Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

On Jan 14, 11:27*am, "james" wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:27 am, "james" wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

it's always in the back of the sock drawer.

On Jan 14, 11:43*am, "charlie" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:27 am, "james" wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. * I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! *Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

it's always in the back of the sock drawer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OH! You mean the sock drawer that's buried under the roof?

OK, I'll just use my emergency saw to cut through the framing material
to get to the sock drawer so I can use my emergency saw to cut through
the framing to get to the sock drawer so I can use my emergency
saw...hey wait...something is amiss here.

james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of
a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a
2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

I suppose something like this would work:

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Survi.../dp/B001H9N8C0

On Jan 14, 11:27*am, "james" wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Be very careful cutting anything in a collapsed house unless you know
what you're doing. It could cause a further collapse. Someone may
need to rescue you.

james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

A cordless sawzall or chainsaw would work for cutting into a wood frame
house to find survivors. Forget the idea of sawing yourself out, since
when the house collapses on you, you'll be lucky if you can scratch your
nose, much less get to a saw and saw your way out.

james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of
a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a
2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.


Cutting into I can sort of understand. Cutting out of????????

On Jan 14, 12:02*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of
a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a
2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

I suppose something like this would work:

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Survi...berCut-Black/d...

OK, got my saw...now if I could only get this wall off of my arm I
could use it.

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't think
I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel alone,
either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs will
find you more quickly.

Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't think
I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel alone,
either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs will
find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

Mike Paulsen wrote in
:

james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

I suppose something like this would work:

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Survi...rCut-Black/dp/
B001H9N8C0




or this HF 10" flush cut pull saw,item # 94722,for $5.99. (reg.$9.99)
I've got one,it's great.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed
house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't
think I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel
alone, either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs
will find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

our Florida gators will get you AND the dog for dinner. 8-)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:54:34 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed
house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't
think I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel
alone, either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs
will find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

our Florida gators will get you AND the dog for dinner. 8-)

Not if you attack them with your hand saw.

On Jan 14, 2:18*pm, Jules
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:54:34 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in
nster.com:

Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed
house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't
think I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel
alone, either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs
will find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

our Florida gators will get you AND the dog for dinner. 8-)

Not if you attack them with your hand saw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

....assuming you can get to the sock drawer.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Jan 14, 2:18 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:54:34 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in
nster.com:

Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed
house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't
think I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel
alone, either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs
will find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

our Florida gators will get you AND the dog for dinner. 8-)

Not if you attack them with your hand saw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

....assuming you can get to the sock drawer.

Get the resue dog to sniff his way to it.....

On Jan 14, 11:40*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:27*am, "james" wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. * I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! *Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

I know people who live in "tornado alley" that have them in their
"safe room" My friend John has had two houses destroyed by tornadoes.
I think he has damned near enough tools to get out of his house as it
would take to rebuild it.

Jimmie

JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:40 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:27 am, "james" wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

I know people who live in "tornado alley" that have them in their
"safe room" My friend John has had two houses destroyed by tornadoes.
I think he has damned near enough tools to get out of his house as it
would take to rebuild it.

Jimmie

tornados are god's hint telling you to move. god knocked on his front door
twice, but no one's home evidently.

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, "james" wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.


I have numerous handsaws, not one is specifically for sawing your way
out of a collapsed house. Cutting away wood may lead to your
demise--it might be safer to stay calm and put, save your energy, and
call for help at strategic times.

james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Thus the advantage of those paper shacks they talk about.

On Jan 14, 4:19*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:40*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Jan 14, 11:27*am, "james" wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. * I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! *Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

I know people who live in "tornado alley" that have them in their
"safe room" My friend John has had two houses destroyed by tornadoes.
I think he has damned near enough tools to get out of his house as it
would take to rebuild it.

Jimmie

I don't live in "tornado alley" or in a earthquake prone area, so I
might wrong here, but don't you typically get some type of warning
before a tornado totals the place, thus giving you time to get into
your safe room?

AFAIK you don't typically get that kind of warning before an
earthquake.

james wrote the following:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Just carry a bunch of sticks of dynamite with you at all times.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of
a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a
2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

stihl chainsaw. Carry it on you.

willshak wrote:
james wrote the following:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Just carry a bunch of sticks of dynamite with you at all times.


A phaser pistol from Star Trek would do the trick.

TDD

I've lived through a couple of nasty California earthquakes... but
nothing close to the scale of collapsing buildings.

Having said that; since the 94 quake, I've kept a nice heavy 30" crow
bar at the foot end of my bed tucked between the mattresses. Even
painted it white to help it stand out in dim light conditions. Along
with it I keep a 2 'D' cell Mag Light, and religiously change the
batteries every 2 (calendar) years.

I'm sure the crow bar would come in handy to break windows, and clear
out any jagged glass remaining in the frames, and/or 'swat' through
jammed doors should the house be shaken out of plumb. Could beat through
plaster/stucco walls with it too, but it would take a few minutes.

I have another identical crow bar in the front room, tucked just out of
sight behind the sofa. Note that both it and the one in the bedroom, (if
kept dry) will require zero maintenance for many, many life times to
come.

Should the house collapse and I'm trapped? All bets are off

Just my .02¢ worth. I hope none of us ever needs such tools... but
knowing they are there, at least makes me sleep a little sounder...

Erik

Forget the saw, but have the whistle readily accessible.
"Space blankets", too.

On Jan 14, 11:27*am, "james" wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:33:09 +0000, Joe wrote:


"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Jan 14, 2:18 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:54:34 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in
nster.com:

Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed
house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't
think I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel
alone, either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs
will find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

our Florida gators will get you AND the dog for dinner. 8-)

Not if you attack them with your hand saw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

...assuming you can get to the sock drawer.

Get the resue dog to sniff his way to it.....

Except there'll be a lot of debris in the way. Maybe they make hand saws
for canine use?

On Jan 15, 1:44*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
willshak wrote:
james wrote the following:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Just carry a bunch of sticks of dynamite with you at all times.

A phaser pistol from Star Trek would do the trick.

TDD

A phaser pistol from Star Trek would do the trick.

Phasers set to "stud", of course.

On Jan 15, 2:13*am, Erik wrote:
I've lived through a couple of nasty California earthquakes... but
nothing close to the scale of collapsing buildings.

Having said that; since the 94 quake, I've kept a nice heavy 30" crow
bar at the foot end of my bed tucked between the mattresses. Even
painted it white to help it stand out in dim light conditions. Along
with it I keep a 2 'D' cell Mag Light, and religiously change the
batteries every 2 (calendar) years.

I'm sure the crow bar would come in handy to break windows, and clear
out any jagged glass remaining in the frames, and/or 'swat' through
jammed doors should the house be shaken out of plumb. Could beat through
plaster/stucco walls with it too, but it would take a few minutes.

I have another identical crow bar in the front room, tucked just out of
sight behind the sofa. Note that both it and the one in the bedroom, (if
kept dry) will require zero maintenance for many, many life times to
come.

Should the house collapse and I'm trapped? All bets are off

Just my .02¢ worth. I hope none of us ever needs such tools... but
knowing they are there, at least makes me sleep a little sounder...

Erik

"Note that both it and the one in the bedroom, (if kept dry) will
require zero maintenance for many, many life times to
come. "

Uh...like you wouldn't use a rusty crowbar to clear an exit if need
be? ;-)

"D*mn! Should have kept it dry. Now it useless!"

P.S. If the one between the mattresses gets wet, you've got other
issues to deal with.

On Jan 14, 3:19*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 14, 11:40*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Jan 14, 11:27*am, "james" wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Are you planning on carrying this saw with you at all times?

Do you really expect to be able locate and access this device *after*
your house has collapsed?

"Hold on honey! Let me run down to my workshop and grab that
"Earthquake Extraction" saw that was recommended by the fine folks
over at a.h.r. * I'll have us out in a jiffy.

D*mn! *Hey Honey? Have you seen my workshop? I can't seem to find it."

I know people who live in "tornado alley" that have them in their
"safe room" My friend John has had two houses destroyed by tornadoes.
I think he has damned near enough tools to get out of his house as it
would take to rebuild it.

Jimmie

I have read that back in the day in tornado country, when the "safe
room" was the storm cellar, it was standard practice to take the axe
down there with you in case the house landed on top of it. Some
people trapped in their attics in New Orleans probably could have used
one too. Although as someone pointed out, you don't get any warning
time with earthquakes. -- H

On Jan 14, 10:27*am, "james" wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Ohh! from the subject heading, I thought you meant a saw to get you
out when your hand is caught. -- H

willshak wrote:
james wrote the following:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Just carry a bunch of sticks of dynamite with you at all times.

A pouch of PETN in your wallet would do it.

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Jan 15, 2:13*am, Erik wrote:
I've lived through a couple of nasty California earthquakes... but
nothing close to the scale of collapsing buildings.

Having said that; since the 94 quake, I've kept a nice heavy 30" crow
bar at the foot end of my bed tucked between the mattresses. Even
painted it white to help it stand out in dim light conditions. Along
with it I keep a 2 'D' cell Mag Light, and religiously change the
batteries every 2 (calendar) years.

I'm sure the crow bar would come in handy to break windows, and clear
out any jagged glass remaining in the frames, and/or 'swat' through
jammed doors should the house be shaken out of plumb. Could beat through
plaster/stucco walls with it too, but it would take a few minutes.

I have another identical crow bar in the front room, tucked just out of
sight behind the sofa. Note that both it and the one in the bedroom, (if
kept dry) will require zero maintenance for many, many life times to
come.

Should the house collapse and I'm trapped? All bets are off

Just my .02¢ worth. I hope none of us ever needs such tools... but
knowing they are there, at least makes me sleep a little sounder...

Erik

"Note that both it and the one in the bedroom, (if kept dry) will
require zero maintenance for many, many life times to
come. "

Uh...like you wouldn't use a rusty crowbar to clear an exit if need
be? ;-)

"D*mn! Should have kept it dry. Now it useless!"

P.S. If the one between the mattresses gets wet, you've got other
issues to deal with.

What I was getting at, is that the bars are useful for a lot of things
in an emergency, 'robust', self contained and require no maintenance.
all you really need to do is remember where they are...

Erik

james wrote:
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting out
of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed house.

If earthquakes are fairly common in your area, perhaps you should consider
something more substantial than a saw...

Camping section of Walmart, about ten bucks.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"james" wrote in message
...
Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to
cutting out of a
collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to cut
through a 2x4 and
other common support beams in a wood framed house.

Metal crowbar likely to bounce around, a bit. Might not be
where you left it. I'd rather have one and have a fighting
chance. Rather than be collapsed in, and no chance.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Erik" wrote in message
...

What I was getting at, is that the bars are useful for a lot
of things
in an emergency, 'robust', self contained and require no
maintenance.
all you really need to do is remember where they are...

Erik

I'd rather have a saw, and have a chance of getting at it.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...

A cordless sawzall or chainsaw would work for cutting into a
wood frame
house to find survivors. Forget the idea of sawing yourself
out, since
when the house collapses on you, you'll be lucky if you can
scratch your
nose, much less get to a saw and saw your way out.

Or, the sewer rats, or the feral dogs.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jules" wrote
in message
news
Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the
search dogs will
find you more quickly.

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:31:37 -0600, Jules
wrote:

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs will
find you more quickly.

Actually, the dogs are trained to avoid food and dead corpses. The
training teaches them to only find live bodies. Something to do with
scents?

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:33:09 +0000, Joe wrote:


"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Jan 14, 2:18 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:54:34 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in
nster.com:

Jules wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:27:03 -0800, james wrote:

Is there a type of hand saw that's particularly suited to cutting
out of a collapsed house in an earthquake? It should be easy to
cut
through a 2x4 and other common support beams in a wood framed
house.

Those support beams may well still be supporting several tons of
crap
above my head. I'm not sure I'd fancy chopping through them. I don't
think I'd fancy trying to do a structural survey in the dark by feel
alone, either.

Carry a doggie biscuit in your pocket at all times; the search dogs
will find you more quickly.

Carry a gun in your pocket at all times; that search dog is really a
hungry coyote and you are it's intended dinner.

our Florida gators will get you AND the dog for dinner. 8-)

Not if you attack them with your hand saw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

...assuming you can get to the sock drawer.

Get the resue dog to sniff his way to it.....

Except there'll be a lot of debris in the way. Maybe they make hand saws
for canine use?


Good idea. Keep it in the sock drawer..... :-)