On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:04:40 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Dec 8, 2:42 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?
Worst case is something like:

The timing belt/chain is worn and skipped a tooth (just fixing this
could be a few hundred).
This caused the pistons to hit the valves, damaging the valves, a
spark plug, head, pistons and possibly even rods.
Broken bits of valve and/or spark plug gouged the cylinder walls.


How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

Oren wrote:
....

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

Pretty high percentage of any current production engine will be same.
Need the tolerances to meet emission and mileage requirements any more...

And you definitely don't want to break a timing belt in anything these
days--pretty much guarantees new/rebuilt time...the one-cylinder thingie
may be a "get-by" or top-end job, the other is they're all toast.

--

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:

-snip-

How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that
evaluation could require major engine disassembly which could cost so much
that no sane owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the
car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after the
plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with? Right
length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug? Seems like
some things could point to the mechanic, as unlikely as that seems based on
his track record. Or, manufacturer.

Any other thoughts on this?


If the shell is in good shape, and the miles that low, I'd price out an
light-bulb-style engine swap with a guaranteed used engine. Value of the
car is irrelevant, what matters is what it would cost to replace it with
something as reliable.

--
aem sends...

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:17:11 -0600, Jules
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:28:30 -0600, dpb wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
...
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

A plug "broken"??? How? What broke? In 50 years w/ all personal
automobiles and light trucks plus tractors and other farm equipment BD
(before diesel) I've never seen a broken plug other than breaking the
insulation or somesuch external damage.

I've seen them break due to overheating, but I don't think I've ever seen
one that's "just broken" either.

If it's outright smashed and there are no issues with the cooling system
then *something* had to have hit it...

cheers

Jules
As a mechanic I HAVE seen plugs "just break" - poor weld on the ground
electrode allows it to fall off. I've seen compression seals let go,
allowing the insulator to move in the shell, and the insulator shatter
(after making a LOT of noise for quite some time)

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
(snip)


And why am I in the middle of all this? :-) Don't ask.


No need to explain- I know lotsa one guys who have more contact and
day-to-day involvement with their ex that when they were married. And
half of them don't even have kids with the lady.

--
aem sends...

If the engine is indeed shot, one thing you may do rather than buy an
engine from a wrecking yard is to find another Subaru that has a bad
tranny, or is wrecked in such a way that the engine is not harmed. If
you are in or near a fairly large city, something may show up on
Craigslist for a lot less that a wrecking yard would get for an engine.
First, ask the mechanic what he would charge to pull the engine out and
put it in yours, and the years and models of Subaru which would have the
same engine. I see stuff like this all the time on CL, for $200-300,
often with nearly new tires or other major parts that are nearly new.
Besides the engine, keep whatever else is in good shape and you think
you may use in the future, and sell the rest for scrap metal. Larry

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:18:17 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:04:40 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Dec 8, 2:42Â*pm, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?

Worst case is something like:

The timing belt/chain is worn and skipped a tooth (just fixing this
could be a few hundred).
This caused the pistons to hit the valves, damaging the valves, a
spark plug, head, pistons and possibly even rods.
Broken bits of valve and/or spark plug gouged the cylinder walls.


How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.
It happens a LOT on engines that are "interference" engines. The
valve is opened by the cam when the piston comes up - the piston hits
the valve and bends it. If it hits often enough, ot just the right
way, the valve head can break off and bounce around in the cyl.
The valve can also crack or break the piston.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, against all advice, something
compelled "JoeSpareBedroom" , to say:

My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that
evaluation could require major engine disassembly which could cost so much
that no sane owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the
car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after the
plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with? Right
length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug? Seems like
some things could point to the mechanic, as unlikely as that seems based on
his track record. Or, manufacturer.

Any other thoughts on this?



I guess if it was my car, I'd blow out the affected cylinder with
compressed air to get any debris out, screw in the right plug,
fire it up and see what happens. Worst thing that could happen
is you'd ruin the motor further and it would need to be replaced,
and just swapping it out for a known good unit would probably
cost less than the diagnostic disassembly.

Best thing happens, it runs ok, and you get a couple more years
out of it.



--

Howdya like that... we started playing guitar to impress the chicks and wind
up talkin' fingernails with old men.

Ray Boyce - 9.27.09

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:

-snip-

How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

I knew I was in trouble the FIRST time I needed a metric wrench on a
Ford. Those were the days :-/

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:51:53 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:33:05 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

You could probably get a guaranteed used engine installed for a lot
less than a rebuild of that one. Find a junkyard that has a low
mileage wreck with rear end damage. Selling and installing the engine
is almost pure profit for them. Negotiate!

Since it is all "profit" where does the money come from for payroll,
rent or building maintenance, heat, electricity, taxes, tools,
equipment, insurance etc?

All those costs exist without doing engine installs. It's gravy for
them. The point is that the materials are pretty close to zero cost.
It's all labor from employees who are on the clock anyway, and might
otherwise have nothing to keep them busy 100% of the time.

Go visit a wrecking yard, and then get back to us with what you
discover.


And the person running such an operation might be called "former
business owner" or even "bankrupt".

I have been to wrecking yards and have never observed employees hanging
around waiting for something to do and I am sure someone paid for the
buildings, tools supplies, maintenance and all of the other stuff that
goes into operating a business and that someone also will pay for the
new tools and supplies that are purchased. Add all of that up and
apportion it and nothing in a business is "zero cost".

Feel free to remain ignorant, if that's what you prefer.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:

-snip-

How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:20:26 -0600, (Lp1331 1p1331)
wrote:

If the engine is indeed shot, one thing you may do rather than buy an
engine from a wrecking yard is to find another Subaru that has a bad
tranny, or is wrecked in such a way that the engine is not harmed. If
you are in or near a fairly large city, something may show up on
Craigslist for a lot less that a wrecking yard would get for an engine.
First, ask the mechanic what he would charge to pull the engine out and
put it in yours, and the years and models of Subaru which would have the
same engine. I see stuff like this all the time on CL, for $200-300,
often with nearly new tires or other major parts that are nearly new.
Besides the engine, keep whatever else is in good shape and you think
you may use in the future, and sell the rest for scrap metal. Larry

The only problem with the custo9mer supplying the engine is that if it
turns out that the engine has a knock or otherwise isn't as good as
expected, the installer is not responsible to do anyting about it.
Even if the person who sold you the engine gives you a second engine
for free, you will be paying again for the labor. Buy the engine from
the installer or you will be taking a very large risk.

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:
-snip-
How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).
Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.
If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.


Most higher performance engines are "interference" designs and do not
suffer failures so gracefully. A high compression ratio and the ability
to break a timing belt without crashing valves are mutually exclusive.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:41:18 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:
-snip-
How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).
Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.
If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.


Most higher performance engines are "interference" designs and do not
suffer failures so gracefully. A high compression ratio and the ability
to break a timing belt without crashing valves are mutually exclusive.

nate

My point is that many cars that you would EXPECT to have issues, do
not. I also had the fiber timing gear on my 1969 Pontiac Firebird 400
HO convertible fail under hard acceleration. It quietly coasted to a
stop. No damage other than the gear. That was a a high compression,
high performance engine from prehistoric times that seems to also defy
your generalization.

wrote:
....

My point is that many cars that you would EXPECT to have issues, do
not. I also had the fiber timing gear on my 1969 Pontiac Firebird 400
HO convertible fail under hard acceleration. It quietly coasted to a
stop. No damage other than the gear. That was a a high compression,
high performance engine from prehistoric times that seems to also defy
your generalization.

Depends entirely on what you're using to create the expectations
from...compression and a specific definition of "high performance" that
epitomized the muscle-car era aren't the appropriate ones. Those were
not "interference" engine designs; in fact virtually all were very
conventional old pushrod designs w/ simply beefed up compression and
high cfm carb's that sucked gasoline at a prodigious rate to generate
those hp. (Since had '69 Charger, know the symptoms well... )

--

wrote:
....

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.

OTOH, the Honda CRX I mentioned earlier was the other end...no noise in
self-destructing but beyond reasonable repair. The switchout was the
logical choice...

--

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:27:40 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:

-snip-

How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.
The RAV engine is a "non-interference" engine.
Something just over half, I would guess, of current belt driven
camshaft motors today are technically non-interference engines - but
that still leaves a lot of destruction waiting to happen.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:31:49 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:20:26 -0600, (Lp1331 1p1331)
wrote:

If the engine is indeed shot, one thing you may do rather than buy an
engine from a wrecking yard is to find another Subaru that has a bad
tranny, or is wrecked in such a way that the engine is not harmed. If
you are in or near a fairly large city, something may show up on
Craigslist for a lot less that a wrecking yard would get for an engine.
First, ask the mechanic what he would charge to pull the engine out and
put it in yours, and the years and models of Subaru which would have the
same engine. I see stuff like this all the time on CL, for $200-300,
often with nearly new tires or other major parts that are nearly new.
Besides the engine, keep whatever else is in good shape and you think
you may use in the future, and sell the rest for scrap metal. Larry

The only problem with the custo9mer supplying the engine is that if it
turns out that the engine has a knock or otherwise isn't as good as
expected, the installer is not responsible to do anyting about it.
Even if the person who sold you the engine gives you a second engine
for free, you will be paying again for the labor. Buy the engine from
the installer or you will be taking a very large risk.

Or just buy a good running engine in a scrapped car that you can run
and have the mechanic/installer test out before installing.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:41:18 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:
-snip-
How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).
Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.
If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.


Most higher performance engines are "interference" designs and do not
suffer failures so gracefully. A high compression ratio and the ability
to break a timing belt without crashing valves are mutually exclusive.


Not entirely true. There are quite a few high performance engines that
are non-interference engines.
nate

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:55:55 -0600, dpb wrote:

wrote:
...

My point is that many cars that you would EXPECT to have issues, do
not. I also had the fiber timing gear on my 1969 Pontiac Firebird 400
HO convertible fail under hard acceleration. It quietly coasted to a
stop. No damage other than the gear. That was a a high compression,
high performance engine from prehistoric times that seems to also defy
your generalization.

Depends entirely on what you're using to create the expectations
from...compression and a specific definition of "high performance" that
epitomized the muscle-car era aren't the appropriate ones. Those were
not "interference" engine designs; in fact virtually all were very
conventional old pushrod designs w/ simply beefed up compression and
high cfm carb's that sucked gasoline at a prodigious rate to generate
those hp. (Since had '69 Charger, know the symptoms well... )


Well,certain models of the 283/207/237/305/350 SBC engines could ALL
bend valves if the valve timing was off. Bent a lot of push-rods
too!!!!

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:41:18 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:
-snip-
How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).
Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.
If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim
My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.

Most higher performance engines are "interference" designs and do not
suffer failures so gracefully. A high compression ratio and the ability
to break a timing belt without crashing valves are mutually exclusive.


Not entirely true. There are quite a few high performance engines that
are non-interference engines.

I suspect that most of those are turbo'd or supercharged. Aside from
the physical impossibility of getting the chambers small enough to
provide a high compression ratio, valve reliefs in the piston crowns are
bad in and of themselves in terms of performance (hot spots, pockets, etc.)

Now if you're talking about older V-8 thumpers then yes I would agree
with you, but those typically don't have timing belts, either.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote in :

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:26:19 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:46:30 -0500, George
wrote:

-snip-

How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never
heard of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if
basic mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps
a tooth).

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned
something new.

If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that
can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.

Jim

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while
powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or
anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt
and idler assembly. No collateral damage.


It's called a non-interference engine.

wrote:
....

Well,certain models of the 283/207/237/305/350 SBC engines could ALL
bend valves if the valve timing was off. Bent a lot of push-rods
too!!!!

Yeah, realized I typed before engaging there...the symptoms can end up
similar, just the mechanism of "how" is different. Fortunately, the old
timing chains gave more warning than the belts do by being noisy when
they stretched if one paid attention...

The dang CRX was told it had had a new timing belt before I bought
it--turned out they lied...

--

dpb wrote in :

wrote:
...

My point is that many cars that you would EXPECT to have issues, do
not. I also had the fiber timing gear on my 1969 Pontiac Firebird 400
HO convertible fail under hard acceleration. It quietly coasted to a
stop. No damage other than the gear. That was a a high compression,
high performance engine from prehistoric times that seems to also defy
your generalization.

Depends entirely on what you're using to create the expectations
from...compression and a specific definition of "high performance" that
epitomized the muscle-car era aren't the appropriate ones. Those were
not "interference" engine designs; in fact virtually all were very
conventional old pushrod designs w/ simply beefed up compression and
high cfm carb's that sucked gasoline at a prodigious rate to generate
those hp. (Since had '69 Charger, know the symptoms well... )

--




sucked gasoline at a prodigious rate

Ever had a pickup with a 350 and a Holly 4bbl? If you add up the digits
of the engine ci, that's the mpg.

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:37 -0600, AZ Nomad wrote:
It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.

There's still brakes and timing belts and clutches and coolant pumps and
other stuff to worry about once the mileage gets high enough, though - and
I suspect lots of folk out there believe that if it's a modern vehicle
it therefore needs no care at all...




Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the
head/heads to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

TDD

FWIW, I had an Isuzu 4 cyl Diesel break the timing belt, and it was a
collision motor. Luckily, the valves are straight up and down, rather
than at an angle, and all it did was snap 2 or 3 rocker arms, which were
aluminum, or some other fairly soft metal. No other damage done Larry

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:29:50 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:37 -0600, AZ Nomad wrote:
It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.

There's still brakes and timing belts and clutches and coolant pumps and
other stuff to worry about once the mileage gets high enough, though - and
I suspect lots of folk out there believe that if it's a modern vehicle
it therefore needs no care at all...




Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the
head/heads to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

It used to be a miracle if a car went to 100K miles. Now, something
is really wrong if a car can't get past 150K miles.

I don't miss the days of when I owned a VW bug. The thing didn't
accelerate, didn't handle, got lousy gas mileage, was unreliable, and was
uncomfortable as hell. The POS only looked like a dreamcar when
compared to american cars of the 70's. 21mpg was wonderful compared to
the 7-10 mpg gas guzzlers coming from detroit.

Lp1331 1p1331 wrote:
FWIW, I had an Isuzu 4 cyl Diesel break the timing belt, and it was a
collision motor. Luckily, the valves are straight up and down, rather
than at an angle, and all it did was snap 2 or 3 rocker arms, which were
aluminum, or some other fairly soft metal. No other damage done Larry


Pretty much all Diesels are interference engines as they have
compression ratios in the area of 18:1 to 24:1 or higher

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:29:50 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:37 -0600, AZ Nomad wrote:
It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.
There's still brakes and timing belts and clutches and coolant pumps and
other stuff to worry about once the mileage gets high enough, though - and
I suspect lots of folk out there believe that if it's a modern vehicle
it therefore needs no care at all...




Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the
head/heads to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

It used to be a miracle if a car went to 100K miles. Now, something
is really wrong if a car can't get past 150K miles.

I don't miss the days of when I owned a VW bug. The thing didn't
accelerate, didn't handle, got lousy gas mileage, was unreliable, and was
uncomfortable as hell. The POS only looked like a dreamcar when
compared to american cars of the 70's. 21mpg was wonderful compared to
the 7-10 mpg gas guzzlers coming from detroit.

Back in the 70's I owned 3 Renault cars, I had two R-10's a 67 and
a 73, the other a 71 R-16. I had so much fun with those wonderfully
weird conveyances. They were so funky. I found some videos of the
10's, all three of my cars were blue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMQ359twQv4

The 16 looked a lot like this one except the USA versions had quad
round sealed beam headlights. A funky 4 speed on the column worked
smoothly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VybCpvyRtFU

Darn! I wish I had those funky cars now. The 67 model 10 had an 1108cc
engine an got incredible gas mileage.

TDD

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:28:49 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:29:50 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:37 -0600, AZ Nomad wrote:
It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.
There's still brakes and timing belts and clutches and coolant pumps and
other stuff to worry about once the mileage gets high enough, though - and
I suspect lots of folk out there believe that if it's a modern vehicle
it therefore needs no care at all...




Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the
head/heads to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

It used to be a miracle if a car went to 100K miles. Now, something
is really wrong if a car can't get past 150K miles.

I don't miss the days of when I owned a VW bug. The thing didn't
accelerate, didn't handle, got lousy gas mileage, was unreliable, and was
uncomfortable as hell. The POS only looked like a dreamcar when
compared to american cars of the 70's. 21mpg was wonderful compared to
the 7-10 mpg gas guzzlers coming from detroit.

Back in the 70's I owned 3 Renault cars, I had two R-10's a 67 and
a 73, the other a 71 R-16. I had so much fun with those wonderfully
weird conveyances. They were so funky. I found some videos of the
10's, all three of my cars were blue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMQ359twQv4

The 16 looked a lot like this one except the USA versions had quad
round sealed beam headlights. A funky 4 speed on the column worked
smoothly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VybCpvyRtFU

Darn! I wish I had those funky cars now. The 67 model 10 had an 1108cc
engine an got incredible gas mileage.

TDD

I rallied a '67 R12 with the "little" engine for 3 years. Tough cars
with INCREDIBLE suspension, but a royal pain to work on WHEN something
broke. Never broke on a rallye, if you don't count tearing the muffler
off the second or third time out.

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:28:49 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:29:50 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:37 -0600, AZ Nomad wrote:
It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.
There's still brakes and timing belts and clutches and coolant pumps and
other stuff to worry about once the mileage gets high enough, though - and
I suspect lots of folk out there believe that if it's a modern vehicle
it therefore needs no care at all...



Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the
head/heads to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.
It used to be a miracle if a car went to 100K miles. Now, something
is really wrong if a car can't get past 150K miles.

I don't miss the days of when I owned a VW bug. The thing didn't
accelerate, didn't handle, got lousy gas mileage, was unreliable, and was
uncomfortable as hell. The POS only looked like a dreamcar when
compared to american cars of the 70's. 21mpg was wonderful compared to
the 7-10 mpg gas guzzlers coming from detroit.
Back in the 70's I owned 3 Renault cars, I had two R-10's a 67 and
a 73, the other a 71 R-16. I had so much fun with those wonderfully
weird conveyances. They were so funky. I found some videos of the
10's, all three of my cars were blue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMQ359twQv4

The 16 looked a lot like this one except the USA versions had quad
round sealed beam headlights. A funky 4 speed on the column worked
smoothly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VybCpvyRtFU

Darn! I wish I had those funky cars now. The 67 model 10 had an 1108cc
engine an got incredible gas mileage.

TDD

I rallied a '67 R12 with the "little" engine for 3 years. Tough cars
with INCREDIBLE suspension, but a royal pain to work on WHEN something
broke. Never broke on a rallye, if you don't count tearing the muffler
off the second or third time out.




That 67 R-10 I had weighed only 1730lbs and it was very light on it's
feet.....er, wheels. It made it lots fun to drive. Rack and pinion
manual steering, non-power four wheel disc brakes and fully independent
suspension. I could hit a bump in the middle of a corner at speed and
the little critter would never stray from the line. I named the car
Pierre and I miss him. If you look at the rear of the car, there is a
little keyhole bracket under the middle of the bumper. It was a guide
for the screw jack handle that you could slip in, engage the pulley on
the crankshaft and manually crank the engine, it was so neat.

TDD

"The Daring Dufas" wrote

Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the head/heads
to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

TDD

There's an ad at a Chevy dealer in a small town near us from the thirties.
It was $18 for a valve job on a straight six.

Steve

"AZ Nomad" wrote

I don't miss the days of when I owned a VW bug. The thing didn't
accelerate, didn't handle, got lousy gas mileage, was unreliable, and was
uncomfortable as hell. The POS only looked like a dreamcar when
compared to american cars of the 70's. 21mpg was wonderful compared to
the 7-10 mpg gas guzzlers coming from detroit.

I had a '69 with a 1650 made by a Porsche mechanic in Houston. It had a
Holley Bugsprayer carb, headers, mechanical advance distributor, a cam,
roller rocker arms, big oil cooler, and a clutch from the VW Transporter
truck. It screamed, and I could get third gear scratch. It turned a lot of
heads. It would do 90 down the freeway. Handling was squirrely, though.

Steve

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:51:53 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:33:05 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

You could probably get a guaranteed used engine installed for a lot
less than a rebuild of that one. Find a junkyard that has a low
mileage wreck with rear end damage. Selling and installing the engine
is almost pure profit for them. Negotiate!

Since it is all "profit" where does the money come from for payroll,
rent or building maintenance, heat, electricity, taxes, tools,
equipment, insurance etc?
All those costs exist without doing engine installs. It's gravy for
them. The point is that the materials are pretty close to zero cost.
It's all labor from employees who are on the clock anyway, and might
otherwise have nothing to keep them busy 100% of the time.

Go visit a wrecking yard, and then get back to us with what you
discover.

And the person running such an operation might be called "former
business owner" or even "bankrupt".

I have been to wrecking yards and have never observed employees hanging
around waiting for something to do and I am sure someone paid for the
buildings, tools supplies, maintenance and all of the other stuff that
goes into operating a business and that someone also will pay for the
new tools and supplies that are purchased. Add all of that up and
apportion it and nothing in a business is "zero cost".

Feel free to remain ignorant, if that's what you prefer.


Delivering an ad hominem attack when you are unable to defend your
position just reduces your credibility even more and only digs you into
an even deeper hole..

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:51:53 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:33:05 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

You could probably get a guaranteed used engine installed for a lot
less than a rebuild of that one. Find a junkyard that has a low
mileage wreck with rear end damage. Selling and installing the engine
is almost pure profit for them. Negotiate!

Since it is all "profit" where does the money come from for payroll,
rent or building maintenance, heat, electricity, taxes, tools,
equipment, insurance etc?
All those costs exist without doing engine installs. It's gravy for
them. The point is that the materials are pretty close to zero cost.
It's all labor from employees who are on the clock anyway, and might
otherwise have nothing to keep them busy 100% of the time.

Go visit a wrecking yard, and then get back to us with what you
discover.

And the person running such an operation might be called "former
business owner" or even "bankrupt".

I have been to wrecking yards and have never observed employees hanging
around waiting for something to do and I am sure someone paid for the
buildings, tools supplies, maintenance and all of the other stuff that
goes into operating a business and that someone also will pay for the
new tools and supplies that are purchased. Add all of that up and
apportion it and nothing in a business is "zero cost".

Feel free to remain ignorant, if that's what you prefer.


Delivering an ad hominem attack when you are unable to defend your
position just reduces your credibility even more and only digs you into
an even deeper hole..

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:39:21 -0800, Steve B wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote

Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the head/heads
to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

TDD

There's an ad at a Chevy dealer in a small town near us from the thirties.
It was $18 for a valve job on a straight six.

Cars cost $640 average then; $18 then is like paying $600 today.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:39:21 -0800, Steve B wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote

Remember back when the service manual recommended removing the head/heads
to clean the carbon buildup every xx thousand miles?
GEEZ! I seem to recall having to do a lot of fiddling with my
50's, 60's and 70's vehicles just to keep them running reasonably
well. When I was younger, I loved tinkering with engines, now I
just want to get in the darn thing and go.

TDD

There's an ad at a Chevy dealer in a small town near us from the thirties.
It was $18 for a valve job on a straight six.

Cars cost $640 average then; $18 then is like paying $600 today.