I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.

On May 28, 10:36*am, mike wrote:
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. *

In the "triangle", though not necessarily laid out in the *one*
pattern you propose.

A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. *

An island in isolation is poor design, yes. Done right it works well.

Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. *Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

There is no reason the island has to be in "isolation, quite the
contrary. It's very effective opposite the sink. Like anything else,
it can be done right, or wrong.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.

If the kitchen is laid out poorly it's not the fault of the island.
Of course it's difficlut to wedge an island into a kitchen that is too
small.

On May 28, 11:36*am, mike wrote:
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. *A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. *Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. *Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.

Large kitchens are popular. Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. Too much open floor. That leads to the
perception that luxury kitchens have an island so people want to see
an island in a more moderate sized kitchen as a luxury "feature". So
you'd better get used to it. At least if the island doesn't have a
sink or appliance in it you can remove it without undue difficulty.

On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

On May 28, 10:17*am, "dadiOH" wrote:

Your opinion, other may not share it. *Me, for one. *Our island serves sink,
fridge, cooktop, oven and dishwasher. *Each of those - except cooktop which
is in the island - also have their own, generous counter area. *The sink has
two, both peninsulas.



I haven't seen a picture of your kitchen, but does an island really
serve the items listed very well if you have to walk over to it rather
than just pivot?

At least your cooktop is in the island, rather than just having a
blank, isolated counter. What do you do for outlets?

In article
,
mike wrote:

On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making, etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design. Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as an
indictment of the concept.

On May 28, 10:47*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*mike wrote:
On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. *If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making, etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design. Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as an
indictment of the concept.

So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the way? If
your island is so close to sink and the dishwasher as to not require
any walking, it sounds like you have no room for people to walk by
anyone else. I assume your fridge and dishwasher are not part of your
island like your sink is.

On May 28, 11:01*am, mike wrote:
On May 28, 10:47*am, Smitty Two wrote:





In article
,

*mike wrote:
On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. *If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making, etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design. Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as an
indictment of the concept.

So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the way? *If
your island is so close to sink and the dishwasher as to not require
any walking, it sounds like you have no room for people to walk by
anyone else. *I assume your fridge and dishwasher are not part of your
island like your sink is.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

edit: "...so close to FRIDGE and the dishwasher..."

mike wrote:
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was

Not really.

inefficient from the very beginning. Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.

Hmmm,
Only if the kitchen is too small. Our island has built in wine racks,
storage drawers, what not. More than enough counter top spaces along 3
walls. Island is easily movable also.You speak for yourself. We don't
have any problem with island.

Smitty Two wrote in newsrestwhich-
:

In article
,
mike wrote:

On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making, etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design. Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as an
indictment of the concept.


If you don't want a fixed island,use a rollaround table or cart,with
locking casters. Then you can position it where it is most useful for a
given task,or move it out of the way entirely.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"mike" wrote in message
...
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.


My sister in law has a kitchen island and I think it's great for them
....When food is prepared on the island and the girls are helping each other
with a meal , it's a great way to have a glass of wine, converse right
across from each other while preparing food together... Also during harvest
time shelling peas and reaping other benefits from the garden it is great
for that. Great for demonstrating the kids on how to clean a fish as they
can sit right across from you and learn..
I just built an entire second kitchen in our home these past few
months. My wife has just opened a cake decorating business and according to
the Canadian Govenrment health laws we can't sell food from our home in the
same kitchen we use daily...It had to be a seperate kitchen...... So in
building the second kitchen (cake studio) we put in an Island as it will be
a staple in decorating a wedding cake, Bday cake etc. She already has a
rotating table to put cakes on and could do it on a countertop, but they
look better on display on an island to give a better picture of what the
final product will look like... so I am very much FOR having an island....
We also had a section of our overhead cupboards removed that came out
from the wall (seperating the kitchen from dining room) so we could use the
countertop as an island and breakfast nook.... Jim

Jim wrote:
wrote in message
...
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.


My sister in law has a kitchen island and I think it's great for them
...When food is prepared on the island and the girls are helping each other
with a meal , it's a great way to have a glass of wine, converse right
across from each other while preparing food together... Also during harvest
time shelling peas and reaping other benefits from the garden it is great
for that. Great for demonstrating the kids on how to clean a fish as they
can sit right across from you and learn..
I just built an entire second kitchen in our home these past few
months. My wife has just opened a cake decorating business and according to
the Canadian Govenrment health laws we can't sell food from our home in the
same kitchen we use daily...It had to be a seperate kitchen...... So in
building the second kitchen (cake studio) we put in an Island as it will be
a staple in decorating a wedding cake, Bday cake etc. She already has a
rotating table to put cakes on and could do it on a countertop, but they
look better on display on an island to give a better picture of what the
final product will look like... so I am very much FOR having an island....
We also had a section of our overhead cupboards removed that came out
from the wall (seperating the kitchen from dining room) so we could use the
countertop as an island and breakfast nook.... Jim


Hi,
Our island can be work bench, table for pot luck supper when folks
gather, grocery bags stay there until put away. Don't have to put them
on the floor bending down. Some times we pile up news papers books we
are reading. Yes, it is really an island between two counter tops. We
have separate dining room for formal function. Nook between sun room and
kitchen for casual eating. Sounds like a sour grape who does not like
it. I guess every one is entitled toone's own opinion. Good luck with
your cake business.
Tony from Calgary in snow now.

Tony Hwang wrote:
Jim wrote:
wrote in message
...
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.


My sister in law has a kitchen island and I think it's great for them
...When food is prepared on the island and the girls are helping each
other
with a meal , it's a great way to have a glass of wine, converse right
across from each other while preparing food together... Also during
harvest
time shelling peas and reaping other benefits from the garden it is great
for that. Great for demonstrating the kids on how to clean a fish as they
can sit right across from you and learn..
I just built an entire second kitchen in our home these past few
months. My wife has just opened a cake decorating business and
according to
the Canadian Govenrment health laws we can't sell food from our home
in the
same kitchen we use daily...It had to be a seperate kitchen...... So in
building the second kitchen (cake studio) we put in an Island as it
will be
a staple in decorating a wedding cake, Bday cake etc. She already has a
rotating table to put cakes on and could do it on a countertop, but they
look better on display on an island to give a better picture of what the
final product will look like... so I am very much FOR having an
island....
We also had a section of our overhead cupboards removed that came out
from the wall (seperating the kitchen from dining room) so we could
use the
countertop as an island and breakfast nook.... Jim


Hi,
Our island can be work bench, table for pot luck supper when folks
gather, grocery bags stay there until put away. Don't have to put them
on the floor bending down. Some times we pile up news papers books we
are reading. Yes, it is really an island between two counter tops. We
have separate dining room for formal function. Nook between sun room and
kitchen for casual eating. Sounds like a sour grape who does not like
it. I guess every one is entitled toone's own opinion. Good luck with
your cake business.
Tony from Calgary in snow now.
Hi,
And now, who is attacking walk thru pantry? Is it design flaw too?
My god, my house is full of design flaw!

In article
,
mike wrote:

On May 28, 10:47*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*mike wrote:
On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. *If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making, etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design. Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as an
indictment of the concept.

So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the way? If
your island is so close to fridge and the dishwasher as to not require
any walking, it sounds like you have no room for people to walk by
anyone else. I assume your fridge and dishwasher are not part of your
island like your sink is.


Maybe I'll post a floorplan sometime. But anyway, there is a walkway
between the island and the wall where the fridge is. You stand there to
get stuff out of the fridge or the pantry closet next to the fridge. You
generally stand on the other side of the island to use the island, so as
not to block the walkway and also to be able to use the island sink, and
access cupboards on the other side of the kitchen. On that side of the
island, there is plenty of room for someone to walk by you, or
simultaneously use the counter on that wall.

The only thing I use the island duplex outlet for is juicing, or
sometimes making a second type of coffee. They're conveniently located
on the back face. Not sure how cords could be in the way of anything.

The island is completely unobtrusive, and completely useful. But, like I
said, apparently you've seen some that weren't.

"mike" wrote
Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning.

No. There are many factors in kitchen design and use. No one design is
best for everyone for every job to be done so you cannot make
generalizations. We do not have an island, don't have the room for one, but
often use the kitchen table for the uses an island would serve.


Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

True to a point but my last kitchen had 24' of counter top. That would make
one hell of a long counter following your design criteria and a long way to
the sink, not to mention inefficient.

My kitchen is likely to have three or four operations going at the same
time, all needing a work area. The stove may have a pot or two cooking and
some space is needed to hold seasoning, utensils used during the process.
At the same time, bread may be rising and kneaded. In another spot, I may
be grinding meat for sausage. I'll need three large stainless steel bowls
to separate and mix the seasonings for three different types. Grinder gets
put away, now the stuffer comes out and space is needed to make the links

While this is going on, a cake may be mixed too. Items are coming out of
the fridge while others are going in the fridge. Some will be transported
to the freezer or second fridge. It can be a very busy place.

Plenty of people are content to have morning coffee and later heat up a can
of Chef Boy-ar-dee for dinner. They probably don't need an island.

A friend had a very large kitchen with a table in the center. Each corner
had a door; outside, dinging room, to the basements, to the powder room.
One wall had the refrigerator and range with counter, the opposing wall had
the sink and lots of counter space. It was a horrendous design that looked
spacious, but was terrible to work in with that layout. Moving the table to
one side and putting an island would have saved miles of walking.

On Sat, 29 May 2010 00:03:56 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"mike" wrote
Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning.

No. There are many factors in kitchen design and use. No one design is
best for everyone for every job to be done so you cannot make
generalizations. We do not have an island, don't have the room for one, but
often use the kitchen table for the uses an island would serve.


Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

True to a point but my last kitchen had 24' of counter top. That would make
one hell of a long counter following your design criteria and a long way to
the sink, not to mention inefficient.

My kitchen is likely to have three or four operations going at the same
time, all needing a work area. The stove may have a pot or two cooking and

My kitchen is empty about 23 hrs and 33 min a day. TV dinners take 9
min in the microwave.

It was much busier when I was drinking beer.

some space is needed to hold seasoning, utensils used during the process.
At the same time, bread may be rising and kneaded. In another spot, I may
be grinding meat for sausage. I'll need three large stainless steel bowls
to separate and mix the seasonings for three different types. Grinder gets
put away, now the stuffer comes out and space is needed to make the links

While this is going on, a cake may be mixed too. Items are coming out of
the fridge while others are going in the fridge. Some will be transported
to the freezer or second fridge. It can be a very busy place.

Plenty of people are content to have morning coffee and later heat up a can
of Chef Boy-ar-dee for dinner. They probably don't need an island.

A friend had a very large kitchen with a table in the center. Each corner
had a door; outside, dinging room, to the basements, to the powder room.
One wall had the refrigerator and range with counter, the opposing wall had
the sink and lots of counter space. It was a horrendous design that looked
spacious, but was terrible to work in with that layout. Moving the table to
one side and putting an island would have saved miles of walking.

"mike" wrote in message
...
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. Efficient planning of countertop
space would expand on the necessary basic service areas, rather than
place the extra space in isolation. Ideally, the biggest countertop
space should be contiguous with the sink for easy clean-up.

So, no I don't think that people come to hate kitchen islands just
because they are put in kitchens that are too small, or just because
they obstruct foot traffic.


I've yet to see an HGTV kitchen that was much more than an ostentatious
display of granite. I don't think anyone has really cooked anything in
those showoff kitchens.

But keep in mind that square feet of walking space in a kitchen is generally
wasted space. In a busy kitchen, you sort of don't want clear paths
everywhere, because that generally means that surfaces for stuff are too far
apart, or just not enough table surface area.

Jim Yanik's solution of a moveable island is what I have, for now, and works
well. Don't even need locking wheels, if it's heftier than a cart.

Carts/islands that can slide under countertops give big bang for the buck,
as well. You can position stuff/work surfaces where you need them, and then
shove things away. These carts can have shelves, as well (costco has/had
them, about $70, nice big wheels, locking).

An island can be made with a dry sink, or if you feel creative, quick
connects for water. Mebbe even a car battery with an inverter??
--
EA

"mike" wrote in message
...
On May 28, 10:47 am, Smitty Two
wrote:
In article
,

mike wrote:
On May 28, 9:48 am, jamesgangnc
wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. Once you reach a certain size
they look
strange without an island. Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse
to throw
in a island. If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to
be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to
always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put
electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying
that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front
of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the
fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own
sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making,
etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen
simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design.
Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as
an
indictment of the concept.

So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the
way? If
your island is so close to sink and the dishwasher as to not
require
any walking, it sounds like you have no room for people to walk
by
anyone else. I assume your fridge and dishwasher are not part
of your
island like your sink is.


The home we're buying has an island and we love it. The island
houses the cooktop, along with a motorized, vertical air deflector
and fan to extract fumes. When not in use, the hood retracts into
the island behind the cooktop. This particular island is large
and is where food from the refrigerator would be placed. The
person merely swivels and there is the island top, rather than
having to step around the open refrigerator or freezer door.

One last thing that's particularly cool is that the far side of
the island houses a SECOND sink, termed a vegetable sink. It's
for preparing food and includes a second disposal. There are too
many times when we've been forced to stand shoulder to shoulder
preparing food by the sink, so that we can dispose of waste or
rinse things. This gives us a second spot or location to do that.

When you think about it, the second "vegetable" sink really makes
sense and the additional cost isn't that much. I'd guess that
plumbing for an island sink in new construction would be under
$500 in most instances, then add $200 for a sink, $75 for a tall
faucet and $150 for a disposal and you're well under $1k.

Nonny
--
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

In article ,
keith wrote:
On May 28, 10:36*am, mike wrote:
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. *

In the "triangle", though not necessarily laid out in the *one*
pattern you propose.

A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. *

An island in isolation is poor design, yes. Done right it works well.


As long as you like twisting 180 all the time, instead of just
reaching left or right, or stepping to the side.

David

In article ,
Tony Hwang wrote:
....
Island is easily movable also.

How does THAT work?

What with plumbing, electrical, etc?

David

"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tony Hwang wrote:
...
Island is easily movable also.

How does THAT work?

What with plumbing, electrical, etc?

David




Not every island has plumbing and electrical. They are just cabinets with
countertop and casters to make them portable.

"David Combs" wrote

An island in isolation is poor design, yes. Done right it works well.


As long as you like twisting 180 all the time, instead of just
reaching left or right, or stepping to the side.

You are being shortsighted in your vision of kitchens. Depending on what
you need and what the layout is, a turn around 180 degrees can be preferable
to stepping six steps to the side. There are millions of scenarios with
different recipes, utensils, appliances and numbers of steps that can show
one or the other is preferable. One person cooking or two? Using the
range or the oven or both? Prepping hot or cold? Making pasta from
scratch while your partner is baking a cake or frying eggs makes a
difference in what works best.

Not everyone works as you do, nor should they.

On Jun 24, 8:07*pm, (David Combs) wrote:
In article ,



keith wrote:
On May 28, 10:36*am, mike wrote:
I didn't want to hijack another thread for this so:

Counters should be next to your fridge (to get stuff out), next to the
range, and on both sides of the sink. *

In the "triangle", though not necessarily laid out in the *one*
pattern you propose.

A countertop on an island in
isolation is an indication that the design of the kitchen was
inefficient from the very beginning. *

An island in isolation is poor design, yes. *Done right it works well.

As long as you like twisting 180 all the time, instead of just
reaching left or right, or stepping to the side.

Clueless.

On May 28, 2:01*pm, mike wrote:
On May 28, 10:47*am, Smitty Two wrote:





In article
,

*mike wrote:
On May 28, 9:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

Large kitchens are popular. *Once you reach a certain size they look
strange without an island. *Too much open floor.

That's beginning to sound like a design flaw, not an excuse to throw
in a island. *If your kitchen is too much like a gymnasium to be used
efficiently, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that islands seem to always
have problems with finding even half-way good places to put electrical
outlets.

Sheesh. You only get so much wall space. Next you'll be saying that
putting a coffee table in the middle of the room, out in front of the
sofa is lame. Our island is *immediately* accessible from the fridge,
dishwasher, etc. It has its own electrical outlets and its own sink.
It's a perfect staging area for sandwich prep, salad making, etc.
without being in the way of others using the kitchen simultaneously.

Sorry, but this isn't a fad. It's just intelligent design. Maybe you've
seen poorly implemented islands, but that hardly qualifies as an
indictment of the concept.

So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the way? *If
your island is so close to sink and the dishwasher as to not require
any walking, it sounds like you have no room for people to walk by
anyone else. *I assume your fridge and dishwasher are not part of your
island like your sink is.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the
way?"

I don't have an island, but I have a workshop with a workbench.

There is a series of receptacles evenly spaced along the frame of the
workbench, a few inches below the overhang of the workbench top. The
receptacles face out into the shop.

When tools are plugged into these receptacles the cords hang straight
down, out of the way, instead of running all across the workbench.
Since there is an overhang, the cords are not any type of tripping
hazard.

If I ever have a kitchen large enough to have an island, I would
design it so the receptacles were installed in a similar fashion.

On 06/25/10 12:57 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the
way?"

I don't have an island, but I have a workshop with a workbench.

There is a series of receptacles evenly spaced along the frame of the
workbench, a few inches below the overhang of the workbench top. The
receptacles face out into the shop.

When tools are plugged into these receptacles the cords hang straight
down, out of the way, instead of running all across the workbench.
Since there is an overhang, the cords are not any type of tripping
hazard.

If I ever have a kitchen large enough to have an island, I would
design it so the receptacles were installed in a similar fashion.

I have a UK-published book on workshops (a few decades old now) that
shows track (as in "track lighting") into which not only lights but also
suspended power outlets could be installed. If it was safe enough for
240-volt supplies, one would think that something similar could be
marketed for 120-volt systems -- although the wiring would have to be
heavier because of the increased current.

Perce

On Jun 25, 2:17*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 06/25/10 12:57 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"So are your outlets under the counter so the cords get in the
way?"
I don't have an island, but I have a workshop with a workbench.

There is a series of receptacles evenly spaced along the frame of the
workbench, a few inches below the overhang of the workbench top. The
receptacles face out into the shop.

When tools are plugged into these receptacles the cords hang straight
down, out of the way, instead of running all across the workbench.
Since there is an overhang, the cords are not any type of tripping
hazard.

If I ever have a kitchen large enough to have an island, I would
design it so the receptacles were installed in a similar fashion.

I have a UK-published book on workshops (a few decades old now) that
shows track (as in "track lighting") into which not only lights but also
suspended power outlets could be installed. If it was safe enough for
240-volt supplies, one would think that something similar could be
marketed for 120-volt systems -- although the wiring would have to be
heavier because of the increased current.

Perce

Suspended receptacles, either short flexible cords or retractable
cords hung from the ceiling are common place in many workshops.

http://s7.sears.com/is/image/Sears/03483928000-1

I don't need them in my shop, but I do have some receptacles mounted
on the floor joists in the main part of the basement that we use for
ironing, vacuuming, etc.

The only issue I see with the "track" solution you mentioned is that
shop outlets should always be on a different circuit than the lights.
The last thing you want is a power tool plunging you into darkness
when it trips the breaker.

If you have lights and receptacles in the same track, but on different
circuits, I'm pretty sure code would require a ganged breaker, which
would pretty much defeat the purpose of splitting the circuits.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 22:01:18 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


"David Combs" wrote

An island in isolation is poor design, yes. Done right it works well.


As long as you like twisting 180 all the time, instead of just
reaching left or right, or stepping to the side.

You are being shortsighted in your vision of kitchens. Depending on what
you need and what the layout is, a turn around 180 degrees can be preferable
to stepping six steps to the side. There are millions of scenarios with
different recipes, utensils, appliances and numbers of steps that can show
one or the other is preferable. One person cooking or two? Using the
range or the oven or both? Prepping hot or cold? Making pasta from
scratch while your partner is baking a cake or frying eggs makes a
difference in what works best.

Of if it's just one, multitasking. SWMBO loves our island for baking.

Not everyone works as you do, nor should they.

My bet is that he's never used an island in a kitchen that's really large
enough to fit one effectively.