I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

--
Dell Inspiron
Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz
2 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1

desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

Hi,
Take it out. GFI is not for that kind of application.
Motor creates surge current when starts. It'll trip like that
on and off driving you nuts. Also you don't plug in fridge into
GFI for the same reason.

On Sep 10, 9:14*am, "desgnr" wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

snip

The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI
off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a
20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your
panel.

Joe

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:48:50 -0700 (PDT), Joe wrote:

On Sep 10, 9:14*am, "desgnr" wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

snip

The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI
off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a
20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your
panel.

Joe
That may be true, but the OP said it did NOT trip when the washer was
being used. I recommend the OP pay attention to when it DOES trip.
When the dryer is used? When alother appliance in the house is used?
When the ham radio transmitter in the next room is used? That kind of
investigation should lead to the real solution. It is possible the
GFCI is bad, but it is also very possible it is not. Perhaps another
wiring error incorrectly cross wiring another circuit is the cause.

Also, are there any children around the house who may press the "test"
button?

Pat

wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:48:50 -0700 (PDT), Joe wrote:

On Sep 10, 9:14 am, "desgnr" wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?
snip
The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI
off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a
20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your
panel.

Joe
That may be true, but the OP said it did NOT trip when the washer was
being used. I recommend the OP pay attention to when it DOES trip.
When the dryer is used? When alother appliance in the house is used?
When the ham radio transmitter in the next room is used? That kind of
investigation should lead to the real solution. It is possible the
GFCI is bad, but it is also very possible it is not. Perhaps another
wiring error incorrectly cross wiring another circuit is the cause.

Also, are there any children around the house who may press the "test"
button?

Pat

Hi,
Actually washer and dryer should be fed by different circuit.
20A for washer and 30A for dryer. I'd use GFCI breaker at the panel.

I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my
transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up..

73
/paul W3FIS

desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?


Washers should not be on a gfCi. Actually , nothing with a motor should
be.

wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:32:49 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

Hi,
Take it out. GFI is not for that kind of application.
Motor creates surge current when starts. It'll trip like that
on and off driving you nuts. Also you don't plug in fridge into
GFI for the same reason.

Current code requires a GFCI within 5' of the laundry sink so I hope
you are wrong.

Not if it's a dedicated SINGLE (as opposed to duplex) outlet.

Joe wrote:
On Sep 10, 9:14 am, "desgnr" wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

snip

The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI
off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a
20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your
panel.

Joe

that has nothing to do with it.

On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is
highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne

wrote in message

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:32:49 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with
the GFI outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

Hi,
Take it out. GFI is not for that kind of application.
Motor creates surge current when starts. It'll trip like that
on and off driving you nuts. Also you don't plug in fridge into
GFI for the same reason.

Current code requires a GFCI within 5' of the laundry sink so I hope
you are wrong.

No, he's right. Laundry sink is different situation. They just don't
work on heavy inductive or loads (larger electric motors) for reasons
already stated.

Twayne`

On Sep 10, 2:43*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. *Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. *If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. *Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. *If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. *For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on start-up (when current is
highest), the leakage current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne

While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these
pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge,
freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped
circuit. Too much chance of a momentary unbalance! And they can't all
have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed
fridge compressor units?

GFCI (So called Ground Fault ...... ) operate when there is a 'slight
imbalance' of a few milliamps (thousandths of amps) between the live
and neutral current flow.

During motor starting of any AC induction or other types of motors,
due to capacitance of motor windings to the grounded appliance
framework etc. there 'might' be a momentary slight current unbalance
which is quite normal and OK.

GFCI are designed to protect humans against a fault such as a wire
inside touching the metal frame of an appliance especially in damp/wet
conditions; such as an operating but faulty electric lawn mower, or
electric drill. (But they both have electric motors! So what gives?)
The human touching the defective appliance can provide a path to
ground and get a potentially lethal shock. The faulty path to ground
(through the human) unbalances the current and 'trips' the GFCI for
safety.

Can somebody make a reference to an electrical code that confirms the
above?

In article ,
Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is
highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne

What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge
could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a
trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to
satisfy some pesky device.

On 2009-09-10, Smitty Two wrote:

What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge
could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a
trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to
satisfy some pesky device.

And what are the chances that over those ten years, the motor winding
insulation further degrades, and due to a problem with the EGC the
chassis becomes energized? The consensus opinion, as expressed by the
current NEC (which anyone can make a proposal to modify) is that the
safety risk is larger than the cost of retiring older machinery with
greater than 5 ma leakage current.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2009-09-10, stan wrote:

While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these
pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge,
freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped
circuit.

Again, that is outdated information--current generation GFCIs and
current generation appliances should work together OK. In certain
situations, the 2008 NEC will require a GFCI, e.g. in a kitchen
outside of a dwelling unit, all 120V 20A and 15A receptacles require
GFCI protection, even refrigerators. While in a residential kitchen,
the refrigerator need not be on a GFCI.

And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially
those all-enclosed fridge compressor units?

An appliance will be built to a standard that allows some small amount
of leakage current (there is always a little). Perhaps older
appliances were built to looser standards. Plus in any motor, as the
insulation ages due to the heat generated by using the motor, the
leakage current will increase.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is
highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne

ok, keep putting them on there and keep resetting them. yor choice.

"stan" wrote in message
...
On Sep 10, 2:43 pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on start-up (when current is
highest), the leakage current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne

While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these
pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge,
freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped
circuit. Too much chance of a momentary unbalance! And they can't all
have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed
fridge compressor units?

GFCI (So called Ground Fault ...... ) operate when there is a 'slight
imbalance' of a few milliamps (thousandths of amps) between the live
and neutral current flow.

During motor starting of any AC induction or other types of motors,
due to capacitance of motor windings to the grounded appliance
framework etc. there 'might' be a momentary slight current unbalance
which is quite normal and OK.

GFCI are designed to protect humans against a fault such as a wire
inside touching the metal frame of an appliance especially in damp/wet
conditions; such as an operating but faulty electric lawn mower, or
electric drill. (But they both have electric motors! So what gives?)
The human touching the defective appliance can provide a path to
ground and get a potentially lethal shock. The faulty path to ground
(through the human) unbalances the current and 'trips' the GFCI for
safety.

Can somebody make a reference to an electrical code that confirms the
above?

Section 210.8 of the new code spells it out. As Wayne Whitney points out,
many of the responses are out dated, the new code have very few exceptions
for the GFCI outlets in required areas. If you stick your fridge, or washer
in a garage or unfinished basement, for example, they must be GFCI protected

"desgnr" wrote in message
...
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

--
Dell Inspiron
Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz
2 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1

You probably have a defective GFCI, but it is entirely possible to have a
ground fault in one of the appliances. If your machines are located in an
unfinished basement, a garage, or within six feet of a slop sink, GFCI
protection is required by current code, NO EXCEPTIONS

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:48:50 -0700 (PDT), Joe wrote:

On Sep 10, 9:14 am, "desgnr" wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the
GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?
snip
The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI
off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a
20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your
panel.

Joe
That may be true, but the OP said it did NOT trip when the washer was
being used. I recommend the OP pay attention to when it DOES trip.
When the dryer is used? When alother appliance in the house is used?
When the ham radio transmitter in the next room is used? That kind of
investigation should lead to the real solution. It is possible the
GFCI is bad, but it is also very possible it is not. Perhaps another
wiring error incorrectly cross wiring another circuit is the cause.

Also, are there any children around the house who may press the "test"
button?

Pat

Hi,
Actually washer and dryer should be fed by different circuit.
20A for washer and 30A for dryer. I'd use GFCI breaker at the panel.

I think he's referring to a "gas" dryer

On 9/10/2009 8:37 AM professorpaul spake thus:

I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my
transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up..

73
/paul W3FIS

Remote control, eh?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:46:50 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney
wrote:

the 2008 NEC will require a GFCI, e.g. in a kitchen
outside of a dwelling unit, all 120V 20A and 15A receptacles require
GFCI protection, even refrigerators. While in a residential kitchen,
the refrigerator need not be on a GFCI.

It will be required to be on an AFCI tho and that has 30ma GFCI
protection. That short in your compressor that you have been dealing
with will still trip the AFCI

I don't see anything requiring a dwelling refrigerator, in a kitchen, to be
afci protected. Where are you finding it?

desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

Yes, but I'd check the wiring connections first. Spikes generated by
washer and dryer motors shouldn't normally trip GFIs since they're
allowed to delay tripping to handle nuisances, by as much as ~7
seconds for ~4mA detected leakage. UL standard 943 explains it, for
the low, low price of just $750.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:47:49 -0700 (PDT), stan
wrote:

On Sep 10, 2:43Â*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. Â*Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. Â*If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. Â*Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. Â*If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. Â*For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on start-up (when current is
highest), the leakage current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne

While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these
pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge,
freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped
circuit. Too much chance of a momentary unbalance! And they can't all
have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed
fridge compressor units?

GFCI (So called Ground Fault ...... ) operate when there is a 'slight
imbalance' of a few milliamps (thousandths of amps) between the live
and neutral current flow.

During motor starting of any AC induction or other types of motors,
due to capacitance of motor windings to the grounded appliance
framework etc. there 'might' be a momentary slight current unbalance
which is quite normal and OK.

GFCI are designed to protect humans against a fault such as a wire
inside touching the metal frame of an appliance especially in damp/wet
conditions; such as an operating but faulty electric lawn mower, or
electric drill. (But they both have electric motors! So what gives?)
The human touching the defective appliance can provide a path to
ground and get a potentially lethal shock. The faulty path to ground
(through the human) unbalances the current and 'trips' the GFCI for
safety.

Can somebody make a reference to an electrical code that confirms the
above?

No, but the drill or lawn mower do not have INDUCTION motors. They are
both universal (or in some cases straight DC) motors. Many lawn mowers
are DC motors run through a bridge rectifier.

professorpaul wrote:
I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my
transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up..

73
/paul W3FIS
Hmmm,
Is your SWR low and have good station ground? I have wireless
thermostat, garage door opener, all kind wireless gadgets around house.
If I key my TX nothing happens on any thing.
73,
VE6CGX
HAM since '60

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:17:29 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"desgnr" wrote in message
...
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

--
Dell Inspiron
Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz
2 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1

You probably have a defective GFCI, but it is entirely possible to have a
ground fault in one of the appliances. If your machines are located in an
unfinished basement, a garage, or within six feet of a slop sink, GFCI
protection is required by current code, NO EXCEPTIONS

Any place you could possibly touch a faulty electrical device and a
good ground at the same time.
Therefore, within reach of a sink or shower or a damp concrete floor.

That makes sense - but what of safety grounds? They are there for the
same purpose. Fridges have 3 wire cords. Unlike many "double
insulated" or "polarized" small appliances. And things like hair
driers. If the ONLY thing that can be plugged into a circuit provided
for the fridge is the fridge, I really can't see why they would
REQUIRE a GFCI.

On 9/10/2009 6:38 PM spake thus:

BTW it is strange that you also don't need AFCIs or GFCIs on any
receptacles in the kitchen that don't serve the countertop.
I bet someone plugged that loophole in the 2011. I will have to look
at the ROP when I get a minute. The draft is out too.

As you know, it all ultimately depends on the inspector. A friend of
mine had to install GFCIs in his remodeled kitchen even in some remote
outlets not on the countertop; one was under an island (no sink nearby),
the other was a wall outlet.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:

Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor
should be.

This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is
because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and
neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of
leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma
of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding
insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is
highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma.

Cheers, Wayne
Hi,
In real life leakage current is not the only thing trips GFCI. Ever
measured surge when a motor starts? GFCI being electronic sensor that
surge can trigger it too. I am talking from real life experience.

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, stan wrote:

While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these
pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge,
freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped
circuit.

Again, that is outdated information--current generation GFCIs and
current generation appliances should work together OK. In certain
situations, the 2008 NEC will require a GFCI, e.g. in a kitchen
outside of a dwelling unit, all 120V 20A and 15A receptacles require
GFCI protection, even refrigerators. While in a residential kitchen,
the refrigerator need not be on a GFCI.

Keyword here is OUTSIDE.

And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially
those all-enclosed fridge compressor units?

An appliance will be built to a standard that allows some small amount
of leakage current (there is always a little). Perhaps older
appliances were built to looser standards. Plus in any motor, as the
insulation ages due to the heat generated by using the motor, the
leakage current will increase.

You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about surge(spike)

Cheers, Wayne

On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:

You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about
surge(spike)

A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no
effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:

You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about
surge(spike)

A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no
effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI.

Cheers, Wayne
Hi,
You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does not
stand always. After all I spent half a century working around this kinda
stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world.

On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote:

A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no
effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a
GFCI.

You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does
not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around
this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world.

Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI
unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just
responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to
the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and
have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a
repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote:

A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no
effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a
GFCI.
You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does
not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around
this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world.

Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI
unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just
responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to
the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and
have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a
repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced.

Cheers, Wayne
Hi,
Of course. I can trip GFCI in my house with slight RFI if I want to.
We have to figure out to keep it from false tripping by design
improvement like implementing micro processor or ASIC, I mean using AI
or fuzzy logic?

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote:

A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no
effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a
GFCI.
You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does
not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around
this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world.

Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI
unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just
responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to
the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and
have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a
repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, replaced with a standard outlet if it is feeding a motored appliance.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:17:29 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"desgnr" wrote in message
...
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the
Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

--
Dell Inspiron
Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz
2 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1

You probably have a defective GFCI, but it is entirely possible to have a
ground fault in one of the appliances. If your machines are located in an
unfinished basement, a garage, or within six feet of a slop sink, GFCI
protection is required by current code, NO EXCEPTIONS

Any place you could possibly touch a faulty electrical device and a
good ground at the same time.
Therefore, within reach of a sink or shower or a damp concrete floor.

That makes sense - but what of safety grounds? They are there for the
same purpose. Fridges have 3 wire cords. Unlike many "double
insulated" or "polarized" small appliances. And things like hair
driers. If the ONLY thing that can be plugged into a circuit provided
for the fridge is the fridge, I really can't see why they would
REQUIRE a GFCI.

Agree, or disagree, GFCI protection is required by location, not by
application, and as long as a refrigerator uses a standard plug, anything
that uses a standard plug will go in the same outlet

In article ,
Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2009-09-10, Smitty Two wrote:

What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge
could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a
trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to
satisfy some pesky device.

And what are the chances that over those ten years, the motor winding
insulation further degrades, and due to a problem with the EGC the
chassis becomes energized? The consensus opinion, as expressed by the
current NEC (which anyone can make a proposal to modify) is that the
safety risk is larger than the cost of retiring older machinery with
greater than 5 ma leakage current.

Cheers, Wayne

Safety risk? The "consensus opinion" is a large helping of b.s. Here,
try this little test. Google is famous for returning 475,000 alleged
"hits" on just about any search string. So please link me to a report of
someone who was electrocuted by a leaky motor on a home appliance,
through incidental contact with the chassis. Hell, I'll settle for
someone who was shocked seriously enough to be frightened into a doctor
visit.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:14:00 -0400, "desgnr"
wrote:

I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer.
I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load.
I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI
outlet.
Can it be a defective GFI ?

You don't use a GFI for that application, You make sure you
have it properly grounded.

On Sep 10, 9:17*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/10/2009 8:37 AM professorpaul spake thus:

I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my
transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up..

73
/paul W3FIS

Remote control, eh?

Hi Paul; Something sort of resonant at that frequency eh; wiring is
probably some multiple or sub-multiple of the metres of wavelength
being transmitted? e.g. A quarter wavelength at say 20 metres (14
mhz.) is approx 16 feet!

Also there are so many electronic gadgets around these days; for
example. When I am away my neighbour turns on at night, (and off each
morning) my house lights from across the street, using a 'key-fob'
device (probably around 350 mhz?). But once or twice we have found the
lights switched off; we don't know how; possibly by some radio/taxi
etc. going down the road late at night keying their radio?

Which leads me to a story about a radio amateur who was being checked
out to ensure his equipment was transmitting on only the frequencies
it was supposed to.

It was. And complied completely with the regulatory authority's (FCC
etc.) technical requirements.

The problem was that it was an older housing area with numerous
'dodgy' wiring, older appliances, self hooked up TV sets and what have
you and was these that were picking up the radio signals.

Finally after investigating many of the 'complaints' and recommending
the fixing of many problems, they visited an elderly lady who said;
"Oh yes I often listen in. It's very interesting I can hear his
conversation 'ON MY ELCTRIC HEATER'.

Apparently there was a slight 'bad joint' in one of the connections
which acted as rectifier (just like a crystal set detector), the
coiled heater element was an inductance and the metal frame of the
heater acted as a sound box. It all adding up to a suitable 'receiver'
for waht was a relatively powerful radio signal nearby. She declined
to have anything done to the heater!

Also there were a lot of problems with early TV sets because they
could/would not properly reject signals outside the TV bands. Again no
fault of the radio transmitters.

And I have a cheap hand held, none rechargeable shaver that creates
chaos on any nearby radio! Shouldn't be allowed to be sold in my
opinion!

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2009-09-10, Smitty Two wrote:

What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge
could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a
trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to
satisfy some pesky device.
And what are the chances that over those ten years, the motor winding
insulation further degrades, and due to a problem with the EGC the
chassis becomes energized? The consensus opinion, as expressed by the
current NEC (which anyone can make a proposal to modify) is that the
safety risk is larger than the cost of retiring older machinery with
greater than 5 ma leakage current.

Cheers, Wayne

Safety risk? The "consensus opinion" is a large helping of b.s. Here,
try this little test. Google is famous for returning 475,000 alleged
"hits" on just about any search string. So please link me to a report of
someone who was electrocuted by a leaky motor on a home appliance,
through incidental contact with the chassis. Hell, I'll settle for
someone who was shocked seriously enough to be frightened into a doctor
visit.

The requirement for refrigerators and freezers in commercial kitchens to
be GFCI protected was because of shocks that occurred when they weren't
GFCI protected (presumably involving a refrigerator problem and faulty
grounding).


Virtually all the exceptions to requirements for GFCI protection (like
refrigerator in garage) were removed from the 2008 NEC. A couple
arguments we
"The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard."
and
"The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."

--
bud--

On 2009-09-11, Steve Barker wrote:

Wayne Whitney wrote:

The sensing coil in the particular GFCI unit may be slightly out
of balance, so that instead of just responding to the differential
current, it responds very slightly to the total current. Or the
appliance may have a small ground fault and have excessive leakage
current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a repated basis,
something is defective and should be replaced.

Yes, replaced with a standard outlet if it is feeding a motored
appliance.

If the appliance is tripping a non-defective GFCI, then it is
measurably less safe than an appliance which does not trip a GFCI. So
if the receptacle location is not required to have a GFCI under the
NEC, and you don't mind the extra safety risk, go ahead and do that.

Cheers, Wayne

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com
On 9/10/2009 6:38 PM spake thus:

BTW it is strange that you also don't need AFCIs or GFCIs on any
receptacles in the kitchen that don't serve the countertop.
I bet someone plugged that loophole in the 2011. I will have to look
at the ROP when I get a minute. The draft is out too.

As you know, it all ultimately depends on the inspector. A friend of
mine had to install GFCIs in his remodeled kitchen even in some remote
outlets not on the countertop; one was under an island (no sink
nearby), the other was a wall outlet.

It only depends on the inspector within the realm of the requirements.
He can not unilaterally allow or disallow anything that is specced in
either the NEC, NFPA or local code ordnances etc.. GFCI's are either
required in some locatiosn or they are not. Any inspector who sees it
otherwise should be reported so he can be removed from his job. The
inspector is NEVER the one who interprets the code: that's why there are
committees to decide/implement local requirements and even those must
still be done within the confines of the NEC etc. NEC, NFPA and so on
are MINIMUM requirements and often locall communities will clarify or
add to those requirements, but they cannot remove an NEC requirement
for, say, 3-prong receptacles or anything else. They can only ADD TO the
NEC per its permitted modifications statements.

HTH,

Twayne`