How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that.

How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
already?

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:35:39 -0500, "DanG" wrote:

Thanks for your good reply.

It is normal to drive the pin below grade.

Just an inch or two? So I need a good metal detector.

The pin is usually a
piece of rebar on end, so it is a fairly small target to find.
They often have a plastic cap installed on the top with the
surveyor's name on it. The pin is 2' long. I suppose someone
could move a survey pin, but it would seem extreme.

Property lines seem to bring out the extreme in some people, and some
of them are crazy already.

Once you've
found one, go find the next to verify the distances on the plot.
It is not unusual for two surveyors to have slightly different
answers.

On Mar 19, 5:06�am, mm wrote:
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. �I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? �My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that. �

How long is it? �Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. � Hey! �How do I know he didn't do that
already? �

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

Pins are usually 1" metal rods that extend below the frostline so they
won't be shoved up by freezing and thawing. It could be below grade by
a foot or so, depending on your location.

Where I live (central Ohio), the property line begins in the middle of
the road and extends towards the rear of the property. There is a 30'
easement from the middle of the road. So, you may, or may not, have a
pin on the front of your lot.

Unless you're putting up a fence, building, driveway and etc., there
isn't really a need to know where the pin is. But if you are
determined to find it, you may have difficulty finding it with a cheap
metal detector. The county courthouse should have records that state
who performed the last survey. It should be on your deed also. Call
the people who last surveyed it and see what they would charge you to
find it. It is usually at most a couple hundred dollars.

Hank

On 3/19/2010 5:06 AM, mm wrote:
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that.

If that is the case you are wasting your time.


How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
already?

You bring the surveyor back and have them confirm that the pins are
correct.


There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

If the neighbor doesn't trust you what do you hope to prove by declaring
"see, there's the corner pin"?

"mm" wrote in message
...
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that.

How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
already?

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

I have found survey pegs with a metal detector and a dowser. I have seen
two types. One is a piece of rebar with a brass top. Very easy to find
with a metal detector. One is a piece of rebar with a plastic top. Easy to
find, but doesn't give out the signal of brass. Set your metal detector/s
discriminator to a low setting. Get you some orange soccer cones, or just
rocks to make squares to search so you don't go over the same area over and
over. The brass ones really put out a signal.

When these are pounded in the ground, the rod goes first. Then the cap. If
one has been messed with, it is usually obvious, and if a brass one has been
rehammered, the marks will show. Ditto with plastic.
I've never pulled one, so don't know how long they are. The rod is usually
3/4" to 1" dia.

Let us know how it shakes out.

Steve

"Hustlin' Hank" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 5:06?am, mm wrote:
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. ?I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? ?My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that. ?

How long is it? ?Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. ? Hey! ?How do I know he didn't do that
already? ?

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

Pins are usually 1" metal rods that extend below the frostline so they
won't be shoved up by freezing and thawing. It could be below grade by
a foot or so, depending on your location.

Where I live (central Ohio), the property line begins in the middle of
the road and extends towards the rear of the property. There is a 30'
easement from the middle of the road. So, you may, or may not, have a
pin on the front of your lot.

Unless you're putting up a fence, building, driveway and etc., there
isn't really a need to know where the pin is. But if you are
determined to find it, you may have difficulty finding it with a cheap
metal detector. The county courthouse should have records that state
who performed the last survey. It should be on your deed also. Call
the people who last surveyed it and see what they would charge you to
find it. It is usually at most a couple hundred dollars.

Hank

Hank, I have had metal detectors since 1980. Brass is one of the easiest
things to find, even with a cheapo.

Steve

Just an inch or two? So I need a good metal detector.

No, if it's brass, it will give off a good signal that even a cheapo can
find. A 2' piece of rebar will also give off a good signal. Hang one of
the neodymium magnets on a string, and walk over it. You may be able to
find it that way, too. That method works for small meteorites, it would
work for a 1 inch piece of rebar.

Steve

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:06:20 -0400, mm wrote:

How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding
one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the development, so the
original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the
previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted
in pegs.

Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does
- and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give
them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of
using a tape measure...

mm wrote the following:
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that.

How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
already?

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.


It depends upon whether the surveyor put in metal markers at all.
Sometimes it may just be a piece of wood lath with a red plastic strip
tied around it.
I've had my property surveyed at least twice since I bought the property
26 years ago.
When I bought the property there only one visible marker and that was a
1" galvanized pipe imbedded in concrete on the road side of the
property. It was so old that the pipe was gone, leaving just a rusty
stub in the concrete.I later broke the stub off so I wouldn't get a flat
on my garden tractor when mowing.
I needed a new survey before I could build the house for the building
inspector to check setbacks. They used the lath.
A couple of years later, I needed a new survey to install an in-ground
pool, also to check for setbacks.
For this last survey I paid a little extra to have rebar markers set at
the corners.
I can still find 3 of the markers, but the 4th one is in a wooded area
and fallen leaves, trees, branches, and other natural debris have
covered it pretty well.
I can't use a metal detector because there is an old metal fence and a
piece of farming equipment buried just about where I figure the marker
should be. I already tried with a neighbor's detector.
It's not really important to find that one, since the woods drop down
into a small heavily wooded valley, so nothing could be built there.
Even if they could build, they would have to find the marker, not me.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Jules Richardson wrote:
....

Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does
- and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give
them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of
using a tape measure...

But does one know where to start measuring from, precisely???

--

On 3/19/2010 8:26 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:06:20 -0400, mm wrote:

How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding
one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the development, so the
original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the
previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted
in pegs.

Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does
- and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give
them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of
using a tape measure...

If you don't have a known good reference where would you place the end
of the tape measure?

On Mar 19, 10:43*am, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:25:45 -0500, dpb wrote:
Jules Richardson wrote:
...

Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does
- and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give
them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of
using a tape measure...

But does one know where to start measuring from, precisely???

I went to city hall and obtained a copy of the survey plot they had on
file. I was then able to measure from the sides and corners of my
house, which was on the plot print out to verify where my property
line was. The plot showed the distance from corners of the structure
to property lines. It was pretty simple.

I even learned that the driveway had been relocated from where it was
when the survey was done.

This may or may not work. I had a neighbor that said his house was
off in the survey when he measured to marker.
Around here, survey is needed when property changes hands but
surveyers may not even come out and if you want markers they charge
extra as survey is just checking last survey. I've been watching my
property line change back and forth with each owner. I gained about 5
feet last time which for a 300 ft property line is 1,500 sq. ft.

wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT), Frank
wrote:

On Mar 19, 10:43 am, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:25:45 -0500, dpb wrote:
Jules Richardson wrote:
...
Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does
- and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give
them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of
using a tape measure...
But does one know where to start measuring from, precisely???
I went to city hall and obtained a copy of the survey plot they had on
file. I was then able to measure from the sides and corners of my
house, which was on the plot print out to verify where my property
line was. The plot showed the distance from corners of the structure
to property lines. It was pretty simple.

I even learned that the driveway had been relocated from where it was
when the survey was done.
This may or may not work. I had a neighbor that said his house was
off in the survey when he measured to marker.

Maybe he was off! LOL

I had the plot for the houses on either side of my property, and
measuring from their houses to the line came to the same place. I'm
very confident that everyting is as it is supposed to be, and so are
the neighbors.
....

IME, that'd be pretty unusual for the plats to be very accurate compared
to as builts. Not that it's impossible, but in general the surveys
don't worry about where things are _on_ the plat but only where the
boundaries are. Much will depend on age of the survey and for whom it
was done and specifically why, of course...

--

On Mar 19, 4:06*am, mm wrote:
How big are surveyor pegs?

snip

Old surveyors pegs in our (central Illinois) area were 2' long 1"
galvanized pipe. A problem that is common in our locale is that the
early surveyors were evidently sloppy with their magnetic North
settings. When I wanted a precise location for a fence around the
first house I bought, the surveyors discovered that the east-west line
was nearly 2' off to the east. My lawyer advised that modern
technology trumps old, and that legal descriptions must be held
intact. My neighbor to the west was elated that his structures were
well placed and the neighbor to the east was rather upset at losing a
nice fruit tree that had been planted close to the old line and was
now in my yard. Fortunately we all got along.
Later, moving to a nearby town, the same errors arose, this time both
east-west and north-south locations off by about 1 1/2' from 1890 or
so surveys. One result was when a neighbor sold her house, it was
necessary for her to have the swimming pool privacy fence moved to the
newer lot line. Encroachment rules did not permit leaving it there
since formal notification and permission had been granted and
relawyering the deal would cost more than moving the fence.
Like they say in cow country, 'good fences make good neighbors', and
that applies to valid lot lines.

Joe

In article , (mm) writes:

| How big are surveyor pegs?
|
| I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
| finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
| development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
| at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
| which might have resulted in pegs.
|
| So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
| know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
| might do that.
|
| How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
| And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
| already?
|
| There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
| second.

There's another problem even if you find some pegs. Without a survey
that references them you don't really know what they mean. For example,
I have a peg that could very well be the lot corner but is actually about
six inches off (funny you should mention that number). The last time I
had a survey done they mentioned this but the scale of their drawing was
such that the displacement was invisible. (I asked for and received a
detail drawing that makes it clear.) There is another peg that you might
think was on the rear lot line but is actually a few feet off. N.B. I
don't think these pegs were errors nor has the line moved due to better
technology; they just weren't being used for the obvious purpose.

I believe it's bad form (perhaps even illegal) to remove pegs even if
they are confusing, so they tend to accumulate. I don't think a survey
becomes public record unless it is recorded. If you are lucky the caps
indicate which surveyor drove the pegs, but I don't know that they would
tell you about the related survey if somebody else paid for it. At least
if you can match the caps you might be able to figure out which pegs were
driven at the same time.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

"mm" wrote in message
...
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that.

How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
already?

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

I have seen everything from a wooden 2" x 2", rebar, 1/2" x 1/2" square bar,
to 1" pipe. Around here they are only 2 to 3 feet long. I found one old
stake that had a hand forged point on one end and the remains of threads on
the other, it was 3/4" in diameter. I have never seen a brass stake as they
are called here.

EXT wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
...
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of
finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the
development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged
at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey,
which might have resulted in pegs.

So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people
know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I
might do that.

How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools.
And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that
already?

There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a
second.

I have seen everything from a wooden 2" x 2", rebar, 1/2" x 1/2" square
bar, to 1" pipe. Around here they are only 2 to 3 feet long. I found one
old stake that had a hand forged point on one end and the remains of
threads on the other, it was 3/4" in diameter. I have never seen a brass
stake as they are called here.

I held a lot of measuring poles for my father, back in the days when you
had to use a transit rather than a laser level. I've seen all of the
above. Subdivisions when I was a kid were usually 2x2 wood stakes with a
nail in the top for the metal detector. Sometimes oiled or creosoted to
slow down rot. Lately, I see a lot of rod or pipe, with those dayglo
snap-on caps. In my junk box, I have half a dozen copper-colored 6-inch
metal stakes designed for use in pavement, with a brass head that will
become a yellow dot in the asphalt. I presume they are copper plate over
some harder metal. In Indiana, in the old days, anyone laying out a
rural subdivision had to link a base line back to the nearest permanent
bench mark, often the 'quarter section' post you would see at
intersections. Those were concrete with the brass plug. There were legal
penalties for moving or removing those. (Back in the land grant days,
sometimes people got violent about it.)

I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it. Short of a high-dollar modern
survey using multiple GPS readings, corner pegs are not decimal-3 exact
anyway. If your county still has the old-style paper plat books, leaf
through one sometime. On the summary page for each section, it lists
what the deeds add up to, versus the size of the section or quarter-section.

--
aem sends....

Joe wrote:
On Mar 19, 4:06 am, mm wrote:
How big are surveyor pegs?

snip

Old surveyors pegs in our (central Illinois) area were 2' long 1"
galvanized pipe. A problem that is common in our locale is that the
early surveyors were evidently sloppy with their magnetic North
settings. When I wanted a precise location for a fence around the
first house I bought, the surveyors discovered that the east-west line
was nearly 2' off to the east.

I used to have high regard for surveyors. I have done some CAD drafting
of old commercial and industrial buildings and had the current surveys
of them - about 5 years ago.

One building had both property long dimensions about 5 FEET to far to
the west. One of the surveyed property lines went through a loading dock.

One building had a parcel included that was not part of the property.
The same building had a physical description of the building that had an
error (not major).

Another building had a major error in the description of the building
(number of floors). (Location on the survey was OK.)

Another building had a vacated street that had been added. Using the
description in the survey there was about a 5 foot closure error when
you drafted the street (about 450 feet long).

My lawyer advised that modern
technology trumps old, and that legal descriptions must be held
intact. My neighbor to the west was elated that his structures were
well placed and the neighbor to the east was rather upset at losing a
nice fruit tree that had been planted close to the old line and was
now in my yard. Fortunately we all got along.
Later, moving to a nearby town, the same errors arose, this time both
east-west and north-south locations off by about 1 1/2' from 1890 or
so surveys. One result was when a neighbor sold her house, it was
necessary for her to have the swimming pool privacy fence moved to the
newer lot line. Encroachment rules did not permit leaving it there
since formal notification and permission had been granted and
relawyering the deal would cost more than moving the fence.
Like they say in cow country, 'good fences make good neighbors', and
that applies to valid lot lines.

If someone uses your property as their own for a period of time you can
loose it through "adverse possession". Would think you might be able to
avoid that by renting the property for $1 a year, with paperwork. Moving
the fence is a cleaner fix.

In article ,
bud-- wrote:

If someone uses your property as their own for a period of time you can
loose it through "adverse possession". Would think you might be able to
avoid that by renting the property for $1 a year, with paperwork. Moving
the fence is a cleaner fix.

That is dependent on the state. Some recognize it, some don't. FWIW

--
I get off on '57 Chevys
I get off on screamin' guitars
--Eric Clapton

bud-- wrote:

Joe wrote:

-snip-
newer lot line. Encroachment rules did not permit leaving it there
since formal notification and permission had been granted and

-snip-

If someone uses your property as their own for a period of time you can
loose it through "adverse possession".
-snip-

'Formal notification and permission' removes the 'adverse' part of
possession.

My lawyer suggested I fence across the neighbor's driveway when I
bought this property. It had been in use for 40 years across an
unusable part of my property. We had met the 80 yr old couple who
lived there & had already assured them we wouldn't mess with the
driveway.

When they died the grandson went to get a mortgage & the bank made him
get permission for the encroachment. Brilliant! I wish my
lawyer had suggested it 20 years earlier. It protects me from adverse
possession-[though I don't think I'd miss that chunk of property
anyway] and protects my neighbor if some future owner of my property
wants to be an ass.

Jim

If you don't have a known good reference where would you place the end
of the tape measure?

You take what you have and measure the various distance and, if possible,
the angles.

If they check out then the odds are that all the "corners" are correct.

If they don't then pick one corner and check its distances to the corners of
the next lot over.

In some areas the land actually shifts or erodes. State and local law and
customs would apply.

On Mar 19, 2:42*pm, Joe wrote:

A problem that is common in our locale is that the
early surveyors were evidently sloppy with their magnetic North
settings. When I wanted a precise location for a fence around the
first house I bought, the surveyors discovered that the east-west line
was nearly 2' off to the east.

Magnetic north declination is constantly shifting. To determine a
magnetic
north setting from years ago vs a magnetic north recheck of that
setting
today would require a correction factor for the shifting of the
field. IIRC,
the true north pole is about 100+ miles from the magnetic north pole.
True
north is determined by solar measurements rather than compass.

KC

The pegs at my last two properties were rebar shafts about 12" or more
long with a yellow or orange plastic cap on one end. I have found
some with a metal detector but others have eluded me. If your
property is in a densely populated neighborhood they might have
moved. By the time a small lot is driven on with dump trucks, cement
mixers and tractors the pins might be very deep, or a foot or more off
of the surveyed location.

Also remember that the pins might not be at or near the curb in a
residential area. if you have an easement (12' for example) they will
be back 12' from the curb, or a given distance from the center of the
street. Doesn't hurt to have the neighborhood planning map.

RonB

On Mar 19, 8:26*am, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:06:20 -0400, mm wrote:
How big are surveyor pegs?

I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding
one or more surveyor pegs. *I'm at the corner of the development, so the
original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the
previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted
in pegs.

Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does
- and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give
them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of
using a tape measure...

I can't find my 5 acre tape measure. I guess I'll use my 25 footer.
That shouldn’t take too long.

Now, let's see...where should I stat measuring?