aemeijers wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4bef7d01$0$23532
:

I spent about $800 on a generator, about 25 years ago. Maintenance
consists of $4 worth of synthetic oil each year. It has provided
power during many days worth of outages, including a ~72hr
continuous run. Many of these outages were in the winter in the
northeast where frozen pipes would have been a threat had I not had
the generator. Being portable, the generator has also been used on a
number of remote construction projects as well. So yes, a generator
is a very inexpensive and reasonable investment.
That's relative. Until a month or so ago, we never had more than a
few hours of power outage at a time. For that an expense of $1500
today plus the maintenance and risk of storing gasoline etc is NOT
worth it.
To me grin.
If you don't want to store gasoline, siphon it out of your car when you need it.

I'm always amazed by the folks who think storing a 5gal can of gas out
back is some huge risk, and then park a car or two with 15-20gal of gas
each in their garage. Get a grip folks, storing a can of gas is not a
big risk.

Not a BIG risk, no, but gas cans don't have vapor recovery canisters to
catch any fumes outgassing from the tank on a hot day when the garage
gets close to 100 degrees inside.

Have you looked at any new gas cans in the last decade or so? They are
sealed / unvented, and don't outgas.

Not to mention, gas cans are a lot
more prone to getting leaks, or getting knocked over by short people,
sometimes with less-than-tight lids.

Any gas cans in the last decade or so are fully sealed and aren't likely
to leak.

For people without backyard sheds
to keep the gas can in (along with the mower), I recommend they build a
little 3-sided box with a roof, or something, to keep the rain off the
can and the mower. IIRC, at one house my mother had, we used stacks of
concrete block, a few pavers for for a floor, and a hunk of corrugated
roofing that was laying around. Think farmer's equipment shed, just real
small. And if they want pretty, Rubbermaid has a nice line of trash can
enclosures that work well for the task.

Yes, I keep my fuel cans (gas and diesel) along with spare LP tanks in a
little shelter with a tarp (silver side out to reflect sun) covering the
open side.

" wrote:

On Sun, 16 May 2010 22:26:16 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:


Bob F wrote:

Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4bef7d01$0$23532
:

I spent about $800 on a generator, about 25 years ago. Maintenance
consists of $4 worth of synthetic oil each year. It has provided
power during many days worth of outages, including a ~72hr
continuous run. Many of these outages were in the winter in the
northeast where frozen pipes would have been a threat had I not had
the generator. Being portable, the generator has also been used on a
number of remote construction projects as well. So yes, a generator
is a very inexpensive and reasonable investment.

That's relative. Until a month or so ago, we never had more than a
few hours of power outage at a time. For that an expense of $1500
today plus the maintenance and risk of storing gasoline etc is NOT
worth it.
To me grin.

If you don't want to store gasoline, siphon it out of your car when you need it.

I'm always amazed by the folks who think storing a 5gal can of gas out
back is some huge risk, and then park a car or two with 15-20gal of gas
each in their garage. Get a grip folks, storing a can of gas is not a
big risk.

Five gallons isn't going to get you vary far into a three-day outage.

No, but I store more than 5 gal, and I can also siphon from one of my
trucks (34 gal) if needed. Also on that 72 hr outage I had, the power
was on ~2 miles away so I could readily get more gas if needed.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at all about
them.

I know more about them than you apparently.


nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.


(my LP cooktop is about all I can
tolerate and I have an LP detector in the kitchen). I have however done
an extensive analysis of a years worth of utility bills from two
comparable homes, one with gas appliances and one with electric and
found that the much hyped "savings" simply didn't exist.

Uh-huh. Right.

When you build the spreadsheet covering a full year of data for each
house and take all costs into account, the truth doesn't match the hype.

Far too many people fail to do the analysis, and fall for the hype when
they replace a 30 year old electric or oil heating system with a new gas
one and suddenly see a huge savings. Of course you'll see a huge savings
with 30 year newer equipment, and you'd see that same huge savings with
a 30 year newer electric or oil system as well.

I recall Ed P. who posts here replaced his old oil system with a new
state of the art oil system a year or two ago and did the analysis
before and monitoring after and reported something like a 60% savings
new vs. old.

" wrote:

On Sun, 16 May 2010 19:15:39 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:


" wrote:

On Sun, 16 May 2010 09:31:57 -0400, "h" wrote:


I might believe you if you mean by area, but not if you mean by
population. I'm not aware of any densely-populated areas (at least in the
eastern half of US) that do not have NG available in the street. I'm in a
semi-rural area several miles from city limits, no water or sewer, but
every house has a gas meter. At least in this part of country, people
only have to use bottle gas if they live WAY out in the boonies, where
there were not enough houses per mile to make running the gas line
profitable.

--
aem sends...

We don't have NG here in upstate NY, about 20 minutes from Albany, 5 minutes
outside of town. I'm in the boonies, but certainly not WAY out. They sent
out a survey (supposedly 25,000 copies) about 10 years ago and they said
only 5 people (myself included) wanted NG. They didn't say how many bothered
to return the survey, however.

About ten years ago Vermont Gas went around and asked how many on our street
(maybe 20 houses) wanted gas. As it worked out, the only money out of my
pocket was $50 to have a clean-out installed in the chimney (should have been
there) and $12/mo for the burner rental. I hate oil heat, so sure! The gas
company paid for all installation costs, and even came back that spring and
re-seeded the lawn. Only one family on the street refused.

I love oil heat, or at least I did when I was in the northeast. No
reliance on any outside utility during nasty storms, 300 gal of heat and
generator fuel on site and ready at all times. That works out to the
ability to operate for at least two full weeks (more if the tank is near
full at the start) without any issues during one of the northeast's
killer ice storms.

You still need electricity to run the furnace. Gas isn't any more of a
problem.

You missed the "heat and generator fuel". I also have a diesel
generator. #2 heating oil and #2 diesel are the same thing, the only
difference being the red dye and lack of transportation fuel taxes. It
is 100% legal to run a generator off the untaxed fuel. Yes, the current
heating oil is not ULSD, but that doesn't matter for an older diesel
generator.


I absolutely *hated* it. I had all sorts of reliability issues in one house
(out of heat for three days, once, with all the niceties like frozen pipes).
The other wasn't perfect, but better. It stinks, too.

If you were without heat, you should have been draining the pipes. Not
draining the pipes when you know they are likely to freeze is just lazy
since draining them is not much work.


Granted nat gas service doesn't have an outage very often, but it does
have outages, where oil never has outages. Nat gas also blows up at
least one home a month, while oil has never blown up a home.

You've been reading the funny papers again. Try spilling a tank of oil and
get back to me.

I've been reading the reports of residential gas explosions that show up
pretty much monthly. Do a search on any news site or even google and
you'll find a ton of them. As for oil leaks, it's called secondary
containment, it is not a big deal, and again it wont blow up your house
and kill you.

Pete C. wrote:
" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 18:57:59 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 00:01:32 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4beed29a$0$26646
:

A generator solves that problem along with the defrosting freezer and
stumbling around in the dark problems.
But, but, you need tospend money to buy a generator and whatever
switching is required so as not to kill the electric company's
linemen.
It was the linemen who installed the infrastructure that fails for two weeks
when a larger than average bird roosts on the wire. Who cares if they die?
Perhaps. But the fact is that there has never been a single documented
case of a utility lineman being killed by an improperly connected
generator. In every single lineman fatality related to a generator, the
cause of the death has been the lineman not following procedures which
specify that every line must be tested and grounded before working on
it.
You've just defined the cause differently. No one dies from jumping out of
tall buildings, either, but dead is still dead.
Nope, I didn't define the cause of death differently, I defined it
accurately. Cause of death - "Electrocution due to failure to test and
ground the conductor before handling it" - that's it, period. It makes
no difference the source of the electricity.
You're either a liar or simply stupid.

Nope, but people who think these poor linemen were killed by some
careless person with a generator are irrational and emotional.

The procedures for working on lines in the field state that *every* line
must be tested and grounded before working on it without full protective
equipment. If that procedure is followed, it is not possible to be
electrocuted regardless of whether a power co generator is online or a
home generator is online.

Every single lineman fatality related to a home generator is the result
of their own carelessness in not following procedures.

Having worked as an electrician and having installed and maintained
high voltage equipment I can only tell you to treat electrical power
with respect. Treat it like a rattle snake and don't assume it's dead.
I work on everything as though it were hot, I've been zapped a number
of times and I've had tools vaporized but I've been lucky to not have
been seriously injured. Don't trust unlocked safety switches, put your
own lockout padlock on any dangerous higher voltage system you're
working on. If it can't be locked, disconnect the wires, tape them up
and leave a "I'll stomp you until you quit twitching!" note on the
panel. Years ago, I heard of an electrician working on one of the
industrial sites in my area who was working on the connections for a
4160 transformer, that's 4,160 volts primary. He finished hooking up
the high voltage side and when he leaned back, he heard a crackling
sound and his hair stood up. There was a dumbass walking down a line
of safety switches on a wall turning each one on/off and looking around.
The electrician climbed down, walked up to said dumbass and beat him
half to death. No one tried to stop him and no one would think about
testifying against him. A foreman called an ambulance to pickup the
dumbass saying he had been injured in a fall, dumbass never came back.

TDD

In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com, "Pete C."
wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at all about
them.

I know more about them than you apparently.


nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.

Nobody ever got electrocuted by a gas line, either. You're an idiot.

plonk

Pete C. wrote:


I've been reading the reports of residential gas explosions that show
up pretty much monthly. Do a search on any news site or even google
and you'll find a ton of them. As for oil leaks, it's called secondary
containment, it is not a big deal, and again it wont blow up your
house and kill you.

Do you drive a car, or ride in them? Your chance of injury there is WAY higher.
This fear is just unrealistic.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com,
"Pete C."
wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at
all about them.

I know more about them than you apparently.


nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.

Nobody ever got electrocuted by a gas line, either. You're an idiot.

Good point. I'm sure the fatalities from electricity are way higher than from
gas.
Probably safer to remove all electric devices and wiring.

In article , "Bob F" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com,
"Pete C."
wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at
all about them.

I know more about them than you apparently.


nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.

Nobody ever got electrocuted by a gas line, either. You're an idiot.

Good point. I'm sure the fatalities from electricity are way higher than from gas.

"During a typical year, home electrical problems account for 67,800 fires, 485
deaths, and $868 million in property losses. Home electrical wiring causes
twice as many fires as electrical appliances."
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/citizens/all...lectrical.shtm


Probably safer to remove all electric devices and wiring.

On May 17, 9:52�am, "Pete C." wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at all about
them.

I know more about them than you apparently.



nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.



�(my LP cooktop is about all I can
tolerate and I have an LP detector in the kitchen). I have however done
an extensive analysis of a years worth of utility bills from two
comparable homes, one with gas appliances and one with electric and
found that the much hyped "savings" simply didn't exist.

Uh-huh. Right.

When you build the spreadsheet covering a full year of data for each
house and take all costs into account, the truth doesn't match the hype.

Far too many people fail to do the analysis, and fall for the hype when
they replace a 30 year old electric or oil heating system with a new gas
one and suddenly see a huge savings. Of course you'll see a huge savings
with 30 year newer equipment, and you'd see that same huge savings with
a 30 year newer electric or oil system as well.

I recall Ed P. who posts here replaced his old oil system with a new
state of the art oil system a year or two ago and did the analysis
before and monitoring after and reported something like a 60% savings
new vs. old.

Well since electric heat was always near 100% efficent a new electric
resistance furnace wouldnt likely save you much money.

Thats going electric resistance to electric resistance.....

electric resistance to ANYTHING else will likely save you money!

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 18:57:59 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 00:01:32 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4beed29a$0$26646
:

A generator solves that problem along with the defrosting freezer and
stumbling around in the dark problems.
But, but, you need tospend money to buy a generator and whatever
switching is required so as not to kill the electric company's
linemen.
It was the linemen who installed the infrastructure that fails for two weeks
when a larger than average bird roosts on the wire. Who cares if they die?
Perhaps. But the fact is that there has never been a single documented
case of a utility lineman being killed by an improperly connected
generator. In every single lineman fatality related to a generator, the
cause of the death has been the lineman not following procedures which
specify that every line must be tested and grounded before working on
it.
You've just defined the cause differently. No one dies from jumping out of
tall buildings, either, but dead is still dead.
Nope, I didn't define the cause of death differently, I defined it
accurately. Cause of death - "Electrocution due to failure to test and
ground the conductor before handling it" - that's it, period. It makes
no difference the source of the electricity.
You're either a liar or simply stupid.

Nope, but people who think these poor linemen were killed by some
careless person with a generator are irrational and emotional.

The procedures for working on lines in the field state that *every* line
must be tested and grounded before working on it without full protective
equipment. If that procedure is followed, it is not possible to be
electrocuted regardless of whether a power co generator is online or a
home generator is online.

Every single lineman fatality related to a home generator is the result
of their own carelessness in not following procedures.

Having worked as an electrician and having installed and maintained
high voltage equipment I can only tell you to treat electrical power
with respect. Treat it like a rattle snake and don't assume it's dead.
I work on everything as though it were hot, I've been zapped a number
of times and I've had tools vaporized but I've been lucky to not have
been seriously injured. Don't trust unlocked safety switches, put your
own lockout padlock on any dangerous higher voltage system you're
working on. If it can't be locked, disconnect the wires, tape them up
and leave a "I'll stomp you until you quit twitching!" note on the
panel.

Yes, and the reason for grounding every conductor after testing is to
ensure that it *will not go live* while you are working on it, even if
another crew working down the road tries to power it up, or someone with
an improperly connected home generator tries to power it up.

Years ago, I heard of an electrician working on one of the
industrial sites in my area who was working on the connections for a
4160 transformer, that's 4,160 volts primary. He finished hooking up
the high voltage side and when he leaned back, he heard a crackling
sound and his hair stood up. There was a dumbass walking down a line
of safety switches on a wall turning each one on/off and looking around.
The electrician climbed down, walked up to said dumbass and beat him
half to death. No one tried to stop him and no one would think about
testifying against him. A foreman called an ambulance to pickup the
dumbass saying he had been injured in a fall, dumbass never came back.

Good story, presumably from the days before lock-out tag-out. When I
pulled my meter to replace my main panel, I did the full lock-out
tag-out, even though I live alone in a single family house. You have to
presume that some idiot will come by and try to fry you, even if the
probability is extremely low.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com, "Pete C."
wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at all about
them.

I know more about them than you apparently.


nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.

Nobody ever got electrocuted by a gas line, either.

Actually, they have. Gas lines have been know to go live when there are
grounding failures and electrocute people, the same as has happened with
water lines.

You're an idiot.

No, I recognize the very real hazard. Do a search yourself and see how
common residential gas explosions are.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Bob F" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article .com,
"Pete C."
wrote:

I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,

That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at
all about them.

I know more about them than you apparently.


nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard

You mean "due to your irrational fears"...

Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.

Nobody ever got electrocuted by a gas line, either. You're an idiot.

Good point. I'm sure the fatalities from electricity are way higher than from gas.

"During a typical year, home electrical problems account for 67,800 fires, 485
deaths, and $868 million in property losses. Home electrical wiring causes
twice as many fires as electrical appliances."
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/citizens/all...lectrical.shtm

So how about posting the matching figures for explosions, fires and CO
poisoning from residential gas service.

Bob F wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


I've been reading the reports of residential gas explosions that show
up pretty much monthly. Do a search on any news site or even google
and you'll find a ton of them. As for oil leaks, it's called secondary
containment, it is not a big deal, and again it wont blow up your
house and kill you.

Do you drive a car, or ride in them? Your chance of injury there is WAY higher.

Yes, I do drive / ride in vehicles, as there is not a viable alternative
as there is with residential nat. gas. I also always wear a seat belt.
At home, for the LP cooktop of my range, I have a gas detector nearby. I
find it rather sad that gas detectors are standard equipment in all RVs,
yet few people have them at home.

This fear is just unrealistic.

It is very realistic, just search the news reports of all the
residential gas explosions. If you have gas service at home you should
at the very least have a gas detector in your home. Ideally the gas
detector should be linked to a shutoff valve so it can stop a leak even
if you are not home. RV gas detectors are available with shutoff valves
now.

On May 16, 1:36*am, "Pete C." wrote:

One advantage of the smooth top is that you can slide a pan "off the
burner" to the side without it tipping or spilling and you can position
it anywhere on the cooktop.

My gas stovetop is covered with grates. I can slide a pan anywhere
on it.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On May 16, 1:36*am, "Pete C." wrote:

One advantage of the smooth top is that you can slide a pan "off the
burner" to the side without it tipping or spilling and you can position
it anywhere on the cooktop.

My gas stovetop is covered with grates. I can slide a pan anywhere
on it.

And take the grates off to clean them. . . and use any pot you like
on them. . . . and drop a pot on them without them shattering. . . and
see when the burner is on. . . .

I like my gas stove, too.

Jim

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote
Cindy Hamilton wrote:

One advantage of the smooth top is that you can slide a pan "off the
burner" to the side without it tipping or spilling and you can position
it anywhere on the cooktop.

My gas stovetop is covered with grates. I can slide a pan anywhere
on it.

And take the grates off to clean them. . . and use any pot you like
on them. . . . and drop a pot on them without them shattering. . . and
see when the burner is on. . . .
I like my gas stove, too.

I love mine! Then again, one thing I note is rarely do folks who really get
into cooking, like glass tops. It could be the favored pan that just does
the perfect crepes or anything else. I gather glasstops don't get as hot
(may be better now). My new gas range has a sliding heat scale so there is
no 'number' you are stuck with. Much more versatile.

I actually turned down a house on sight when we were buying over it's
kitchen. The kitchen was *horrible* to a real cook. They'd 'tried to
spiffy it'. Half the cabinets were clear glass faced so you saw inside
(they had cute little arty displays of pretty gourmet jars sprinkled about).
The countertop was granite (hate that stuff). The oven was one of those
cute little in-wall things and might have been 20 inches wide. The range
was glass. Badly needed pot storage was removed to provide a built in wine
cooler, a trash compactor, and a bin that they said was for potatoes?
(Dunno, flipped out and you'd never want to use it for trash as cleaning
would be a nightmare). I just took one look at the realtor and told him I
have 47 falling apart from heavy-use cook books and to move to the next one
please. The owner was a little weirded out that I had wanted to see the
kitchen first, then walked out.

hehehe case of SWMBO.

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
"Jim Elbrecht" wrote
Cindy Hamilton wrote:

One advantage of the smooth top is that you can slide a pan "off the
burner" to the side without it tipping or spilling and you can position
it anywhere on the cooktop.

My gas stovetop is covered with grates. I can slide a pan anywhere
on it.

And take the grates off to clean them. . . and use any pot you like
on them. . . . and drop a pot on them without them shattering. . . and
see when the burner is on. . . .
I like my gas stove, too.

I love mine! Then again, one thing I note is rarely do folks who really
get into cooking, like glass tops. It could be the favored pan that just
does the perfect crepes or anything else. I gather glasstops don't get as
hot (may be better now). My new gas range has a sliding heat scale so
there is no 'number' you are stuck with. Much more versatile.

I actually turned down a house on sight when we were buying over it's
kitchen. The kitchen was *horrible* to a real cook. They'd 'tried to
spiffy it'. Half the cabinets were clear glass faced so you saw inside
(they had cute little arty displays of pretty gourmet jars sprinkled
about). The countertop was granite (hate that stuff). The oven was one of
those cute little in-wall things and might have been 20 inches wide. The
range was glass. Badly needed pot storage was removed to provide a built
in wine cooler, a trash compactor, and a bin that they said was for
potatoes? (Dunno, flipped out and you'd never want to use it for trash as
cleaning would be a nightmare). I just took one look at the realtor and
told him I have 47 falling apart from heavy-use cook books and to move to
the next one please. The owner was a little weirded out that I had wanted
to see the kitchen first, then walked out.

Kitchens are ALWAYS the deal breaker, at least for me. I can live with a
lot, but not a non-foody kitchen.

Pete C. wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com, "Pete C."
wrote:
I have not lived in a home with all gas appliances,
That's quite obvious, actually, since you appear to know nothing at all about
them.
I know more about them than you apparently.

nor would I want to
due to their inherent safety hazard
You mean "due to your irrational fears"...
Tell that to all the people who have been killed in residential gas
explosions. Compare with all those who have not been killed in the
non-existant residential oil or electrical explosions.
Nobody ever got electrocuted by a gas line, either.

Actually, they have. Gas lines have been know to go live when there are
grounding failures and electrocute people, the same as has happened with
water lines.

You're an idiot.

No, I recognize the very real hazard. Do a search yourself and see how
common residential gas explosions are.

Myth Busters had an episode where they blew up a house with
more than the recommended number of bug bombs. It seems that
some people think more is better and the fumes from the foggers
will ignite when coming in contact with stove and water heater
pilot lights.

TDD

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 18:57:59 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 00:01:32 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4beed29a$0$26646
:

A generator solves that problem along with the defrosting freezer and
stumbling around in the dark problems.
But, but, you need tospend money to buy a generator and whatever
switching is required so as not to kill the electric company's
linemen.
It was the linemen who installed the infrastructure that fails for two weeks
when a larger than average bird roosts on the wire. Who cares if they die?
Perhaps. But the fact is that there has never been a single documented
case of a utility lineman being killed by an improperly connected
generator. In every single lineman fatality related to a generator, the
cause of the death has been the lineman not following procedures which
specify that every line must be tested and grounded before working on
it.
You've just defined the cause differently. No one dies from jumping out of
tall buildings, either, but dead is still dead.
Nope, I didn't define the cause of death differently, I defined it
accurately. Cause of death - "Electrocution due to failure to test and
ground the conductor before handling it" - that's it, period. It makes
no difference the source of the electricity.
You're either a liar or simply stupid.
Nope, but people who think these poor linemen were killed by some
careless person with a generator are irrational and emotional.

The procedures for working on lines in the field state that *every* line
must be tested and grounded before working on it without full protective
equipment. If that procedure is followed, it is not possible to be
electrocuted regardless of whether a power co generator is online or a
home generator is online.

Every single lineman fatality related to a home generator is the result
of their own carelessness in not following procedures.
Having worked as an electrician and having installed and maintained
high voltage equipment I can only tell you to treat electrical power
with respect. Treat it like a rattle snake and don't assume it's dead.
I work on everything as though it were hot, I've been zapped a number
of times and I've had tools vaporized but I've been lucky to not have
been seriously injured. Don't trust unlocked safety switches, put your
own lockout padlock on any dangerous higher voltage system you're
working on. If it can't be locked, disconnect the wires, tape them up
and leave a "I'll stomp you until you quit twitching!" note on the
panel.

Yes, and the reason for grounding every conductor after testing is to
ensure that it *will not go live* while you are working on it, even if
another crew working down the road tries to power it up, or someone with
an improperly connected home generator tries to power it up.

Years ago, I heard of an electrician working on one of the
industrial sites in my area who was working on the connections for a
4160 transformer, that's 4,160 volts primary. He finished hooking up
the high voltage side and when he leaned back, he heard a crackling
sound and his hair stood up. There was a dumbass walking down a line
of safety switches on a wall turning each one on/off and looking around.
The electrician climbed down, walked up to said dumbass and beat him
half to death. No one tried to stop him and no one would think about
testifying against him. A foreman called an ambulance to pickup the
dumbass saying he had been injured in a fall, dumbass never came back.

Good story, presumably from the days before lock-out tag-out. When I
pulled my meter to replace my main panel, I did the full lock-out
tag-out, even though I live alone in a single family house. You have to
presume that some idiot will come by and try to fry you, even if the
probability is extremely low.

I heard the story back in the early 70's when OSHA was in its infancy
and the old, old school solder and friction tape guys were still in
great abundance in the work force. Most of the safety practices I
incorporate into my projects would be considered time wasting sissy
stuff by those guys. The crazy old electricians in the sawmills in
central Alabama would lay #6 bare copper on the sawmill floor, cover
the wires with a deep layer of sawdust and run the 3 phase 460 volt
saw motors off of it. One brain damaged old coot would check for the
presence of 460 volt power by swiping his fingertip across the bare
wire to see if he got a tingle.

TDD

"cshenk" wrote

I actually turned down a house on sight when we were buying over it's
kitchen. The kitchen was *horrible* to a real cook. They'd 'tried to
spiffy it'. Half the cabinets were clear glass faced so you saw inside
(they had cute little arty displays of pretty gourmet jars sprinkled
about).

I don't understand the fascination with glass doors. Our cabinets are
stuffed full with "stuff" and very utilitarian. Do you want to see all my
mismatched cups and glasses? Or the one with every spice imaginable in
every type of container imaginable?


The owner was a little weirded out that I had wanted to see the kitchen
first, then walked out.

You did the right thing.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"cshenk" wrote

I actually turned down a house on sight when we were buying over it's
kitchen. The kitchen was *horrible* to a real cook. They'd 'tried to
spiffy it'. Half the cabinets were clear glass faced so you saw inside
(they had cute little arty displays of pretty gourmet jars sprinkled
about).

I don't understand the fascination with glass doors. Our cabinets are
stuffed full with "stuff" and very utilitarian. Do you want to see all my
mismatched cups and glasses? Or the one with every spice imaginable in
every type of container imaginable?


The owner was a little weirded out that I had wanted to see the kitchen
first, then walked out.

You did the right thing.

Oh, yeah.

Pete C. wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4bef7d01$0$23532
:

I spent about $800 on a generator, about 25 years ago. Maintenance
consists of $4 worth of synthetic oil each year. It has provided
power during many days worth of outages, including a ~72hr
continuous run. Many of these outages were in the winter in the
northeast where frozen pipes would have been a threat had I not had
the generator. Being portable, the generator has also been used on a
number of remote construction projects as well. So yes, a generator
is a very inexpensive and reasonable investment.
That's relative. Until a month or so ago, we never had more than a
few hours of power outage at a time. For that an expense of $1500
today plus the maintenance and risk of storing gasoline etc is NOT
worth it.
To me grin.
If you don't want to store gasoline, siphon it out of your car when you need it.
I'm always amazed by the folks who think storing a 5gal can of gas out
back is some huge risk, and then park a car or two with 15-20gal of gas
each in their garage. Get a grip folks, storing a can of gas is not a
big risk.
Not a BIG risk, no, but gas cans don't have vapor recovery canisters to
catch any fumes outgassing from the tank on a hot day when the garage
gets close to 100 degrees inside.

Have you looked at any new gas cans in the last decade or so? They are
sealed / unvented, and don't outgas.

Not to mention, gas cans are a lot
more prone to getting leaks, or getting knocked over by short people,
sometimes with less-than-tight lids.

Any gas cans in the last decade or so are fully sealed and aren't likely
to leak.

No gas can is 'fully sealed' if the lid/spout is not put on tightly and
correctly every time. Plastic cans UV weaken from sunlight, and can get
damaged by winter weather or improper handling. The now-rare(for new
ones) metal cans can rust. And yes, there are still a whole lotta old
cans with vent doohickeys on them. Wish I could find one- these modern
no-vent cans are a major pain to pour from without splashing. Careful
people would likely never have a problem, but non-careful people are the
reason we have fire departments.

--
aem sends...

Pete C. wrote:
" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 19:15:39 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 09:31:57 -0400, "h" wrote:

I might believe you if you mean by area, but not if you mean by
population. I'm not aware of any densely-populated areas (at least in the
eastern half of US) that do not have NG available in the street. I'm in a
semi-rural area several miles from city limits, no water or sewer, but
every house has a gas meter. At least in this part of country, people
only have to use bottle gas if they live WAY out in the boonies, where
there were not enough houses per mile to make running the gas line
profitable.

--
aem sends...
We don't have NG here in upstate NY, about 20 minutes from Albany, 5 minutes
outside of town. I'm in the boonies, but certainly not WAY out. They sent
out a survey (supposedly 25,000 copies) about 10 years ago and they said
only 5 people (myself included) wanted NG. They didn't say how many bothered
to return the survey, however.
About ten years ago Vermont Gas went around and asked how many on our street
(maybe 20 houses) wanted gas. As it worked out, the only money out of my
pocket was $50 to have a clean-out installed in the chimney (should have been
there) and $12/mo for the burner rental. I hate oil heat, so sure! The gas
company paid for all installation costs, and even came back that spring and
re-seeded the lawn. Only one family on the street refused.
I love oil heat, or at least I did when I was in the northeast. No
reliance on any outside utility during nasty storms, 300 gal of heat and
generator fuel on site and ready at all times. That works out to the
ability to operate for at least two full weeks (more if the tank is near
full at the start) without any issues during one of the northeast's
killer ice storms.
You still need electricity to run the furnace. Gas isn't any more of a
problem.

You missed the "heat and generator fuel". I also have a diesel
generator. #2 heating oil and #2 diesel are the same thing, the only
difference being the red dye and lack of transportation fuel taxes. It
is 100% legal to run a generator off the untaxed fuel. Yes, the current
heating oil is not ULSD, but that doesn't matter for an older diesel
generator.

I absolutely *hated* it. I had all sorts of reliability issues in one house
(out of heat for three days, once, with all the niceties like frozen pipes).
The other wasn't perfect, but better. It stinks, too.

If you were without heat, you should have been draining the pipes. Not
draining the pipes when you know they are likely to freeze is just lazy
since draining them is not much work.

Granted nat gas service doesn't have an outage very often, but it does
have outages, where oil never has outages. Nat gas also blows up at
least one home a month, while oil has never blown up a home.
You've been reading the funny papers again. Try spilling a tank of oil and
get back to me.

I've been reading the reports of residential gas explosions that show up
pretty much monthly. Do a search on any news site or even google and
you'll find a ton of them. As for oil leaks, it's called secondary
containment, it is not a big deal, and again it wont blow up your house
and kill you.

Secondary containment doesn't work for buried tanks, still dirt-common
around here. When those leak, cleanup is an expensive PITA.

--
aem sends...

Pete C. wrote:
This fear is just unrealistic.

It is very realistic, just search the news reports of all the
residential gas explosions. If you have gas service at home you should
at the very least have a gas detector in your home. Ideally the gas
detector should be linked to a shutoff valve so it can stop a leak
even if you are not home. RV gas detectors are available with shutoff
valves now.

It would be a waste of my time. I'm just not interested.

You do know that you smell natural gas way before it reaches dangerous levels?

On May 17, 10:28*pm, aemeijers wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4bef7d01$0$23532
:

I spent about $800 on a generator, about 25 years ago. Maintenance
consists of $4 worth of synthetic oil each year. It has provided
power during many days worth of outages, including a ~72hr
continuous run. Many of these outages were in the winter in the
northeast where frozen pipes would have been a threat had I not had
the generator. Being portable, the generator has also been used on a
number of remote construction projects as well. So yes, a generator
is a very inexpensive and reasonable investment.
That's relative. *Until a month or so ago, we never had more than a
few hours of power outage at a time. *For that an expense of $1500
today plus the maintenance and risk of storing gasoline etc is NOT
worth it.
To me grin.
If you don't want to store gasoline, siphon it out of your car when you need it.
I'm always amazed by the folks who think storing a 5gal can of gas out
back is some huge risk, and then park a car or two with 15-20gal of gas
each in their garage. Get a grip folks, storing a can of gas is not a
big risk.
Not a BIG risk, no, but gas cans don't have vapor recovery canisters to
catch any fumes outgassing from the tank on a hot day when the garage
gets close to 100 degrees inside.

Have you looked at any new gas cans in the last decade or so? They are
sealed / unvented, and don't outgas.

Not to mention, gas cans are a lot
more prone to getting leaks, or getting knocked over by short people,
sometimes with less-than-tight lids.

Any gas cans in the last decade or so are fully sealed and aren't likely
to leak.

No gas can is 'fully sealed' if the lid/spout is not put on tightly and
correctly every time. Plastic cans UV weaken from sunlight, and can get
damaged by winter weather or improper handling. The now-rare(for new
ones) metal cans can rust. And yes, there are still a whole lotta old
cans with vent doohickeys on them. Wish I could find one- these modern
no-vent cans are a major pain to pour from without splashing. Careful
people would likely never have a problem, but non-careful people are the
reason we have fire departments.

I just bought a gas "can" after my last move. It *cannot* be sealed
tightly, particularly with the spout attached. The only worthwhile
feature of the can is that the vent is part of the spout, which aso
acts as a cut-off when the tank if full. If the spout is stuck far
enough into the tank the vent goes under the fuel, cutting off the
vent. Sure, it's possible to spill, but you have to try. Believing
that gas cans are sealed is lunacy.

People with glass dood kitchen cabinets, its a show display for a
kitchen they probably never use.

On May 18, 9:02�am, keith wrote:
On May 17, 10:28�pm, aemeijers wrote:





Pete C. wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Han wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in news:4bef7d01$0$23532
:

I spent about $800 on a generator, about 25 years ago. Maintenance
consists of $4 worth of synthetic oil each year. It has provided
power during many days worth of outages, including a ~72hr
continuous run. Many of these outages were in the winter in the
northeast where frozen pipes would have been a threat had I not had
the generator. Being portable, the generator has also been used on a
number of remote construction projects as well. So yes, a generator
is a very inexpensive and reasonable investment.
That's relative. �Until a month or so ago, we never had more than a
few hours of power outage at a time. �For that an expense of $1500
today plus the maintenance and risk of storing gasoline etc is NOT
worth it.
To me grin.
If you don't want to store gasoline, siphon it out of your car when you need it.
I'm always amazed by the folks who think storing a 5gal can of gas out
back is some huge risk, and then park a car or two with 15-20gal of gas
each in their garage. Get a grip folks, storing a can of gas is not a
big risk.
Not a BIG risk, no, but gas cans don't have vapor recovery canisters to
catch any fumes outgassing from the tank on a hot day when the garage
gets close to 100 degrees inside.

Have you looked at any new gas cans in the last decade or so? They are
sealed / unvented, and don't outgas.

Not to mention, gas cans are a lot
more prone to getting leaks, or getting knocked over by short people,
sometimes with less-than-tight lids.

Any gas cans in the last decade or so are fully sealed and aren't likely
to leak.

No gas can is 'fully sealed' if the lid/spout is not put on tightly and
correctly every time. Plastic cans UV weaken from sunlight, and can get
damaged by winter weather or improper handling. The now-rare(for new
ones) metal cans can rust. And yes, there are still a whole lotta old
cans with vent doohickeys on them. Wish I could find one- these modern
no-vent cans are a major pain to pour from without splashing. Careful
people would likely never have a problem, but non-careful people are the
reason we have fire departments.

I just bought a gas "can" after my last move. �It *cannot* be sealed
tightly, particularly with the spout attached. �The only worthwhile
feature of the can is that the vent is part of the spout, which aso
acts as a cut-off when the tank if full. �If the spout is stuck far
enough into the tank the vent goes under the fuel, cutting off the
vent. �Sure, it's possible to spill, but you have to try. �Believing
that gas cans are sealed is lunacy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I saw some OLD style cans at a flea market and bought them all

On the way back to the vehicle people were trying to buy them back off
of me.

one guy offered me 20 bucks for a 2.5 gallon can.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I don't understand the fascination with glass doors. Our cabinets are
stuffed full with "stuff" and very utilitarian. Do you want to see
all my mismatched cups and glasses? Or the one with every spice
imaginable in every type of container imaginable?


For those of us of a certain age who can't remember where we put it...

Or the name of the person into whom we put it...

Or what to do with it once we discover where we put it...

On May 17, 5:41*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"Jim Elbrecht" wrote

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
One advantage of the smooth top is that you can slide a pan "off the
burner" to the side without it tipping or spilling and you can position
it anywhere on the cooktop.
My gas stovetop is covered with grates. *I can slide a pan anywhere
on it.
And take the grates off to clean them. . . *and use any pot you like
on them. . . . and drop a pot on them without them shattering. . . and
see when the burner is on. . . .
I like my gas stove, too.

I love mine! *Then again, one thing I note is rarely do folks who really get
into cooking, like glass tops. *It could be the favored pan that just does
the perfect crepes or anything else. *I gather glasstops don't get as hot
(may be better now). *My new gas range has a sliding heat scale so there is
no 'number' you are stuck with. *Much more versatile.

I actually turned down a house on sight when we were buying over it's
kitchen. *The kitchen was *horrible* to a real cook. *They'd 'tried to
spiffy it'. *Half the cabinets were clear glass faced so you saw inside
(they had cute little arty displays of pretty gourmet jars sprinkled about).
The countertop was granite (hate that stuff). *

Why do you hate granite? SWMBO loves the granite tops all though the
house. She particularly loves the granite topped island. I do too.
It makes great cookies. ;-)

The oven was one of those
cute little in-wall things and might have been 20 inches wide. *The range
was glass. *Badly needed pot storage was removed to provide a built in wine
cooler, a trash compactor, and a bin that they said was for potatoes?
(Dunno, flipped out and you'd never want to use it for trash as cleaning
would be a nightmare). *I just took one look at the realtor and told him I
have 47 falling apart from heavy-use cook books and to move to the next one
please. *The owner was a little weirded out that I had wanted to see the
kitchen first, then walked out.

hehehe case of SWMBO.

Yep. One of he houses I liked (*huge* unfinished basement) was vetoed
because of the kitchen. It had a stove and a sink; looked fine to
me. ;-)

On May 17, 7:57*pm, "h" wrote:

Kitchens are ALWAYS the deal breaker, at least for me. I can live with a
lot, but not a non-foody kitchen.

My kitchen is decidely non-foody, but when we bought the house we
figured we could add on. Doesn't look like that'll be possible
anymore.

Still, I've cooked meals on everything from a two-burner hot plate, to
a campfire, to a big commercial stove. My 81-square-foot kitchen may
be crowded, but it gets the job done.

Cindy Hamilton

"cshenk" wrote

Don't like it. I dont like the looks, the care, and the shatter of a
glass item if you hit it just wrong. They have other issues but those are
mine. To me, a granite countertop is a detraction of house value.

Many a crappy house has been sold because of it. Poor insulation, cheap
construction, inefficient heating system, but then . . . . "Honey, look at
the nice granite counter tops in my favorite color. Can we buy it?"

On May 18, 5:15*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"keith" wrote

"cshenk" wrote:
I actually turned down a house on sight when we were buying over it's
kitchen.

(omitted other issues with kitchen)

The countertop was granite (hate that stuff).
Why do you hate granite? *SWMBO loves the granite tops all though the
house. *She particularly loves the granite topped island. *I do too..
It makes great cookies. *;-)

Don't like it. *I dont like the looks, the care, and the shatter of a glass
item if you hit it just wrong. *They have other issues but those are mine.
To me, a granite countertop is a detraction of house value.

There are so many types of granite this seems weird. Glass is going
to shatter if dropped on any solid surface. Different strokes, I
suppose. SWMBO wouldn't have anything else (well, maybe quartz).

hehehe case of SWMBO.
Yep. *One of he houses I liked (*huge* unfinished basement) was vetoed
because of the kitchen. *It had a stove and a sink; looked fine to
me. ;-)

Hehehe. *Hope you got a basement in the one you picked!

Nope. There was only one house with a basement that met our other
criteria ("new" and within the price range). In truth, it had some
other "issues", like a 20' retaining wall down to a creek and some
pretty nasty mowing down to it.