My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that
evaluation could require major engine disassembly which could cost so much
that no sane owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the
car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after the
plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with? Right
length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug? Seems like
some things could point to the mechanic, as unlikely as that seems based on
his track record. Or, manufacturer.

Any other thoughts on this?

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life.

What are the oil and coolant levels like? Any oil in the coolant expansion
tank?

All sorts of things can make "nasty noises" - are we talking knocking,
scraping, high-pitched squeal, something else?

At the bad end of the scale, valves hitting pistons due to worn timing
gear (although I'm not sure if the Legacy's engine is an interference
design where that could happen), or a major bearing fault. At the other
end of the scale, I had a locking tab break on a cam gear in an engine
once which made a heck of a noise, but it was maybe a $1 part and a ten
minute fix.

He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that evaluation could
require major engine disassembly which could cost so much that no sane
owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the car is
toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

Can you get a second opinion? Maybe tow it to a garage if you have to so
someone can listen to it (just keep in mind that you're free to tow it to
more than one garage - don't feel obligated to leave it with the first
garage you go to)

Lots of mechanics will be able to narrow it down by ear (and experience).

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after
the plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with?
Right length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug?

What makes you think it's related to plugs? Was something changed recently
that you didn't mention in your post?

Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been
sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life.

What are the oil and coolant levels like? Any oil in the coolant expansion
tank?

All sorts of things can make "nasty noises" - are we talking knocking,
scraping, high-pitched squeal, something else?

At the bad end of the scale, valves hitting pistons due to worn timing
gear (although I'm not sure if the Legacy's engine is an interference
design where that could happen), or a major bearing fault. At the other
end of the scale, I had a locking tab break on a cam gear in an engine
once which made a heck of a noise, but it was maybe a $1 part and a ten
minute fix.

He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that evaluation could
require major engine disassembly which could cost so much that no sane
owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the car is
toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

Can you get a second opinion? Maybe tow it to a garage if you have to so
someone can listen to it (just keep in mind that you're free to tow it to
more than one garage - don't feel obligated to leave it with the first
garage you go to)

Lots of mechanics will be able to narrow it down by ear (and experience).

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after
the plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with?
Right length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug?

What makes you think it's related to plugs? Was something changed recently
that you didn't mention in your post?


I thought of plugs because it's the only one of many possible causes I've
read about in the past day. Misleading, but it's all I had in mind at the
moment.

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)


Mechanically inclined enough, but not enough time, and it's winter here.
These things never seem to happen when the weather's decent.

So, I'm just gathering ideas.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
:

My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been
sitting in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do.
Except for warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent
mechanic throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he
says that evaluation could require major engine disassembly which
could cost so much that no sane owner would want to even go that far
just to find out that the car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent
condition.

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after
the plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with?
Right length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug?
Seems like some things could point to the mechanic, as unlikely as
that seems based on his track record. Or, manufacturer.

Any other thoughts on this?




Who knows? But pulling the plugs and looking at them might tell a lot
although pulling the plugs can be involved in itself on some vehicles.
I'm sure any decent shop has a camera they can put in the hole to look
inside the cylinder. I mean they have cameras they can run in house
pipes, in your veins, in your pecker and up your can.

Nasty noises in the motor could be anything from bad gas to bad bearings.
rings, crank, valves and cams. And all these computer chips can make a
vehicle do weird stuff too. Gee I miss my simple 77 GMC and 61 Falcon.

Anyway, if mechanic is a high suspect, whoever does the diagnostic has to
be credible on paper if she plans on going back at the mechanic for
compensation.

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)


Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that
evaluation could require major engine disassembly which could cost so much
that no sane owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the
car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after the
plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with? Right
length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug? Seems like
some things could point to the mechanic, as unlikely as that seems based on
his track record. Or, manufacturer.

Any other thoughts on this?

A friend of mine has one of those confounded new Beetles sitting in his
driveway. Well, it's a few years old, but he bought it new. Six months
ago he put in some newfangled designer spark plugs that cost way too
much money. A month later, one of them disintegrated and trashed the
cylinder. So now he needs an engine rebuild. Nice.

I would definitely have it diagnosed to find out exactly what the
problem is, rather than just guesses. If it does turn out that the
engine is shot, an alternative could be a wrecking yard engine. If the
car is in otherwise good shape,paid for, and she likes the car, it could
make sense to fix it, even if if it does cost $1000 or so. That would be
a judgement call on her part. Repairs may cost what 4-6 payments on a
replacement car would be. Larry

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that
evaluation could require major engine disassembly which could cost so much
that no sane owner would want to even go that far just to find out that the
car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

Unless you're primarily interested in adding a room, or perhaps
replacing a toilet, this doesn't belong in a.h.r., even if you live in
the car. Try rec.autos.tech.

If the mechanic is competant, he can find out if the problem is major
without doing any dissassembly at all. There's probably no way he can damage
it worse than has already occured and the problem might just be the
bearings of an accessory. If the mechanic is unwilling to start the
car then find another.

It is insane to write off the car without even starting it again and
listening for where the noise is coming from.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been
sitting
in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do. Except for
warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent mechanic
throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he says that
evaluation could require major engine disassembly which could cost so
much
that no sane owner would want to even go that far just to find out that
the
car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent condition.

So, ***if*** we were dealing with a spark plug which was broken due to
incorrect length, wouldn't that have happened almost immediately after
the
plugs were installed? Assuming yes, what else are we left with? Right
length, wrong plug (temperature)? Wrong torque? Defective plug? Seems
like
some things could point to the mechanic, as unlikely as that seems based
on
his track record. Or, manufacturer.

Any other thoughts on this?

A friend of mine has one of those confounded new Beetles sitting in his
driveway. Well, it's a few years old, but he bought it new. Six months
ago he put in some newfangled designer spark plugs that cost way too
much money. A month later, one of them disintegrated and trashed the
cylinder. So now he needs an engine rebuild. Nice.


Yeah - that's why when my son had two web pages full of plugs in front of
him, trying to decide which ones were the prettiest, I said "Go to the
Toyota dealer. Go to the Toyota dealer. Go to the Toyota dealer. Go to the
Toyota dealer." He did. He's happy.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)


Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

Whoever replaced the plugs last or perhaps the plug maker owes you an
engine overhaul.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

A plug "broken"??? How? What broke? In 50 years w/ all personal
automobiles and light trucks plus tractors and other farm equipment BD
(before diesel) I've never seen a broken plug other than breaking the
insulation or somesuch external damage.

Unless something like the other doofus-caused damage this seems more
than peculiar it was the plug. I, like another poster, don't know the
engine but if caused mechanical damage to a plug the timing or a rod or
somesuch sound more proximate causes than a plug. The plug may be a
symptom...

I swapped a rebuilt engine into an old Honda CRX years ago for not a lot
of money...back then there was an abundant supply from Japan owing to a
change in their emission requirements iiuc. Don't know what options
would be at the moment for that one. Generally, if a vehicle is still
otherwise in good shape one can still repair pretty major for less than
what would spend on the replacement (unless one is extremely fortunate
or disciplined in the process anyway).

--

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

-snip-

Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

Only you can determine if it is worth it to spend that much money on
that car. My mechanic has recommended that I junk my daughters 99
Grand Am a couple times. Since we know the entire history of the
car, it runs fine despite the 200,000 miles on it, the body and
interior are in great shape, and she likes the car, we've spent the
money-- and I'm glad we have.

If it was *my* mechanic telling me that about *my* car, I'd be tempted
to go ahead and have it overhauled. I couldn't replace it for
$3 grand. [and know exactly what is new and old on it]

Jim

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as
it went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown -
$1500 or so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it
for a car with book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably
being cautious and preparing her for worst case scenario.

A incorrect spark plug that is too long will manifest itself upon the very
first revolution of the engine.

Since you have a confirmed damaged plug, my guess is that you dropped a
valve. If that is the case, the valve is what damaged the plug, not the
other way around.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom
wrote:
"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)


Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500
or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car
with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

Whoever replaced the plugs last or perhaps the plug maker owes you an
engine overhaul.


Spoke to her a little while ago. She's thinking they may never have been
replaced. She's checking through a pile of receipts, while complaining that
our mechanic should've told her to do plugs at the recommended interval.
This is one instance where one of our mechanic's best selling points may be
at fault: While working on our cars, he'll point out stuff that needs to be
done in the future so we can plan our budgets. For instance, if he's
rotating tires, he'll say "Think 6 months for front brakes, unless you start
driving a lot more than usual."

BUT: He leaves it up to the customer to keep an eye on the car's service
intervals and request certain things, which I like. If (and this is a big
IF) plugs can fall apart due simply to age, who's at fault? The mechanic for
never saying "tuneup time", or the customer, for not keeping an eye on the
service schedule in the owner's manual?

And why am I in the middle of all this? :-) Don't ask.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:47:11 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom
wrote:
"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)


Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500
or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car
with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

Whoever replaced the plugs last or perhaps the plug maker owes you an
engine overhaul.


Spoke to her a little while ago. She's thinking they may never have been
replaced. She's checking through a pile of receipts, while complaining that
our mechanic should've told her to do plugs at the recommended interval.
This is one instance where one of our mechanic's best selling points may be
at fault: While working on our cars, he'll point out stuff that needs to be
done in the future so we can plan our budgets. For instance, if he's
rotating tires, he'll say "Think 6 months for front brakes, unless you start
driving a lot more than usual."

BUT: He leaves it up to the customer to keep an eye on the car's service
intervals and request certain things, which I like. If (and this is a big
IF) plugs can fall apart due simply to age, who's at fault? The mechanic for
never saying "tuneup time", or the customer, for not keeping an eye on the
service schedule in the owner's manual?

And why am I in the middle of all this? :-) Don't ask.


It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....

Spoke to her a little while ago. She's thinking they may never have been
replaced. She's checking through a pile of receipts, while complaining that
our mechanic should've told her to do plugs at the recommended interval.
....

The plug itself almost certainly had nothing to do w/ it...it's just a
symptom of what went wrong. Nor would have replacing them @100k or
whatever was the recommended interval likely have made any difference.

--

For the broken plug. Take the broken plug out, and then
start the engine for a couple seconds. It will be
unbelievably noisy. But, the missing plug will allow a hole
for the pieces of metal, etc, to come flying out. Don't be
any where near the hole, even with safety goggles.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...

Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a
look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's
as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major
teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it
for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being
cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

On Dec 8, 10:13*am, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
"Larry Fishel" wrote in message

...

Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)

Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

Where was the plug broken, what part of it, did it melt, what is the
plugs color, did you try a new one just to see what happens or try a
compression test. So post a photo of it, you can tell alot about a
cars overall running condition and age by looking at a plug. A 15 $
compression tester and a new plug will tell you alot.

AZ Nomad wrote in
:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom
wrote:
My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been
sitting in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do.
Except for warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent
mechanic throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he
says that evaluation could require major engine disassembly which
could cost so much that no sane owner would want to even go that far
just to find out that the car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent
condition.

Unless you're primarily interested in adding a room, or perhaps
replacing a toilet, this doesn't belong in a.h.r., even if you live in
the car. Try rec.autos.tech.

Joe: Next time post cool devastation pics and you won't get your ass
reamed :-)


If the mechanic is competant, he can find out if the problem is major
without doing any dissassembly at all. There's probably no way he can
damage it worse than has already occured and the problem might just be
the bearings of an accessory. If the mechanic is unwilling to start
the car then find another.

It is insane to write off the car without even starting it again and
listening for where the noise is coming from.

Your mechanic sounds a bit like me. Fix it when it breaks.
You're in the middle cause you'e a caring parent?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...

Spoke to her a little while ago. She's thinking they may
never have been
replaced. She's checking through a pile of receipts, while
complaining that
our mechanic should've told her to do plugs at the
recommended interval.
This is one instance where one of our mechanic's best
selling points may be
at fault: While working on our cars, he'll point out stuff
that needs to be
done in the future so we can plan our budgets. For instance,
if he's
rotating tires, he'll say "Think 6 months for front brakes,
unless you start
driving a lot more than usual."

BUT: He leaves it up to the customer to keep an eye on the
car's service
intervals and request certain things, which I like. If (and
this is a big
IF) plugs can fall apart due simply to age, who's at fault?
The mechanic for
never saying "tuneup time", or the customer, for not keeping
an eye on the
service schedule in the owner's manual?

And why am I in the middle of all this? :-) Don't ask.

wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)

Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.


You could probably get a guaranteed used engine installed for a lot
less than a rebuild of that one. Find a junkyard that has a low
mileage wreck with rear end damage. Selling and installing the engine
is almost pure profit for them. Negotiate!

Since it is all "profit" where does the money come from for payroll,
rent or building maintenance, heat, electricity, taxes, tools,
equipment, insurance etc?

That's basically the reason. She's low on cash, and doesn't understand why I
give a damn. The day after this car mess began, there was a death on her
side of the family, so she's overwhelmed.

The mechanic really is quite remarkable. Over the years, he's talked me OUT
of doing certain things to old cars. He's very good at presenting the
mechanical facts, but at some point, that aspect runs out of steam and it
comes down to financial decisions which only the owner can make.


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Your mechanic sounds a bit like me. Fix it when it breaks.
You're in the middle cause you'e a caring parent?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...

Spoke to her a little while ago. She's thinking they may
never have been
replaced. She's checking through a pile of receipts, while
complaining that
our mechanic should've told her to do plugs at the
recommended interval.
This is one instance where one of our mechanic's best
selling points may be
at fault: While working on our cars, he'll point out stuff
that needs to be
done in the future so we can plan our budgets. For instance,
if he's
rotating tires, he'll say "Think 6 months for front brakes,
unless you start
driving a lot more than usual."

BUT: He leaves it up to the customer to keep an eye on the
car's service
intervals and request certain things, which I like. If (and
this is a big
IF) plugs can fall apart due simply to age, who's at fault?
The mechanic for
never saying "tuneup time", or the customer, for not keeping
an eye on the
service schedule in the owner's manual?

And why am I in the middle of all this? :-) Don't ask.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:28:52 -0600, Red Green wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote in
:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom
wrote:
My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been
sitting in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do.
Except for warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent
mechanic throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he
says that evaluation could require major engine disassembly which
could cost so much that no sane owner would want to even go that far
just to find out that the car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent
condition.

Unless you're primarily interested in adding a room, or perhaps
replacing a toilet, this doesn't belong in a.h.r., even if you live in
the car. Try rec.autos.tech.

Joe: Next time post cool devastation pics and you won't get your ass
reamed :-)

Mmmm, engine devastation... :-)

Fond memories here of an old friend buying a vehicle once where it was
obvious that the engine was about to go (it was dirt-cheap, and he had an
engine already lined up for us to drop in). Sounded like a clothes dryer
full of bricks when it ran. It was about 5 miles to the house, so the
decision to risk driving it back was made. He kept the revs low, tried not
to stress it too much, and amazingly it got to about 50ft from the house
when the engine went bang - a *loud* bang, too. Managed to coast it right
up into the driveway... and then we had to go back along the road and
clean up the trail of engine parts.

Near as we could tell from the wreckage it was an oilway to a main bearing
that had originally blocked; the loud knocking sound it was making (which
was the point when the previous owners parked it up on their driveway) was
the crank bouncing around after the bearing shells had started to
disintegrate due to lack of oil. When it let go completely, the (alloy)
sump was demolished when one of the big ends exited the bottom of the
engine, whilst the corresponding piston went upwards and high speed and
completely trashed the head.

A picture's worth a thousand words, and I really wish I'd taken photos at
the time :-(

cheers

Jules

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:28:52 -0600, Red Green wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote in
:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:16:08 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom
wrote:
My ex's 1999 Subaru Legacy (4 cyl, 126K miles) began making some nasty
noises in the motor a week ago. She drove it 2 blocks and it's been
sitting in the driveway ever since, while she ponders what to do.
Except for warranty work, It's been maintained by one very competent
mechanic throughout its life. He's hesitant to mess with it because he
says that evaluation could require major engine disassembly which
could cost so much that no sane owner would want to even go that far
just to find out that the car is toast. Car is in otherwise excellent
condition.

Unless you're primarily interested in adding a room, or perhaps
replacing a toilet, this doesn't belong in a.h.r., even if you live in
the car. Try rec.autos.tech.

Joe: Next time post cool devastation pics and you won't get your ass
reamed :-)

Mmmm, engine devastation... :-)

Fond memories here of an old friend buying a vehicle once where it was
obvious that the engine was about to go (it was dirt-cheap, and he had an
engine already lined up for us to drop in). Sounded like a clothes dryer
full of bricks when it ran. It was about 5 miles to the house, so the
decision to risk driving it back was made. He kept the revs low, tried not
to stress it too much, and amazingly it got to about 50ft from the house
when the engine went bang - a *loud* bang, too. Managed to coast it right
up into the driveway... and then we had to go back along the road and
clean up the trail of engine parts.

Near as we could tell from the wreckage it was an oilway to a main bearing
that had originally blocked; the loud knocking sound it was making (which
was the point when the previous owners parked it up on their driveway) was
the crank bouncing around after the bearing shells had started to
disintegrate due to lack of oil. When it let go completely, the (alloy)
sump was demolished when one of the big ends exited the bottom of the
engine, whilst the corresponding piston went upwards and high speed and
completely trashed the head.

A picture's worth a thousand words, and I really wish I'd taken photos at
the time :-(

cheers

Jules



I see a reality show in the making. :-)

dpb wrote:
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
...

Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at
the car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as
far as it went. He said "No way to determine damage without major
teardown - $1500 or so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 -
not worth it for a car with book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy
is probably being cautious and preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.


A plug "broken"??? How? What broke? In 50 years w/ all personal
automobiles and light trucks plus tractors and other farm equipment BD
(before diesel) I've never seen a broken plug other than breaking the
insulation or somesuch external damage.

Well I have....

A few years ago my wife's 100K plus miles Oldsmobile had a tune up
including new plugs and plug leads. A few weeks later a noticable miss
developed and my mechanic found that one of the plugs he'd just replaced
had lost it's ground electrode. He replaced the plug "under warranty"
and her car seemed to be running OK after that.

About 8 months later her car failed the emissions portion of our annual
state inspection because the engine computer was reporting uneven
firing. A compression test showed weak compression in the same cylinder
which had its spark plug lose its electrode.

The upshot was that a valve job was needed to make things right again.
The exhaust valve in the weak cylinder and its seat had a "groove" in
them which looked like it might have been caused by slamming down on
that spark plug electrode which had fallen off.

There was no way of "proving" the valve problem was the direct result of
that failed spark plug, and because I trust and want to keep the great
relationship I have with my mechanic, I just paid the bill without
trying to create a ruckus over it.

I'm still fondly remembering the olde days when I could fix anything on
our cars with my own tools and knowledge. Nowadays it seems like I'm
doing repairs with my checkbook more often than my tools. G

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

Unless something like the other doofus-caused damage this seems more
than peculiar it was the plug. I, like another poster, don't know the
engine but if caused mechanical damage to a plug the timing or a rod or
somesuch sound more proximate causes than a plug. The plug may be a
symptom...

I swapped a rebuilt engine into an old Honda CRX years ago for not a lot
of money...back then there was an abundant supply from Japan owing to a
change in their emission requirements iiuc. Don't know what options
would be at the moment for that one. Generally, if a vehicle is still
otherwise in good shape one can still repair pretty major for less than
what would spend on the replacement (unless one is extremely fortunate
or disciplined in the process anyway).

--

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:56:37 -0600, AZ Nomad wrote:
It's a little weird with today's cars. Except for spark plugs, there
really is nothing to tune up any more. Cars don't have points or
carbs. With unleaded gas, spark plugs last at least 50K miles. I've
replaced plugs after 50K miles that looked like they could have gone
another 50K miles.

There's still brakes and timing belts and clutches and coolant pumps and
other stuff to worry about once the mileage gets high enough, though - and
I suspect lots of folk out there believe that if it's a modern vehicle
it therefore needs no care at all...

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:28:30 -0600, dpb wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
...
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

A plug "broken"??? How? What broke? In 50 years w/ all personal
automobiles and light trucks plus tractors and other farm equipment BD
(before diesel) I've never seen a broken plug other than breaking the
insulation or somesuch external damage.

I've seen them break due to overheating, but I don't think I've ever seen
one that's "just broken" either.

If it's outright smashed and there are no issues with the cooling system
then *something* had to have hit it...

cheers

Jules

jeff_wisnia wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

A plug "broken"??? How? What broke? In 50 years w/ all personal
automobiles and light trucks plus tractors and other farm equipment BD
(before diesel) I've never seen a broken plug other than breaking the
insulation or somesuch external damage.

Well I have....

A few years ago my wife's 100K plus miles Oldsmobile had a tune up
including new plugs and plug leads. A few weeks later a noticable miss
developed and my mechanic found that one of the plugs he'd just replaced
had lost it's ground electrode. He replaced the plug "under warranty"
and her car seemed to be running OK after that.
....

Stuff _can_ happen but it surely isn't common.

If the electrode was gone when the plug came out, it likely was laying
on top of the cylinder. They should've gotten it out then rather than
just sticking another plug in and going on...

--

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:28:30 -0800 (PST), ransley
wrote:

Where was the plug broken, what part of it, did it melt, what is the
plugs color, did you try a new one just to see what happens or try a
compression test. So post a photo of it, you can tell alot about a
cars overall running condition and age by looking at a plug. A 15 $
compression tester and a new plug will tell you alot.

Nice little chart he

http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingg...colorchart.htm

OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?

Valve wrecked?

Valve seat(s) wrecked?

Piston damaged? Top? Sides? Don't ask, it's too scary?

On Dec 8, 2:42*pm, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?

Worst case is something like:

The timing belt/chain is worn and skipped a tooth (just fixing this
could be a few hundred).
This caused the pistons to hit the valves, damaging the valves, a
spark plug, head, pistons and possibly even rods.
Broken bits of valve and/or spark plug gouged the cylinder walls.

Or, you could just have a bit of broken spark plug bounding around in
there and running it for a few seconds with that plug out will clear
it out.

Somewhere in between those two...

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:42:26 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?

Valve wrecked?

Valve seat(s) wrecked?

Piston damaged? Top? Sides? Don't ask, it's too scary?


All that, plus scarred cylinder wall , malted rings, yawn.

Start with a compression test. Even check all the cylinders for good
compression.

Oren wrote in news48th599bmqtco8fkdbsharahk42tv1t5h@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:28:30 -0800 (PST), ransley
wrote:

Where was the plug broken, what part of it, did it melt, what is the
plugs color, did you try a new one just to see what happens or try a
compression test. So post a photo of it, you can tell alot about a
cars overall running condition and age by looking at a plug. A 15 $
compression tester and a new plug will tell you alot.

Nice little chart he

http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingg...colorchart.htm



Ms. April is pretty hot.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:22:36 -0600, Red Green
wrote:

Oren wrote in news48th599bmqtco8fkdbsharahk42tv1t5h@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:28:30 -0800 (PST), ransley
wrote:

Where was the plug broken, what part of it, did it melt, what is the
plugs color, did you try a new one just to see what happens or try a
compression test. So post a photo of it, you can tell alot about a
cars overall running condition and age by looking at a plug. A 15 $
compression tester and a new plug will tell you alot.

Nice little chart he

http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingg...colorchart.htm



Ms. April is pretty hot.

And Ms. June

Oren wrote in news:nldth5l9nipk1s8b3r2lld962rult4l2aq@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:22:36 -0600, Red Green
wrote:

Oren wrote in news48th599bmqtco8fkdbsharahk42tv1t5h@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:28:30 -0800 (PST), ransley
wrote:

Where was the plug broken, what part of it, did it melt, what is the
plugs color, did you try a new one just to see what happens or try a
compression test. So post a photo of it, you can tell alot about a
cars overall running condition and age by looking at a plug. A 15 $
compression tester and a new plug will tell you alot.

Nice little chart he


http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingg...colorchart.htm



Ms. April is pretty hot.

And Ms. June


Couple of real skanks in there too.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:04:40 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Dec 8, 2:42*pm, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?

Worst case is something like:

The timing belt/chain is worn and skipped a tooth (just fixing this
could be a few hundred).
This caused the pistons to hit the valves, damaging the valves, a
spark plug, head, pistons and possibly even rods.
Broken bits of valve and/or spark plug gouged the cylinder walls.


How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:04:40 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Dec 8, 2:42 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug
(assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of
horror which could result from further diagnosis?
Worst case is something like:

The timing belt/chain is worn and skipped a tooth (just fixing this
could be a few hundred).
This caused the pistons to hit the valves, damaging the valves, a
spark plug, head, pistons and possibly even rods.
Broken bits of valve and/or spark plug gouged the cylinder walls.


How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard
of such a thing.

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an
interference design (common on many higher performance and import
vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic
mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).

wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:33:05 -0500, George
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Larry Fishel" wrote in message
...
Unless one of the sparkplugs was changed just before starting it up
that time, that seems unlikely.

You didn't give us very much info about the problem... Was it running
badly or just making noise? Can you describe the noise at all? Are you
mechanically inclined enough to at least remove the spark plugs and
accessory belts and run the starter? That will narrow things way down
with a minimum of effort. (A lot of horrible "engine" noises turn out
to be failed alternators, water pumps, etc...)
Update: She had a nearby mechanic (not the usual one) take a look at the
car. He pulled the plugs and in fact, one WAS broken. That's as far as it
went. He said "No way to determine damage without major teardown - $1500 or
so." Our usual mechanic says "More like $2500 - not worth it for a car with
book value of $3000-ish". The latter guy is probably being cautious and
preparing her for worst case scenario.

What a mess.

You could probably get a guaranteed used engine installed for a lot
less than a rebuild of that one. Find a junkyard that has a low
mileage wreck with rear end damage. Selling and installing the engine
is almost pure profit for them. Negotiate!

Since it is all "profit" where does the money come from for payroll,
rent or building maintenance, heat, electricity, taxes, tools,
equipment, insurance etc?

All those costs exist without doing engine installs. It's gravy for
them. The point is that the materials are pretty close to zero cost.
It's all labor from employees who are on the clock anyway, and might
otherwise have nothing to keep them busy 100% of the time.

Go visit a wrecking yard, and then get back to us with what you
discover.


And the person running such an operation might be called "former
business owner" or even "bankrupt".

I have been to wrecking yards and have never observed employees hanging
around waiting for something to do and I am sure someone paid for the
buildings, tools supplies, maintenance and all of the other stuff that
goes into operating a business and that someone also will pay for the
new tools and supplies that are purchased. Add all of that up and
apportion it and nothing in a business is "zero cost".