a friend".) Basements are rare in
Florida, and pretty much non-existent in residential building.

No worries, I'm not moving to the Hurricane Belt. Got socked in with Opal
in Montgomery, Alabama. Once is enough.

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements.

High expense when it's not needed to get below the frost line. In
north Florida, the frost line is about 1/4" below the surface. In
south Florida, it's at the top of the grass. Plus the water table is
almost never 8' down, so a basement has to have a floor and the walls
and floor have to be not only watertight but keep out 2 to 4 psi.
Basically you have a houseboat.

That makes sense. Another mystery of life revealed.

If you don't like repairing something in a crawl space, try repairing
it when it's embedded in a slab.

On the one hand, the slab would keep critters from chewing on wires, but on
the other hand, when you need to do something, it's a hell of a mess.

That depends how it is built. In a slab, wires can run in "ducts" or
"conduits" - no strapping required - to replace just drag the new wire
in with the old in a conduit, or remove the duct cover in the floor -
but MOST utilities in on-slab are run overhead.. MOST on-slabs are
also only single storey construction (bungalow) so all the utilities
are in the attic - and very often also the furnace and central air.
Forced air heat requires significant pre-planning if you want floor
mounted registers, but in-floor radiant heat is very common in on-slab
homes.

But I agree, an 8" crawl space is beyond stupid. They don't have to be
like that. I can sit up in mine in the most cramped corner. At the
access door, I can sit up and have space between my head and the
joists. Eventually I plan to seal it with 6 mil poly and put down
boards to slide on -- cleaner and keep the humidity out.

That makes more sense, but it seems that you have to be vigilant about the
keeping the vents screened and with something a little sturdier than
aluminum screening.

So the problem is not a crawl space per se, but a crawl space that's
stupidly small.

I'll still take a basement every time. (-:

On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 08:04:26 -0700 (PDT), rlz wrote:

On Nov 4, 10:02Â*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:47:21 -0500, dpb wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries
don't
have basements. Â*...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay soil
heave, etc., etc., etc., ...
Â* There ARE other options
Basement, or on slab, I'd never buy a house with a crawl-space. (or a
flat roof)

It seems to me a slab is just as troublesome as a crawlspace, just in
different ways. Â*At least you won't have rotting skunks in a slab. Â*My wife
freaked when she learned that critters especially like to nest in the area
up and around the bath tub in houses with crawlspaces.

--
Bobby G.

ok, which is worse. Crawling on your back in a cool crawlspace to fix
an electrical issue, or getting in an hot attic of a slab house in
July in the South.
It's a toss-up. They should build on-slab housed with "lunch box"
roofs in the south. Just pop the roof open when repairs are needed
inside.
Side benefit - if a huricane takes the roof, just clip a new one on
:}

"deadgoose" wrote in message
...

IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

That was interesting, they got to a door made of a huge slab of stone with
some copper fittings to keep it from being raised to open it, and that's as
far as they got. I wonder if they ever figured out what was on the other
side of the door? cue spooky music

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...

"deadgoose" wrote in message
...

IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

That was interesting, they got to a door made of a huge slab of stone with
some copper fittings to keep it from being raised to open it, and that's
as
far as they got. I wonder if they ever figured out what was on the other
side of the door? cue spooky music

Geraldo Rivera.

--
Bobby G.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 11/3/2010 9:35 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

...
IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

Tie a string to it so if it flips, you can haul it out. After watching
a TV
show where they were hauling dead and maggot-ridden possums and skunks
out
from under the crawl space, I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement. Repairing *anything* serious in a crawl space
turns a fairly routine job into a near-lunar expedition, complete with
bio-hazards from the parasites and other creatures that inhabit living
and
dead possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. You have my sympathy. Gives me a
good
idea, though. Start a plumbing and electrical company staffed by
midgets
specializing in crawlspace work. (-:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. It was probably a good building strategy when there was
no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.


It's easy enough to keep the serious critters out of a crawl space. The
bugs and small things won't hurt you.

Tell that to my Marine buddy and his son who went coon hunting near Quantico
and ending up covered in ticks. Close to 300. Little things can hurt you
just as badly as some of the big ones. (-: Squirrels laughed at my first
attempts to screen them out of the attic. Now the vents are covered with
1/4" thick metal gridwork of the kind seen on metal stair risers on old
front stoops. Apparently if the squirrels were raised in the attic, they
want back in very badly and will chew wherever they can catch a whiff of
their old haunts.

as for your question about no basements, well in someparts of the
country it is solid rock. Can't dig. Hard enough to put in a frost
footing.

That makes sense. It also makes sense, as other have suggested, to have
basement in an area with a high water table or in areas prone to flash
floods. It's sound like areas without basements have some serious "other"
issues to consider. When I see interviews with people in flood areas on the
news saying it's their fourth or fifth total innundation, I ask myself
"What does it take to get people to move to higher ground?"

In other areas, no tornadoes, so no basement needed. Build on
a slab.

Are basements really built outside tornado alley just to provide refuge? I
wonder if it's a throwback to the days of root cellars and once the trend
of basements got going it didn't stop - until it met areas where it was not
a good idea.

It's cheap. Ever watch extreme home makeover on sunday
nights?? Those fancified mcmansions are ALL built on slabs.

Watching them would just encourage them. (-:

It's the
only way they can do it in a week. Crawl spaces are not the end of the
world,

No, they're just the *gateway* to the end of the world . . . (-"

but i sure do wish the folks in the old days would have made the
house just 8 or 10 inches taller off the ground. LOL! I'm not as skinny
as i used to be.

When you get to be as skinny as you were when you're older than say 50, it's
usually not a very good thing. Be thankful for that fat. Well, some of it,
anyway.

And the house i live in has the joists 8" off the
dirt. and NO access to the space anyway.

Mike Rowe was working in a damn tight space - so tight he was getting his
butt snagged when backing up. It couldn't have been much taller than 12 or
14" inches worth of space. And all they were doing was inspecting and
removing dead raccoon and skunk carcasses. Working under there just has to
be grim. What I would worry about is how long it could take to get out of
there if you had an accident, got some chemicals in your eye or whatever?
Tank crews have a loop on their backs for quick extraction and they're not
cramped at all compared to some crawl spaces. Of course, your average house
won't blow a 100' crater if the stored ammo lights up accidentally.

--
Bobby G.

"Eric in North TX" wrote in message
...
On Nov 3, 9:35 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"deadgoose" wrote in message

...

IIRC, there was a show on the history channel showing such a strategy
to explore one of the air shafts in one of the pyramids. Worst case,
you would have to crawl in and retrieve it.

Tie a string to it so if it flips, you can haul it out. After watching a
TV
show where they were hauling dead and maggot-ridden possums and skunks out
from under the crawl space, I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement. Repairing *anything* serious in a crawl space
turns a fairly routine job into a near-lunar expedition, complete with
bio-hazards from the parasites and other creatures that inhabit living and
dead possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. You have my sympathy. Gives me a good
idea, though. Start a plumbing and electrical company staffed by midgets
specializing in crawlspace work. (-:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements. It was probably a good building strategy when there was no
plumbing, CATV or electric in houses, but now? Uh uh.

--
Bobby G.

2 words: flash floods

That sounds like a good reason. I've never seen rain like I saw in
Orlanda, FL when I visited one spring. Had to pull off the road it was
raining so hard and even that was just guesswork. I figure the windshield
wipers couldn't have kept up even if the wiping speed was increased 100X.
It was like walking under a waterfall.

--
Bobby G.

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
On Nov 3, 10:35 am, "Robert Green" wrote:

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries don't
have basements.

Here in Florida, those are called swimming pools.

I'm beginning to get the picture.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 00:15:34 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Edward Reid" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:35:49 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
I am now thoroughly convinced NEVER to buy a
house without a basement.

You're not moving to Florida, then. (Might be a good thing for those
of us already here as well as for you. My mom used to have a bumper
sticker "leaving Florida? take a friend".) Basements are rare in
Florida, and pretty much non-existent in residential building.

No worries, I'm not moving to the Hurricane Belt. Got socked in with
Opal
in Montgomery, Alabama. Once is enough.

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the countries
don't
have basements.

High expense when it's not needed to get below the frost line. In
north Florida, the frost line is about 1/4" below the surface. In
south Florida, it's at the top of the grass. Plus the water table is
almost never 8' down, so a basement has to have a floor and the walls
and floor have to be not only watertight but keep out 2 to 4 psi.
Basically you have a houseboat.

That makes sense. Another mystery of life revealed.

If you don't like repairing something in a crawl space, try repairing
it when it's embedded in a slab.

On the one hand, the slab would keep critters from chewing on wires, but
on
the other hand, when you need to do something, it's a hell of a mess.

That depends how it is built. In a slab, wires can run in "ducts" or
"conduits" - no strapping required - to replace just drag the new wire
in with the old in a conduit, or remove the duct cover in the floor -
but MOST utilities in on-slab are run overhead.. MOST on-slabs are
also only single storey construction (bungalow) so all the utilities
are in the attic - and very often also the furnace and central air.
Forced air heat requires significant pre-planning if you want floor
mounted registers, but in-floor radiant heat is very common in on-slab
homes.

What about the toilets, sinks and tub drains? They surely can't run *those*
overhead. (-"

--
Bobby G.

On 11/5/2010 10:29 AM, Red Green wrote:
wrote in
:

On Nov 4, 10:02 pm, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:47:21 -0500, wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
...

I've never been able to figure out why some areas of the
countries
don't
have basements. ...

Clearly you've never had a leaking one or failed walls from clay
soil heave, etc., etc., etc., ...
There ARE other options
Basement, or on slab, I'd never buy a house with a crawl-space. (or
a flat roof)

It seems to me a slab is just as troublesome as a crawlspace, just in
different ways. At least you won't have rotting skunks in a slab. M
y wife
freaked when she learned that critters especially like to nest in the
are
a
up and around the bath tub in houses with crawlspaces.

--
Bobby G.

ok, which is worse. Crawling on your back in a cool crawlspace to fix
an electrical issue, or getting in an hot attic of a slab house in
July in the South.



errrrr..... depends :-)

Done both - in the south. No creepies in the attic and it's dry. At least
you can go up in the morning or later evening when it's cool or plan it
on a rainy/cloudy day. Lot easier to bring stuff in as well as move
around.

Then again, you can't always plan when you do it.

Went up in the attic once with the AC guy, in the south, 96 (temp&
humidity) and sunny. I thought it couldn't get worse. Then he fired up
the map torch.

The problem I have in attics in the summer is the fact that I sweat like
a thunderstorm and my sweat shorts out electrical items.

TDD

"Robert Green" wrote:

-snip-

Are basements really built outside tornado alley just to provide refuge? I
wonder if it's a throwback to the days of root cellars and once the trend
of basements got going it didn't stop - until it met areas where it was not
a good idea.

Anywhere the winters are cold cellars started as safe storage for
edibles. Then when central heat came along [even if it was just a
coal/wood burner in the basement under a grate- the cellar became heat
storage.

One of the houses I grew up in had;
1. a furnace room
2. a coal room
3. a cold storage room

Another had a 1000gallon cistern in it.
Both had parts of the house that were later additions with crawl
spaces.

Jim

On 11/6/2010 6:57 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Robert wrote:

-snip-

Are basements really built outside tornado alley just to provide refuge? I
wonder if it's a throwback to the days of root cellars and once the trend
of basements got going it didn't stop - until it met areas where it was not
a good idea.

Anywhere the winters are cold cellars started as safe storage for
edibles. Then when central heat came along [even if it was just a
coal/wood burner in the basement under a grate- the cellar became heat
storage.

One of the houses I grew up in had;
1. a furnace room
2. a coal room
3. a cold storage room

Another had a 1000gallon cistern in it.
Both had parts of the house that were later additions with crawl
spaces.

Jim

Don't over-analyze it. Assuming you don't have a high water table, and
the ground isn't full of rocks, basements are the cheapest square
footage you can add in new construction. You have to put in a foundation
system anyway. With modern digging machinery, the cost delta to dig a
little deeper, and pour a little more concrete and/or lay another 8-10
courses of block, is trivial compared to the overall cost of the new
house. Not at all like the old days when foundations were mainly
hand-dug, and the dirt had to be hauled away in wagons if you had no
place on the property to dump it.

IMHO, THAT is why basements became popular in the early part of 20th
century. The fad started in urban areas, of course, because it made it a
lot easier to hook up to city water and sewer, especially if they
happened to be deeply buried on the street in question.

Of course, all of the above assumes the builder wasn't clueless about
drainage and foundation sealing, or too cheap to put them in, figuring
he'd be long gone. I've been in 1930s basements that were bone-dry and
odorless, so they did know how to do it back then. I've also been in
1990s basements where mushrooms were growing.

--
aem sends...

On 11/6/2010 7:26 AM, aemeijers wrote:
On 11/6/2010 6:57 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Robert wrote:

-snip-

Are basements really built outside tornado alley just to provide
refuge? I
wonder if it's a throwback to the days of root cellars and once the
trend
of basements got going it didn't stop - until it met areas where it
was not
a good idea.

Anywhere the winters are cold cellars started as safe storage for
edibles. Then when central heat came along [even if it was just a
coal/wood burner in the basement under a grate- the cellar became heat
storage.

One of the houses I grew up in had;
1. a furnace room
2. a coal room
3. a cold storage room

Another had a 1000gallon cistern in it.
Both had parts of the house that were later additions with crawl
spaces.

Jim

Don't over-analyze it. Assuming you don't have a high water table, and
the ground isn't full of rocks, basements are the cheapest square
footage you can add in new construction. You have to put in a foundation
system anyway. With modern digging machinery, the cost delta to dig a
little deeper, and pour a little more concrete and/or lay another 8-10
courses of block, is trivial compared to the overall cost of the new
house. Not at all like the old days when foundations were mainly
hand-dug, and the dirt had to be hauled away in wagons if you had no
place on the property to dump it.

IMHO, THAT is why basements became popular in the early part of 20th
century. The fad started in urban areas, of course, because it made it a
lot easier to hook up to city water and sewer, especially if they
happened to be deeply buried on the street in question.

Of course, all of the above assumes the builder wasn't clueless about
drainage and foundation sealing, or too cheap to put them in, figuring
he'd be long gone. I've been in 1930s basements that were bone-dry and
odorless, so they did know how to do it back then. I've also been in
1990s basements where mushrooms were growing.


The last home my father and us boys built on the family farm, was dug
into the side of a slope. One side of the basement is at ground level.
I'm not sure if there is a specific term for that sort of construction
but it has a spectacular view of the valley below since the house is
only 100 yards from the top of the mountain. Dad wanted to build right
at the peak but Mom wouldn't allow it because when the project was begun
me and my siblings were little kids. There is a cliff at the peak
with another spectacular view and it's a very long way to the bottom.
It's a wonder any of us kids survived.

TDD

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
- On 11/5/2010 10:29 AM, Red Green wrote:
wrote in

stuff snipped

Went up in the attic once with the AC guy, in the south, 96 (temp&
humidity) and sunny. I thought it couldn't get worse. Then he fired up
the map torch.

The problem I have in attics in the summer is the fact that I sweat like
a thunderstorm and my sweat shorts out electrical items.

TDD

On trick I learned right here in AHR is to aim a garden hose on the area
you're working it. It really does cool things down even though it makes
your neighbors think you've gone loony, watering the roof.

--
Bobby G.

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote:

-snip-

Are basements really built outside tornado alley just to provide refuge?
I
wonder if it's a throwback to the days of root cellars and once the
trend
of basements got going it didn't stop - until it met areas where it was
not
a good idea.

Anywhere the winters are cold cellars started as safe storage for
edibles. Then when central heat came along [even if it was just a
coal/wood burner in the basement under a grate- the cellar became heat
storage.

One of the houses I grew up in had;
1. a furnace room
2. a coal room
3. a cold storage room

Another had a 1000gallon cistern in it.
Both had parts of the house that were later additions with crawl
spaces.

Jim

I grew up in a similar house, built in the 1880's. The coal bin eventually
got replaced by a oil tank - no more shoveling!

--
Bobby G.

On 11/6/2010 9:37 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
- On 11/5/2010 10:29 AM, Red Green wrote:
wrote in

stuff snipped

Went up in the attic once with the AC guy, in the south, 96 (temp&
humidity) and sunny. I thought it couldn't get worse. Then he fired up
the map torch.

The problem I have in attics in the summer is the fact that I sweat like
a thunderstorm and my sweat shorts out electrical items.

TDD

On trick I learned right here in AHR is to aim a garden hose on the area
you're working it. It really does cool things down even though it makes
your neighbors think you've gone loony, watering the roof.

--
Bobby G.



What actually works best is one of those ducted fans like the utilities
use to ventilate manholes.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/24j2xqw

TDD