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#1
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What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC?
My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. |
#2
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Tony wrote:
What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. If you want it in your house, do it. Who needs you mandating that everyone should have what you want? |
#3
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Tony wrote:
What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. You can always get a wireless light switch. http://www.adhocelectronics.com/Wireless-Light-Switches TDD |
#4
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The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. You can always get a wireless light switch. http://www.adhocelectronics.com/Wireless-Light-Switches TDD Interesting |
#5
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"Tony" wrote in message
What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The NEC is all about safety. Someone dies from an electrical fire or is electrocuted, then they come up with ways to prevent these things from happening again in the future. Since no one has died from walking to the other end of the hall to flip a switch, there is no urgent need to have any rules for that. My pet peeve is no outlets in hallways. Well you need to vacuum the hallway don't you? Anyway you can suggest new rules for the NEC here... http://forums.mikeholt.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 |
#6
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The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. You can always get a wireless light switch. http://www.adhocelectronics.com/Wireless-Light-Switches TDD Reel nice, but a little pricey! |
#7
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Bill wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The NEC is all about safety. Someone dies from an electrical fire or is electrocuted, then they come up with ways to prevent these things from happening again in the future. Since no one has died from walking to the other end of the hall to flip a switch, there is no urgent need to have any rules for that. My pet peeve is no outlets in hallways. Well you need to vacuum the hallway don't you? Anyway you can suggest new rules for the NEC here... http://forums.mikeholt.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 using your line of thinking, then why do they mandate that a room have a switched fixture or outlet? s And i'll bet the code really does require the three (and four) way switches at the different doorways of a room. If you interpret it that way. I believe it says something about being able to turn on a light when you enter a room. |
#8
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Bob F wrote:
Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. If you want it in your house, do it. Who needs you mandating that everyone should have what you want? Because I an the center of the universe and everything should be approved by me. ;-) |
#9
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Bill wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The NEC is all about safety. Someone dies from an electrical fire or is electrocuted, then they come up with ways to prevent these things from happening again in the future. Since no one has died from walking to the other end of the hall to flip a switch, there is no urgent need to have any rules for that. I'll bet at least one person has tripped in the dark and died while going for the light switch at the other side of the room. My pet peeve is no outlets in hallways. Well you need to vacuum the hallway don't you? LOL! I didn't know that (I'm not an electrician) but I always find it awkward when vacuuming in the hallway. At first I always looked for an outlet there. Anyway you can suggest new rules for the NEC here... http://forums.mikeholt.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 |
#10
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![]() "Tony" wrote in message ... Bill wrote: "Tony" wrote in message What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The NEC is all about safety. Someone dies from an electrical fire or is electrocuted, then they come up with ways to prevent these things from happening again in the future. Since no one has died from walking to the other end of the hall to flip a switch, there is no urgent need to have any rules for that. I'll bet at least one person has tripped in the dark and died while going for the light switch at the other side of the room. My pet peeve is no outlets in hallways. Well you need to vacuum the hallway don't you? LOL! I didn't know that (I'm not an electrician) but I always find it awkward when vacuuming in the hallway. At first I always looked for an outlet there. Anyway you can suggest new rules for the NEC here... http://forums.mikeholt.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 The NEC requires an outlet in any hallway 10 feet or longer |
#11
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Tony wrote:
What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. Hi, Main purpose of NEC is for the safety, not some one's convenience. When you build the house, customize to your liking. That's what I do. I never lived in a preowned house. |
#12
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On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:35:58 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. You can always get a wireless light switch. Or wear a mining helmet at all times. :-) |
#13
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LouB wrote in :
The Daring Dufas wrote: Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. You can always get a wireless light switch. http://www.adhocelectronics.com/Wireless-Light-Switches TDD Interesting At a hundred and fifty bucks a pop? Less interesting? |
#14
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On Nov 14, 11:42*am, wrote:
On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:59:53 -0600, Steve Barker wrote: And i'll bet the code really does require the three (and four) way switches at the different doorways of a room. *If you interpret it that way. *I believe it says something about being able to turn on a light when you enter a room. The only place I can think of that requires 3 and 4 way switches is stairways. *You need a switch at any place you can enter the stair well. Generally one at the top and one at the bottom but if there is a landing with an entrance in the middle you need a switch there too. 210.70(A)(2)(c)Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more. * As for rooms, you only need a wall mounted switch ... somewhere. It doesn't even need to be in the room with the light. 210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom. Exception No. 1: *In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets. Note, it says the "outlet" needs to be in the room but it is silent on where the switch is. My in-laws house is built around the den. The den has two doors from the living room and doors to three bedrooms and each has a 3 or 4 way switch that controls the den light. At the doors from the living room the switches are in the living room. There is also a door going to a . 5 bath and it has a switch for the den light there too, never figured that one out. Jimmie |
#15
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on 11/14/2009 8:13 AM (ET) Bill wrote the following:
"Tony" wrote in message What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The NEC is all about safety. Someone dies from an electrical fire or is electrocuted, then they come up with ways to prevent these things from happening again in the future. Since no one has died from walking to the other end of the hall to flip a switch, there is no urgent need to have any rules for that. My pet peeve is no outlets in hallways. Well you need to vacuum the hallway don't you? That's the easiest one to fix. Just install an outlet in the hallway adjacent to one in the adjoining bedroom and tap off that one. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ |
#16
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On Nov 14, 12:07*pm, willshak wrote:
on 11/14/2009 8:13 AM (ET) Bill wrote the following: "Tony" *wrote in message What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. *I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. *There ought-a be a law. The NEC is all about safety. Someone dies from an electrical fire or is electrocuted, then they come up with ways to prevent these things from happening again in the future. Since no one has died from walking to the other end of the hall to flip a switch, there is no urgent need to have any rules for that. My pet peeve is no outlets in hallways. Well you need to vacuum the hallway don't you? That's the easiest one to fix. Just install an outlet in the hallway adjacent to one in the adjoining bedroom and tap off that one. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ My entrance hall didnt have an outlet so I put one in the closet in the hallway where the vacuum is stored. very convenient since that hallway requires the most cleaning. Jimmie |
#17
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Red Green wrote:
LouB wrote in : The Daring Dufas wrote: Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. You can always get a wireless light switch. http://www.adhocelectronics.com/Wireless-Light-Switches TDD Interesting At a hundred and fifty bucks a pop? Less interesting? There are cheaper ones from other manufacturers. TDD |
#18
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Tony wrote:
What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. |
#19
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HeyBub wrote:
Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. -- aem sends... |
#20
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On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:22:49 -0500, in alt.home.repair, aemeijers
wrote: HeyBub wrote: Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. Switch-rated breakers? They must exist. In my youth, many centuries ago, I worked at a gas station where all of the exterior lighting was breaker switched. Being too young to know better I never thought anything of it, but I didn't much like the two breakers that would periodically fall out of the breaker panel when you switched them. -- Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks! |
#21
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![]() wrote in message I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. Switch-rated breakers? They must exist. Yes, they are common in industrial and commercial applications. |
#22
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. Switch-rated breakers? They must exist. Yes, they are common in industrial and commercial applications. Would a guy wiring up a backyard pole barn or private horse stable typically be aware of the difference, and where to get them? The ones I saw looked like normal residential breakers, with no visible markings saying they were switch-rated, or the big heavy-duty appearance and feel industrial stuff seems to have. These were not feeding big blowers or heaters, or massive lights or anything. Just typical barn lights and one or two outside floods. -- aem, always eager to learn, sends.... |
#23
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![]() "aemeijers" wrote in message ... Ed Pawlowski wrote: wrote in message I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. Switch-rated breakers? They must exist. Yes, they are common in industrial and commercial applications. Would a guy wiring up a backyard pole barn or private horse stable typically be aware of the difference, and where to get them? The ones I saw looked like normal residential breakers, with no visible markings saying they were switch-rated, or the big heavy-duty appearance and feel industrial stuff seems to have. These were not feeding big blowers or heaters, or massive lights or anything. Just typical barn lights and one or two outside floods. -- aem, always eager to learn, sends.... The homeowner may not, but any electrician should know about them. Readily available at the supply house. You'd have to pull a breaker and check the model number to be sure of what you have though. |
#25
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Tony wrote:
What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The old way had advantages. A switch inside the front door. Otherwise, a string dangling just above head level in the middle of each room. Less wiring, which meant less installation and maintenance. If a room had two doors and one switch, I'd rather walk a couple of steps in while feeling for a string than cross the room and feel for a wall switch. If you go to bed in a room with a switch at each door and have no bedside lamp, you have to walk to your bed barefoot in the dark. If you have a string dangling in the middle of the room, you can be beside the bed when you turn off the light. You could even tie three strings to the pull chain so you could switch the light from the bed or either door. |
#26
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HeyBub wrote:
Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. many commercial applications just use the breaker panel for light switches. |
#27
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aemeijers wrote:
HeyBub wrote: Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. -- aem sends... what's the obvious reason? Many many commercial buildings are switched that way. s |
#28
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#29
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Steve Barker wrote:
aemeijers wrote: HeyBub wrote: Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. -- aem sends... what's the obvious reason? Many many commercial buildings are switched that way. s Learn something every day on here. I never knew such things existed, and they always used to smack me upside the head for playing with residential-grade breakers, using them as switches. And I distinctly remember threads on here saying not to do so. My construction experience was only residential and apartments, not commercial. -- aem sends... |
#30
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wrote:
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:24:44 GMT, wrote: On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:22:49 -0500, in alt.home.repair, aemeijers wrote: HeyBub wrote: Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. I wonder if there's a mandate for ANY light to have a switch. I remember reading about a bowling alley who, for some reason, wanted to turn off the lights. They couldn't find the switch(es)! In the seven years of the bowling alley's existence, the lights had never been turned off and no one remembered where the switches were. Or if there even were any. I've seen a few pole barns done on the cheap that way, using the breakers as switches. Not recommended, for obvious reasons. Switch-rated breakers? They must exist. Look for SWD molded on the breaker or printed on the label. Most small breakers are SWD (switch rated) Looking at a recent ordinary SquareD QO 20A breaker, the paper label near the wire terminal is marked "SWD". Probably not readable without a magnifying glass. The UL "White Book" (DIVQ) says "circuit breakers rated 50 A or less and 125/250 V or less are investigated for use with tungsten-filament lamp loads." "For use with" is not explicitly the same as for routine switching of. But "SWD" is explicitly for routinely switching fluorescents. Do you need a "SWD" mark for routinely switching incandescents? I thought you did, but the "White Book" doesn't seem so clear. For routine switching of HID lights (mercury, metal halide, high/low pressure sodium) there should be a "HID" mark. I don't remember ever seeing one of them. -- bud-- |
#31
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E Z Peaces wrote:
Tony wrote: What is the dumbest thing you find wrong with the NEC? My pet peeve is the lack of code mandating 3 or 4 way light switches when the room can be entered at opposite ends. I've been here for 5 years and I still instinctively reach for light switches that aren't there. There ought-a be a law. The old way had advantages. A switch inside the front door. Otherwise, a string dangling just above head level in the middle of each room. Less wiring, which meant less installation and maintenance. If a room had two doors and one switch, I'd rather walk a couple of steps in while feeling for a string than cross the room and feel for a wall switch. If you go to bed in a room with a switch at each door and have no bedside lamp, you have to walk to your bed barefoot in the dark. If you have a string dangling in the middle of the room, you can be beside the bed when you turn off the light. You could even tie three strings to the pull chain so you could switch the light from the bed or either door. OK, that's it! I'm running eye hooks and strings to all of the kitchen, bedroom and living room entrances! Pull one string for on and one for off. Now how to mark the strings... I'll go with the 1 and 0 which is becoming popular. Off has a round loop on the string and on has a straight... something, or nothing. |
#32
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![]() "Tony" wrote in message ... OK, that's it! I'm running eye hooks and strings to all of the kitchen, bedroom and living room entrances! Pull one string for on and one for off. Now how to mark the strings... I'll go with the 1 and 0 which is becoming popular. Off has a round loop on the string and on has a straight... something, or nothing. Nope, only need one string to each door. The pill chain ratchets on and off. |
#33
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Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message ... OK, that's it! I'm running eye hooks and strings to all of the kitchen, bedroom and living room entrances! Pull one string for on and one for off. Now how to mark the strings... I'll go with the 1 and 0 which is becoming popular. Off has a round loop on the string and on has a straight... something, or nothing. Nope, only need one string to each door. The pill chain ratchets on and off. My house was wired in the 1920s. Except at the front door, there's no sign that any switch ever had knob & tube wiring, so most switches must have been added later. Some of the switched lights were made with chain switches. Finding places to install switch boxes must have been a problem. Two rooms are switched from outside. The switch in one room is not near any of the three doors. There are no three-way switches. One bedroom still has no wall switch, and I've grown to appreciate it. If you enter a room from a door with no switch, taking two steps and feeling for a string can be easier and safer than crossing the room to find the wall switch. It's a little inelegant because if you touch a string hanging in the dark, you may have to wait for it to swing back to your hand so you can pull it. Inside the back door and at the back entry to the kitchen, I added lights where I would have had to use surface-mount boxes for wall switches. In each case, I used a couple of eye screws to run a string down the wall at a good location. A tied string is easier than a switch to find in the dark, you can work it with your hands full, and you don't get the wall dirty. With another length of string and two more eye screws, I could operate the light from more than one place in the room. This versatility could be useful in a room such as a bedroom, where rearranging furniture could make a new switch location desirable. Chain-pull switches can be practical for ceiling lights. |
#34
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Code is not the best way to build something.
Code is the worst you are allowed to build something. When we were in Europe, most lights had multiple switches. Near as I could tell they were all momentary switches with a change of state relay in the panel. It was very convenient to have a switch at the door to each bedroom, and another one you could reach from the bed. |
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