I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference? If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water heater
at the toop of the stairs. Before going off to work and at bedtime I turned
off the electricity going to it. I also wrapped the tank in 3.5" of
fiberglass insulation. It made a huge difference in our electric bill but I
understand that I'm talking about a huge difference between the two tanks.
OK, be gentle. I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! TIA, Chuck.

On Feb 4, 10:01*am, "C & E" wrote:
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference? *If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water heater
at the toop of the stairs. *Before going off to work and at bedtime I turned
off the electricity going to it. *I also wrapped the tank in 3.5" of
fiberglass insulation. *It made a huge difference in our electric bill but I
understand that I'm talking about a huge difference between the two tanks..
OK, be gentle. *I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! *TIA, Chuck.

I have an electric tank in a closet at the rear of the house, it is
only accessible from the outside, so it is on its own in an unheated
part of the house. I wrapped it with 2 of the insulation kits like the
big box stores sell, & it uses very little electricity & the closet is
far from toasty on a cold day, so it isn't losing much. It does 1/2 of
the house, with a gas water heater doing the heavy lifting in the
other 1/2 where the kitchen and laundry room are located. I did
nothing to the gas heater, I'm a little cautious about wrapping gas
ones, it has the advantage of being in the middle of the house though,
but it does have the code required fresh air vent into the attic.

On Feb 4, 11:01*am, "C & E" wrote:
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference? *If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water heater
at the toop of the stairs. *Before going off to work and at bedtime I turned
off the electricity going to it. *I also wrapped the tank in 3.5" of
fiberglass insulation. *It made a huge difference in our electric bill but I
understand that I'm talking about a huge difference between the two tanks..
OK, be gentle. *I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! *TIA, Chuck.

Before I switched over to gas I connected a usage meter to my water
heater. The device measures the amount of time the heater is on and
when it comes on. I was surprised by how few times it actually came on
while I was away. It only came on twice a day when I was not using hot
water. One of these was early in the morning so if I did the same
thing you were doing I would only benefit from one cycle. I think
these used about $0.07 of electricity each time. This does not equate
to 14 cents savings if it had been off because it is still going to
have to heat up all the water once you turn it on. I did have an
insulating blanket on the water heater at the time but didnt try it
with and without it. MAybe I would have saved 3 cents a day.

Jimmie

On Feb 4, 11:05*am, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
C & E wrote:


Go tankless. They are always off unless you are using hot water.
Why store hot water?
In case the power goes out? I live in the country, and have been with
out power several times since we moved here. I like having 50 gal of
hot water and 160 gal of drinking water available when / if the power
goes out.

C & E wrote:
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical
terms can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and
make a noticeable difference? If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water
heater at the toop of the stairs. Before going off to work and at
bedtime I turned off the electricity going to it. I also wrapped the
tank in 3.5" of fiberglass insulation. It made a huge difference in our
electric bill but I understand that I'm talking about a huge difference
between the two tanks. OK, be gentle. I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! TIA, Chuck.

Keep in mind that during the winter heating season all the losses from
the water heater go toward heating your home.

On Feb 4, 12:33*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Feb 4, 11:01*am, "C & E" wrote:

I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference? *If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water heater
at the toop of the stairs. *Before going off to work and at bedtime I turned
off the electricity going to it. *I also wrapped the tank in 3.5" of
fiberglass insulation. *It made a huge difference in our electric bill but I
understand that I'm talking about a huge difference between the two tanks.
OK, be gentle. *I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! *TIA, Chuck.

Before I switched over to gas I connected a usage meter to my water
heater. The device measures the amount of time the heater is on and
when it comes on. I was surprised by how few times it actually came on
while I was away. It only came on twice a day when I was not using hot
water. One of these was early in the morning so if I did the same
thing you were doing I would only benefit from one cycle.

Exactly. Turning off the power to a water heater while you're away
during the day or at night isn't going to make a huge difference in
your energy bill. In fact, you won't even notice it in your bill.

The essentials a

1 - The heat loss is proportional to the temp difference between the
water in the tank and ambient.

2 - The heated water cools off very slowly.

3 - You don't save anything until the water cools to the point that
the water heatered would have fired up if it were not off. By then,
it's probably close to the time you're turning it back on anyway.


My ENTIRE gas bill for the water heater during warm months when that
is the only usage is typically less than $20 a month. Now, how much
of that is to cover standby loss as compared to actual hot water usage
for showers, dishwasher, washing machine, etc? Not much. And
slightly reducing an already small amount isn't going to amount to
much.


I'm also skeptical that adding insulation to a tank is going to do
much. If it could, there is a huge incentive for water heater
manufacturers to just do it themselves. They would then have a
significantly better rated product and could sell and/or charge more.
With a gas heater in particular, most of the loss is probably up the
flue, as opposed to out the sides of the tank.

I'd like to see any actual controlled studies that were done on how
much energy more insulation can really save.


I think
these used about $0.07 of electricity each time. This does not equate
to 14 cents savings if it had been off because it is still going to
have to heat up all the water once you turn it on. I did have an
insulating blanket on the water heater at the time but didnt try it
with and without it. MAybe I would have saved 3 cents a day.

Jimmie

"C & E" wrote in message
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference?

An electric water heater can be 30% of your electric bill!

To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-water on for shower, then off - soap up, water back on to rinse.
-wash dishes by hand.
-wash clothes in cold water.
-get a water heater timer, hot for morning showers, warm rest of day.
-take fewer showers. Skip a day or two on weekends.

Get a solar water heating system which "preheats" the water.

On Feb 4, 10:01*am, "C & E" wrote:
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference? *If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water heater
at the toop of the stairs. *Before going off to work and at bedtime I turned
off the electricity going to it. *I also wrapped the tank in 3.5" of
fiberglass insulation. *It made a huge difference in our electric bill but I
understand that I'm talking about a huge difference between the two tanks..
OK, be gentle. *I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! *TIA, Chuck.

Add more insulation, insulate the HW pipe with black foam slip on
insulation, some brands have a glue strip for complete seal, add
thermal unions or couplings at the water heater. Alot of heat is
wasted to the pipes. Turn down the temp of the heater.

Bill wrote:
"C & E" wrote in message
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference?
There should be a sticker on the heater that says what the energy
efficiency is. If the outside is warmer than the air, you can save
some energy...proportional to that temp difference.

An electric water heater can be 30% of your electric bill!

To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-water on for shower, then off - soap up, water back on to rinse.
-wash dishes by hand.
-wash clothes in cold water.
-get a water heater timer, hot for morning showers, warm rest of day.

when you did the math on this, what hot/cold temperatures did you use.
What's the thermal time constant of your water heater?


I never understood why people showered in the morning. You have to wash the
sheets more frequently.
Guess there are advantages for birth control, cause you're not
gettin' any if you stink.

-take fewer showers. Skip a day or two on weekends.

Get a solar water heating system which "preheats" the water.

Umpteen years ago, I did install a timer, on my electric
water heater. I'm not sure it did a lot of difference, but I
felt like I was "doing something". Electric heat is
expensive. It had two on cycles which I set for AM and
evening about bath time.

If you do sit down baths. I've taken to leaving the water in
the tub until the water is cold. Supplies some humidity to
my home, and releases the BTU which I paid for. My tub and
washing machine are near by. I've been known to feed the
washing machine with bath tub water for the wash cycle.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"C & E" wrote in message
...
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in
practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater
and make a
noticeable difference? If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to
the water heater
at the toop of the stairs. Before going off to work and at
bedtime I turned
off the electricity going to it. I also wrapped the tank in
3.5" of
fiberglass insulation. It made a huge difference in our
electric bill but I
understand that I'm talking about a huge difference between
the two tanks.
OK, be gentle. I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! TIA, Chuck.

Showers can be done in far less water than sit down baths.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bill" wrote in message
...

To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-water on for shower, then off - soap up, water back on to
rinse.
-wash dishes by hand.
-wash clothes in cold water.
-get a water heater timer, hot for morning showers, warm
rest of day.
-take fewer showers. Skip a day or two on weekends.

Get a solar water heating system which "preheats" the water.

"Van Chocstraw" wrote in message
...
Eric in North TX wrote:
On Feb 4, 11:05 am, Van
wrote:
C& E wrote:


Go tankless. They are always off unless you are using hot water.
Why store hot water?
In case the power goes out? I live in the country, and have been with
out power several times since we moved here. I like having 50 gal of
hot water and 160 gal of drinking water available when / if the power
goes out.


That's why they make generators.

It might take a big generator, maybe more than many have. The couple I
looked at needed 9 KW and up.

On Feb 4, 11:49*am, mike wrote:
Bill wrote:
"C & E" *wrote in message
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference?

There should be a sticker on the heater that says what the energy
efficiency is. *If the outside is warmer than the air, you can save
some energy...proportional to that temp difference.



An electric water heater can be 30% of your electric bill!

To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-water on for shower, then off - soap up, water back on to rinse.
-wash dishes by hand.
-wash clothes in cold water.
-get a water heater timer, hot for morning showers, warm rest of day.

when you did the math on this, what hot/cold temperatures did you use.
What's the thermal time constant of your water heater?

I never understood why people showered in the morning. *You have to wash the
sheets more frequently.
Guess there are advantages for birth control, cause you're not
gettin' any if you stink.

-take fewer showers. Skip a day or two on weekends.

Get a solar water heating system which "preheats" the water.

People who shower in the morning often need it to "wake up".

Showering after work often makes sense to wash off dirt or chemical
exposure.

cheers
Bob

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:20:19 -0800, "Bill"
wrote:



To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-wash dishes by hand.


Washing by machine with a full load uses less water than hand washing.
Proven fact many times over.

On Feb 4, 5:01*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
Eric in North TX wrote:

On Feb 4, 11:05 am, Van
wrote:
C& *E wrote:

Go tankless. They are always off unless you are using hot water.
Why store hot water?
* In case the power goes out? I live in the country, and have been with
out power several times since we moved here. I like having 50 gal of
hot water and 160 gal of drinking water available when / if the power
goes out.

That's why they make generators.

I have a small one (3500w) which will run my pressure pump, keep the
refrigerators going & run the furnace blower, & it uses about 8
gallons of fuel a day. With 160 gallons of water above ground,
I can't justify one big enough to power a 5hp pump 400 ft
underground. I guess if it happened often enough for a long enough
duration, I might invest in a diesel 10kw one.

On Feb 5, 1:15*am, Eric in North TX wrote:
On Feb 4, 5:01*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

Eric in North TX wrote:

On Feb 4, 11:05 am, Van
wrote:
C& *E wrote:

Go tankless. They are always off unless you are using hot water.
Why store hot water?
* In case the power goes out? I live in the country, and have been with
out power several times since we moved here. I like having 50 gal of
hot water and 160 gal of drinking water available when / if the power
goes out.

That's why they make generators.

I have a small one (3500w) *which will run my pressure pump, keep the
refrigerators going & run the furnace blower, & it uses about 8
gallons of fuel a day. *With 160 gallons of water above ground,
*I can't justify one big enough to power a 5hp pump 400 ft
underground. I guess if it happened often enough for a long enough
duration, I might invest in a diesel 10kw one.

Did this rather quick; we are having a snow storm/blizzard at the
moment. Up to 40 centimetres (roughly 15 inches) with high winds of
around 90+ km/hr. approx 60 mph.). Schools and many businesses closed,
which will reduce traffic.
White-outs in some areas So maybe someone would like to check these
numbers?
Viz:
40 US gallon tank. That's about 334 pounds of water at say 160 deg. F.
In a basement with ambient temp of 60 deg F.
It takes two weeks to cool down to 60 deg F. A 100 deg. drop.(See
previous post)
As a rough calculation (assuming incorrectly that temp halfway has
dropped 50 degrees.
334 x 50 x 1 = 16700 BTUs. (Heat loss over one weeks) Or 348 BTU per
hour.
So double that for heat loss when tank is on all the time maintaining
full heat. = 696 BTU per hour.
Since 3412 BTUs per kilowatt hr. 696/3412 = 0.2 k.watt/hrs per hour.
Electricity here is about 10.2 cents per k.watt/hr that's approx. 2.5
cents per hour heat loss.
That heat being lost into the house which is electrically heated
anyway!
Same thing as heat lost from incandescent lights, which, usually being
on at night when it is colder, also put 'wasted' heat into the house.

DD_BobK wrote:

On Feb 4, 11:49*am, mike wrote:

-snip-
I never understood why people showered in the morning. *
-snip-
People who shower in the morning often need it to "wake up".

Some of us old farts need a hot shower to get limber enough to reach
our feet to get socks on.g I do a 1/2 hour in the hot tub now--
but I used to do the morning shower if I needed to wear socks that
day.

Jim

Any cites on the web?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:20:19 -0800, "Bill"
wrote:



To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-wash dishes by hand.


Washing by machine with a full load uses less water than
hand washing.
Proven fact many times over.

8 galons? Wow! Most folks scale way back on their electric
use during a power cut. One hour morning and night. Are you
leaving it run all day and all night?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Eric in North TX" wrote in message
...

I have a small one (3500w) which will run my pressure pump,
keep the
refrigerators going & run the furnace blower, & it uses
about 8
gallons of fuel a day. With 160 gallons of water above
ground,
I can't justify one big enough to power a 5hp pump 400 ft
underground. I guess if it happened often enough for a long
enough
duration, I might invest in a diesel 10kw one.

On Feb 5, 7:15*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
8 galons? Wow! Most folks scale way back on their electric
use during a power cut. One hour morning and night. Are you
leaving it run all day and all night?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org

I did last time. The city (power company) had a crew fueling the
generators in our area for a 2 weeks 24 hrs a day. The lines and poles
were down on our street, & they felt obligated to keep us going. They
supplied generators to folks who lacked them. My closest neighbor got
one of those & it was sufficient to power her well which we shared
through a long double female garden hose linking the 2 properties. We
are in an odd situation where we are in the city limits, but lack city
services other than municipal electricity. There are 8 house on our
road, but it is mostly open land / farms and ranches.

C & E wrote the following:
I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical
terms can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and
make a noticeable difference? If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water
heater at the toop of the stairs. Before going off to work and at
bedtime I turned off the electricity going to it. I also wrapped the
tank in 3.5" of fiberglass insulation. It made a huge difference in
our electric bill but I understand that I'm talking about a huge
difference between the two tanks. OK, be gentle. I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! TIA, Chuck.

Put your hand on the heater case. Is the outside hot? If so, then you
need extra insulation. If it is room temperature, you don't.
I have a 4 year old, 40 gal. GE propane heater. The outside is 72 F

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Feb 5, 9:28*am, willshak wrote:
C & E wrote the following:

I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical
terms can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and
make a noticeable difference? *If so, what kind of insulation?

Many years ago, in the '70's, I installed a remote swith to the water
heater at the toop of the stairs. *Before going off to work and at
bedtime I turned off the electricity going to it. *I also wrapped the
tank in 3.5" of fiberglass insulation. *It made a huge difference in
our electric bill but I understand that I'm talking about a huge
difference between the two tanks. OK, be gentle. *I have a bad...
well, I can't think of anything that isn't bad! *TIA, Chuck.

Put your hand on the heater case. Is the outside hot? If so, then you
need extra insulation. If it is room temperature, you don't.
I have a 4 year old, 40 gal. GE propane heater. The outside is 72 F

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

the best way to save money on hot water is to turn the temperature
setting down. Turn it down to the point where you need to use almost
full hot to take a shower. Also if you have a mixing valve, close it.
Mark

I've never heard of loaner generators. Good service, there.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Eric in North TX" wrote in message
...
On Feb 5, 7:15 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
8 galons? Wow! Most folks scale way back on their electric
use during a power cut. One hour morning and night. Are
you
leaving it run all day and all night?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

I did last time. The city (power company) had a crew
fueling the
generators in our area for a 2 weeks 24 hrs a day. The lines
and poles
were down on our street, & they felt obligated to keep us
going. They
supplied generators to folks who lacked them. My closest
neighbor got
one of those & it was sufficient to power her well which we
shared
through a long double female garden hose linking the 2
properties. We
are in an odd situation where we are in the city limits, but
lack city
services other than municipal electricity. There are 8 house
on our
road, but it is mostly open land / farms and ranches.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:38:36 -0800 (PST), Mark
wrote:



the best way to save money on hot water is to turn the temperature
setting down. Turn it down to the point where you need to use almost
full hot to take a shower. Also if you have a mixing valve, close it.
Mark


Not so quick. Last week I know of a person that died from Legionellae
(he had other complications) and his girlfriend was also infected.
They suspect it was from the water heater. He was a cheap sort of
guy and did turn down the temperature. do NOT go below 130 degrees.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009...eater-safe.php

* 70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
* At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
* At 60 °C (140 °F): Legionellae die within 32 minutes
* At 55 °C (131 °F): Legionellae die within 5 to 6 hours
* Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
* 35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
* 20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Legionellae growth range
* Below 20 °C (68 °F): Legionellae can survive but are dormant

On Feb 4, 2:20*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"C & E" *wrote in message

I know that the answer in relative terms is 'yes', but in practical terms
can I wrap insulation around my three year old water heater and make a
noticeable difference?

An electric water heater can be 30% of your electric bill!

To get a drastic savings...

Use less hot water...
-water on for shower, then off - soap up, water back on to rinse.
-wash dishes by hand.
-wash clothes in cold water.
-get a water heater timer, hot for morning showers, warm rest of day.


Terry says he shut off his water heater in a 60F basement and went
away for a 2 week vacation and upon returning the water was STILL
TEPID. Clearly water just sitting in a water heater tank cools off
very slowly. So, how drastic of a savings do you really think you're
going to get by putting the water heater on a timer? You don't save
anything until the water cools off enough where it would have come on
anyway. From that point on, you do save, because the heat loss will
now be less than it would have been if the temp were higher. But
given that it cools very slowly, in practice you are going to save
very little, if anything.

Also, for many people, putting the water heater on a timer would be a
losing proposition and take a very long time to break even. For
example, if you can't do the work yourself and have to call an
electrician, it ain't gonna be cheap.

I'm going to do the experiment here with my water heater and measure
the water temp at night before shutting it off and again in the
morning. My prediction: It isn't going to drop very much at all.




-take fewer showers. Skip a day or two on weekends.

Get a solar water heating system which "preheats" the water.


I saw some DOE data a while back that showed solar heating of water in
the final analysis wasn't significantly cheaper than other simpler
choices like storage water heaters.