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GFI Outlet
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer.
Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? -- Dell Inspiron Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz 2 GB DDR2 SDRAM Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 |
GFI Outlet
desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? Hi, Take it out. GFI is not for that kind of application. Motor creates surge current when starts. It'll trip like that on and off driving you nuts. Also you don't plug in fridge into GFI for the same reason. |
GFI Outlet
On Sep 10, 9:14*am, "desgnr" wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? snip The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a 20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your panel. Joe |
GFI Outlet
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:48:50 -0700 (PDT), Joe wrote:
On Sep 10, 9:14*am, "desgnr" wrote: I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? snip The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a 20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your panel. Joe That may be true, but the OP said it did NOT trip when the washer was being used. I recommend the OP pay attention to when it DOES trip. When the dryer is used? When alother appliance in the house is used? When the ham radio transmitter in the next room is used? That kind of investigation should lead to the real solution. It is possible the GFCI is bad, but it is also very possible it is not. Perhaps another wiring error incorrectly cross wiring another circuit is the cause. Also, are there any children around the house who may press the "test" button? Pat |
GFI Outlet
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GFI Outlet
I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my
transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up.. 73 /paul W3FIS |
GFI Outlet
desgnr wrote:
I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? Washers should not be on a gfCi. Actually , nothing with a motor should be. |
GFI Outlet
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GFI Outlet
Joe wrote:
On Sep 10, 9:14 am, "desgnr" wrote: I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? snip The appliances should be on a 20A circuit. If you grabbed a 15A GFI off the shelf it will trip on every motor surge. Better stick with a 20A receptacle (look for the T-shaped slot) and use a AFCI in your panel. Joe that has nothing to do with it. |
GFI Outlet
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote:
Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
wrote in message
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:32:49 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote: desgnr wrote: I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? Hi, Take it out. GFI is not for that kind of application. Motor creates surge current when starts. It'll trip like that on and off driving you nuts. Also you don't plug in fridge into GFI for the same reason. Current code requires a GFCI within 5' of the laundry sink so I hope you are wrong. No, he's right. Laundry sink is different situation. They just don't work on heavy inductive or loads (larger electric motors) for reasons already stated. Twayne` |
GFI Outlet
On Sep 10, 2:43*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote: Washers should not be on a gfci. *Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. *If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. *Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. *If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. *For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on start-up (when current is highest), the leakage current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge, freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped circuit. Too much chance of a momentary unbalance! And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed fridge compressor units? GFCI (So called Ground Fault ...... ) operate when there is a 'slight imbalance' of a few milliamps (thousandths of amps) between the live and neutral current flow. During motor starting of any AC induction or other types of motors, due to capacitance of motor windings to the grounded appliance framework etc. there 'might' be a momentary slight current unbalance which is quite normal and OK. GFCI are designed to protect humans against a fault such as a wire inside touching the metal frame of an appliance especially in damp/wet conditions; such as an operating but faulty electric lawn mower, or electric drill. (But they both have electric motors! So what gives?) The human touching the defective appliance can provide a path to ground and get a potentially lethal shock. The faulty path to ground (through the human) unbalances the current and 'trips' the GFCI for safety. Can somebody make a reference to an electrical code that confirms the above? |
GFI Outlet
In article ,
Wayne Whitney wrote: On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote: Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to satisfy some pesky device. |
GFI Outlet
On 2009-09-10, Smitty Two wrote:
What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to satisfy some pesky device. And what are the chances that over those ten years, the motor winding insulation further degrades, and due to a problem with the EGC the chassis becomes energized? The consensus opinion, as expressed by the current NEC (which anyone can make a proposal to modify) is that the safety risk is larger than the cost of retiring older machinery with greater than 5 ma leakage current. Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
On 2009-09-10, stan wrote:
While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge, freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped circuit. Again, that is outdated information--current generation GFCIs and current generation appliances should work together OK. In certain situations, the 2008 NEC will require a GFCI, e.g. in a kitchen outside of a dwelling unit, all 120V 20A and 15A receptacles require GFCI protection, even refrigerators. While in a residential kitchen, the refrigerator need not be on a GFCI. And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed fridge compressor units? An appliance will be built to a standard that allows some small amount of leakage current (there is always a little). Perhaps older appliances were built to looser standards. Plus in any motor, as the insulation ages due to the heat generated by using the motor, the leakage current will increase. Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote: Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne ok, keep putting them on there and keep resetting them. yor choice. |
GFI Outlet
"stan" wrote in message ... On Sep 10, 2:43 pm, Wayne Whitney wrote: On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote: Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on start-up (when current is highest), the leakage current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge, freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped circuit. Too much chance of a momentary unbalance! And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed fridge compressor units? GFCI (So called Ground Fault ...... ) operate when there is a 'slight imbalance' of a few milliamps (thousandths of amps) between the live and neutral current flow. During motor starting of any AC induction or other types of motors, due to capacitance of motor windings to the grounded appliance framework etc. there 'might' be a momentary slight current unbalance which is quite normal and OK. GFCI are designed to protect humans against a fault such as a wire inside touching the metal frame of an appliance especially in damp/wet conditions; such as an operating but faulty electric lawn mower, or electric drill. (But they both have electric motors! So what gives?) The human touching the defective appliance can provide a path to ground and get a potentially lethal shock. The faulty path to ground (through the human) unbalances the current and 'trips' the GFCI for safety. Can somebody make a reference to an electrical code that confirms the above? Section 210.8 of the new code spells it out. As Wayne Whitney points out, many of the responses are out dated, the new code have very few exceptions for the GFCI outlets in required areas. If you stick your fridge, or washer in a garage or unfinished basement, for example, they must be GFCI protected |
GFI Outlet
"desgnr" wrote in message ... I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? -- Dell Inspiron Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz 2 GB DDR2 SDRAM Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 You probably have a defective GFCI, but it is entirely possible to have a ground fault in one of the appliances. If your machines are located in an unfinished basement, a garage, or within six feet of a slop sink, GFCI protection is required by current code, NO EXCEPTIONS |
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On 9/10/2009 8:37 AM professorpaul spake thus:
I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up.. 73 /paul W3FIS Remote control, eh? -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
GFI Outlet
wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:46:50 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney wrote: the 2008 NEC will require a GFCI, e.g. in a kitchen outside of a dwelling unit, all 120V 20A and 15A receptacles require GFCI protection, even refrigerators. While in a residential kitchen, the refrigerator need not be on a GFCI. It will be required to be on an AFCI tho and that has 30ma GFCI protection. That short in your compressor that you have been dealing with will still trip the AFCI I don't see anything requiring a dwelling refrigerator, in a kitchen, to be afci protected. Where are you finding it? |
GFI Outlet
desgnr wrote: I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? Yes, but I'd check the wiring connections first. Spikes generated by washer and dryer motors shouldn't normally trip GFIs since they're allowed to delay tripping to handle nuisances, by as much as ~7 seconds for ~4mA detected leakage. UL standard 943 explains it, for the low, low price of just $750. |
GFI Outlet
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:47:49 -0700 (PDT), stan
wrote: On Sep 10, 2:43Â*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote: On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote: Washers should not be on a gfci. Â*Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. Â*If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. Â*Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. Â*If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. Â*For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on start-up (when current is highest), the leakage current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge, freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped circuit. Too much chance of a momentary unbalance! And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed fridge compressor units? GFCI (So called Ground Fault ...... ) operate when there is a 'slight imbalance' of a few milliamps (thousandths of amps) between the live and neutral current flow. During motor starting of any AC induction or other types of motors, due to capacitance of motor windings to the grounded appliance framework etc. there 'might' be a momentary slight current unbalance which is quite normal and OK. GFCI are designed to protect humans against a fault such as a wire inside touching the metal frame of an appliance especially in damp/wet conditions; such as an operating but faulty electric lawn mower, or electric drill. (But they both have electric motors! So what gives?) The human touching the defective appliance can provide a path to ground and get a potentially lethal shock. The faulty path to ground (through the human) unbalances the current and 'trips' the GFCI for safety. Can somebody make a reference to an electrical code that confirms the above? No, but the drill or lawn mower do not have INDUCTION motors. They are both universal (or in some cases straight DC) motors. Many lawn mowers are DC motors run through a bridge rectifier. |
GFI Outlet
professorpaul wrote:
I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up.. 73 /paul W3FIS Hmmm, Is your SWR low and have good station ground? I have wireless thermostat, garage door opener, all kind wireless gadgets around house. If I key my TX nothing happens on any thing. 73, VE6CGX HAM since '60 |
GFI Outlet
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:17:29 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"desgnr" wrote in message ... I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? -- Dell Inspiron Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz 2 GB DDR2 SDRAM Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 You probably have a defective GFCI, but it is entirely possible to have a ground fault in one of the appliances. If your machines are located in an unfinished basement, a garage, or within six feet of a slop sink, GFCI protection is required by current code, NO EXCEPTIONS Any place you could possibly touch a faulty electrical device and a good ground at the same time. Therefore, within reach of a sink or shower or a damp concrete floor. That makes sense - but what of safety grounds? They are there for the same purpose. Fridges have 3 wire cords. Unlike many "double insulated" or "polarized" small appliances. And things like hair driers. If the ONLY thing that can be plugged into a circuit provided for the fridge is the fridge, I really can't see why they would REQUIRE a GFCI. |
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GFI Outlet
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, Steve Barker wrote: Washers should not be on a gfci. Actually, nothing with a motor should be. This is out of date information. If a non-defective GFCI trips, it is because there is over 5ma of current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. Any appliance should have way less than 5ma of leakage from hot to ground, even motors. If an appliance has over 5ma of leakage current, it's defective. For example, the motor winding insulation may be degraded, so that on startup (when current is highest), the leakge current exceeds 5ma. Cheers, Wayne Hi, In real life leakage current is not the only thing trips GFCI. Ever measured surge when a motor starts? GFCI being electronic sensor that surge can trigger it too. I am talking from real life experience. |
GFI Outlet
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-10, stan wrote: While this may be true it has frequently been mentioned here on these pages that any 115 volt motor equipped domestic appliance, fridge, freezer, washer etc. should NOT be plugged into a GFCI equipped circuit. Again, that is outdated information--current generation GFCIs and current generation appliances should work together OK. In certain situations, the 2008 NEC will require a GFCI, e.g. in a kitchen outside of a dwelling unit, all 120V 20A and 15A receptacles require GFCI protection, even refrigerators. While in a residential kitchen, the refrigerator need not be on a GFCI. Keyword here is OUTSIDE. And they can't all have defective winding insualtion? Especially those all-enclosed fridge compressor units? An appliance will be built to a standard that allows some small amount of leakage current (there is always a little). Perhaps older appliances were built to looser standards. Plus in any motor, as the insulation ages due to the heat generated by using the motor, the leakage current will increase. You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about surge(spike) Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:
You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about surge(spike) A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI. Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote: You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about surge(spike) A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI. Cheers, Wayne Hi, You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world. |
GFI Outlet
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote: A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI. You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world. Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced. Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote: Wayne Whitney wrote: A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI. You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world. Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced. Cheers, Wayne Hi, Of course. I can trip GFCI in my house with slight RFI if I want to. We have to figure out to keep it from false tripping by design improvement like implementing micro processor or ASIC, I mean using AI or fuzzy logic? |
GFI Outlet
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Tony Hwang wrote: Wayne Whitney wrote: A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI. You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world. Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced. Cheers, Wayne Yes, replaced with a standard outlet if it is feeding a motored appliance. |
GFI Outlet
wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:17:29 -0400, "RBM" wrote: "desgnr" wrote in message ... I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? -- Dell Inspiron Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz 2 GB DDR2 SDRAM Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 You probably have a defective GFCI, but it is entirely possible to have a ground fault in one of the appliances. If your machines are located in an unfinished basement, a garage, or within six feet of a slop sink, GFCI protection is required by current code, NO EXCEPTIONS Any place you could possibly touch a faulty electrical device and a good ground at the same time. Therefore, within reach of a sink or shower or a damp concrete floor. That makes sense - but what of safety grounds? They are there for the same purpose. Fridges have 3 wire cords. Unlike many "double insulated" or "polarized" small appliances. And things like hair driers. If the ONLY thing that can be plugged into a circuit provided for the fridge is the fridge, I really can't see why they would REQUIRE a GFCI. Agree, or disagree, GFCI protection is required by location, not by application, and as long as a refrigerator uses a standard plug, anything that uses a standard plug will go in the same outlet |
GFI Outlet
In article ,
Wayne Whitney wrote: On 2009-09-10, Smitty Two wrote: What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to satisfy some pesky device. And what are the chances that over those ten years, the motor winding insulation further degrades, and due to a problem with the EGC the chassis becomes energized? The consensus opinion, as expressed by the current NEC (which anyone can make a proposal to modify) is that the safety risk is larger than the cost of retiring older machinery with greater than 5 ma leakage current. Cheers, Wayne Safety risk? The "consensus opinion" is a large helping of b.s. Here, try this little test. Google is famous for returning 475,000 alleged "hits" on just about any search string. So please link me to a report of someone who was electrocuted by a leaky motor on a home appliance, through incidental contact with the chassis. Hell, I'll settle for someone who was shocked seriously enough to be frightened into a doctor visit. |
GFI Outlet
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:14:00 -0400, "desgnr"
wrote: I just installed a GFI outlet for my Washer & Dryer. Twice in the last week the outlet was tripped when i went to use the Washer. I pushed the Reset & it worked fine for the whole load. I never had any problems with the Regular outlet i replaced with the GFI outlet. Can it be a defective GFI ? You don't use a GFI for that application, You make sure you have it properly grounded. |
GFI Outlet
On Sep 10, 9:17*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/10/2009 8:37 AM professorpaul spake thus: I can get my wife's china closet "puck" lights to go on when I key my transmitter. Also causes the paper shredder to fire up.. 73 /paul W3FIS Remote control, eh? Hi Paul; Something sort of resonant at that frequency eh; wiring is probably some multiple or sub-multiple of the metres of wavelength being transmitted? e.g. A quarter wavelength at say 20 metres (14 mhz.) is approx 16 feet! Also there are so many electronic gadgets around these days; for example. When I am away my neighbour turns on at night, (and off each morning) my house lights from across the street, using a 'key-fob' device (probably around 350 mhz?). But once or twice we have found the lights switched off; we don't know how; possibly by some radio/taxi etc. going down the road late at night keying their radio? Which leads me to a story about a radio amateur who was being checked out to ensure his equipment was transmitting on only the frequencies it was supposed to. It was. And complied completely with the regulatory authority's (FCC etc.) technical requirements. The problem was that it was an older housing area with numerous 'dodgy' wiring, older appliances, self hooked up TV sets and what have you and was these that were picking up the radio signals. Finally after investigating many of the 'complaints' and recommending the fixing of many problems, they visited an elderly lady who said; "Oh yes I often listen in. It's very interesting I can hear his conversation 'ON MY ELCTRIC HEATER'. Apparently there was a slight 'bad joint' in one of the connections which acted as rectifier (just like a crystal set detector), the coiled heater element was an inductance and the metal frame of the heater acted as a sound box. It all adding up to a suitable 'receiver' for waht was a relatively powerful radio signal nearby. She declined to have anything done to the heater! Also there were a lot of problems with early TV sets because they could/would not properly reject signals outside the TV bands. Again no fault of the radio transmitters. And I have a cheap hand held, none rechargeable shaver that creates chaos on any nearby radio! Shouldn't be allowed to be sold in my opinion! |
GFI Outlet
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , Wayne Whitney wrote: On 2009-09-10, Smitty Two wrote: What are the chances that an older motor on a washing machine or fridge could have another ten years of robust life on it, but still have a trickle of leakage current? I'd not replace an appliance motor just to satisfy some pesky device. And what are the chances that over those ten years, the motor winding insulation further degrades, and due to a problem with the EGC the chassis becomes energized? The consensus opinion, as expressed by the current NEC (which anyone can make a proposal to modify) is that the safety risk is larger than the cost of retiring older machinery with greater than 5 ma leakage current. Cheers, Wayne Safety risk? The "consensus opinion" is a large helping of b.s. Here, try this little test. Google is famous for returning 475,000 alleged "hits" on just about any search string. So please link me to a report of someone who was electrocuted by a leaky motor on a home appliance, through incidental contact with the chassis. Hell, I'll settle for someone who was shocked seriously enough to be frightened into a doctor visit. The requirement for refrigerators and freezers in commercial kitchens to be GFCI protected was because of shocks that occurred when they weren't GFCI protected (presumably involving a refrigerator problem and faulty grounding). Virtually all the exceptions to requirements for GFCI protection (like refrigerator in garage) were removed from the 2008 NEC. A couple arguments we "The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6 ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard." and "The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of 'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices." -- bud-- |
GFI Outlet
On 2009-09-11, Steve Barker wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote: The sensing coil in the particular GFCI unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced. Yes, replaced with a standard outlet if it is feeding a motored appliance. If the appliance is tripping a non-defective GFCI, then it is measurably less safe than an appliance which does not trip a GFCI. So if the receptacle location is not required to have a GFCI under the NEC, and you don't mind the extra safety risk, go ahead and do that. Cheers, Wayne |
GFI Outlet
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com On 9/10/2009 6:38 PM spake thus: BTW it is strange that you also don't need AFCIs or GFCIs on any receptacles in the kitchen that don't serve the countertop. I bet someone plugged that loophole in the 2011. I will have to look at the ROP when I get a minute. The draft is out too. As you know, it all ultimately depends on the inspector. A friend of mine had to install GFCIs in his remodeled kitchen even in some remote outlets not on the countertop; one was under an island (no sink nearby), the other was a wall outlet. It only depends on the inspector within the realm of the requirements. He can not unilaterally allow or disallow anything that is specced in either the NEC, NFPA or local code ordnances etc.. GFCI's are either required in some locatiosn or they are not. Any inspector who sees it otherwise should be reported so he can be removed from his job. The inspector is NEVER the one who interprets the code: that's why there are committees to decide/implement local requirements and even those must still be done within the confines of the NEC etc. NEC, NFPA and so on are MINIMUM requirements and often locall communities will clarify or add to those requirements, but they cannot remove an NEC requirement for, say, 3-prong receptacles or anything else. They can only ADD TO the NEC per its permitted modifications statements. HTH, Twayne` |
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